But, if it's just a myth, why are there people out there (like myself) whose experience tells them that the durability/reliability of the Japanese brands really does live up to their reputation? I've a plenty of imports, and not one of them has disappointed me in the least. And I KNOW I am not the only one, it isn't just dumb luck.
People keep looking for the magic reason the big 3 loose share, but it's simply more cars to choose from, same amount of people, it can only go in one direction.
On the surface your argument seems correct, but if you look deeper it falls apart. According to your argument there are now more companies and they are splitting the same pie into more pieces, so each piece is smaller. That is why GM and Ford are loosing market share, because the same pie is split into more, but smaller pieces.
Lets see if facts support your argument. Chryslers market share in 1992 was 13% and now in 2005 its same 13%. Why did Chrysler not loose any market share? If every body is getting a smaller piece of the pie, Chryslers share should also go down. It did not change in 13 years.
Why does Honda and Toyota continue to increase their market share in USA. According to your argument Toyota and Honda's market share should also decline, but it continues to increase. You see now how your theory is completely false.
What is happening is that Toyota and Honda are simply walking away with GM's and Ford's customers. Lets face it, Toyota builds a better Buick then GM.
Here is one fact that nobody can argue with. If GM and Ford are loosing market share, then it means that current GM and Ford's customers don't want to purchase a GM of Ford car again. You must wonder why there are so many unhappy GM and Ford customers that they are not buying from the same company again. You must wonder why Toyota and Honda have loyal customers and Ford and GM have customers who don't want to deal with the company again. The reason why GM and Ford are loosing market share is because their current customers don't want to deal with these companies again.
You, rorr, are correct, its not so simple (I had to dumb it down for some posters), but the essential idea is the same. Do we want our economy to have the elements it needs to continue solid growth and developing jobs or do we let the money go overseas and be at the mercy of their politics and investment policies, it never is equal treatment and there is no redo when it comes to trade/commerce. Whatever changes the dynamics, like cheap chinese products being brought in by Walmart, can have a far reaching affect that most people can't comprehend or don't understand. But when it affects their jobs or business then it really hits home and this is one of those issues........
Yes , but i made a comment earlier about GM winning gold,silver , bronze, a clean sweap from JD power in initial plant quality, is this not also "real and quantifiable"?
You don't buy a factory, you buy a car. And not every GM product is built at one of those better factories. Consider the possibility that the cars not built at those factories might be worse than their competitors.
As we see from the initial JD Power data, the Cobalt lags its competitors. If you were at the helm of GM, what would you do about it? Would you blame the customer, or would you try to change and improve the car to please the customer?
"As we see from the initial JD Power data, the Cobalt lags its competitors. If you were at the helm of GM, what would you do about it? Would you blame the customer, or would you try to change and improve the car to please the customer?"
Real life experience tells all does it not, you should stick with what your buying if your happy. I'm a pontiac person, had far fewer probs than my friends with japanese cars, and i won't even comment on my neighbours volkswagon............... Look back at my post in regards to my aunt, she bought not on real life experience, or any researched fact but on heresay (myth), she has money to spend, complains of the camry being to small, but chose it because of heresay, why not the Ford crown vic (winner of JD power gold award 3 years) that has facts behind it? Buy what you think is best by all means, i just think if people went with fact, not what their buddy told them after watching "fast and furious", it might be a bit different. Hype sells, not data.
"Here is one fact that nobody can argue with. If GM and Ford are loosing market share, then it means that current GM and Ford's customers don't want to purchase a GM of Ford car again."
Very good point, and one we often forget. We argue a lot about why people keep buying Toyotas, but what's worse is that longtime GM and Ford owners are choosing to buy Toyotas and Hyundais. Now; at a time when the quality gap is said to be small. Ask them for their reasons.
Just so you know and every here whose being around knows, I am a Honda/Acura man, but I believe we need to look at the future as GM, Ford and maybe even Chrysler disappear along with many other American jobs. We have to ask ourselves, is this what we want and what does it mean for business and jobs in America. That is my whole point and you dont have the even tiniest idea what it is about....
what a comment!!!!!!!!!!!! No you don't buy a factory, but in order for a factory to win a quality award, they must build quality, and you are buying what they build.......quality. why do people use JD power to knock GM , and praise the Japanese, but when GM wins it does not count?? once again , bias perception. i gotta go build cars now, Gm ones and Suzuki's, funny, does the suzuki have better quality that goes down the line, it does have a Japanese name ya know...........
Just so you know and every here whose being around knows, I am a Honda/Acura man, but I believe we need to look at the future as GM, Ford and maybe even Chrysler disappear along with many other American jobs. We have to ask ourselves, is this what we want and what does it mean for business and jobs in America. That is my whole point and you dont have the even tiniest idea what it is about....
I don't hear music, but you keep dancing.
So, if your goal is job preservation (which is fair enough), I guess you would prefer that Americans looking for a sedan buy a US-made Accord rather than a Mexican-made Fusion?
I'm trying to see how you expect the average consumer to put your philosophy into action, and you have squandered your opportunity to answer that question. Instead of talking about pizza and Chinese food, why don't you tell us whether it's better to buy a Fusion or an Accord?
You have wasted our time but I'll give you the rope and see what you do, but what does it matter if I say Ford Mustang, you will bad mouth any choice because your comprehension is too small to see beyond the latest ad in GQ or your favourite Cosmo magazine.....
Well, at least you've actually made a reference to a car. But you still haven't answered my question.
