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Toyota Camry Hybrid

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Comments

  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    "No, when start from still, only electrical engine propell the car unless moderate or harder gas pedal action or speed over 30mph. So in stop and go traffic, only the electric motor in working unless sudden acceleration applied. This is why hybrid has higher mileage in city than highway.

    The battery will not "depleted" but no longer aid even needed. True, you are running by the gas engine only while the battery will be charged to certain pecentage, than the Synergy system will activate it for exessive torque needed."

    I think we are speaking of different hybrids; I was referring to the HCH, with the IMA, you are describing the Prius, with HSD.
  • usbseawolf2000usbseawolf2000 Member Posts: 759
    "Did you one say that the Prius didn't have Gears ?"

    I am back and a proud owner of 2006 Prius, right here in TCH thread =D Prius HSD have gears in the planetary gearset. It does not SHIFT any gear. The shift occurs in energy, from mechanical to electrical and vice versa. This creates high and low thrust, without the need to shift gear -- as in traditional transmission. The balance is controlled by how much HSD generates electricity. A breakthrough concept isn't it? IMA does not utilize this amazingly simple concept.

    "However, I think a transmission should be defined as the mechanism by which the engine power is transferred to the wheels."

    I disagree. You are describing a "Transmitter" as in WHAT transmits power. However, a "Transmission" is rather HOW power is transmitted. HSD does not have extra (dedicated) hardware to create the purpose of having/creating a transmission job. Everything was created out of simple 5 rolling gearset.

    Dennis
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Hey good to see you back. Are you lovin' your Prius?
  • usbseawolf2000usbseawolf2000 Member Posts: 759
    Yup, very much in love =D Passing power is awesome!! I don't miss my Celica a bit. Okay, just a little bit in the exterior appearance. Another thing I am surprise is how I can easily beat EPA fuel economy numbers in Prius. Imagine when the car breaks in and warmer weather come? Oh man!!

    Can't wait to test drive the TCH when it comes out.
  • spectrabluespectrablue Member Posts: 28
    The specifications page on Toyota.com now lists the Hybrid EPA estimated MPG at 40/38.

    http://www.toyota.com/images/vehicles/2007/camry/specs.pdf

    I am holding in my hand a printed copy of this page from when it was first posted a few weeks ago and it lists 43/37.

    And the latest edition of the Hybrid Synergy View newsletter, of which I just got today also lists 43/37.
    http://www.toyota.com/hybridsynergyview/2006/winter/favoritecar.html?url=button

    I bet this is our first clue that the EPA has completed their testing and the results aren't what Toyota predicted. This will probably mean the Hybrid Tax Credit value will fall as well. :mad:
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    "Did you one say that the Prius didn't have Gears ?" "

    I hope you realize this wasn't my statement.

    "However, I think a transmission should be defined as the mechanism by which the engine power is transferred to the wheels."

    This part is mine, and I stand by my definition. Transmitter? The thing that provides power in a vehicle is the motor, either ICE or electric, or both.

    I think you answered the original question about gears in your statement, I will emphasize the important part:

    "Everything was created out of simple 5 rolling gearset."
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    Actually my break point would be closer to $10 a gallon, which will probably happen in 2021. At that time, I might consider a low high mileage nuclear or solar car.

    Cheers,
    MidCow
  • grandtotalgrandtotal Member Posts: 1,207
    “It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.”

    Mark Twain. It's as true today as when he said it.
  • liaisonliaison Member Posts: 49
    Can someone explain what ICE and HSD mean. I have been away from this thread for awhile(mainly with the next gen Camry thread). Thanks
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    ICE - Internal Combustion Engine...
    HSD - Toyota's Hybrid Synergy Drive
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > "Full Hybrid" : means twp powers sources either of which can power the vehicle alone or in combinmtation with the other.

    Changing the definition to fit a product, eh?

    FULL means FULL.

    Since IMA lacks the ability to create & consume electricity at the same time, how can that possibly be considered the same as the HSD and Ford hybrid systems?

    THEY ARE NOT THE SAME!

    IMA cannot use electric propulsion to help climb a hill while at the same time recharge the battery-pack. That is most definitely a useful ability... one that ASSIST hybrids do not provide.

    The new Civic-Hybrid is missing that, so it cannot possibly be considered full. It is still an ASSIST hybrid.

    JOHN
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > Gears ?

    Don't let them drag you into a semantec argument. Gears shift. Since nothing shifts in the PSD, nothing can be called a gear. There are devices inside that carry power. So the term "power carrier" is definitely a better label.

    Whatever the case, it is crystal clear that many still don't have any idea what goes on under the hood. There are summary documents available, like this one. I strongly suggest they consult them before jumping to anymore conclusions.

