Buying American Cars What Does It Mean?

nwng

more like: when was the last time GM/Ford sold a car without rebates because it was such a segment leader and everyone shopping in that segment wants it?

Ford GT, corvette ( don't they have 0% back then?), hummers?

reddogs

I can see you are useless to try to have a discussion with. You asked what constituted a American car, so I laid out the groundwork a ranking system with loose criteria so we could base the cars. I't seems like you dont really know what the data on the cars are or are too lazy to find out and present them. Well, let me know when you get some moxy and actually rate or rank what you consider to be American, then we may have reason to have a discussion with you......... :lemon:

savvyknight

Actually reddogs, I'm not really interested in joining socala4 and your debate, but I would be interested to know if you view Chrysler products as American or not.

I'm not saying there is a right or a wrong answer, I'm just curious about the opinion of someone with your opinions about buying American.

socala4

I't seems like you dont really know what data on the cars are and are too lazy to find out and present them.

Of the two of us, I am the only one to discuss where the manufacture and design of these vehicles take place. Very weird -- you are obviously quite opinionated and willing to preach, yet you haven't got a single piece of advice of what people should buy. (It makes me wonder whether you're just actually playing saboteur by deliberately making the Buy American! crowd look confused and unknowledgable about the auto industry.)

I've already told you that I think that a US-built Honda and Toyota do more for American jobs and the US economy than do a Mexican-built Ford or an Aussie-built Pontiac. We still haven't got a clue what you think.

I've also told you that I'm going to buy whatever car I want, whether or not it is "American"-made, because my money should be given to the company that does the best job of serving my needs. If I want to give money to charity, I'll give it to the Red Cross, not General Motors.

reddogs

Thats easy to answer, does Chrysler products constitutes an "AMERICAN" car in that it creates and keeps American jobs. Yes they do, then the second part of this issue is where does the bulk of the money go, does it stay in America to create business, jobs and oppourtunity or does it go elsewhere. In this part a lot goes outside but on the whole the bulk of the money and investment stays here. So Chrysler products are made here and are benificial financially/investment wise to us here for the most part. GM and Ford also fall into this catagory....whether American assembled Honda's and Toyota's do is another issue we are looking at.

My point is not as to say all the cars manufactured by the Big 3 keep all the money here or create jobs here, but the ones that do, we should give those cars and brands first preference on that basis, just like we went and shopped at Walmart when they promoted that they had the majority of their products American Made.

savvyknight

OK, I can see your point.

Let me ask you one other question; When you buy a Mercedes Benz are you helping the American economy as much as when you buy a Dodge/Chrysler product?

socala4

Thats easy to answer, does Chrysler products constitutes an "AMERICAN" car in that it creates and keeps American jobs.

Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Mitsubishi and Mazda employ Americans, too, so I guess those must be "American" cars, too. The fact that a company is foreign-owned (you do know that Chrysler is a Germany company, right?) doesn't matter, just so long as there are Americans on the payroll.

In this part a lot goes outside but on the whole the bulk of the money and investment stays here.

With all their plans to hire Mexicans while firing Americans, I guess that Ford has got to be a "foreign" company. Since Ford also has a large stake in Mazda, and owns Saab, Aston Martin, Range Rover and others, they aren't very American anyway, are they?

Maybe the Big Three should be Honda, Toyota and Nissan (which is actually Renault), because they are the ones investing in the US, not Ford and GM with all their foreign car operations playing such large roles in their operations. At least now we know that the Honda is A-OK with you...or, at least I think it is...

reddogs

When you buy a Mercedes Benz the majority of the money goes outside the US and since they are luxury cars it is a substantial amount. The majority of the workers building the Mercedes Benz will be outside of America so its easy to see we only get a little piece of the pie in a Mercedes Benz vs a Chrysler product........

qbrozen

Toyota and Honda alrady have plants in Japan.

yes... and?
Car manufacturers do have more than one plant each in a particular country. Just because one exists, does not mean they wouldn't build another.

as a matter of fact, Honda is contemplating yet ANOTHER plant here in the states: http://www.awknowledge.com/WAM/content.asp?contentid=47484

They're not likely to build more plants there to invade.

