What is "wrong" with these new subcompacts?

andre1969

Yeah, it makes me think: what if I ran a Camry into a Sequoia at the same speeds, or ran the Sequoia into a city bus? Would all the results be equally bad? I believe they would.

Yeah, they would. Actually in some situations, the bigger cars might come out worse. For example, if you ran a Yaris into a parked bus at 40 mph, it might come out better than a Sequoia, because there's so much less mass to have to decelerate. When you run into something that's not going to budge, all that extra mass can work against you as it shifts forward and puts more force into the impact. And a city bus does start to approach the immoveable, although I do remember seeing pics of an H2 that rear-ended a school bus. The impact was enough to throw the bus about 10 feet forward and to the right, making it hop a curb. The H2 was penetrated on the passenger side back to roughly the passenger seat.

Years ago, in Baltimore, there was a high-speed chase involving an OJ-style Bronco, which ended up hitting a 1991-96 era "whale" Caprice copcar head-on at high speed. The Bronco pretty much disintegrated ahead of the firewall. However on the Caprice, everything ahead of the rear axle pretty much ceased to exist, as it was stripped from the frame and, for lack of a better term, mulched. The cop died instantly, while the Bronco driver only received minor injuries.

So basically, no matter what you're driving, there's always something bigger out there. And even if you're in the biggest, you can still get hurt. I know I've told the story before about one of my Mom's friends, back in the late 70's, who was in a VW Bug and got into an accident with an Impala wagon, a tractor trailer, and another car...it was a mess, but the only one who got hurt seriously was the tractor trailer driver.

ateixeira

Death rates for the Miata are average, while numbers for the Corvette and Mustang are far worse, though they are much bigger and heavier.

Still, it's funny how many people warn me that the car is so small and not safe, and some of those people own vehicles that do far worse.

There are so many factors. Weight is one, for sure, but just one.

plan_man

explained she was getting her daughter a used Exploder to drive as her first car, citing crash safety as her prime criterion.

Not much thought process there, IMO.

andre1969

Death rates for the Miata are average, while numbers for the Corvette and Mustang are far worse, though they are much bigger and heavier.

That's probably demographics more than anything else. I'm guessing a lot of people who buy Corvettes and Mustangs like to get the testosterone pumping, and then the next thing you know the paramedics are peeling them off an oak tree.

ateixeira

Honestly the buyer would be better off looking at braking distances as the #1 criteria.

When did people throw in the towel and decide accidents cannot be avoided? :confuse:

nippononly

For example, if you ran a Yaris into a parked bus at 40 mph,

Yes, but the point of the latest test is they are NOT crashing into an unmoving barrier. It is two cars each moving at 40 mph in opposite directions and crashing head-on into each other. Net speed: 80 mph.

For 40 mph crash tests into an unmoving barrier, Yaris received the top score of "good".

And what seems a little unfair to me here is that they tested small cars on purpose to make a point about small cars. If they had tested a whole bunch of models of varying sizes, I'm convinced we would have seen the result that "all cars are unsafe". Which we already know to some degree, although many folks driving Explorers and Tahoes (and pick-your-favorite-large-car-or-SUV) are in abject denial of said fact.

andre1969

those 35-40 mph barrier tests are supposed to simulate two cars of similar mass running head-on into each other, at 35-40 mph. Although I don't get it. How would running one car into a fixed, somewhat-deformable barrier, at 35-40 mph simulate two cars hitting head-on? Seems to me the only thing it would simulate is running at 35-40 mph into a parked car.

Anyway, seeing what happens to those little cars when they smack head-on into bigger models doesn't surprise me. And even though I have a preference for bigger cars, it really doesn't scare me that much, either, as those are some pretty serious impacts they were re-creating. The main thing that scares me about some small cars is that my knees are so close to the dashboard, that it wouldn't take much of a penetration to get me wedged in that car....or my legs snapped!

