What is "wrong" with these new subcompacts?

oregonboy

There is an entry-level $9,990 sedan. (plus $695 delivery)
It appears that there is $750 cash back on all sedans. (or 3.9% financing)
The hatchback starts out at $13,110

thegraduate

And that sedan's cash back is when you buy a 1.8L Sedan, not the cheapie 1.6L model that lets you crank the windows down for your "air conditioning." You want air and an automatic, it's a $12,000 car.

nippononly

there's $1000 cash on Yaris right now. The sticker for the base car really is just under $13K including destination. At that price you get A/C but no stereo. You do however, get four speakers. Funny, the things they cut in order to get a strippie base model.....

So for around $11,5 + fees you could get a Yaris right now. No, it's no $10K Aveo or Versa, but it does have A/C, something most buyers want in my area. Indeed, around here, no A/C is the kiss of resale death.

And more importantly, that $11,500 Yaris has 6 airbags and ABS (standard on every Yaris beginning with MY '09). Like $750 more for the "convenience package" puts the factory CD stereo in along with a few other doodads, if you want.

Me, I am less interested in the "economy" part of the segment and more interested in the "premium" part. I am eager to see the Fiesta in the flesh, and the Polo if VW really gathers up its guts and brings it over. Of course, the Polo will be built in Mexico, and the other VWs built in Mexico have historically been, let's say, "not too hot" reliability-wise.

lilengineerboy

So for around $11,5 + fees you could get a Yaris right now. No, it's no $10K Aveo or Versa, but it does have A/C, something most buyers want in my area. Indeed, around here, no A/C is the kiss of resale death.

Oh man, it was relatively recently that we both had cars with AC. The Galant, the Isuzu and the Civic didn't but the Accord and Contour did, We thought we were living the high life with the Accord and Contour, both had AC, Cruise and sunroofs.

And more importantly, that $11,500 Yaris has 6 airbags and ABS (standard on every Yaris beginning with MY '09). Like $750 more for the "convenience package" puts the factory CD stereo in along with a few other doodads, if you want

This is pretty cool. While I am not a super-fan of stability control, I think ABS is a great thing, and I think its awesome that Toyota and Honda have it standard on everything. The Nissan Altima got crossed off my shopping list because it was hard to get ABS in a cost effective package with a manual transmission when I was shopping.

GM used to have ABS standard on everything in the mid 90s but people said they would rather have a CD player.

oregonboy

GM used to have ABS standard on everything in the mid 90s, but people said they would rather have a CD player.

Oh god, that is soooo sad.
No, really.... I mean it.
You could add an aftermarket CD player. But ABSs... I don't thinks so. :mad:

Not that I would ever, EVER even consider a GM car for me... never.
:shades:

nippononly

We thought we were living the high life with the Accord and Contour, both had AC, Cruise and sunroofs.

One thing I would really like to see Honda do is make a factory moonroof standard on the Fit Sport, or at least the Sport with NAV. The Japanese model can be had with either that or a full-length glass roof. Give us one of the two in the States, Honda!

I have seen a couple with dealer-installed moonroofs on the lot at the local dealer, but it jacks up the price like $2000 in some cases. And I still prefer factory.

And it would be nice if you could get a Yaris with cruise without having to go aftermarket or pony up a bunch of extra money for the power package. But then again, the fact that you can't fits with its position in the economy end of the subcompact spectrum.....

nippononly

is going to screw up the Polo prior to bringing it to the States:

VW will sell 2 versions of Polo compact in U.S.

Volkswagen plans to sell two versions of its Polo compact car in the United States: a sedan smaller than the current Jetta and a four-door hatchback roomier than the one shown this month at the Geneva auto show.

Both versions would be designed especially for the United States, said Volkswagen Group of America CEO Stefan Jacoby. Sales could start in 2011, he said.

Jacoby spoke to Automotive News at the Geneva auto show, where VW unveiled its redesigned Polo hatchback.

Though larger than its predecessor, the fifth-generation Polo is still too small for the American market, Jacoby said.