I'm sorry, but I have absolutely not idea what this statement means. If you are looking for a response, could you clarify, please?

What design work is done here?

quite a bit, actually. This has also been discussed here before several times (yet, again, ignored). Many so-called Japanese vehicles are designed and built exclusively here in the states to meet our particular market demands.

I can't help you on the China questions, as I don't live there.

savvyknight

I might be mistaken here, but I believe that Mercedes and Chrysler trade under the same symbol on the world markets (DCX on Dow Jones).

If that is the case, the money for a Chrysler/Mercedes goes to the same company, and consequently, affecting either the German or American economy regardless of whether or not that vehicle was a Chrysler or Mercedes.

reddogs

The money paid to the workers usually stays in their respective countries so that tips it in Chryslers favor..

anythngbutgm

Red, dude I don't know whats up but your posts are kind of blank. All you are doing is defending the defense of others here, but then attacking those who don't provide you the info to back up your defense :confuse: .

But that is after an elaborate, dramatic post about how we as Americans should fear our loss of jobs, how an implosion of our economy is inevitible based on increasing market share of import companies. Companies which have shown increased investment in our country like Honda plants in Ohio and Alabama and Toyota's 12 plants scattered throughout.

http://www.toyota.com/about/operations/manufacturing/

Tried my damndest to find the actual content of parts for each vehicle, but it is like weeding through a 6ft tall pile of #10-32 screws looking for a single #10-24.

So this argument is going to keep going round and round...

reddogs

I agree but some people just have to know what percentage or criteria makes it a American car or they will loose it in their pants..........

I try to write as eloquently as possible but I write so poorly, I hope the ideas and fervor come through......

qbrozen

Tried my damndest to find the actual content of parts for each vehicle, but it is like weeding through a 6ft tall pile of #10-32 screws looking for a single #10-24.

I've been trying the same thing, also to no avail.

The worst part is, no matter what you find, someone wants to change their definition of what is american. For instance, someone will mention something about major parts coming from Japan for Japanese vehicles ... yet Honda has a dedicated plant here just for engines and transmissions. BUT, then Chrysler is still american although it uses engines a trannys straight from Germany. (i left out specific posters since i believe there are many offenders)

I just don't get it.

anythngbutgm

The percentages are a best kept secret. Tracking down actual numbers would be impossible as we would have to dig into whose parts are American, what percentage of those Assemblies are made with domestic content using domestic labor, etc...

Let's really stir the pot... Here at my company, we have a central location for all of our hardware that we use to build our products. All the boxes say product is "Made in USA". How much do you wanna make a bet the box they came in is from China? The truck that delivered it was a Swedish Volvo box truck probably running on Japanese Bridgestone tires using Iraqi fuel.

Am I using American hardware?

But to answer your question what constitutes buying an American Automobile. Well, if that's the case, I'll support ANYONE who employs us (American workforce) in a "homegrown" plant on U.S. soil. I think that is the BEST scenario we can stick to for supporting the U.S. economy.

I see no issue with Asian or Euro or what-not planting seeds here on U.S. soil so they can sell cars to us Americans any more than a Ford or Chysler plant plopped in the middle of Michigan or Oklahoma and doing the same damn thing. Thus the clouded debate that is the title of this thread.

buddhabman

I place very little faith in what JD powers reports. I don't have faith in their research sampling at all. In terms of inital or long-term quality reporting. I think the bench mark for this testing is Consumer Reports. saying. I also have another take that relates to how the domestics are viewed. In many cases peoples initial impressions of domestic cars comes through the rental car experience. What usually gets placed in rental car fleets is the base no frills models. If the more featured models were offered I think the reponse would be better. I think placement of base model Hondas and Toyotas would have a detracting effect.

anythngbutgm

It was an alternate to the tired old "Looking for a needle in a haystack" comments... Essentially, the info for U.S. content by brand or model of vehicle was impossible to find without countless hours worth of weeding through dead end links.

socala4

I place very little faith in what JD powers reports. I don't have faith in their research sampling at all. In terms of inital or long-term quality reporting.

Why not? The methodology seems sound, and every manufacturer is paying large sums of money to get the results, so the industry seems to think it's important. If you have a reason to dispute it, you should provide it.

