What is "wrong" with these new subcompacts?

alltorque

I'd actually say pretty much the reverse, from personal experience. Off-the-line is OK in most diesels but you're cog-swapping sooner than an equivalent gasser due to smaller rev band. Diesels do really shine once on the move; 40-70, 50-80 as they are right in the torque band without downshifting.

Highway speeds are no problem, (depending upon the car, of course). The Volvo S60 D5 with the 6MT pulls 0-62mph in around 7.6 secs and runs on to 140+mph and that's only a 2.4ltr diesel, not some big lump. The BMW 335d 6AT runs the 0-62mph in a claimed 6.2secs and up to a governed 155mph. The 535d is only 0.2 secs behind it.

As you say, diesels are lovely in city traffic - especially with a good 6AT - but they also excel at low-rev highway cruising..................and great pick-up at low revs.

nippononly

Toyota has released the 5-door Yaris as an '09, and it will only come with an automatic!!!!

I can't think of ONE plausible reason why they would do that, when both the sedan and 3-door come with a stick and have the SAME POWERTRAIN.

More and more, I just can't STAND Toyota these days...

:sick:

iluvmysephia1

when it comes to subcompacts. Toyota's "I'll make vanilla-flavored cars to appeal to the masses and then we'll make more money" thing is a big sell-out to true enthusiasts worldwide. They're lo-hoo-ha-hoo-ha-loooooo-sssss-eeeee-rrrr-ss in my automobile producer book. I like this new small Kia, the Soul crossover, and designs like this. They show some creativity and they share the love of automotive design in a more open and creative and delicious manner.

oregonboy

Puleeeze! Beauty may be only skin deep, but ugle goes clear to the bone! If that sucker had a big cross-hare grill, it could pass for a Dodge Ram. Square SUVish styling with heavy oversized wheels is so passé. :P

lilengineerboy

I think the European community is much more tolerant of cars that are difficult to use so long as the driving dynamics are correct (Alfa Romeo, BMW, Ford S-max w/"HMI" etc) and the American driving community really couldn't give a rats' backside about driving dynamics as long as it has 27 cupholders and the stereo is easy to use (Toyota Camry, Lexus ES350).
It also seems like Europeans like stylized vehicles w/shape while Americans seem to like more basic styling.
I think some of these issues also play a roll in moving vehicles back and forth across the pond.

andre1969

Actually, that thing looks sort of like a Mini to me. Well, it does if you stick your finger in your eye at just the right spot. :shades:

boaz47

I figured we had just about beat this forum to death and were waiting for some new sub compacts to talk about. As I came to thins post I thought we were in the future of the manual forum and I almost spit my coffee on the keyboard when I read your post.

Toyota has released the 5-door Yaris as an '09, and it will only come with an automatic!!!!

You predicted this yourself not that long ago.

nippononly

Oh hell, boaz, I hate being right on something like this and I hate it even more when you point out I was right. ;-)

iluvmysephia1

eyes to see the intelligence of that Kia Soul design then you just don't...ummm...have it. I can't do anything for ya then, man. Just don't tell me ya drive something like a GMC pickup, so my stomach can remain in a settled state. :sick:

andre1969

Just don't tell me ya drive something like a GMC pickup, so my stomach can remain in a settled state.

Well not a GMC, but I do have a Chevy pickup. :P Actually, I don't think that Kia thing is horrible. But it's just sort of there. Doesn't do anything for me one way or another.

iluvmysephia1

I'm just joshin' when I mention GMC, Ford, Chevy, etc. pickups make me want to barf. But my point is that I like a vehicle with some interesting lines to it. The Kia Soul has those lines, including a most-interesting headlamp cluster design. The rear end is most unique as well. It can slightly resemble a Mini at certain glances, but that's not the appeal to me with the Soul.

I don't see "beautiful" when I see the Kia Soul, but I do see cool and unique design, one that I would be happy to have.

boaz47

What I have always found interesting about you is you post part time what you believe and part time what you hope. When we look at the bean counters at the manufactures we see people who work off of surveys and trends. I have been on sites from some of the non automotive enthusiast asking for more Japanese small imports. Many, if not most, of these new small lighter fuel efficient vehicles come equipped with CVT. The new HR15DE 1.5 liter engine will be 30 percent lighter than what they are now producing and Nissan is talking about bringing it here but with a CVT only because, according to Nissan, the CVT will maximize average fuel mileage. Look at how many of the small sub 1000cc cars Japan has that are only offered in CVT.