Let's suppose somebody reading this thread wants a four-door midsize sedan, ala Ford Fusion, Honda Accord, Toyota Camry, etc. Which cars in this class are OK with you, which ones aren't, and what criteria did you use for choosing those that you'd recommend?
This is a car forum. If you really meant what you said, you'd try to persuade a potential "import" buyer to buy a "domestic" car. So tell us which ones those are.
So, your priority isn't with US jobs, as you implied earlier? Because Ford spent US dollars in Mexico to create jobs for Mexicans, instead of building or expanding a plant in the US where they could have hired Americans. So who creates more US employment in this scenario, Honda with its plant in Ohio, Toyota with its facility in Kentucky or Ford with all these great new jobs in Mexico?
Building the plant in Hermisillo also benefits the stockholders of Ford, which include the English Barclays Bank and the German Deutsche Bank. (You did mention foreign banks before, remember?) Should they be forced to sell their stock to keep their dividend payments in the US and out of Europe? Or is there some amount of the company and profits that the "foreigners" should be allowed to take?
I didn't just ask for the name of a car, but your criteria for choosing it. If your goal was to increase US employment, I'd say that you chose badly, but perhaps you simply don't care about the jobs as much as you had claimed earlier in the thread.
She bought a Camry built in kentucky, great! Support the US auto industry...
My question though is what did she have in the past? Surely something must have sparked the comment? The Camry has been a pinnacle of reliability and durability long before 2006. Why choose it now?
"Ford crown vic (winner of JD power gold award 3 years)"
Gotta laugh at this one: A Crown Vic!!!
Anyone in their right mind knows a Crown Vic is a beast. A rear drive, lost in the 80's, Body on frame beast. A Camry offers 100X the sophistication and shear drivability to the Vic. Quality of materials, switchgear, assembly all excel over the the CV IMO.
Sure the Ford is more durable, if you are used to pulling "Streets of Sanfansisco" launches with the thing. But I wouldn't call it a "Quality piece" over a Camry...
You see, the car doesnt matter, its the principle of supporting fellow Americans who are loosing American jobs as American business's are driven into bancruptcy. We need to stop and think, can we affect that trend, are we able to make a change that would help grow future jobs and our economy, can I look beyound my selfish desires....
If the answer is no, then we have to face the future as Americans subservient to a foreign power, other nations like China and Japan will decide our future and call the shots as we loose our manufacturing and heavy industries, along with banking and financial houses as the money leaves our shores.
I'm sure the irony will not be lost on the last owners, the American Indians who were bought out for a few trinkets at Manhattan, while we got bought out for a few trinkets at Walmart....... :surprise:
"We have to ask ourselves, is this what we want and what does it mean for business and jobs in America."
What it means is the competition is getting fierce. As a consumer, I am going to vote with my dollars and there is nothing wrong if I make it a Home-Grown Import. As it stands, domestics need to step up or get out of the way.
You see, the car doesnt matter, its the principle of supporting fellow Americans who are loosing American jobs as American business's are driven into bancruptcy.
Of course, the car matters. This is a car forum.
Your choice of the Fusion produces fewer jobs for Americans than the Accord or Camry. You might want to think about whether you've really sorted through this issue, as the thread title asks you to do.
why do people use JD power to knock GM , and praise the Japanese, but when GM wins it does not count??
Because consumers have the choice to park Cobalts or Corollas in their garages. They don't own the plant, remember?
You never answered my question, either -- obviously, JD Power found that owners of Cobalts are less satisfied than those who bought Corollas and Civics. Do you think someone at GM should be concerned about this, or doesn't it matter what someone who spends thousands of dollars on a car may have some regrets about his purchase?
Well I can see some have made the choice, its me first and America and its ideals can go to the wayside, and if we have to work at Chinese, Japanese, or Korean factories and boses so be it. We wont mind bowing and being told what slow and lazy workers we are since we dont do weekends and our pay will be cut so we can price below the competition, after all, its the new America, enjoy your stay......
if we have to work at Chinese, Japanese, or Korean factories and boses so be it. We wont mind bowing and being told what slow and lazy workers
you watch way too much TV.
did you know the CEO of Nissan is from Brazil? And somebody told you Chrysler is owned by a German company, right? A man by the name of Finbarr J O'Neill served as the CEO of Hyundai and the CEO and cochairman of Mitsubishi. Global economy!
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
i already do work weekends ... and i work for a HUGE flag-wavin american company.
Oh, and to nip this is the bud ... no, my company is not open on the weekends, so its not mandated I work those hours. Nor do we have foreign competition we are trying to keep up with.
Plus, I get paid the same (salary) whether I put in those hours or not. But my work ethic compels me to do the best I can, at any cost, so i work weekends and nights when the work warrants it. Too bad more people weren't raised that way.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Ideals? Hey, I am a proud American, hard working and I am not going to throw my money out their for the sake of Patriotism.
Hey, I spent 3 weeks in the UK last summer, spent probably 10 grand on the entire trip. Should I be blasted for not taking the same vacation to Cannon Falls, Minnesota and spending my money there watching Cattle being herded? Put 40 bucks in gas into the wifes MDX last night. Middle Eastern oil, but I bet it benefitted some oil monger in Texas somewhere along the line. Is that unpatriotic?
No more than buying a Honda Accord with 70% of its parts obtained from the good ol US of A. That is the point of this thread. Be scared all you want, but the US auto industry is not going anywhere. And I HIGHLY doubt going back to 90% domestic market share would be beneficial to the country. Competition is good, second rate effort doesn't cut it in Todays market.