He said a U.S. version would be taller and sit on a longer wheelbase than the European model.

http://www.autoweek.com/article/20090316/CARNEWS/903159987

So will they still sell the Golf? Or maybe they are just totally giving up on the Golf for the States.

Point is, they are going to take a fully redesigned car and redesign it again for the U.S., in ways that can only make it less agile, less fast, and altogether less interesting. :-(

The silver lining is that the article seems to imply they are aiming for a $14-15K base price point.

ateixeira

Checked one out yesterday, with rsholland, a Fit Sport that is.

List price broke $20k for an auto with Navi. Ouch.

Glass roof would make it even pricier, though I'd get the manual so it might actually come in right at $20k.

That's kinda pushing it.

Maybe delete the automatic and the Navi. Then you'd still have a decent value.

By the way, I liked the back half of the car, but not the front. The dash is a bit odd, the windshield is like my minivan, the passenger's seat is missing an armrest, the whole seat seems to float over the car rather than being a part of it. It's a bit overdone, and I think I actually liked the outgoing Fit better.

Despite the flaws it still may be the best subcompact around. I think I'd step up to a Mazda 3s, though.

Changing gears a little, I paid $22k plus taxes for my PRHT Miata Touring, even with the Suspension Package. Not bad.

While I was there, they had a MazdaSpeed3 model for $20.9k. They probably add freight, but you can see why a Fit price over $20k is in serious trouble. Let's just say Honda dealers had better discount them a bit.

stever

The Fit Sport we checked out was going to be over $18 out the door (no Nav). Too much money.

That said, I liked the manual pretty well (the automatic not so much). My wife didn't like the front end at all - dash to deep and steep, but mostly she didn't like not being able to see where the front end ended.

ateixeira

Bob came with me, and he commented on how long the front was. It's definitely longer than the outgoing Fit.

kyfdx

Windshield is too slanted and long... Anytime they add those little windows upfront, I have issues..

It really does look like a minivan...

Price? Who the heck gets NAV on a sub-$20K car? I think the price is okay, if you like the car..

nippononly

List price broke $20k for an auto with Navi. Ouch.

Now find me the next cheapest model on the market with automatic and NAV. Then tell me its list price. $24K minimum?

Honda, just like every automaker, charges WAY too much for factory NAV, and the worst aspect of the Fit is the NAV trim is the ONLY one available with VSA (stability control).

The Fit Sport with manual (no NAV) would be my ride, list $17,5.

The MS3 is a brute with too much power for FWD and a harsh ride. Different strokes for different folks, not really apples to apples with the Fit IMHO.

Heck of a price on the Miata, BTW. I'm sure you will love that car!

lilengineerboy

The new Fit looks to me like a squished Prius. The Toyota snub nose (not its best feature) and the side looks like a 2/3 scale Prius.

Color me unimpressed lol. As far as form and function though, the interior packaging seems pretty effective.

lilengineerboy

Now find me the next cheapest model on the market with automatic and NAV. Then tell me its list price. $24K minimum?

Suzuki SX4 Sport $15,739 + ~1000 for the auto. The highest model, the $18,639 sport w/ touring pkg has an auto standard.

I would say the Aveo and Cobalt have On-Star which can be a navigation system, and are much less, if lacking a display.

The Civic and Mazda3 both would be about 24k list but I don't think those are transaction prices

nippononly

Wow, Suzuki is putting NAV in the SX4 now? Pretty impressive. Now find me a model whose manufacturer will sell more than 10 copies this year, that offers NAV. I was thinking of the Mazda3 and Civic, as you mentioned. On-Star is quite definitely not NAV, much as GM would like to have us believe differently.

I don't think Fits with NAV are going for list any more than the 3 and Civic are - my dealer has a couple now with big red signs in the windshield offering about $1500 off to buy these top-of-the-lines. But the original poster was talking list price, which is why I referenced it.

I'm sure Honda won't sell many Fits with NAV, it's just their way of moving the model into "premium" territory. Factory NAV is consistently overpriced across all automakers.

stever

It's standard and it's portable on the SX4. No wires, no suction cups. Pretty nifty. It's a Garmin so it should be easy to upgrade the maps too. And you can upgrade it for traffic or gas prices I guess.

ateixeira

Agreed, factory NAV is way overpriced.