It seems as if some of your predictions about increased small car production may be correct. But if you remember you also said you were worried about the simplicity of the CVT and that might be correct as well. Many have been asking for a small, easy to use, light weight economy car and the CVT adds a element of simplicity and light weight.

autooracle

There are so many makes and model's out in the world today that the U.S. is forbidden to allow. As emission and safety standards increase we need to push for other manufacturers to return to the states. Peugeot, Citroen, Alfa Romeo, Fiat. BMW offers the 1 series in a hatchback diesel obtaining upwards of 50 mpg. The Mercedes B Class is would be extremely useful... Prius? No thank you.......

Most of the manufacturers overseas have models obtaining over 45 mpg utilizing diesel a powertrain. With new low sulfur and biofuels, in combination with more efficient direct injection systems we need to fight for a change. As much as Americans forget about how much our politicians screw up our country....they still remember the soot blowing diesels of the 80's. . . .. I don't get it. . . .

lilengineerboy

AMEN BROTHER

fintail

Soul design? When Kias are seen as a good piece of design in history books, then one can pine about their styling. Otherwise, it's more Asian-bland.

iluvmysephia1

whenever I've praised Kia's for their looks I've been told that looks are subjective, that everyone has a nose and an opinion, that Kia's are bland, every excuse in the book but none that really address the factuality that Kia has always been more interested in superior, distinct styling.

Fact is, the Sephia blew away both the Civic and Corolla in styling.

The Sportage blows away the Honda CRV and the Toyota RAV4 in the styling department. The Kia Sorento and now the new Kia SUV, squarely pops any SUV it's size off the globe in the styling department.

The new Kia Forte is set to distinguish Kia as leader's once again in the compact size range.

And the Kia Soul crossover can't be beat for styling in the crossover segment.

The reality of it all is that Kia's future is so bright that they best be wearin' some strong Burton Cumming's shades. Just look and watch at the new Peter Schreyer-designed Kia models coming out in the next few years. These guys were already the best but they just keep gettin' betta and betta, brotha. :shades:

nortsr1

You are absolutely right, "looks are subjective" and I have to assdume from your post you like the looks of the Kias.

iluvmysephia1

yes, I do, and I did back in the late 90's. I even like Kia's design on the late 80's microcar, the Festiva, which Kia made for Ford. To me it looked better than its competitor at that time, the Chevy Swift.

I must admit I am quite taken by the looks of Mitsubishi's Lancer as well. I own a '08 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS. I love the currrent Mitsubishi "fighter-jet inspired" front end look. I never tire of my Lancer's looks and have been known to have to crink my head around and take another look(or two)before I head in to my house, a place of business, my workplace, etc. I really love the job new Kia design Chief Peter Schreyer is doing with Kia Motors designs these days. The new Kia Forte sedan, which replaces the Spectra, and the new Kia Forte Koup, which is a brand new model, are beautiful automobiles.

I try to give the domestic rigs a chance, but, until the 2010 Ford Fiesta comes out, nothing they are releasing to the public looks fit for human consumption. If a foreign automaker does is right I will reward them by buying one of their automobiles. Pretty simple formula.

fintail

"Fact is, the Sephia blew away both the Civic and Corolla in styling. "

I'd say they are pretty much a tossup. Nothing really redeeming in any of them. It's like getting excited about the looks of a toaster. These are appliances, they really don't even have "styling" as many would define it. I don't see any established "fact".

The Sportage is very bland, the CRV is more daring but kind of silly, the Toyota is another bland one. Again, nothing there. That pointless big Kia SUV is very derivative and I think was worked on by a team of ex-Toyota and Mitsu designers.

When Kia is raved about 10-20-+ years later for their excellent styling, then I will believe it. Until then, I see one person doing the raving :P

The Mitsu does have the glaring headlamp cliche seen on many cars, made to somehow look tough or intimidating. It doesn't work for me, although it is nicer to look at than the stretched lamps on many Toyotas.