U.S. Defense contracts abound here. 40 hour work week, weekends off, no different than the advanced plastics industry (Door and window seals ) I worked in before.
Our company is healthy as a horse. Our customers are all U.S. based.
Interesting series of discussions. No one has addressed why the American cars are not as good as the imports. If you really believe in Capitalism, the only consideration for purchasing a vehicle is value. Nor price, but value. If some people still but domestic cars because of the name on the bumper, the domestic car makers do not need to compete, so they won't. What has happened is that true Capitalism has reared its ugly head and all car manufacturers are competing on nearly equal terms. Previously, xenophobia was working for the domestics and against the imports, but now the field is much more balanced. The domestics are not used to this and can't compete. Maybe part of the reason that Chrysler is more successful that GM or Ford is that they are not a true domestic any more and realized earlier that they had to compete a little harder? So when Ford and GM move all of their manufacturing to Mexico or Canada and Honda and Toyota are made in the US, how will things be for Ford and GM?
And if you're a Workers' Revolution sorta guy, then you're not going to support nationalist purchasing practices either. State-before-individuals is well, fascist, to use the technically correct term.
GM and Ford cars are perceived as not as "good" because they lag DaimlerChrysler, BMW, Audi, Toyota, and other manufacturers in several key areas: technology and innovation, long-term reliability (value and cost of ownership), and design. With few exceptions, both bow tie and big oval has done little to reward their shareholders and customers with innovative, heart-pounding rides that become the icons of the next generation. Lay the blame at the desk of Lutz and Ford.
In my humble opinion, the bigger and obvious point in this forum is that there is no such thing as an American car. With car parts and assembly plants all over the world, we just buy the best car we can afford.
What's at stake here are the brands. Perhaps we should ask, why buy from GM or Ford? What do these brands mean or represent? As both brands attempt to find success by building nostalgia cars, I can't help but think that the best of both brands are past them. I predict in the next 10 years, both brands will no longer be independent. Perhaps Toyota will buy GM or Ford. I certainly will not.
The trouble with GM and Ford is that many people who've bought their cars all their lives are dumping them for different brands. The trend is that people with recent domestics are buying Toyotas and Hyundais... it's not because they're import lovers (yet), so why?
Their friends ask that question, and the process repeats itself.
rayng hits on a good point about brands. GM & Ford have canabalized themselves for so long on this re-branding engineering that has led to this slow death spiral. Their hulking size is killing them. It's much like the lifecycle of a big dog which generally dies sooner than a smaller dog. GM hasn't been able to focus it's development anywhere because they had so many brands. IMHO Buick has got to go now and maybe redefine & combine Chevy/Pontiac & Saturn in some way. The same with Ford, Linc & Merc has to go. Maybe they can save the Lincoln nameplate for upscale Fords (is that an oxymoron). Branding image is a surface problem, & quality is improving for the domestics, but is dealer sales and service improving as well? Value is also a big question, with the fleet sales for domestics, resale value plummets; also the initial MSRP price/features compared to the big three Japaneese makers has to improve. Maybe the pensions and healthcare costs can be trimmed, and then GM / Ford can reduce prices 15-20% and make profits. This of course should have been done years ago. But what is going to get the avgerage person to buy a domestic brand. Cars with a great drive, good looks, good value and reliability.
Here is my list of GM and Ford cars that do that
Saturn Vue AWD Sport Model? Ford Escape Ford Focus Saturn / Chevy Cobalt SS Pontiac/Saturm G6/? Ford Explorer Chevy Tahoe / Suburban - Give these hybrid power and watch out Chevy/Pontiac Equinox/Torrent Pontiac Vibe Chevy Aveo - Yes I did say Aveo. Piss poor job of marketing this car has potential Ford Freestyle Ford/Lincoln Fusion/Zephyr Pontiac Boneville GXP Pontiac GTO Cadillac Line Chevy Corvette Ford Mustang Pontiac/Saturn Solstice/Sky Ford/Lincoln Expedition/Aviator
Let's suppose somebody reading this thread wants a four-door midsize sedan, ala Ford Fusion, Honda Accord, Toyota Camry, etc. Which cars in this class are OK with you, which ones aren't, and what criteria did you use for choosing those that you'd recommend?
Well how about a Pontiac Grand Prix GT or preferably the GXP model. The GT holds it's own, but the GXP is a far better enthusiasts drive than an Accord or Camry. As for reliability, there are a s*** load of old Grand Prixs driving around. Then there is the Malibu LTZ or SS models.
These are decent cars and the Accord and Camry are nice but not a class above better. Camry's are nice but they are not drivers cars
"Very good point, and one we often forget. We argue a lot about why people keep buying Toyotas, but what's worse is that longtime GM and Ford owners are choosing to buy Toyotas and Hyundais. Now; at a time when the quality gap is said to be small. Ask them for their reasons."
While I can't speak for others, the reason I went to Toyota and then to Honda is because the service at the dealerships is just better at my local "Import" dealear than the "Domestic" dealers. I actually had more problems with my Toyota than my GM. However, at the toyota dealer everything was fixed correctly the first time, and I never heard "We couldn't reproduce it" from them, which was the response I always got from the local chevy dealer.
we have to face the future as Americans subservient to a foreign power, other nations like China and Japan will decide our future and call the shots as we loose our manufacturing and heavy industries, along with banking and financial houses as the money leaves our shores.
China and Saudi already own considerable part of US economy. In fact, America have borrowed from them to fund the ongoing oil war and possibly upcoming effort in Iran which would be good opportunity for retrenched GM/Ford employees to do some real work over there for a change.