    JOHN
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Gears shift. Since nothing shifts in the PSD, nothing can be called a gear

    They do? Gears in a differential don't shift. planetary gears do not have to shift. I would gather from what you are saying the system in the HSD uses belts and pulleys to transfer power from the power sources to the wheels. With NO gears in the design. Unless of course the motor is directly hooked to each wheel through a reduction gear, like the hybrid systems used in heavy equipment. Hybrid systems are as varied as the imagination. To try and say one is "full" and another is "half" seems to give a tunnel vision view of hybrid technologies. All hybrid systems have something to offer the buyer. If not they will not sell and will be scrapped.
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    That's a great example of pointless semantic arguing! Use whatever the heck label you want. In the end, they are still NOT THE SAME.

    JOHN
  • lanceqlanceq Member Posts: 16
    Will the new Camry Hybrid have any significant improvements from the 2006 Prius?
  • usbseawolf2000usbseawolf2000 Member Posts: 759
    A very good insight, John =D. Some people in here acted like they knew how HSD worked. After 2 years or so, they still don't get it. I am still seeing:
    - Incorrect comments about HSD system unable to run gas engine while in reverse.
    - Myths about HSD being inefficient on the highway (I can get about 55mpg on the highway. Name any size traditional car sold in US with any engine size that can match that). QED.
    - Myths about the need to replace battery and inflated cost of the battery pack. (The cost mentioned was actually a 4 years old number and prices have come down to $2,150. It is even lower than 4-speed Camry automatic transmission.)

    Dennis
  • usbseawolf2000usbseawolf2000 Member Posts: 759
    Not significant improvements. Camry Hybrid has many improvements that were made in the Highlander Hybrid plus more.

    When compared to Prius:
    - Battery pack makes 17 hp more (45 hp vs. 28 hp)
    - The main electric motor reaches 65 hp more (141 hp vs. 76hp)
    - Eco button to make the climate control less aggressive when the ICE is off.
    - 650 Volts vs. 500 Volts electrical system (More efficient and less heat loss through wire)
    - The Inverter and the powertrain packaging are smaller
    - I suspect, as in the Highlander Hybrid, there will be no more chain used to transfer power. See pics below for comparison.

    Prius
    image

    Highlander Hybrid / RX400h
    image

    That's all I can think of for now.

    Dennis
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I do see a lot of gears in the Prius hybrid system. I think you are mistaken about the cost of a new battery if it is out of warranty. If Toyota will replace the HV battery for $5000 it will be a miracle. Toyota/Lexus dealers are rip-off artists.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    As always, the skeptic. In addition to the warranty toyota now states that the battery life now should be at least 150,000 mi. This based on their own bench testing and 9 years of experience on the road. At 150,000 mi plus drivers have considered that they have received full value on a vehicle.

    And why shouldnt it go 250,000 miles with care? I will be at 150K in 3 yrs. I'll let you know.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Talk about coming up with definition to fit (or unfit) a product...

    IMA cannot use electric propulsion to help climb a hill while at the same time recharge the battery-pack. That is most definitely a useful ability... one that ASSIST hybrids do not provide.

    ;)

    Whoever came up with the very idea of "Full" hybrid. The originality lies in "parallel" versus "series" hybrid.
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    The point is that once a term is defined, it cannot be changed.

    That definition has been around for years. The first mention in my logs (webpage 45) is from late 2002, to document the video-clips I had just published with the purpose of pointing out how differently a "full" hybrid operated compared to an "assist".

    JOHN
  • usbseawolf2000usbseawolf2000 Member Posts: 759
    "Whoever came up with the very idea of "Full" hybrid. The originality lies in "parallel" versus "series" hybrid."

    A full hybrid like Hybrid Synergy Drive falls under neither "parallel" nor "series" hybrid. HSD is a parallel-series hybrid.

    HSD can utilize both modes depending on the situation. The simplicity and beauty of HSD is that it (computer) transforms and balances both modes using the same Power Split Device. This feature is already built into E-CVT.

    When GM announced their two-mode hybrid design, I was puzzled. GM claimed that their two-mode system is better than single mode design. HSD actually has no mode, because it varies and balancing act done by the computer. Then I figured that they were referring to IMA system.

    GM design has two statistic modes. One for the city and another for highway. The switch is done by a clutch. One has yet to see how smooth the transition will be.

    Dennis
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    A good explanation and discussion is at Toyota Georgetown's website:

    http://www.toyotageorgetown.com/hybrid/index.asp
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    I’m surprised that, having defined “full hybrid”, nobody has come up with the definition of a half hybrid yet. ;)
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    A full hybrid like Hybrid Synergy Drive falls under neither "parallel" nor "series" hybrid. HSD is a parallel-series hybrid.