I think the bench mark for this testing is Consumer Reports.

It's a decent survey, although the methodology is a bit flawed because it is based solely upon subscribers of CR, rather than the broad pool of buyers. But since the data fairly well jibes with other research, such as that of JD Power, I find it to be reasonably reliable.

I also have another take that relates to how the domestics are viewed. In many cases peoples initial impressions of domestic cars comes through the rental car experience. What usually gets placed in rental car fleets is the base no frills models.

JD Powers and CR survey owners, not renters, so except to the extent that respondents lie, data from rentals should not impact the data. (JD Powers surveys fleet owners, but I believe that it reports the data seperately.)

I've driven quite a few rental cars rented from all of the majors, and even once had a job with a rental car company while attending university, so I know that the rental agencies actually usually rent mid-level models with reasonable amounts of equipment.

They don't tend to buy bottom-level cars because they are often stuck with the burden of selling them at the end of their rental lives, so they need cars that are equipped well enough to be able to appeal to the used car market. These cars often have automatic transmissions, power windows and mirrors, air conditioning, cruise control, ABS, and other such features. Leather interiors are few and far between, and you won't find many DVD players, but the cars are not stripped, either.

In any case, a lack of equipment wouldn't hurt the reliability -- if anything, it might help, as there would be less to break. But again, rental car data doesn't end up in CR.

reddogs

Then what we need to do to find the info for U.S. content by brand or model of vehicle, is get a source that has connections to the BIG 3 or their suppliers that would give us some percentages and detailed information. It may be they consider it sensitive since many people would like to buy American made and they dont want to admit what is and what isnt made in the USA or the level of content.

....anybody have a 'deep throat' hidden away somewhere........ :surprise:

socala4

Then what we need to do to find the info for U.S. content by brand or model of vehicle, is get someone that has connections to the BIG 3 or their suppliers that would give us some basic stats....anybody have a 'deep throat' hidden away somewhere.

Does that really seem necessary now that Toyota and Honda are building cars in the US designed by people in the US, while Ford is busy firing Americans and hiring Mexicans? Seems that Toyota Motor Corp., a NYSE-listed company, is pretty American to me, while those guys in Dearborn who are trying to sell us Volvos and Land Rovers are not.

If that doesn't help, Toyota announced today that it will be participating in NASCAR. Thinking of Billy Bob rooting for the American-made Toyota instead of that foreign FoMoCo kinda brings a tear to my eye...

rorr

"Toyota announced today that it will be participating in NASCAR."

Actually, Toyota has been in Nascar for a few years now. And they've been competitive from the get-go despite having to develope a brand new push-rod motor to compete with Ford/GM/Dodge in the Craftsman Truck series.

Oh, and all the R&D for this new racing engine technology was done.....in America.

chieftbone

My soapbox: I concur that Made In The USA is just that – made by US citizens in the US, with parts supplied by US citizens. When it comes to the automobile, because of its affect on this country’s industrial base, I find the influx of foreign brands very threatening and purchase thereof disappointing.

I know the arguments for buying Toyota, Honda, et al – but regardless, the purchase of these automobiles is simply short sighted selfish consumerism across the board. Conversely, the lack of competitive product offered by our corporations is simply short sighted self serving capitalism at its worst. Both not only damage the economy, but damages our ability as US citizens to control and protect our own destiny. The only way out is to do two things – enact better controls on the management of our corporations, and find the very best the US has to offer – and buy it.

socala4

I find the influx of foreign brands very threatening and purchase thereof disappointing.

So which of the following are "foreign" brands?

-Chrysler, which is headquartered in Stuttgart?
-Saab, which is owned by GM?
-Volvo, which is owned by Ford?
-Mazda, which is partially owned by Ford and builds cars in the US?
-Toyota, which designs cars in the US for US consumers that it builds in US factories?
-Honda, which designs cars in the US for US consumers that it builds in US factories?

