What is "wrong" with these new subcompacts?

texases

This month's issue has this to say:

"A car like this should be fun and zippy. Sadly, the Smart is neither. The ride is harsh, and broken urban pavement, this car's natural habitat, pummels occupants mercilessly. The transmission shifts strangely, with pauses and heaves between gears. Handling is not so responsive, and it takes a lot of wheel winding to coax the Smart through corners. The slow, noisy engine makes it necessary to plan ahead when merging into traffic, although once on the highway it can keep up the pace."

ateixeira

I think it's good that they stick to their guns and list all the criticisms, to be honest. I think a lot of other media have sort of given it a pass because of the trend towards small cars.

The Today Show had a Smart as an example of the cheapest cars to operate in terms of fuel costs, and never once mentioned it requires premium fuel. :mad:

acheyfeet

Any Smart drivers out there who have had their cars serviced?? any info on who services them and how reliable they are?
Thanks

stever

Try the Smart Fortwo discussion where you should find more owners hanging out.

podred

Bet they could squeeze 30 in a convertible if limbs can stick out.

Yikes......your right!

Wow, I was off by a whopping 18 people.....Sheesh

I'm glad that you're thinking here, I was asleep at the wheel...ha...ha...ha...

bumpy

Toyota adds 5-door Yaris to U.S. lineup

ateixeira

Finally...that was a no-brainer. Bring all the small cars you have, may as well.

kyfdx

At least now when I catch the occasional episode of Psych, I won't be muttering that the blue 5-door Yaris the Santa Barbara-based lead characters drive isn't available in the U.S.


I'll be happy, too... The 5-door configuration is what you need in a sub.. (see FIT)..

plekto

I was waiting for this. The Yaris 5 door is great as the combination of the rear sliding and reclining seat makes for a very large rear seat area. Being able to get a typical American in the rear is a godsend.

Actually it's EXACTLY the same as the 3 door in every way other than the addition of two rear doors. But what a difference those doors make in how it looks. I predict it will gouge into the Fit's sales as the base model will barely eek in at $12K.

The Toyota IQ is also coming, evidently. This looks to be a Smart killer. Toyota reliability, space for that all important child or passenger in back(or cargo!), and tons more power. Oh, and less expensive by oh, about 3-5K!. All with 50-60mpg - a clear 10mpg gain over the Smart.

http://www.leftlanenews.com/toyota-iq.html
Let's hope that Toyota can pull a miracle off and get this to the U.S. It'll sell like crazy for the above mentioned reasons.(plus IMO, it looks better - less like a toy and more like a shrunk-down mini wagon.

My only gripe is

TOYOTA - If anyone from your HQ is reading this by some miracle - bring it to the U.S. *now*. Don't wait a year or two. I'd buy one in an instant.So would several people I know.

nwng

I was in canada a couple weeks ago and the yaris 5 door is everywhere. Since they don't have the xD up there, I wonder if it will eat into xD sales or toyota thinks they are two separate markets.

And the 5 door got all the bags standard, it's about time!

nippononly

IS VERY happy about the news of the 5-door Yaris. :-)

Did anyone notice that Honda managed to sell 10,000 Fits last month? That's ten THOUSAND, with a T. :-) :-)

And the iQ supposedly has seating, such as it is, for four, including two kids. The 60 mpg should attract a few eyes, since it is such an eminently practical commute car (as the Smart would be if it made a few more mpgs and didn't have the terrible lurky-jerky automatic transmission). I hope they bring over something for a transmission besides the CVT.

PS with regard to the Yaris 5-door, however much you think would be the MOST Toyota might strip it for the U.S., you should then add 20%. 6 airbags, standard ABS, and the fold-flat reclining rear seat? Not likely to see the inside of a U.S. dealership except maybe in the totally loaded $17K model. This is Toyota we are talking about here. But I do think the base 5-door will probably undercut the Fit in price, which is useful considering it is a 40 mpg car.

Edit.....OMG! Is the world coming to an end? I see in the Yaris 5-door announcement that Toyota will also make cruise available on Yaris hatches for the '09 MY! Will wonders never cease. Now the question becomes, why didn't they just offer it from the beginning...

kyfdx

Now the question becomes, why didn't they just offer it from the beginning...

I think because the xA was pretty much a clone of the 5-door Yaris...I think they just assumed they could capture the market with the xA.. The new xD seems to be a different vehicle..

nippononly

Yeah, the xD is no xA...

bumpy

I doubt the iQ will get 60 mpg once the EPA is done with it, though the jump seat and the Toyota badge might help it a bit versus the "I have to wait how long???" smart.

andre1969

I wonder how much it would add to the manufacturing cost if they just made it standard across the board? They've been doing that with bigger cars for ages now. It was standard on my 2000 Intrepid, but I think at that time, it was still optional on the Taurus and Impala. I'd imagine that by now, it's standard on many smaller cars.