And to be fair, there are bigger cars with the same problem. There was some Jag I sat in, I think it was the S-type, where the ignition switch actually got in the way of my right knee!

texases

"those 35-40 mph barrier tests are supposed to simulate two cars of similar mass running head-on into each other, at 35-40 mph. Although I don't get it. How would running one car into a fixed, somewhat-deformable barrier, at 35-40 mph simulate two cars hitting head-on? Seems to me the only thing it would simulate is running at 35-40 mph into a parked car. "

If the barrier is 'somewhat deformable', you're right. The test only works if no deformation occurs in the barrier. Think 3 feet of reinforced concrete anchored 10 feet deep.

stever

My wife and I went to a Kia dealer this afternoon and looked at the 5 or 6 Souls they had on the lot. We were both disappointed with our first impression. So much so that we didn't even ask for a test drive. Didn't live up to the hype. The salesperson wasn't too interested either (in us or the car). They did have the humorous $1800 ADM on a sticker.

Then we went to the GM store and chit-chatted about Vibes for a while. Good, non- commissioned salesperson. They had a 1.8l 5 speed on the floor for ~$11,500 (figure $12.5k OTD with 6% tax and fees). Lot more bang for the buck than some of the subcompacts.

Unfortunately the base has no power windows or doors, cruise or steering wheel radio controls. It did have AC, tint and an AUX jack. They may be able to add some of that stuff for another two grand.

As far as subcompacts go, the xD is still the leader vs the Versa and Fit. Haven't looked at the Yaris or Rio or Aveo.

snakeweasel

For example, if you ran a Yaris into a parked bus at 40 mph, it might come out better than a Sequoia, because there's so much less mass to have to decelerate.

Not only that but when you increase mass you increase the amount of force that object is exhorting. A Sequoia doing 40 MPH is going to have the same force behind it as a Yaris doing over 62 MPH.

snakeweasel

Death rates for the Miata are average, while numbers for the Corvette and Mustang are far worse, though they are much bigger and heavier.

My guess is that the average Miata driver is not driving the same as the average Corvette and Mustang drivers.

iluvmysephia1

forgotten. How's Chicago, the Miracle Mile, Geneva, the Sears Tower and the John Hancock building doing?

Still a staunch advocate of Hyundai and do you still have your Elantra wagon? Speaking of compact cars, if not subcompact cars.

snakeweasel

How's Chicago, the Miracle Mile, Geneva, the Sears Tower and the John Hancock building doing?

Trying to stay out of Chicago, Geneva is still Geneva, lots of interesting shopping. The Sears Tower? What is that?

Still a staunch advocate of Hyundai and do you still have your Elantra wagon?

Still and advocate of Hyundai, but alas after 9 years and 162K trouble free miles the Elantra wagon is gone. I was going to keep it another year or so but she who must be obeyed wanted to get a convertible and I found a real great deal on a year old used Sebring so we decided to take it.

But hey we still have the Accent and another Elantra could very well be in the future.

stewpidaso

I notice the vehicles they used in this test were all foreign manufacturers; accord into fit, camry into yaris, smart car (american but independent)into some other mid-sized sedan. I wonder if this is an attempt either by the media or domestic manufacturers to smear foreign automotive manufacturers. why didn't they for instance crash an aveo into a malibu? domestic automakers really don't have an answer to superior foreign subcompacts. so they just smear the whole subcompact lineup across the board in hopes people will buy larger vehicles preferably domestic. Just my conspiracy theory and $.02 trying to herd all the sheep.

igozoomzoom

Considering that the Accord was built in Marysville, Ohio and the Camry in Georgetown, Kentucky, that would be a pretty dumb move, IMO.

If they had used the Chevy Impala, Buick Lacrosse, Ford Fusion, Mercury Milan or Lincoln MKZ- THOSE are foreign made cars! The GM models in Oshawa, Ontario, Canada and the Ford products in Hermosillo, Mexico!

Crashing an Impala (Canadian) into an Aveo (South Korean) would be amusing....

iluvmysephia1

well, a Sebring convertible sounds nice. Obama is guaranteeing the Warranty work on her car, then, yes? That's a pretty decent bodystyle on that car, and a convertible would look nice for that car.

One place I like when in Chicago is Navy Pier. Just about every sort of specialty shop available on the planet, lots of food to choose from, and a large ferris wheel to ride on. When there in 1996, my bro-in-law and son went on a ride on Navy Pier that I will never forget. It was a white spaceship-looking thing, we were offered the "final ride a the night $5 special."