I would hope that after almost 600 posts that some of you would realize that this car "made by US citizens in the US, with parts supplied by US citizens" is a bit tough to define, and may no longer exist.

chieftbone

Though you're correct in saying that Made In The USA may no longer exist - it's not hard to define. And it's not the point: The point is, that the more you destroy your industrial base, the less ability you have to control your countries destiny. I don't know the answer to this, but since it doesn't seem to concern you - you must have an answer to this question: When this country was attacked in 1941, we turned to GM to build a bulk of this country's military equipment. Can we do the same tomorrow with Toyota's and Honda's factories here?

asafonov

The money paid to the workers usually stays in their respective countries so that tips it in Chryslers favor..

What about a Mexican made Chrysler vs. an Alabama-built Mercedes?

The fervor comes through, the ideas though...

socala4

Though you're correct in saying that Made In The USA may no longer exist - it's not hard to define.

In today's world, it is not easy to define, given that design, research and subassemblies now come from a wide variety of places, and that ownership has been globalized. I still don't know from this thread why Chrysler is "American", yet Toyota is not.

When this country was attacked in 1941, we turned to GM to build a bulk of this country's military equipment. Can we do the same tomorrow with Toyota's and Honda's factories here?

During an extended time of war, industries can be nationalized as needed to produce for the war machine.

Case in point: During WWII, Ford's Cologne plant was operated on behalf of the [non-permissible content removed], and Allied troops discovered that some of the German vehicles they seized had the Ford logo on them. According to an article in The Nation, Dearborn was paid the profits after the war was over, so Henry got to pocket some money earned from the Wehrmacht.

I don't know the answer to this, but since it doesn't seem to concern you

Actually, I am concerned about the outsourcing trend in general terms. But the auto industry has already been globalized to such a significant and irreversible extent that the old rules no longer apply. Buying a Ford just so the money can be used to build factories overseas while US jobs are cut makes no sense when you can buy a "Japanese" car from a company that actually wants to hire more Americans.

And in any case, buying a car is a significant purchase, and as a consumer, I have every right to demand value for my money. If GM wants my business, then let them build a car with the styling and features that I want to drive with a level of quality and durability that I find to be acceptable, and then I'll consider buying it. (Competition improves the breed -- before the Japanese showed up, American cars were rolling heaps of which Detroit should have been ashamed.)

So until then, I'll be as loyal to them as they were to the people of Flint, Michigan who they fired en masse after shutting down a plant on land that was stolen from others via the power of eminent domain. These companies are multinationals, and Ford is no more accountable to me than is Toyota. If Ford wants the loyalty of American consumers, maybe they shouldn't be planning on firing so many of them...

ez2beme00

Do you think that the Japanese are going to attack us again? The world economy is all tied together now, its not 1941, the world has changed. The international corporations that have ops in the US have just as much to lose as US citizens,not only material holdings but a market base as well, don't you think that they would help to protect it?

travler

Back to the same question. If they're building quality why aren't people buying them, and why are "consumer" reports (people who actually bought these products) showing so many complaints about defects, and poor quality workmanship? They showed good faith by buying it. Yet they're being let down by the manufacturer. That's how they/we feel. Their money is hard earned the same as yours'. Who can afford to buy American in the long run if the product can't be depended on.

Again, I don't want to see the big 3 go down. We'll all suffer for it. But...they must make changes. I have family working for GM. I don't want to see them go down. I am not biased. I see the writing on the wall. I'm so sorry about it all.

killerbunny

I know the arguments for buying Toyota, Honda, et al – but regardless, the purchase of these automobiles is simply short sighted selfish consumerism across the board. Conversely, the lack of competitive product offered by our corporations is simply short sighted self serving capitalism at its worst.

The consumer is always right, and thus cannot be short-sighted by definition. If you want people buy American cars, make sure there is something worth buying.

It may not be obvious to you, but "capitalism at its worst" helps the U.S. the most. If Americans choose to deny Japanese cars or Chinese garments, they could well do the same. Imagine what if the Japanese stop buying Boeing airplanes (there is Airbus) and the Chinese stop buying Motorola cellphones .... It will be ugly, I assure you. :lemon:

imidazol97

Others have said that the Japanese auto workers are unionized--Toyota and Honda just don't want unions in their plants in the states.

chieftbone

“Do you think that the Japanese are going to attack us again? The world economy is all tied together now, its not 1941, the world has changed. The international corporations that have ops in the US have just as much to lose as US citizens, not only material holdings but a market base as well, don't you think that they would help to protect it?”