Oh, and the "Koup" name is pretty dopey

boaz47

I admire you loyalty to Kia but much like VW my problem is with their poor dependability ratings. I know that individuals can get some good results by bucking the trends everyone else is experiencing. That is why people sometimes bet on the long shot at horse races. But it the long run the long shot will drain your wallet.

When I start looking for a new vehicle I look for function, Cost, and predicted dependability. Once that has been established I normally have a selection of four or five vehicles to pick from. There have been times in my searches when VW has been very high on function and Kia has been very high on cost. But they have both scrapped the bottom of the bucket on dependability for as long as I can remember.

The fact that Kia is the generic brand from Hyundai doesn't help their reputation any as well. Hyundai only bought Kia because they had to and looking at how far Hyundai has claimed on the dependability scale it doesn't look like they put that much effort at improving Kia. Just from the test results.

iluvmysephia1

does that feel better? You've trounced on Kia, they're gasping for air, and the two of you have done it. They're dead and gone. Zero. Notta. Zip. Over.

And out. :shades:

Not!

thegraduate

Fact is, the Sephia blew away both the Civic and Corolla in styling.

I'm not sure I'd call that "fact." Here are those cars, in 1997, and 2001.

Kia Sephia



Toyota Corolla



Honda Civic



If any of these standout as "blow-out styling leaders" please, explain it. All are conservatively handsome designs, which should age well (well, they already have).

andre1969

They're all yawners in my book. I can't really pick a clear winner, or loser. Now I always thought the 1992-96 Civic was a good looking car, better than any of that bunch posted above. I also liked the 1988-92 Corolla. It was a bit of a yawner itself, but had a clean, tasteful, conservative look about it that I liked.

fintail

Nobody is ranking on Kias as cars - they have came a long way and are not bad as machines. But, none are really beauties.

iluvmysephia1

second Sephia above, has much more interesting taillight and front end grille and headlamp design, in my book.

I don't what it is, but Honda and Toyota, try as they might and try as they may, have more trouble coming up with a body design for a small car that looks good. Interesting, inviting further comparison, however you may want to form the sentences.

I'll sum it up for this SW padre, all of the others are barfy looking. :sick:

Kia's designs are sharp, clean, intelligent and well-put together. That first Sephia('96-'97)above is rather plain. But things improved considerably when the '98-'01Sephia design came out. The new Kia Forte will continue in the Kia tradition of trouncing the competition when it comes to body designs. And, BTW, Kia build quality is above average now. The Long-Haul covers things completely, so to me it's a moot point. I would never balk, though, at buying a Kia worrying about some Canadian-built Excel's from Hyundai in the mid-90's. Hello? Can we move on here? Progress here? Kia and Hyundai certainly have and continue to.

Now, the value proponent and the looks proponent and build quality and reliability make a purchase of a Kia a very, very, nice and enriching move.

thegraduate

Kinda funny, actually, I think the better looking, more aggressive, and more distinctive Sephia is definitely the earlier model, not the '98 Escort-ish overly round newer model.

andre1969

I prefer the earlier model Kia, too. It reminds me a bit of an early 90's Nissan Sentra.

thegraduate

The roofline has some early '90s Lincoln Continental in it, a sharp look I always liked.

iluvmysephia1

yet still looks good to me. In person the '96-'98 Kia Sephia looks better than it does in pictures.

How bout y'all as to the '88 Chevy Sprint or the '88 Ford Festiva(built for Ford by Kia Motors of South Korea)? BTW-did Chevy build the Sprint theirselves?

I'd like to know if you like the Festiva's body design more, or the Chevy Sprint's body design? I prefer the Ford Festiva design, though, as I recall, I did like the Chevy Sprint bodystyle, too. These two cars were the first two new cars I considered buying, that being in the late 80's of course. I would've only bought one of them if I did buy one, BTW. :P

As things turned out, my first new car ended up being a 1994 Ford Escort wagon, in brilliant blue paint. Decent small wagon it turned out to be.

andre1969

How bout y'all as to the '88 Chevy Sprint or the '88 Ford Festiva(built for Ford by Kia Motors of South Korea)? BTW-did Chevy build the Sprint theirselves?