I've been looking and you can get some units for as little as $400 or so now. The one I want is a Kenwood, which has Garmin navigation built-in, and it's $600 to $800, the higher price would include Bluetooth.

Honda charges, what, $1800? Triple the price. Double with installation.

Suzuki gives you a Garmin portable with a very neat docking solution, and I think it hides away. Does the trick for cheap.

Mazda3, Mazda5, and Civic are too close in street price (all get bigger discounts) to that Fit and all offer factory GPS.

Your $17.5k makes a whole lot more sense. A $139 Garmin Nuvi 205W gives you a complete solution for almost $3 grand less.

oregonboy

Nav is in a transition right now. It's a "Premium" feature that the auto makers are trying to charge a premium price for. But the proliferation of very good, and increasingly inexpensive aftermarket Nav units makes the factory units a bad value.

An integrated factory unit is a desireable thing, but the auto manufacturers are trying to milk it for more than is reasonable. I believe that once the price drops to a couple of hundred, Nav will become as ubiquitous as power windows and cruise control. There will still be cars made without it, but they will be entry-level strippers.

Software upgrades and replacement/repair of faulty factory units will continue to be inconvenient and expensive.

oregonboy

Suzuki gives you a Garmin portable with a very neat docking solution, and I think it hides away. Does the trick for cheap.

I think that might be the perfect solution: an integrated, portable aftermarket unit.

nippononly

And the dealer is advertising Fits for around $1000 off sticker right now, so I figure my $17,5 Sport could actually be mine for $16,5....not that I'm in the market right now! :-)

To me, $16,5 is a reasonable price for a car with such versatility, features, and of course exemplary Honda resale.

The Fit is in a funny position - it's kind of on the fence between "economy" and "premium". I wonder if the introduction of all these new cheapie models (base Versa, base Aveo, potential base Yaris that has been discussed) will influence them at all to offer a more basic Fit, or perhaps some other cheaper JDM model.

On the NAV sidenote, I have to say I wouldn't pay one nickel extra to have it, and would intentionally avoid models that integrated it as standard and raised prices accordingly. I do think that Suzuki was very smart to just build the car with a custom docking station and then incorporate an aftermarket NAV unit in the car's equipment.

ateixeira

$16.5k is very reasonable, indeed. I think that's about where the price for a Fit should be, actually. Between an Aveo and a Cooper.

Honda's Navi was pretty good 2-3 years ago but it's definitely been surpassed. The Infinity system that goes in some Chryslers and Mitsus is better, for instance.

If you register at Autonews.com, they have some excellent video reviews from CNET where they "Check the Tech". They focus on the stereo, GPS, bluetooth, and basically all the gadgets in the car. Pretty cool summary and comparisons.

PS not only is the option expensive, but the updates are as well. Subaru charges $230 for a DVD update, though I guess you could sell half to someone on the other coast. Garmin charges as little as $65 if you shop around.

plan_man

On the NAV sidenote, I have to say I wouldn't pay one nickel extra to have it, and would intentionally avoid models that integrated it as standard and raised prices accordingly. I do think that Suzuki was very smart to just build the car with a custom docking station and then incorporate an aftermarket NAV unit in the car's equipment.

Amen to that, bruddah! I noticed Volvo has done the same with the V50 (and perhaps other models). I think that's absolutely the way to go.

Long time, no read Brother Nippon. I couldn't remember my old login for the life of me, it's been so long since I posted (email accounts have changed a few times), so I created a new one. Say goodbye to wale_bate and hello to plan_man.

My niece is driving a Fit these days. Impressive little beastie all around. I find they catch my eye in traffic all the time too...

ateixeira

Got a pic of Volvo's system? Sounds neat.

Suzuki did a good job. They kept the cost down and made it readily available. Plus it hides away.