Will Japan attack us - no. But I could tell you a story of a US Naval pilot who was stationed in Japan for several years. The Japanese are a proud people, and the beating they took from America remains a bitter pill that has been handed down from one generation to next. More than one Japanese he talked to talked about the defeat of America industrially… Frankly, I don’t necessarily believe that – but I also know we Americans bounce from one thing to the next, whereas the Japanese are much more disciplined and far sighted.

More to the point – don’t you think that world events have been shaped by America’s industrial power? What control will we lose as we lose our industrial power?

“It may not be obvious to you, but "capitalism at its worst" helps the U.S. the most. If Americans choose to deny Japanese cars or Chinese garments, they could well do the same. Imagine what if the Japanese stop buying Boeing airplanes (there is Airbus) and the Chinese stop buying Motorola cellphones .... It will be ugly, I assure you.”

No disrespect, but this is almost a joke. Jeopardy question: What is $45 Billion? Answer: US trade deficit – so far this year. 2004 - $617 billion. 2005 - $661 billion. Who are you defending?! Unless you’re in the top 2% of this nation’s income bracket, I fail to see why anyone – ANYONE – would support the export of our jobs. Be it in textiles, automobile production… These low income, insurance-less laborers – sometimes child laborers – do nothing but support the corporation, its CEOs and shareholders. At what point can we no longer buy, because we don’t produce anything? You can shove the service industry, which is nothing more than Third World servitude. It won’t happen to you or I, but it will happen to our kids. And buying Toyotas isn’t all of it, but it’s certainly part of it. So is buying Chinese made crap from WalMart, or any other conglomerate. If you are a hard working citizen, Corporate American is not on your side – period. An in my mind, if you buy, buy, buy – without further consideration – you’re doing nothing but spiting yourself.

One step further – how quick do you fall into commenting “Corporate America controls our government?” It’s a little scary to think that we are allowing Saudi Arabia influence, next Japan, then who? Isn’t it bad enough that we, as American citizens have lost control at all?

ez2beme00

Still..........the bottom line is "Produce a product that people want,price it competetivly and people will beat your door down to buy it". Call it what you want,its the reason that people are driving past GM/Ford dealerships to buy Toyotas. And thats not going to change anytime soon.

gtee

And buying Toyotas isn’t all of it, but it’s certainly part of it. So is buying Chinese made crap from WalMart, or any other conglomerate. If you are a hard working citizen, Corporate American is not on your side – period.

That is exactly right, Corporate America is not on your side. That is why the consumer has to look out for number one, himself. That is why I always purchase the best product that fits my needs, and only then I look where its manufactured. If its made in USA, then so much the better.

Every body talks about trade deficit, but we have to look at the components of this trade deficit. USA is a major importer of oil. Every time we purchase a gas guzzling American made SUV and Truck we have to import more oil. A GM SUV that gets 15 MPG and assuming it will last 150K miles will consume about 10,000 gallons of fuel during its life time. The cost of gas is $2 per gallon. This means that during the life time of this SUV we have to import $20,000 worth of oil into America just to drive this American made SUV. Now if you purchase a Small Honda or Toyota which gets 30 MPG, we only need to import $10,000 worth of oil. This means that during the life cycle of a car its much better to purchase a American Made Honda or Toyota because it causes less of a trade deficit.

You see there is more to trade deficit then where a car is made. There is also the question of oil imports and environment costs. But going strictly on Trade Deficit we should all buy small economic cars. That will do more to help our trade deficit then purchasing an American made gas guzzler.

gtee

Apparently the reputation of Toyota, Nissan and Honda is high not only among consumers but also among dealers.

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060123/AUTO01/601230326/1148-

Take a look at the Detroit News Article about auto dealers satisfaction with each company. You guessed it right the best companies are Toyota, Nissan and Honda. The worst is Ford. So you see its not only the consumers who are not happy with domestic car industry, its also the dealers. I am sure unhappy dealers do not provide the best service. Unhappy car companies, unhappy car dealers, unhappy car customers. Is this what is meant by Buy American?

imidazol97

That's an interesting article. Thanks for posting.