    Neither is the hybrid system Honda showcased couple of years ago in a scooter. It is a combination of series (during cruising) and parallel (during acceleration/start up) hybrid, depending on situation.

    BUT, I would refrain from using a term like "Full Hybrid", it simply has more marketing connotation than anything to do with technology.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    The hybrid Camry has one flaw that I view as a big flaw and that is a lack of trunk space due to its battery.

    Oh yes I know the same problem is encountered in both hybrid versions of the Accord ,Civic and Lexus GS450H. Any hybrid sedan will have limited cargo space.

    That is why I think hybrid hatchbacks like the Prius makes the most sense( assuming an owner values cargo space).

    So what is the cargo space solution for the hybrid versions of the Camry, Accord and Civic? I think the perfect answer would be hybrid wagon versions of the Camry, Accord and Civic.
  • toyotamovertoyotamover Member Posts: 19
    MSRP is $25,900. That will be plus destination and any options. Option prices are not out yet. Fully loaded with Nav and Leather should be just under $30,000. The base MSRP is $5000 less than Accord Hybrid.

    Brian
  • toyotamovertoyotamover Member Posts: 19
    You will have the 60/40 split rear seat so the trunk can't be that small.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    MSRP is $25,900

    Not a bad price at all. I wonder what the price will be in Canada?

    Congratulations Kydspyder for your foresight in correctly predicting the hybrid Camry MSRP many months ago.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    That is assuming I dont usually have passengers in the rear seats. And that is not the case.

    The trunk space of the hybrid Camry at 10.5 cubic feet is about 12 percent less than the trunk space of my small BMW 3 series. And one reason I want to buy a new car is for more cargo space.
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    "MSRP is $25,900"

    Do you have a URL for this?
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    "That's a great example of pointless semantic arguing! Use whatever the heck label you want. In the end, they are still NOT THE SAME. "

    I was under the impression that the definition of gears had not changed since about the year 1700.

    "A toothed wheel that engages another toothed mechanism in order to change the speed or direction of transmitted motion"

    There are several such gears in the platetary gearset of the HSD, as can be seen on any diagram.
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    If cargo space is that important, get a HLH and be done with it.

    Or wait for an Avalon Hybrid.

    You get room for 5 adults, studly resale value, 40MPG, V6 power, and you have to have 15 cubes in the trunk too? For only $25,900?

    Toyota needs to stop screwing you over! This is a travesty.

    DrFill
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    You get room for 5 adults, studly resale value, 40MPG, V6 power, and you have to have 15 cubes in the trunk too? For only $25,900?

    Two highly speculative numbers in your equation. First 40 MPG: If the numbers hold true for the TCH over the other Toyota hybrids. The TCH will probably get real world combined mileage of 33 MPG. Second the base price on a 2007 4C XLE is $25,005. That would mean the hybrid premium has gone down to only $895. Not a likely price difference.

    If you get any TCH for $30k the first year I would be very surprised. It will be very limited and that always brings out the "Just gotta have it" crowd.

    And a 10 cu foot trunk was a big complaint on the Accord Hybrid. I like the station wagon idea.
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > And one reason I want to buy a new car is for more cargo space.

    "More" is a rather amusing term when it comes to trunk space. The Classic Prius appeared to have a smaller trunk than the bigger sedans. But in reality, it could hold more. The reason was simple, it was taller.

    So consider the cargo itself... which in many respects makes the Camry-Hybrid trunk much more practical than the model of Camry just a few years ago.

    JOHN
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    You get room for 5 adults, studly resale value, 40MPG, V6 power, and you have to have 15 cubes in the trunk too? For only $25,900?

    You mean 10.5 cubes for the hybrid Camry and 15 for the non-hybrid. We need to replace my wife's car that can haul both our family and cargo . The hybrid Camry does well with the first need but not the second one. I might as well giving my 3 series to my wife since there is at least more ample trunk space.

    Also I am still looking for real world reviews where someone achieved 40MPG on a hybrid Camry.

    In fact a Prius really does sound more appropriate for our needs (plus better MPG).
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    the Camry-Hybrid trunk much more practical than the model of Camry just a few years ago.

    How few years are you talking about? The 1985 Camry had a 14 Cu ft trunk.
  • toyotamovertoyotamover Member Posts: 19
    Ok - here are the option prices. Only 4 factory options, but there will be some Port Installed Options (PIO) coming but that will mainly be floor mats, satellite radio etc...