No , they don't own the plant, they own the cars the plant builds. The plant won the gold award because they build the most consistant and best quality cars, the plant one the award because of what they build, what you park in your garage is what they build..........simple dude. Yes, they are concerned about the cobalt results, you keep pointing at that 1 vehicle, chevy Equinox, 87PPH for the first half of 2005, thats the vehicle i'll choose if we are only picking one. can you say "segment leader". can't wait to see if they kept it up for the latter half of 2005!!!!
"Here is one fact that nobody can argue with. If GM and Ford are loosing market share, then it means that current GM and Ford's customers don't want to purchase a GM of Ford car again."
This statement that people are basing their posts on is somewhat mathmatically inaccurate. It doesn't take into consideration how much new buyers i.e. growth in the market may affect the market share percentages. I will explain.
Let us say there are only 10 car on the market, 5 Ford, 5 GM. They then have 50% market share each. Let us say then that all ten people buy Ford and GM products again but now the market has grown and 5 people buy Toyotas. Now all three have 33% market share. Though everyone who bought a Ford/GM previously bought one again. I read this post at work and thought somebody would say something, but I was wrong. For this claim to be accurate, you have to assume that the new drivers do not represent all of the total new cars on the road. That is a safe assumption but it makes things very complicated because then the question becomes, well how many sales are to new customers. This would decrease Ford/GM market share without their current customers doing a thing.
I love the Equinox. I wanted to buy one,... until I test drove one. Now I have second thoughts. THe one I rented had just come to the rental company. The SUV worked fine, except for the handbrake that didn't want to release a coupel times (no biggie, just had to give it a little elbow grease) but its execution was a little off. I am a BIG small SUV fan. I plan on buying a Ford Edge next year so I am bnot biased, but the Equinox though of high quality has funky things like unillunated window controls, in the center column, and the steering was awful. I don't like the Honda CRV either, that thing doesn't look as good as the Equinox and is not well laid out at all. The RAV4 is too small. The Escape has plastics that seem to be out of playschool toys. The Highlander,.... it's okay just kind of bland. The small SUVs the are competitive, to me, are the Ford Edge, the Mazda CX-7, the 2007 Rav4, and soon the 2007 Sante Fe. The Pontiac Torrent is an Equinox for more money so I won't even comment on it. So of all the small SUV's out and coming out, I give the nod to the Ford. Why? I think it is the best overall package.
I feel a lot of you are not being fair, and kind of hypocritical. You say American way this and that and then blatantly slash down an entire brand, oftenly GM/Ford. I thought each individual stood on the strength of their character? The same goes for cars.
I have no favorite brand. I only have favorite vehicles. Look at the Toyota Echo, IT SUCKS. Look at the Ford 500, IT SUCKS. Now look at the 2007 Rav4, IT'S A WINNER, or the Ford Mustang, IT'S A WINNER. The Mustang has pretty good reliability too. I don't know one thing that Honda makes that I'd even look at, but I'd buy a TL or RL. I'd buy a G35 but I'd set fire to a QX before I'd buy it. I'd buy a Corvette, but gladly push a Malibu Maxx off the nearest bridge. I'd buy a GS300, but I wouldn't take an RX from a free drawing. Why are people blanking all of Ford or all of GM as horrid. What about an Escalade, what about an F-150, what about Fod GT, what about a Range Rover, what about an Explorer? Do all the vehicles really suck? If I had to pick a "favorite" car company it would be Mazda because to me they have the most hits (Mazda3, Mazda6, CX-7, Miata, RX-8). It's the strength of their products, not my personal bias.
I will say this.I work in the auto industry.We make the adjustable pedals on the chevys,fords,dodges,marcades benz.The one thing I know for a fact is that we only make pedals for all of these companys suvs.Let me stress this only the suvs.My point to all this is that the big three make all there cars overseas.And guess what the only vehicles that the big three make in the states are suvs.And not all of them either.Chevy equinox is made overseas.So if you really want a american mad car buy a toyota or honda cuase there are made in the states.These people that say buy american.What vehicle is?
Well since my 401k makes alot more 'profit' from the overseas funds recently then the Dow funds... WalMart unfortunately will have to wait for quite a while. I've more money coming in from the 'overseas' funds than the domestic funds by a lot.. I'm bringing the profits back here.
You can also it's easy.
You have the oil situation backward, but on this I agree with you. There are no Iranian-transplanted oil fields here in the US. Yes a major part of the money we pay for fuel goes to OPEC in one form or another thereby funding anti-American regimes in Venezuela, Iran and Saudi Arabia ( IMO ). This tax we pay to these countries does nothing to improve our way of life here. It does the opposite it sucks life out of our economy.
This is not at all like Honda or Hyundai coming here and building plants which employee Americans and contribute to the development of new economic zones. The Auto-Corridor from Marysville to Mobile is replacing the one from Cleveland to Chicago nothing more.
One part of the country is growing while another is struggling. It's just business and we will adapt.
And I will continue to repatriate as much profit as I can into my 401k plan. You should too.
essentially all you have done is some name-calling with no specifics except ... a pizza place vs a chinese restaurant?
Looking at your recent posts you don't appear to be very well informed. Do you realize that a lot of GM/Ford products make Mexicans and Koreans and Swedes better off than you are? These vehicle generate no American production jobs at all. GM with the Aveo is just like WalMart. Nothing more, nice little Korean 'trinket' as you say.