The only real shift in opinion of dealers and their preference for brand is Ford went from 10th to 20th!!!
Buick went from 16th to 11th; that may indicate a better future for Buick than some think. Maybe an upcoming shift in GM total lineup so Buick has a better selling and company position.

chieftbone

I know this isn't what this thread was originally about - but this is an interesting subject...

Just for the record - oil amounts to about 7% of our trade deficit. Your comment, "that is why the consumer has to look out for number one, himself. That is why I always purchase the best product that fits my needs, and only then I look where its manufactured. If its made in USA, then so much the better." - strikes directly at my point. In the end, in an attempt to strike out at Corporate America, you've simply spited yourself. When we no longer can produce a product, we no longer have any purchasing power - anywhere.

Maybe I'm an extremist - but I believe we're at a turning point in this country. I think there's been three generations that have floated by living high on the hog. The "lookout for myself" mentality is about to strip away what has made this country great. It seems to me we all want to fight, to be competitive - but supporting our competitor is counter-productive.

I'd suggest we fight Corporate America directly. Kill NAFTA. Use the SEC to review each and every corporation of size every 4 years. If it's not turning a profit, and thus being supportive of the shareholders, and more importantly the employees - then turn over the CEO and Board. Did you know that in 1994, GM supported 12% of the US populations health care? Some may scream - that's f*cked! But if GM doesn't provide this support, you and I do. What's wrong with a corporation supporting the people? And it used to work - as long as we bought GM. So who screwed us? The 2% who looked to rape the company. Those are the ones we need to crucify.

Consumers strike back by purchasing Toyotas - but when we turn the money spicket out of our cup - we ultimately will run dry.

For those who are history buffs, and those that think capitalism run amok is the way it's always been - governmental control of corporations is the way it used to be.

irnmdn

Dealers would rather sell Subarus than Cadillacs!

socala4

Answer: US trade deficit – so far this year. 2004 - $617 billion. 2005 - $661 billion. Who are you defending?!

I appreciate your concern about the trade deficit, I really do. But have you considered how the Big Two might help contribute to a lower trade deficit, at least in theory:

-Produce more fuel-efficient cars so that the US imports less oil

-Stop acquiring overseas makers such as Saab, Volvo, Range Rover, etc. so that Americans don't buy cars built overseas

-Stop building plants abroad with the intention of importing cars from those places back to the US

-Shut down their plants abroad, and build cars in the US with the intent of exporting them back to Europe, Australia, etc., i.e. build Opels, Vauxhalls and Holdens in the US and ship them back overseas

-Build "American" cars that people overseas actually want, so that their sales of US cars increase abroad, i.e. make an Impala that someone in the UK might actually want to buy

-Make American cars desirable, interesting, and reliable enough to American customers that they want to buy the "domestic" offerings and do not want to buy imports

Aside from occasional tweaks, such as improving the Corvette to match European needs, do you see these companies doing any of these things? Why should I help them more than they would help themselves? And why do I allegedly owe more to the country and its trade deficit than they do?

Unless you’re in the top 2% of this nation’s income bracket, I fail to see why anyone – ANYONE – would support the export of our jobs.

We're back to "comparative advantage" -- importing goods allows an economy to access more efficient sources of production, that allow the domestic economy to direct its (scarce) resources to more productive sectors.

Instead of making textiles, the US can earn more money from software, intellectual property (music, film, etc.), financial services, and other higher margin areas. This increases US GDP, reduces its inflation rate by accessing lower cost goods, and reduces interest rates, which in turn provides a lower cost of capital that allows businesses to grow. The lower prices also provide consumers with more disposable income, providing them with greater prosperity and increasing their demand for goods, which in turn increase employment as businesses expand to serve those customers.

I would agree that the system is far from perfect, but do bear in mind that the US has some of highest consistent GDP growth and lowest combinations of inflation and unemployment in the western world.

One reason the US is prosperous is because we have low inflation, which is a direct result of the trade deficit. Fortunately for the US, it is strong enough to attract the foreign investment needed to offset that trade deficit, you can decide for yourself whether this is a short-term gain or a long-run benefit.

chicagodrive1

Anyone want to wager how long (or soon) it will take GM or Ford to declare bankruptcy?