    Destination/Transportation: $580

    Convenience Package (Heated Mirrors, Drivers and Passenger Seat Heaters): $470
    Heated Mirrors (stand alone): $30
    Navigation System: $1200
    Leather Package: $1300
    Sunroof: $940

    That means a fully loaded TCH with every factory option is $30,390. That makes us dealers very happy and means I will be buying one myself. We have been guessing around $33 or $34K. Also have been told to expect our first ones the last week in May.

    That is all of the info I have (except dealer cost figures but I'll let Edmunds release those). Post any questions I will try to answer them.

    Brian
  • toyotamovertoyotamover Member Posts: 19
    I received the prices via email from Toyota.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    :) Thanks
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    Hybrid, Fully loaded cost: $30,390

    So it looks like a fully loaded TCH and fully loaded Camry V6 XLE is about the same price.

    I'll take the V6 XLE. Power over mpg for me. Plus, 10 cu. ft. of trunk space is unacceptable in a family sedan.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    fully loaded Camry V6 XLE is about the same price.

    You probably have a better shot at getting the color you want and a discount with the V6 XLE. The trunk would be a deal breaker for me also. I have big suitcases that barely fit in the LS400.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Choices are good. Enjoy.
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > The 1985 Camry had a 14 Cu ft trunk.

    *HEIGHT* was the subject of discussion, not volume. (That reply is yet another example undermining.)

    JOHN
  • spectrabluespectrablue Member Posts: 28
    I have in my hands the Toyota Camry Launch Brochure, distributed by Toyota. Part number 00616-07CAM-FLY. It has 3 pages focusing on the Camry SE and 3 pages on the Hybrid. It clearly states that for the Hybrid the combined horsepower is 192HP and the MPG is 43/37.

    Now we get the press release today and horsepower has magically dropped to 187 and MPG dropped to 40/38.

    I'll take those 5hp and more importantly the 3MPG thank you. You can keep the bumper protector and the overpriced floormats.

    I bet those 3MPG put a HUGE dent in my Federal Tax Credit... :mad:

    I know the disclaimer says that these are preliminary estimates, but I expect more from you Toyota!

    Oh, and my outside mirrors better be heated, STANDARD...just like you have been saying all along, including today's press release.
  • njeraldnjerald Member Posts: 689
    Sorry, too bad!

    It's priced $500-1,000 less than I guessed.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    *HEIGHT* was the subject of discussion, not volume.

    I would have sworn that you responded to the lack of trunk volume in the new hybrid Camry. The 2005 Camry I rented had a 17 cu ft trunk. Very nice size, so I did not have to rent an Explorer. The 2007 is a bit disappointing with a smaller 14 Cu ft. The Hybrid version is downright small. I realize that a Prius has more room being a hatchback. I cannot get by the looks anymore than I could the Aztek. I prefer elegant lines to chopped up looking cars. The 2007 Camry looks good. It is a shame so much was given up in trunk space. If you feel that is undermining hybrids you are wrong. It is letting anyone that reads these threads, know my likes and dislikes. Not really important except to me.
  • njeraldnjerald Member Posts: 689
    While I agree with you in principle, let's talk facts, not roundoffs.

    2005 Camry 16.5 ft3
    2007 CE/LE 15.0 ft3
    2007 XLE 14.5 ft3 + no fold down seats

    I did notice in switching golf clubs between an '05 and '07 today that the trunk opening on the '07 isn't as wide due to the aero curving at the back end. Not a problem, just an observation.

    While the Prius isn't as ugly as the Aztek, it is not great looking.
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    John1701A:

    Still don't understand gears. Here is some very basic 101 reading to help you out: http://www.odts.de/southptr/gears/gears.htm

    The Toyota Prius does have gears.

    Cheers,

    MidCow

    P.S.- Debate with Honda, Honda calls the new Civic Hybrid a "full" hybrid. I think Honda might just know a little bit more than you!
  • anniemfuseanniemfuse Member Posts: 66
    Question: How does one get the color and factory-installed options they want on a TCH when it is newly released without waiting too long? I have heard that some stores will get 2-3 a month except for in the high interest markets which will get more. I am in SE Ohio which I assume is a low interest market. Will they just ship colors / options that are most popular in that region at first, or popular colors with every option to get you to buy more options that you planned? e.g., I don't want sunroof but want convenience + leather (not sure about nav).

    Last year I negotiated a price with a local dealer and then ordered an '06 TC with exactly what I wanted. They had a list of what was in the pipeline to their region and if the one matching what I wanted had been on the list they could have steered it to their dealership. It wasn't so they placed the order with Georgetown. Five weeks later it arrived with everything I wanted but the dealer had put down the wrong color code. So I backed out of that deal, and ultimately decided to wait for the 07 TCH. I assume none of that process will apply to the cars coming from Japan - correct?

    I don't want to fly somewhere else to get a car, which seems to be an option some people choose.
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