Well how about a Pontiac Grand Prix GT or preferably the GXP model. The GT holds it's own, but the GXP is a far better enthusiasts drive than an Accord or Camry. As for reliability, there are a s*** load of old Grand Prixs driving around. Then there is the Malibu LTZ or SS models.
Here is a key problem which IMO the people in Detroit miss or ignore. 'enthusiasts' there arent enough of them. You cannot maintain a massive infrastructure on a few peripheral vehicles. They may be a blast to drive and be the best vehicles ever made by GM. But the volume is too small and once the enthusiasts are fully sold... then what.
The American public has spoken with it's wallet as noted before. And as our erudite debater also noted, follow the money.. who's buying what and why?
Lets talk Suzuki motor corp. then , no stellar quality awards, no ground breaking vehicles, yet they are growing leaps and bounds (18.7% in 2005), can you imagine if GM posted a 18.7% increase in annual sales!!!!! Around 100000 vehicles sold in '05 , predicted to sell 500000 by 2010!! It shows these foreign auto makers take from the big 3 because they simply offer something different, not because quality is so much better, the more cars that are offered, trhe more the big 3 will loose, these vehicles gotta come from somewhere, it's bound to be from the automakers on the top!! , at least a little bit...........
Lets talk Suzuki motor corp. then , no stellar quality awards, no ground breaking vehicles, yet they are growing leaps and bounds (18.7% in 2005), can you imagine if GM posted a 18.7% increase in annual sales!!!!!
An 18.7% increase in sales doesn't translate into a lot of vehicles on the road when the company wasn't selling many to begin with. That's good news for Suzuki, but not meaningful in terms of overall market share.
In any case, Suzuki has a brand with a positive reputation (brand) due to its motorcycles. Unlike GM, it didn't work actively to burn its reputation, build sub-par products and create dissatisfied customers who, after decades of abuse and neglect, would rather spend their money elsewhere.
You never answered my previous question, so I will pose it again -- if you were in GM management and you saw the relatively low JD Power results for the Cobalt, what would you do about it?
Here's a subtext: All businesses (not just GM, but everyone from your corner liquor store on up) need to provide reasons for customers to seek them out and spend their money with them.
If GM insists on building a car that is inferior to the competition, why would you expect anyone to want to buy it? Is GM a charity that deserves the handicapped parking spot of the car industry?
I appreciate your effort to make a list. I'll overlook the fact that the GTO is built in Australia for a moment, and consider the mid-sized sedan category.
According to JD Power, this is the Pontiac G6 stacks up against the Camry and Accord. (Ratings are on a 1-5 scale, 5 being best):
Overall quality: Accord - 4 Camry - 4 G6 - 3
Mechanical quality: Accord - 4 Camry - 3 G6 - 4
Body and interior quality: Accord - 4 Camry - 4 G6 - 3
Overall dependability: Accord - 4 Camry - 4 G6 - no data
Mechanical dependability: Accord - 5 Camry - 4 G6 - no data
Body and interior dependability: Accord - 3 Camry - 3 G6 - no data
Now, to be fair, the G6 actually does well in the subjective areas (comfort, performance, etc.) and even beating the Camry and tieing with Accord in initial mechanical quality. I respect that this car is much more comparable to its competition than is the Cobalt to those in its class. (You can see the Cobalt rankings above.) So at least GM is heading in the right direction with this one.
But still, we can see that dependability of the G6 is less certain, in comparison to two cars with a pretty solid track record, while the quality of the G6 is below the other two. All of that makes the Pontiac more of a gamble, so it's fair to expect some consumers to make GM prove itself over a period of time before trusting them enough to go back. I wouldn't blame the consumer for expecting more of a track record before eagerly leaping back, and neither should GM. They need to produce sustained quality over the bulk of the product line before they can expect to woo more customers.
And in any case, I still don't see why the Toyota and Honda are bad choices when they employ American workers to build these cars. All three of these cars were built in the US, provided Americans with jobs, and paid taxes to the US, so where is the harm in buying the less risky choice?
At this point, isn't the Vitara and outgoing XL-7 (dunno if that one's getting replaced or not) the only thing Suzuki actually makes these days? Sure, there's the Verona, Reno, and an in-between model I'm forgetting, but those are just rebadged Daewoos (basically just redesignes of the old Lanos/Nubira/Leganza, with Suzuki names instead of Daewoo ones)
Comments
More than a myth my friend.
On the surface your argument seems correct, but if you look deeper it falls apart. According to your argument there are now more companies and they are splitting the same pie into more pieces, so each piece is smaller. That is why GM and Ford are loosing market share, because the same pie is split into more, but smaller pieces.
Lets see if facts support your argument. Chryslers market share in 1992 was 13% and now in 2005 its same 13%. Why did Chrysler not loose any market share? If every body is getting a smaller piece of the pie, Chryslers share should also go down. It did not change in 13 years.
Why does Honda and Toyota continue to increase their market share in USA. According to your argument Toyota and Honda's market share should also decline, but it continues to increase. You see now how your theory is completely false.
What is happening is that Toyota and Honda are simply walking away with GM's and Ford's customers. Lets face it, Toyota builds a better Buick then GM.
Here is one fact that nobody can argue with. If GM and Ford are loosing market share, then it means that current GM and Ford's customers don't want to purchase a GM of Ford car again. You must wonder why there are so many unhappy GM and Ford customers that they are not buying from the same company again. You must wonder why Toyota and Honda have loyal customers and Ford and GM have customers who don't want to deal with the company again. The reason why GM and Ford are loosing market share is because their current customers don't want to deal with these companies again.