Side Note: I keep seeing posts about the Big Three. NEWS FLASH 1998: Chrysler was acquired by Dieter and his pet monkey in Stuttgart. For those that refuse to accept the truth: you're living in denial, that new Charger your salivating over is an E-Class underneath, the Accord that you gleefully tailgate with your RAM truck probably has more American parts...

socala4

Anyone want to wager how long (or soon) it will take GM or Ford to declare bankruptcy?

I won't take that bet, because I'm sure that you're right.

The auto industry has learned from the likes of United Airlines -- use bankruptcy first and foremost to defang the unions. Reorganization will involve new labor contracts, more outsourcing, and a chance to shift healthcare costs onto workers, i.e. cutting their wages beyond the cuts that will be imposed by new labor contracts.

Just don't expect any apologies from management for all of the plant closures, job cuts and the second-rate designs that consumers don't want...

carlisimo

For what it's worth, these figures are out of a column by Jerry Bonkowski on Yahoo about Toyota's entry into NASCAR.

400,000 employees in the US
1.15 million vehicles built here out of 2 million sold here
$25 billion spent in the US in 2004

There isn't much detail, and I don't know what to compare it to, but I have to assume that Yahoo Sports has better researchers than we do.

reddogs

You are hitting the nail on the head, we have to look for and buy American or else we may soon be seeing a lot more of the following:

"Ford announced Monday it is shuttering 13 plants in a major cost-cutting move.

In all, some 25,000 to 30,000 Ford employees in North America will lose their jobs, representing about 20 percent of the company's work force. That comes after General Motors Corp. announced it would cut 30,000 manufacturing jobs and close nine North American assembly plants.

"25,000 to 30,000 Ford employees in North America will lose their jobs, representing about 20 percent of the company's work force" ..."Their hopes and dreams and aspirations and secure future are gone for now," said Ken Dearing, president of the local union that represents Ford workers at the Hazlewood, Mo., plant outside St. Louis, which is being idled....In addition to the Georgia and Missouri plants, Ford also said it will idle Michigan's Wixom assembly plant and Ohio's Batavia transmission plant. Windsor Casting in Ontario also will be idled.. "This really hits me hard," said one worker, who listened to the announcement on the radio in a white Ford Probe parked across the street from the Wixom plant. "It looks like I'm starting over." ..."We're devastated," said Danny Sparks, chairman of the local union representing Ford workers at the Hapeville plant. "This work force deserves some attention to this. They have done everything Ford has asked of them." ....Georgia officials had worked with Ford for four years to study ways to keep the historic Hapeville plant in production, but "market forces beyond the control of government have caused it to succumb," Gov. Sonny Perdue said Monday....Ford had considered retooling the plant for assembly of a new model of vehicles. Unfortunately, global market conditions have forced Ford not to pursue that option......."

We may not think it matters looking for and buying American cars since its just union jobs or blue collar workers but when it starts to affect white collar jobs or other industries we may find our jobs being affected, then who you going to call to come to help save your jobs........ :confuse:

socala4

You are hitting the nail on the head, we have to look for and buy American

That's pretty rich, coming from a guy who can't name or recommend a single "American" car to buy.

Let's get down to brass tacks: If you think that a German-owned company (Chrysler) builds "American" cars or that cars built in Mexico by Ford -- you know, the company that's planning on eliminating 25-30,000 US jobs and shifting more production overseas -- is "American" (Fusion), yet a Honda Accord designed and manufactured in the United States is "Japanese", no matter how many Americans they hire or how many taxes they pay, then perhaps the issue isn't just about business, at least for some of you.

If the guys with the foreign accents at the helm of the management are white Europeans, then you have no problem believing that the car is "American", even if its R&D came out of Germany and it shares underpinnings with a Mercedes. Yet, if the management is comprised of guys who are a bit darker (or "whale eaters", as one poster delicately likes to call them), then suddenly the company becomes "foreign" and it NEEDS TO BE STOPPED BEFORE KILLING US ALL!