Still, I guess cruise is really only useful if you do a lot of steady highway driving, so there are probably a lot of people who would have no real use for it. They'd probably be annoyed at the prospect of having to buy a car with it standard, knowing that the cost of it has been incorporated into the selling price.

nippononly

Toyota will do pretty much ANYTHING to strip down its cheaper cars in the pursuit of a rock-bottom base price. I imagine there are still plenty of people who don't want or care about cruise control too, so I can understand them not making it standard. But geez, cruise has been around for ages and ages, it should be at least OPTIONAL on every car sold these days IMO. I won't buy a car without it, since I use it every day.

bumpy: if they don't shoot for WRX acceleration times, I think they could easily put a 60 mpg iQ on our shores. The thing is tiny and light. Give it a 10-sec 0-60, and that will be no sweat.

There was also some talk/rumor recently that they might bring the Aygo to the U.S., which I think would also be a great idea. There's a car that can genuinely seat four, or two plus lots of stuff, and pull 50 mpg in that daily commute. Again, provided the U.S. model has the acceleration times the European Aygo does. If they make it a little speedster instead, mileage will drop. That would be a BAD idea.

podred

My only gripe is

TOYOTA - If anyone from your HQ is reading this by some miracle - bring it to the U.S. *now*. Don't wait a year or two. I'd buy one in an instant.So would several people I know.

I could not agree more! Toyota is too cautious, and conservative. Unfortunately they can afford to be. A fine example of their indecisive ways in certain cases is their Minivan which was only about oh... 10 years later than most. And yet they still sell them at a handsome profit.

podred

Toyota will do pretty much ANYTHING to strip down its cheaper cars in the pursuit of a rock-bottom base price. I imagine there are still plenty of people who don't want or care about cruise control too, so I can understand them not making it standard. But geez, cruise has been around for ages and ages, it should be at least OPTIONAL on every car sold these days IMO. I won't buy a car without it, since I use it every day.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not sticking up for Toyota, however every mfg strips their entry level models. Even my 06 MINI Cooper S, was very basic and did not include cruise, it was a $240 option. Considering they pre-wire every MINI for cruise and all that was involved was the switch, that's a handsome price to pay. By the time I was done equipping (I ordered the car) it with all the options I wanted it added another $10,000 to the price. Back to the Yaris, yes I do agree with you the cruise should at least be an option, but again, here is where Toyota, and Honda for that matter, ship cars to the dealers with "popular option packages" over which no one but Toyota has any control. Finally just a bit more insight into how Toyota and Honda operate. I decided I wanted a Toyota Highlander, I live in Northern CA, but found much better dealer discounts in Los Angeles. I drive down to buy a new Highlander, only to find that unlike Northern CA where they have heated seats, in So Cal Toyota "thinks" that they do not want them and I confirmed this after calling 12 dealers everyone of whom said, sorry no heated seats. Thus packages are shipped according to regions within the very same state. Sheesh!

nippononly

Oh yes, Toyota is totally annoying when it comes to what it "thinks" each region "should" have, and not making anything else available in that region.

But in the case of the Yaris hatches, it was not even a matter of "popular option packages", cruise was just unavailable from the factory, period. That needed righting, and I'm glad that for the '09 MY they will do just that.

It's just plain absurd that Mini Coopers didn't (and still don't?) have standard cruise at their price point.

My local dealer has a very nice Yaris 'S' hatch, white, stick shift, with power package and alloys. The sticker is about $15K, but it does not have either cruise or keyless entry at that price. So to add those two items if I were buying the car for myself, the price would be about $16K for me. That's the same price as a Fit Sport, which has those items standard, as well as better handling, a much better stereo, immobilizer alarm, a better stick, and two extra doors for those occasional back seat passengers (mainly my nieces).

I am glad that Toyota offers the Yaris, and will offer more small cars in the future, but right now I think the Honda is a better deal unless you want a basic, stripped car, in which case the Yaris can be had for $12K or less with a CD and A/C. I think those less expensive Yarii are a steal.

ateixeira

Let's see which strategy sells better - Toyota's a-la-carte, nothing-is-standard pricing, or Honda's one-price-suits-all, well equipped Fit.

plekto

Considering that I want a manual transmission, no sunroof(can you say terrarium here in the California Desert?), and no overpriced stereo($200 at Best Buy with the MP3 and IPod jacks) or navigation system($400 TomTom blows any factory setup away)... I have to vote for they Toyota. If all you want is A/C and maybe a few interior features, you can squeek in at $12K for a Yaris and laugh at the idiots who pay $3K more for a Fit or a Smart car. 40mpg average with conservative driving is amazing.