The theme was space railroadin', and you want a fast and freaky ride? The special effects on the screen in front of you, combined with all the shaking back and forth and up and down they do with your seat(seatbelts are not optional on this ride, you have to put them on for him to start the ride), really gives you the distinct impression that you're really on a train in space on a fast and crazy roller coaster. I've never been on anything like that ride since. Not sure I want a repeat or not, but it was fun!

ateixeira

That's a shame, they look kinda fun from a distance.

The ad with the Guinea Pigs are funny, too, even my kids laughed.

That ADM would price it up with leftover 2008 Miatas, the rebate is now $5000! If a 2 seater will do consider one of those, base models are in the $16k range now, believe it or not.

An $11k Vibe sounds intruiging, too, at that price you can overlook a lot. How much for a decently equipped one?

stever

The outside of the Soul looked fine; not all that "cute" or daring, but fine. It was the inside, with all the usual hard plastics in a lower end vehicle that soured us so fast. The seating position wasn't all that high feeling, even with the driver's seat pumped up. Looking forward, you still felt like you were looking over the hood a bit. The fold down split rear seats worked good.

The Vibe is a killer deal I think. The dealer would add power windows/locks/keyless entry and cruise for ~$2k, bringing the price on the base Vibe before tax and fees to $13,937. The automatics were running around $15k with power everything and sunroofs. There's a $1500 or 0% incentive going on around here currently.

A base Miata for $16k? I didn't think you could get into one of those for less than $22k (and I guess you can't if you go with the current model year). Call it $17k OTD, sell the Outback for $5k, and that would be sweet and relatively cheap. I don't think my wife wants to tool around in the minivan for another decade though. :shades:

dtownfb

Nawww. I'm sure a Malibu into an Aveo would have the same results.

maybe they only tested cars built by companies that will still be in existence after May 31st????

ateixeira

I bought out-the-door for $23.8k, this a Touring PRHT with the suspension package.

Drop another $2500 off that price, you get to $21.3k, out the door remember. Can't believe it's April, Spring, and they lower the price like that. :sick:

Plus, you could get the cheaper soft top (more than a grand off), not pay for the suspension package ($430 at invoice), and go for the Sport model (more than a grand off again), which is also cheaper.

You're easily in to the teens. And it's a sports car, not an economy car.

Honestly at prices near the ForTwo you'd have to be crazy to pick the Smart.

stever

I'd love it I'm sure, but it's not quite practical enough for the better half. Most of the used ones around here are in the low teens.

plekto

notice the vehicles they used in this test were all foreign manufacturers

No, it was:
Mid-size Honda versus compact Honda
Mid-size Toyota versus compact Toyota
Compact Mercedes versus sub-compact/minicar Mercedes

The results would have been the same running an Aveo into a G6 or a Focus into a Mustang. Small always loses and at best comes out somewhat even. There's no realistic way to make a 2000lb car do well versus a 3500lb sedan. But we all knew this, really. VW Bugs were deathtraps. And so were the fist Hondas. And so was the Suzuki Swift/Geo Metro. And so was the Ford Escort. And...

I'd personally recommend a much more realistic test, though. Rear impact at 35-40mph and the car sitting 3-5 feet away from a concrete wall(or say a big truck). This sort of accordion effect crash is extremely common. But I'd expect the same results, pretty much.

nippononly

a bit more of the press coverage of the IIHS small car tests, and I noticed this near the bottom of the response from the Smart Cars president:

"Customers drive small cars for reasons other than fuel economy, including value, parking convenience, and fun, he added."

Darn right they do! :-)

scwmcan

if you didn't notice they picked "mini" cars that were top rated in their standard crash tests and used midsized cars from the same company that were also top rated, they wanted to show the best of one size hitting the best of the other size, I also don't see any american branded "mini" cars out there (besides the Aveo which was not rated well in crash testing) so it would be hard to test a car that doesn't exist.
To me the most intesting this was how badly the Camary did compared to the other mid sized cars, the dummy's head hit the teering wheel through the air bag, and the seat tilted forward, not quite as severly as the yaris but still not good, I have a feeling that toyota has some work to do in the area of safety (scary when you consider it is the top selling car in America)
Scott

igozoomzoom

What if they had tested a Volvo C30 (2-dr hatchback) against an S80 (near full-size)?

andre1969

I imagine the C30 would have held up fairly well, at least better than the tested cars. Aren't they actually fairly heavy, for small cars?