So how did this double standard come into being? Since I assume that you all know that Daimler Benz purchased Chrysler and that Daimler is headquartered in Germany, surely you must know that a Chrysler built in the US is just as "foreign" as is a Honda or Toyota that is also built in the US.

Perhaps it just comes down to a kneejerk reaction, i.e. you assume that Chrysler is "American" because it was when you were kids, so you easily forget that things have changed a bit in recent years. But since I assume that you read the business page on occasion and therefore know better, I am becoming more than a bit suspicious of some of you (and I do mean some of you, not all of you)...

reddogs

To repeat myself to the point of nausea:

... the discussion on the TRUE issue here, what constitutes an "AMERICAN" car and what we can do to change the direction we're going in and save the American jobs that GM, FORD and CHRYSLER represent. If Honda and Toyota and other imports have American jobs that they are creating then that comes into play. Then the second part of this issue is where does the bulk of the money go, does it stay in America to create business, jobs and oppurtunity or does it go elsewhere. This is what "Buying American Cars" means, that which keeps the MOST money and jobs here.

We have to look and sift through the various cars and brands and see what is made PREDOMINANTELY by American workers and using a majority of American made parts. Then take a fair and honest look to see if they fit our needs, it they don't and we find something significantly closer to our needs than those cars then yes go ahead and buy it.

My point is to give those cars and brands that keep and create jobs in America first preference on that basis, just like we went and shopped at Walmart when they promoted that they had the majority of their products American Made.

Whether its a Ford Mustang or Fusion, give it a posative or negative ranking dependant as to how much is made by American workers and the level American made parts. So those who do want to support the American way of life and workers can see what they can buy that will have the most affect. We have so many unfair and outright illegal advantages being given to some of the overseas manufactures, how about doing something fair and uprightly honest by giving preference when it comes to our buying, to correct these imbalances created by other countries to give their indutries a unfair advantage or allow outright dumping to hurt American business and destroy American jobs.

You never know, the job you may be saving, may be your own...........

socala4

To repeat myself to the point of nausea

I agree, you're really being repetitive. You do understand that if anyone is going to be able to "buy American" that it might help to know what that really means.

You still haven't told us how it is that a Chrysler owned by Germans is American, but a Honda developed and built in the US is not.

You seem stuck back in the sixties, when every car in the US market had a single country of origin, and therefore defining what an "American" car was easy. How can you expect anyone on this forum to turn your grand speeches into a list of cars to purchase, when you don't even seem to realize that Chrysler is a German car company?

reddogs

You don't have any data yet to prove the percentage for content of the cars made by the Big 3 and you know it, till you find that you argument is moot. Find the data, then we will rank, otherwise we go by the overall data of the company, the workforce and its financials......enough said.

We have smoked out your bluff of knowing the level of content of American cars, you have been exposed as a fraud and everyone can now see it.....I think its time to quit while your behind this time........

qbrozen

The "overall data of the company"?? Why???

So I guess I should buy a Mazda3 (manufactured and assembled in Japan) because its parent company, Ford, looks more "American" as a whole (thanks to all of its fleet truck sales)?? Gee, that solves everything!

You really talk in circles, reddog. I wouldn't be so quick to try to dismiss another poster, if I were you. Just 3 posts ago, you stated that imports with employees in America should be taken into consideration (leading me to believe you actually learned something here) ... then you post the same old garbage, once again, that we should just look at the badge on the grille.

socala4

You don't have any data yet to prove the percentage for content of the cars made by the Big 3 and you know it, till you find that you argument is moot.

I've already told you that a Ford Fusion is built in Mexico, a Pontiac GTO is built in Australia, and Honda Accords in the US are designed in the US and built in Ohio. You already have a poster on the thread who told you that a Fusion has 30% US/ Canadian content, and you don't need an MBA to know that a car built in Australia is going to have a lot of non-US content. So what on earth are you talking about?

Again, why do you believe that a German-based company using German R&D is an "American" car, while a Japanese-based company that designs and builds products in the US is building a "foreign" car? This is your philosophy, not mine, so it is up to you to explain it.

reddogs

Suggest a better way to rate or rank what makes a American car..

qbrozen

Look at the car itself, not the manufacturer. I've already stated that MANY times.