Brilliant.

plan_man

Not much to go on, but:
http://www.volvocars.com/imageweb/13ed91d9-28ee-4264-ba17-46562d9a2673.jpg

According to the site:

Volvo has teamed with Garmin and developed a premium portable navigation system that mounts safely and securely in all new Volvos. The wide, bright touch screen allows you to navigate safely, keep track of your location, plan your route, select Points of Interest (POI), entertainment and much more. It even has pre-loaded data that will direct you to the nearest Volvo Dealer. The portable navigator comes fully loaded with detailed maps of North America and Canada, Puerto Rico plus over 20 text & voice languages to choose from. The system features Bluetooth® technology with built-in microphone and speaker...

So it's available for all models. On second look, it's no what I thought. Real integration, along with the portability, is missing from the look of things. Still, considering the way I most use a NAV, it's better than a dedicated unit, IMO...

ateixeira

Looks like a fancy GPS mount, basically.

If it at least charges the GPS unit, it may be worth it. Still very visible to thieves, though.

Suzuki beat Volvo here by a mile.

tifighter

I like the SX4; I think the sedan with the sport pack looks pretty sharp. It would be nice if they offered that package on the hatch instead of forcing the mini-SUV look on you...

nippononly

Wow, wale bate? That's going BACK. Was it you that had the IS300 SportCross? Do you still have it?

The last thing I will say about Fit and then I promise to stop, is wouldn't it be nice if there was a Fit SI? It could be sold without NAV, but keep the stability control and add a lower-profile tire and the K20 from the Civic SI. Sell it for $1000 less than the Civic, and both would find buyers I'm sure.

I am impatient for the subcompact realm to have more than one real sport player! I have high hopes for the Fiesta in that regard, but Honda is the ideal candidate for providing another sport entrant.

fezo

After hearing about the cheap NAV uunits for $400 and above I feel silly saying mine cost $130... It's simple but does all I need it to - and it's a Garmin.

I wouldn't pay a nickle to get a factory Nav.

plan_man

The SportCross is with me until sometime next week. Still a winner, and still a looker, but my little mule is making way for a red 2009 TTS that's on the truck as we type. That's why I'm around. I started reading for fun and decided to post.

What're you driving now?

And yes, a Fit Si would be a solid kick in the pants.

nippononly

I'm still driving the Matrix and the Echo, which is the most econo of all econo subcompacts! But it gets marvelous mileage, costs nothing to operate, and never needs repair (literally, never). So for now it's a keeper. :-)

But the next car is going to be something much more fun to drive. It would be nice if the CRZ would arrive as a hybrid with a stick, but I am kinda doubting it. If that's out, I need that Fit SI to materialize! When my Echo was new, it was the only game in the subcompact town. (Well there was the previous-model Rio and Accent, but that pair? No thanks!!). I want this end of the spectrum to take on more fun models. And yes, I am well aware that Mini exists, but they are pricey IMO, not to mention it would be 45 minutes for me to drive to my nearest dealer for the inevitable warranty repairs.

Fiesta could still be the dark horse that takes the crown. I hope they have an RS trim! :-)

ateixeira

I may do the same for the Miata. Is yours a Nuvi 205?

Where'd you get it?

Funny thing is, the car is so small, there's almost no place to put a 205W (wide).

fezo

Mine's a 255W. I haven't tried doing the dash mount on the Celica but could see where that might proved difficult. In a Miata it would certainly be more so.

bumpy

Well there was the previous-model Rio and Accent, but that pair? No thanks!!

The old Rio was a POS, but I feel the need to defend the honor of the LC/LC2 Accent. The manuals are good cars, and the GL trim made for a pleasant subcompact. I got mid-30s out of mine, and the most significant parts replacements were a few little modules on the intake manifold around 115k.

nippononly

Well, when I drove it (the Accent) before, was several years ago so my memory of it is fairly hazy, but I remember thinking that the Japanese cars were still a few steps ahead at the time. And the materials the Koreans used made the new cars smell quite funky.