Three people at my work have bought them. I'll probably be #4 when the 5 door comes out.

ateixeira

What about a combined in-dash GPS + stereo? Do you prefer the portables?

We have a Garmin c340 and a Nuvi 200 widescreen.

plekto

That's fine, but really - $800-$4000(Lexus and BMW) for a radio and GPS unit is usurious. AND factory units are nearly impossible to update or fix without insane costs.

The new GPS units are amazing as well - little handheld device shows you local real-time traffic, where to get gas, where to eat... the list gets better every year. For a fancy map, the Auto Club has great local maps for free.

ateixeira

Yeah, I get traffic info for free from my BlackBerry, but I do wish it was integrated in to my Nuvi GPS.

I tested out a Dash model that had traffic info and even gas prices, but I found the traffic was very unreliable, only accurate about half the time. Gas prices were very useful, though.

With portables the innovations keep coming all the time, so they're not only cheaper, but likely offer more features as well. I want gas prices and traffic on my next one.

nippononly

Well, the Fit has two "one-price-fits-all" trim levels though. The $14,500 model, while not my cup of tea, still has all the stuff that most people want, like the standard power package (and the better handling, and the better stick, and ABS, and the immobilizer, and the...)

I think I am one of the few people left out there who prefers hand-crank windows and push-down locks, and I'm not real fussed about airbags and ABS. But again, if all you want is a bare-bones commute car to fight high gas prices with, the $12K Yaris may be just your cup of tea, and you might just ignore/live with the hand-cranks and lack of ABS. And I agree, any stereo you get at Best Buy for $199 is going to be way better than the factory head unit Toyota installs. I think it was smart of them to make A/C standard though - I wouldn't buy a car without it.

lewjac3

HI all, just got back from a test drive of a 2008 hatch three door, I was not expecting anything good, it was between yaris or the fit haven't driven the fit yet but, WOW, the Yaris was great, build quality was exceptional, low road noise, no rattles, manual shift was smooth shift/clutch was great. I was in fourth gear doing sixty and was no problem, I could imagine doing eighty in fifth and it would be very smooth no high revs. I might add the air condition was on the whole time didn't make a difference as far as lose of power. With one drive I really liked this car, I will now test the FIt because I like the looks better, but it is going to be hard to beat the Yaris.

stever

Just curious, but would the Yaris Five-Door appeal to you even more? Sounds like it will be here in late summer; it's already on sale up in Canada.

podred

HI all, just got back from a test drive of a 2008 hatch three door, I was not expecting anything good, it was between Yaris or the Fit haven't driven the fit yet but, WOW, the Yaris was great, build quality was exceptional, low road noise, no rattles, manual shift was smooth shift/clutch was great. I was in fourth gear doing sixty and was no problem, I could imagine doing eighty in fifth and it would be very smooth no high revs. I might add the air condition was on the whole time didn't make a difference as far as lose of power. With one drive I really liked this car, I will now test the Fit because I like the looks better, but it is going to be hard to beat the Yaris.

Well done!, Your experience mirrors mine. I was very surprised at just how good the Yaris S Hatchback drove. Then I went and drove the Fit. I personally found both of these cars very nice and very close competition. The major reason I chose the Yaris was nothing more than personal preferences. As I could not find anything that I did not like about either car. For me, with no kids, dogs or other "cargo" and being attracted to 2 door body styles in general, the Style of the Yaris was ideal. I also enjoy the larger, longer wider opening doors. I read in a UK enthusiast magazine that it's built from high stregth steel and that's why Toyota did not include a rear sway bar. They claim structural rigidity was increased. In real world driving I must agree. So for what it's worth, I don't think one could go wrong with either of these well built examples of todays small car.

iluvmysephia1

does the Yaris hatch and 5-door and the Honda Fit and the Toyota iQ all have ESC as standard equipment?

One of the few things my '08 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS does not have(even as an option offered)is ESC. But to me that's more than OK.

I don't see what the big conniption fit is anyway about ESC. If you need ESC to feel "safe" on American roads I kinda question your ability to safely handle your car.

But what about these new super-dinky cars? Do they all have it? Pretty sure the smartforsomeone does have ESC standard.

thegraduate

Today, in 2008, no Fit or Yaris has Stability Control as far as I know. The new 2009 Fit will offer it on certain trim levels.

andre1969

are there two different versions of the Smart? I saw one the other day, zipping around in traffic, that had two taillights on either side, vertical like on a late 50's Dodge. But then last nite, I saw one in a Canadian horror movie (forget the name, but it was one of those "Masters of Horror" things), and it had a more DeSoto-like triple stacked taillight theme.