Its that simple. :P
You don't buy a factory, you buy a car. And not every GM product is built at one of those better factories. Consider the possibility that the cars not built at those factories might be worse than their competitors.
As we see from the initial JD Power data, the Cobalt lags its competitors. If you were at the helm of GM, what would you do about it? Would you blame the customer, or would you try to change and improve the car to please the customer?
Blame the media!
All these responses, yet you have yet to name a single car that one should buy or not buy, and a set of coherent criteria to be used to select it.
Maybe it's just me, but does anyone else get the feeling that you just don't know the answer?
I'm a pontiac person, had far fewer probs than my friends with japanese cars, and i won't even comment on my neighbours volkswagon...............
Look back at my post in regards to my aunt, she bought not on real life experience, or any researched fact but on heresay (myth), she has money to spend, complains of the camry being to small, but chose it because of heresay, why not the Ford crown vic (winner of JD power gold award 3 years) that has facts behind it?
Buy what you think is best by all means, i just think if people went with fact, not what their buddy told them after watching "fast and furious", it might be a bit different.
Hype sells, not data.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Very good point, and one we often forget. We argue a lot about why people keep buying Toyotas, but what's worse is that longtime GM and Ford owners are choosing to buy Toyotas and Hyundais. Now; at a time when the quality gap is said to be small. Ask them for their reasons.
No you don't buy a factory, but in order for a factory to win a quality award, they must build quality, and you are buying what they build.......quality.
why do people use JD power to knock GM , and praise the Japanese, but when GM wins it does not count??
once again , bias perception.
i gotta go build cars now, Gm ones and Suzuki's, funny, does the suzuki have better quality that goes down the line, it does have a Japanese name ya know...........
I don't hear music, but you keep dancing.
So, if your goal is job preservation (which is fair enough), I guess you would prefer that Americans looking for a sedan buy a US-made Accord rather than a Mexican-made Fusion?
I'm trying to see how you expect the average consumer to put your philosophy into action, and you have squandered your opportunity to answer that question. Instead of talking about pizza and Chinese food, why don't you tell us whether it's better to buy a Fusion or an Accord?
Let's suppose somebody reading this thread wants a four-door midsize sedan, ala Ford Fusion, Honda Accord, Toyota Camry, etc. Which cars in this class are OK with you, which ones aren't, and what criteria did you use for choosing those that you'd recommend?
This is a car forum. If you really meant what you said, you'd try to persuade a potential "import" buyer to buy a "domestic" car. So tell us which ones those are.
So, your priority isn't with US jobs, as you implied earlier? Because Ford spent US dollars in Mexico to create jobs for Mexicans, instead of building or expanding a plant in the US where they could have hired Americans. So who creates more US employment in this scenario, Honda with its plant in Ohio, Toyota with its facility in Kentucky or Ford with all these great new jobs in Mexico?
Building the plant in Hermisillo also benefits the stockholders of Ford, which include the English Barclays Bank and the German Deutsche Bank. (You did mention foreign banks before, remember?) Should they be forced to sell their stock to keep their dividend payments in the US and out of Europe? Or is there some amount of the company and profits that the "foreigners" should be allowed to take?
I didn't just ask for the name of a car, but your criteria for choosing it. If your goal was to increase US employment, I'd say that you chose badly, but perhaps you simply don't care about the jobs as much as you had claimed earlier in the thread.
My question though is what did she have in the past? Surely something must have sparked the comment? The Camry has been a pinnacle of reliability and durability long before 2006. Why choose it now?
"Ford crown vic (winner of JD power gold award 3 years)"
Gotta laugh at this one: A Crown Vic!!!
Anyone in their right mind knows a Crown Vic is a beast. A rear drive, lost in the 80's, Body on frame beast. A Camry offers 100X the sophistication and shear drivability to the Vic. Quality of materials, switchgear, assembly all excel over the the CV IMO.
Sure the Ford is more durable, if you are used to pulling "Streets of Sanfansisco" launches with the thing. But I wouldn't call it a "Quality piece" over a Camry...
If the answer is no, then we have to face the future as Americans subservient to a foreign power, other nations like China and Japan will decide our future and call the shots as we loose our manufacturing and heavy industries, along with banking and financial houses as the money leaves our shores.
I'm sure the irony will not be lost on the last owners, the American Indians who were bought out for a few trinkets at Manhattan, while we got bought out for a few trinkets at Walmart....... :surprise:
What it means is the competition is getting fierce. As a consumer, I am going to vote with my dollars and there is nothing wrong if I make it a Home-Grown Import. As it stands, domestics need to step up or get out of the way.
Welcome to America, enjoy your stay.
Of course, the car matters. This is a car forum.
Your choice of the Fusion produces fewer jobs for Americans than the Accord or Camry. You might want to think about whether you've really sorted through this issue, as the thread title asks you to do.
Because consumers have the choice to park Cobalts or Corollas in their garages. They don't own the plant, remember?
You never answered my question, either -- obviously, JD Power found that owners of Cobalts are less satisfied than those who bought Corollas and Civics. Do you think someone at GM should be concerned about this, or doesn't it matter what someone who spends thousands of dollars on a car may have some regrets about his purchase?
yes.
can we affect that trend (trend meaning losing american jobs as american businesses are driven into bankruptcy)
no. because american companies, regardless of success, seem to be hellbent on outsourcing their jobs to countries other than the US.
are we able to make a change that would help grow future jobs and our economy
I'd have to say buying a quality product built in the US is the best way you can vote with your dollars.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
you watch way too much TV.
did you know the CEO of Nissan is from Brazil?