The Sprint was built by Suzuki Motors. Of the two, I think the Sprint was more attractive. But I thought the Festiva was laid out a bit better. One of my friends in college had one, and I rode in it a couple times. Roomy little sucker, up front at least. The Sprint seemed more cramped to me.

lilengineerboy

What I miss are vehicles like the Sprint Turbo or the Suzuki Swift GTI. The Mitsubishi Mirage Turbo and its Dodge brother were fun too as was the Mazda 323 GTX and the original and second generation Civic or CRX SIs.
I think that is a by-gone era though, and having anything be small AND fun seems to be beyond the realm of the current marketplace. In Europe they have the Focus RS and I think they have an upgraded Fiesta as well. Those would be something that might actually be fun to drive, as opposed to sephia's example of being fun to not-drive.

nippononly

Yes, the CVT is going to be insidiously tempting to manufacturers of subcompacts in the next few years, I fear. :-(

As for the ongoing debate of Metro vs Festiva, I would definitely go with the Metro, which was of course a rebadged Suzuki Swift, a car I very much wish was being sold new in the States today. Too bad we have until some indefinite future date to see that car stateside again... :-(

Having said that, I will add that I had a friend with a Festiva, which she called Snoopy due to its weird looks, and try as she might she just could NOT kill that car - despite years of total neglect it was still going strong at 150K without any powertrain work except for new axles (the CVs were finally shot just prior to that mileage)

boaz47

"Yes, the CVT is going to be insidiously tempting to manufacturers of subcompacts in the next few years, I fear."

It is the simplicity and projected lightness that makes it so tempting. That and the predillation the Japanese have for single automotive lines and limited engine and transmission options. Nissan is the tip of the iceberg I believe. Hybrids have given the CVT a boost even though they aren't true CVTs. As more cars move towards hybrid, fuel cell and EV the light weight requirement will move manufacturers towards simpler light transmissions.

For small cars and sub compacts to make it in the modern market they have to get lighter and provide far better fuel mileage than they do today. Yes they get better fuel mileage than a mid sized car but not enough over a compact to overcome the American consumers price per pound mind set.

Look at the happy horse manure we had in this forum with the predicted coming of the Smart. It was going to put the sub compact on the map with outstanding fuel mileage in excess of what a Yaris or fit could get by 10 MPG. Well it is here and they have had them on the road long enough and it simply hasn't lived up to the hype. 40 MPG just isn't good enough to give up a back seat. There is a reason it has been in the red in Europe for all these years and if they don't find a way to get 60 MPG from that little thing in will end up in the red after four or five years hear as well.

nippononly

Don't forget though that the CVT still has not reached weight parity with the manual. Just as one example I pulled up the Versa here at Edmunds: the curb weight is 2718 for the 6-speed manual, 2758 for the CVT, so the manual still has the edge. ;-)

And when I began all this talk I was referring to the Yaris 5-door, which will be at Toyota dealers soon, and is not a CVT but rather an antiquated 4-speed auto. Still, it is a small step forward, as it becomes the new champ of fuel economy among 5-doors available in the US. One day soon Toyota will feel the pressure from Honda and will begin putting 5-speed autos in all its cars (and dare I hope for a 6-speed manual or two as well? Their press release earlier this year indicated they had a pretty dandy new lightweight, compact 6-speed ready for use in the '09s)

lilengineerboy

One day soon Toyota will feel the pressure from Honda and will begin putting 5-speed autos in all its cars (and dare I hope for a 6-speed manual or two as well? Their press release earlier this year indicated they had a pretty dandy new lightweight, compact 6-speed ready for use in the '09s)

Don't hold your breath. Cars peaked in the 90s. The 1998 BMW E36 M3/4 (a sub-compact, in theory) was the peak of automotive revolution and we have been forced into evolutionary steps since then. Very sad.

thegraduate

For 2009, Nissan is offering a new base model Versa Sedan. It starts at $9,990 ($10,990 with A/C). The engine offering is a 1.6L 4-cylinder with 107 horsepower. It is not available with the CVT, only a 4-speed Automatic or 5-Speed manual, not the 6-speed manual offered in other 1.8L Versa models.

nippononly

that in a year or two Toyota will go head to head with Versa with a 1.3L Yaris designed to sell around $11K - A/C will remain a standard feature however. I think that's a good idea - most people want it, and a car without A/C is SO hard to resell, it's a disadvantage to the owner.