Is that just a US versus Canada thing? Or maybe they changed the taillights in different model years? Or maybe the 3-taillight model was a nicer equipped model, kinda like the old days when they did that with Impalas versus Bel Airs? Or DeSotos versus Dodges?

fintail

I think the three light ones are older, and the two light ones are the new model.

bumpy

Right. 3 lights are the old 450 model, and 2 lights are the 451.

plekto

The 5 door fit comes standard with the reclining and sliding rear seats. This makes an enormous difference. The Fit also has this trick, so it feels cavernous compared to even a lot of mid-size sedans once you slide the seat back a notch.

Yes, Toyota makes no junk. They are myopic, will gouge you a fortune on options, make some really bonehead maneuvers, and their cars have virtually no soul or personality. But they make no junk.

If you want a basic box to get around for a lot less money than anything else the competition offers(except maybe Hyundai), the Yaris is a no-brainer. Doubly so with the much better looking and way more useable 5-door.

EDIT:
There is a 6.7% tarrif on non-North American vehicles in Canada as well as a routine 20% markup over U.S. prices(still priced as if the Canadian dollar was at 80 cents vs the U.S. dollar). So the Price in the U.S. will be barely more expensive than the current 3 door model is. (closer to $12K)

I just checked - A Yaris 3 door in Canada is 14,315 - base model with A/C. In the U.S., it's $12,210 for the base model (comparable the Canada's middle line trim, no less)

Kirstie_H

A reporter from a large newspaper is looking to speak to consumers who traded-in a larger vehicle for a small compact car to save money on gas, but spent money on options to get something more comfortable and appealing. If you’re interested in speaking to the reporter, please contact Chintan Talati at ctalati@edmunds.com with your daytime contact information no later than July 9, 2008.

Thanks,
Chintan Talati
Edmunds.com
Corporate Communications

nippononly

so many Minis now that they are sold out for the rest of the year, as demand totally exceeds supply:

http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080723/FREE/114049104/1528/- newsletter01

Those are sales numbers that most premium and entry-lux brands would be most envious of BRANDWIDE, and have occurred despite the transaction prices of Minis getting well over $20K in most cases and exceeding the average transaction prices of many midsize cars and most compacts....

kyfdx

Maybe sold out... as in.. you can't order one for 2008..

But, my local dealer has at least a dozen on the lot that aren't spoken for, and more arriving every week..

Not that they don't sell like crazy... and for full MSRP.. :surprise:

nippononly

No, that's what they meant: they can no longer build ones for dealer inventory and still keep up with demand for preordered ones. So beginning now, dealers will see a big drawdown in their standing stock for the remainder of the year. The "more arriving every week..." part is going to slow to a trickle, and maybe stop.

kyfdx

Yeah.. 34-37 MPG highway will move some metal...

nippononly

Plus the Clubman was even more popular than they had hoped it would be.

lewjac3

absolutely, that's what I am waiting for.

lewjac3

Not true, I have owned three Toyota pickups for the past thirty years, and I had to bring my 2004 in for a recall in 05, the dealer gave me a courtesy car and that Corolla was a piece of gaaarbage.

chicagodrive1

Saw a Civic in Vancouver with leather and a bunch of options sold under the Acura badge... wouldn't this sell well in the States?

nippononly

Well, you CAN buy a Civic EX-L right now, if you like. Has almost everything the EL in Canada has, except auto climate control.

thegraduate

We used to have one in the states; it was called, "Integra."

lemmer

He's talking about a 1.6EL (used to be anyway). It really looks just like a spiffed up Civic.

thegraduate

It is now the CSX, which was preceded by the 1.6EL and 1.7EL. United States Civic clones, for those who didn't know or couldn't tell.

andre1969

I know it's just a quickie badge-engineering job, like massaging a Vega into an Astre or a Cobalt into a G5, but those Acura Civics are actually handsome little beasts, IMO.

fintail

A friend of mine from Seattle wanted to buy one of those several years ago, and he went to Vancouver to see about it. The salesman told him Honda of Canada would not allow the cars to be sold out of the country (?!). So, he gave up on that idea, being too lazy to have someone else handle the sale and then move it down, or buy a used one. I have seen a couple of the earlier versions of that car around Seattle, so over time they have trickled down.

podred

Not true, I have owned three Toyota pickups for the past thirty years, and I had to bring my 2004 in for a recall in 05, the dealer gave me a courtesy car and that Corolla was a piece of gaaarbage.

The Corolla began as a great car, then flogged by the minions, what can one expect... beat to crap....NOT garbage by any means.