And somebody told you Chrysler is owned by a German company, right?
A man by the name of Finbarr J O'Neill served as the CEO of Hyundai and the CEO and cochairman of Mitsubishi.
Global economy!
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Oh, and to nip this is the bud ... no, my company is not open on the weekends, so its not mandated I work those hours. Nor do we have foreign competition we are trying to keep up with.
Plus, I get paid the same (salary) whether I put in those hours or not. But my work ethic compels me to do the best I can, at any cost, so i work weekends and nights when the work warrants it. Too bad more people weren't raised that way.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Hey, I spent 3 weeks in the UK last summer, spent probably 10 grand on the entire trip. Should I be blasted for not taking the same vacation to Cannon Falls, Minnesota and spending my money there watching Cattle being herded? Put 40 bucks in gas into the wifes MDX last night. Middle Eastern oil, but I bet it benefitted some oil monger in Texas somewhere along the line. Is that unpatriotic?
No more than buying a Honda Accord with 70% of its parts obtained from the good ol US of A. That is the point of this thread. Be scared all you want, but the US auto industry is not going anywhere. And I HIGHLY doubt going back to 90% domestic market share would be beneficial to the country. Competition is good, second rate effort doesn't cut it in Todays market.
U.S. Defense contracts abound here. 40 hour work week, weekends off, no different than the advanced plastics industry (Door and window seals
Our company is healthy as a horse. Our customers are all U.S. based.
75% of our staff drives imports :surprise:
If some people still but domestic cars because of the name on the bumper, the domestic car makers do not need to compete, so they won't.
What has happened is that true Capitalism has reared its ugly head and all car manufacturers are competing on nearly equal terms. Previously, xenophobia was working for the domestics and against the imports, but now the field is much more balanced. The domestics are not used to this and can't compete. Maybe part of the reason that Chrysler is more successful that GM or Ford is that they are not a true domestic any more and realized earlier that they had to compete a little harder?
So when Ford and GM move all of their manufacturing to Mexico or Canada and Honda and Toyota are made in the US, how will things be for Ford and GM?
Actually, I prefer to think of it as rearing her BEAUTIFUL head....
In my humble opinion, the bigger and obvious point in this forum is that there is no such thing as an American car. With car parts and assembly plants all over the world, we just buy the best car we can afford.
What's at stake here are the brands. Perhaps we should ask, why buy from GM or Ford? What do these brands mean or represent? As both brands attempt to find success by building nostalgia cars, I can't help but think that the best of both brands are past them. I predict in the next 10 years, both brands will no longer be independent. Perhaps Toyota will buy GM or Ford. I certainly will not.
Their friends ask that question, and the process repeats itself.
Here is my list of GM and Ford cars that do that
Saturn Vue AWD Sport Model?
Ford Escape
Ford Focus
Saturn / Chevy Cobalt SS
Pontiac/Saturm G6/?
Ford Explorer
Chevy Tahoe / Suburban - Give these hybrid power and watch out
Chevy/Pontiac Equinox/Torrent
Pontiac Vibe
Chevy Aveo - Yes I did say Aveo. Piss poor job of marketing this car has potential
Ford Freestyle
Ford/Lincoln Fusion/Zephyr
Pontiac Boneville GXP
Pontiac GTO
Cadillac Line
Chevy Corvette
Ford Mustang
Pontiac/Saturn Solstice/Sky
Ford/Lincoln Expedition/Aviator
Well how about a Pontiac Grand Prix GT or preferably the GXP model. The GT holds it's own, but the GXP is a far better enthusiasts drive than an Accord or Camry. As for reliability, there are a s*** load of old Grand Prixs driving around. Then there is the Malibu LTZ or SS models.
These are decent cars and the Accord and Camry are nice but not a class above better. Camry's are nice but they are not drivers cars
While I can't speak for others, the reason I went to Toyota and then to Honda is because the service at the dealerships is just better at my local "Import" dealear than the "Domestic" dealers. I actually had more problems with my Toyota than my GM. However, at the toyota dealer everything was fixed correctly the first time, and I never heard "We couldn't reproduce it" from them, which was the response I always got from the local chevy dealer.
China and Saudi already own considerable part of US economy.
In fact, America have borrowed from them to fund the ongoing oil war and possibly upcoming effort in Iran which would be good opportunity for retrenched GM/Ford employees to do some real work over there for a change.
The plant won the gold award because they build the most consistant and best quality cars, the plant one the award because of what they build, what you park in your garage is what they build..........simple dude.
Yes, they are concerned about the cobalt results, you keep pointing at that 1 vehicle, chevy Equinox, 87PPH for the first half of 2005, thats the vehicle i'll choose if we are only picking one.
can you say "segment leader".
can't wait to see if they kept it up for the latter half of 2005!!!!
This statement that people are basing their posts on is somewhat mathmatically inaccurate. It doesn't take into consideration how much new buyers i.e. growth in the market may affect the market share percentages. I will explain.
Let us say there are only 10 car on the market, 5 Ford, 5 GM. They then have 50% market share each. Let us say then that all ten people buy Ford and GM products again but now the market has grown and 5 people buy Toyotas. Now all three have 33% market share. Though everyone who bought a Ford/GM previously bought one again. I read this post at work and thought somebody would say something, but I was wrong. For this claim to be accurate, you have to assume that the new drivers do not represent all of the total new cars on the road. That is a safe assumption but it makes things very complicated because then the question becomes, well how many sales are to new customers. This would decrease Ford/GM market share without their current customers doing a thing.