I do think the current model Accent is on par with the Japanese competition and ahead of the domestic competition - well OK, the only domestic competition is actually Korean itself, the Daewoo rebadge known as Aveo. I haven't driven the current Rio, but I'm not fond of the styling or the pics I have seen of the interior. My main complaint about the Accent (I drove the SE, which is notably different from the regular models in many ways) is the crappy shifter, which problem was even worse on the previous model .

tifighter

The Accent SE hatch is a pretty sharp looking car. Besides the shifter, what else did you think of it? It got a great review from autoblog a few months back...

nippononly

Well it had good handling, was very peppy, much better dynamically than Yaris. Pretty nice interior, liked the leather-wrapped everything, thought the price was very reasonable, and since I drove it they have added cruise control as an option, I believe. Lack of cruise remains a deal-breaker for me, generally speaking.

Of course, since then Honda has also introduced a new Fit, which I would definitely want to test back-to-back before I went ahead with an Accent SE purchase. Not exactly apples to apples as the Fit Sport is a 5-door and costs $1500 more, but I would want the best overall car, and the Fit's much better resale would count in its favor in the final equation.

Between Versa, Yaris S (which is non-existent in my area right now anyway), and Accent SE, I would take the Accent for sure - if only for its MUCH better handling. But from what I remember of the last Fit, chances are decent I would take the Fit over all of them. I wish they made a 3-door Fit.

tifighter

Thanks for the write up. Around here, the real world price gap between a Fit Sport and the SE is considerably higher than $1500 (Hyundai dealers deal, Honda dealers don't), so the Accent really begins to look like a good value, and that's before the warranty etc.

I liked the previous Fit more than the new one, too :confuse:

nippononly

Only problem is, do you find the SE to be very rare in your area? It sure is in mine, but then Hyundai dealers in general are rare in my area, and most of them are an afterthought to the dealership's much bigger brand. They are often paired with Chevy. Dealers have Accent GLS's coming out of their ears, but not SE's.

And the very few Accent SE's I come across seem to be ordered more in automatic. An automatic paired with an engine this small is a big mistake, IMO. I would only want the manual, which is even rarer to find.

Hyundai's website seems to indicate that there is a $1000 rebate on '09 Accents right now (except the base GS). So right away that's a $2500 differential between Accent SE and Fit (Sport).

tifighter

Last time I looked into it, the main Seattle dealer had something like 8 SE's, with roughly 4 autos and 4 sticks. I haven't driven one; only sat in one at the auto show, but it felt roomier inside than a Yaris by a longshot. No Versa, but comfortable.

I secretly hope that its like a modern Suzuki Swift GT or something. But since this second car is really for the future-wife and not for me, its probably all for naught anyhow. We passed an aqua-blue Aveo and she thought it was oh-so-cute...

joem5

I have my nuvi in a bean bag from garmin.Solid as a rock too.

fezo

Yeah, I have the bean bag. It's amazingly stable. I haven't tried that in the Celica (used the windshield mount in there) but I've used the bean bag in the Ody and it really stays put.

nippononly

Aveo5s ARE cute! They're just terrible to be in and terrible to drive, and have very mediocre fuel economy for their class.

tifighter

Agreed. I have the bean bag too...its the only way to go. No more windshield mounts!

tifighter

Yeah, the cute scale is a hard one to crack. I'm learning that color matters, but I did see the new Fiesta recently while in the UK in a similar blue, so there is still hope...

stever

Forget the tD, Scion Will Unveil iQ Concept Instead



Someone will surely pronounce "IQ" as "ick'. :shades:

thegraduate

They could have the "sport" model designated with an S. The Toyota Siq. :P

nippononly

I thought for sure the plans for this model coming to the U.S. would die with the economy! I'm glad it still is though, I have high hopes for this little personal transport. Pricing will be crucial, they need to get $1000 under the Smart car somehow.

Kirstie_H

A reporter is looking to speak to consumers who purchased a larger vehicle but had considered a smaller vehicle when gas prices were high. Please send your daytime phone number to ctalati@edmunds.com by Thursday, March 19, 2009.

Thanks,
Chintan
Corporate Communications
Edmunds.com

tifighter

If I recall right, the iQ is more than the smart in the UK...

nippononly

Well, their original intent was to sell it as a "premium" microcar. Will they still try that approach with the economy this tough? I don't know if that would be such a wise course to take....