C&D is saying this month that Toyota is firming up plans to plunk that 1.3 into its iQ (recently introduced for global markets) and bring it to the U.S. in 2010! They plan to sell it as a premium competitor to the likes of Mini and ForTwo, which is a refreshing change coming from Toyota.

100 hp, 1900 pounds, 9 standard airbags including rear-hatch curtain for back seat passengers. And yes, it does have a back seat, 1 position for an adult (behind the front passenger, whose seat is further forward than the driver to achieve this) and one child seat behind the driver. This thing is cute as heck, and I hope they go ahead with these plans, and give it some handling to go with its very spry power-to-weight ratio.

Oh, and they expect it to make 40 mpg combined on the EPA test. That would beat the current gas champ, the ForTwo, which comes in at 38 mpg combined.

iluvmysephia1

Mack truck in a Toyota iQ, though, nippononly. It is a cute body design and a smart idea to import here, IMO. Should go over very well here.

qbrozen

You mean you'd LIKE to get plowed over by a Mack truck in a Camry?

;P

iluvmysephia1

you have a lot of posts on Edmunds, my friend! Wow! And I thought I had a lot of posts with 3702!

No, I don't generally like Camry's, or getting run over by a Mack truck while driving Camry's, but, I rented a 2005 Camry once(new car basically)and it was a quiet ride and a nice car, I must admit. I don't like their styling much, however. :sick:

qbrozen

Yeah ... I need a more interesting job so I don't need to escape to Edmunds so much.

iluvmysephia1

I'm taking advantage of a slow day to chat on here a bit during mid-day.

nippononly

was cruising around Edmunds Auto Observer in a slow half hour this morning and discovered the latest sales report. Everything is down down down, right? Not so!

The Honda Fit set a new October sales record with 6,478 sold, a 28.1 percent increase in the second month of availability for the redesigned 2009 model. For the year, Fit sales are up a whopping 51.4 percent.....But only the Fit and TL were on the plus side for the month.......Accord sales were down 38.4 percent in October, pushing calendar-year-to-date sales into negative territory -- off .3 percent

And although the Yaris subcompact dropped 13.3 percent in October, year-to-date sales are outstripping 2007 by a still-heady 25.9 percent, one of the better performances in any market segment

Corolla is up just like Civic, but Camry is down for the month and down for the year, more so than the Accord.

Mini sales buoyed the group with sales up 56.4 percent in the month; for the year, Mini is up 30.2 percent

And of course Smart had already exceeded its 12-month sales goal after only ten months, as of 10-31-08.

Midsize car sales falling, large car sales TANKING, subcompact sales SKYROCKETING. I guess it's not just the presidential election that's going right in the U.S. :-)

ateixeira

Gas dipped recently so we may see less of a skew towards small cars now.

nippononly

Don't even say it, don't even say it!

What I expect we WILL see a skew towards for at least six months is low-priced cars, an area where the subs hold a certain advantage...

;-)

ateixeira

Yeah, I think low priced cars will still hold the edge. A little less emphasis on fuel economy.

I'd love to be wrong.

Ghosn timed the cheap new Versa perfectly. That guy earns his salary, unlike many auto leaders.

boaz47

Cars coming in at 9 or 10K will perk up more people than a 15k Smart car. I would consider a Versa at 9k. I just can't see any reason to pay 12 or 15k for a sub compact.

ateixeira

True, but no A/C? That's bait-and-switch pricing. Under $10k ends up being $11-12k.

boaz47

I just filled up my neighbors S-10 blazer for her so she can leave for vacation Friday. $2.51 at AM/PM. I was so happy I almost went home to get my Tahoe but it is only down 1/4 tank. That is all the gas I used since October 22. But I did have to fill the Pontiac 4 banger at $2.63 the week before. I had been watching the papers to see if anyone was selling a small sub compact because of the economy but I think I can afford to wait till they come out with something better than what they are offering right now. If you can get a Compact or something even a bit bigger for 12-15K there is simply no reason to pay more than 9-10k for a sub compact. IMO

ateixeira

I saw gas in Deleware for $2.09! Cash price only.

On the NJ turnpike it was $2.53. Up in CT it was $2.79. Ouch.

Huge variation by locale.