I have no favorite brand. I only have favorite vehicles. Look at the Toyota Echo, IT SUCKS. Look at the Ford 500, IT SUCKS. Now look at the 2007 Rav4, IT'S A WINNER, or the Ford Mustang, IT'S A WINNER. The Mustang has pretty good reliability too. I don't know one thing that Honda makes that I'd even look at, but I'd buy a TL or RL. I'd buy a G35 but I'd set fire to a QX before I'd buy it. I'd buy a Corvette, but gladly push a Malibu Maxx off the nearest bridge. I'd buy a GS300, but I wouldn't take an RX from a free drawing. Why are people blanking all of Ford or all of GM as horrid. What about an Escalade, what about an F-150, what about Fod GT, what about a Range Rover, what about an Explorer? Do all the vehicles really suck? If I had to pick a "favorite" car company it would be Mazda because to me they have the most hits (Mazda3, Mazda6, CX-7, Miata, RX-8). It's the strength of their products, not my personal bias.
You can also it's easy.
You have the oil situation backward, but on this I agree with you. There are no Iranian-transplanted oil fields here in the US. Yes a major part of the money we pay for fuel goes to OPEC in one form or another thereby funding anti-American regimes in Venezuela, Iran and Saudi Arabia ( IMO ). This tax we pay to these countries does nothing to improve our way of life here. It does the opposite it sucks life out of our economy.
This is not at all like Honda or Hyundai coming here and building plants which employee Americans and contribute to the development of new economic zones. The Auto-Corridor from Marysville to Mobile is replacing the one from Cleveland to Chicago nothing more.
One part of the country is growing while another is struggling. It's just business and we will adapt.
And I will continue to repatriate as much profit as I can into my 401k plan. You should too.
Looking at your recent posts you don't appear to be very well informed. Do you realize that a lot of GM/Ford products make Mexicans and Koreans and Swedes better off than you are? These vehicle generate no American production jobs at all. GM with the Aveo is just like WalMart. Nothing more, nice little Korean 'trinket' as you say.
So what is American?
Why do you prefer to make your amigos better off than your own countrymen?
Here is a key problem which IMO the people in Detroit miss or ignore. 'enthusiasts' there arent enough of them. You cannot maintain a massive infrastructure on a few peripheral vehicles. They may be a blast to drive and be the best vehicles ever made by GM. But the volume is too small and once the enthusiasts are fully sold... then what.
The American public has spoken with it's wallet as noted before. And as our erudite debater also noted, follow the money.. who's buying what and why?
Around 100000 vehicles sold in '05 , predicted to sell 500000 by 2010!!
It shows these foreign auto makers take from the big 3 because they simply offer something different, not because quality is so much better, the more cars that are offered, trhe more the big 3 will loose, these vehicles gotta come from somewhere, it's bound to be from the automakers on the top!! , at least a little bit...........
An 18.7% increase in sales doesn't translate into a lot of vehicles on the road when the company wasn't selling many to begin with. That's good news for Suzuki, but not meaningful in terms of overall market share.
In any case, Suzuki has a brand with a positive reputation (brand) due to its motorcycles. Unlike GM, it didn't work actively to burn its reputation, build sub-par products and create dissatisfied customers who, after decades of abuse and neglect, would rather spend their money elsewhere.
You never answered my previous question, so I will pose it again -- if you were in GM management and you saw the relatively low JD Power results for the Cobalt, what would you do about it?
Here's a subtext: All businesses (not just GM, but everyone from your corner liquor store on up) need to provide reasons for customers to seek them out and spend their money with them.
If GM insists on building a car that is inferior to the competition, why would you expect anyone to want to buy it? Is GM a charity that deserves the handicapped parking spot of the car industry?
According to JD Power, this is the Pontiac G6 stacks up against the Camry and Accord. (Ratings are on a 1-5 scale, 5 being best):
Overall quality:
Accord - 4
Camry - 4
G6 - 3
Mechanical quality:
Accord - 4
Camry - 3
G6 - 4
Body and interior quality:
Accord - 4
Camry - 4
G6 - 3
Feature and accessory quality:
Accord - 5
Camry - 5
G6 - 3
Overall dependability:
Accord - 4
Camry - 4
G6 - no data
Mechanical dependability:
Accord - 5
Camry - 4
G6 - no data
Body and interior dependability:
Accord - 3
Camry - 3
G6 - no data
Now, to be fair, the G6 actually does well in the subjective areas (comfort, performance, etc.) and even beating the Camry and tieing with Accord in initial mechanical quality. I respect that this car is much more comparable to its competition than is the Cobalt to those in its class. (You can see the Cobalt rankings above.) So at least GM is heading in the right direction with this one.
But still, we can see that dependability of the G6 is less certain, in comparison to two cars with a pretty solid track record, while the quality of the G6 is below the other two. All of that makes the Pontiac more of a gamble, so it's fair to expect some consumers to make GM prove itself over a period of time before trusting them enough to go back. I wouldn't blame the consumer for expecting more of a track record before eagerly leaping back, and neither should GM. They need to produce sustained quality over the bulk of the product line before they can expect to woo more customers.
And in any case, I still don't see why the Toyota and Honda are bad choices when they employ American workers to build these cars. All three of these cars were built in the US, provided Americans with jobs, and paid taxes to the US, so where is the harm in buying the less risky choice?