My guess would be that it would be about the equivalent of running a Civic into an Accord, or a Corolla into a Camry. The smaller cars would still "lose", but would come off better than a Fit or Yaris.

igozoomzoom

The C30 weighs about 3200lbs and the S80 is 4100lbs, so there's about 900lbs difference. The S80 is just over 2feet longer than the C30, but only 7in difference in wheelbase (probably because the C30's rear doesn't have an overhang since it's a hatchback.

I think it'd be interesting because the smaller car would perform as well as the larger one...then again, a large Volvo is probably the equivalent of a six-star rating on a five-star scale!

nippononly

To restart sales, Mini turns to incentives

April 20, 2009 - 12:01 am ET

With sales plunging for the first time, Mini USA has violated its no-incentive rule for the past few months with a low-interest financing offer that the brand continues to sweeten.

BMW AG's premium small-car brand lowered its incentive to 1.9 percent for 36 months through this month. And starting in April, the company offered the same rate to customers whose FICO credit scores border on subprime.

.....In February, Mini turned to incentives out of frustration.

.....Mini's sales rose 28.6 percent to 54,077 units in 2008. But sales this year have fallen every month and declined 16.2 percent to 8,513 in the first quarter.

http://www.autonews.com/article/20090420/ANA06/304209975/1078
(registration link)

If Mini can't sell Coopers, the subcompact craze may come to an end before it has begun! :-(

Toyota has had cash back on the Yaris for a number of months now, and that has to hurt on a model that not only has such small margins but also is built in Japan and imported, making it subject to losses from the yen exchange rate. Honda doesn't incentivize the Fit, but inventory has risen as the slowing auto market began to impact it as well.

I hope Ford and VW don't see this and chicken out of bringing over the Fiesta and (potentially ) Polo.

stever

"Big trumps little in any crash. I get it. So the IIHS seems to say we should try to buy as much safety as we can. So we buy a Yukon in case, if we're crossing an intersection, and some idiot runs the red light and runs into us, we will be protected.

But what if we're driving the Yukon through an intersection and decide we really need to make a cell phone call at this very moment. We reach for the cell phone, miss the light and run into a Smart car. We might just say, "Did I hit a speed bump or something?" and just go on with the phone call.

In other words, we've become safer by endangering other people. Another way of putting it is, larger cars foster a false sense of security and promote reckless behavior. That's clear by watching which vehicle type has the most aggressive drivers. I have my own ideas but I'm sure two vehicle classes are crowding to the front of your mind right now."

Small Car Safety: Where Do You Draw the Line on Your Responsibility? (Edmunds Daily)

andre1969

I have my own ideas but I'm sure two vehicle classes are crowding to the front of your mind right now."

BMW owners and motorcycle riders? :P

kyfdx

It kind of sucks that the cheapest, most fuel efficient cars have some of the highest insurance rates.. And, the big, bad, terrible SUVs have the lowest..

So... buy a small car to save on fuel, and pay more for insurance...

The question for all the black helicopter fans: Are economy car insurance rates higher because of higher insurance payouts, or some sort of red-lining of lower income clients?

andre1969

The question for all the black helicopter fans: Are economy car insurance rates higher because of higher insurance payouts, or some sort of red-lining of lower income clients?

I dunno...my insurance rate has tended to be affected more by my driving record, age (dropped when I turned 30, again when I turned 35, and I think it drops again when I turn 40), where I live (it went up when I moved to a different zipcode in 2004), and distance to work (always fairly close...had been about 13 miles, now 3.5), rather than the type of car I had.

But then, I've never had a small car. The smallest car I've ever owned was a 1988 LeBaron turbo coupe, but I was married then and got a cheaper rate. I think that car was around $800-900 per year for full coverage.

kyfdx

I traded a CR-V for an Impreza, and my rates went up 25% on that car.. The Subaru (base 4-cyl) is more than our BMW X3... :surprise:

I thought I just picked the wrong car, until I started looking at State Farm's website.. Within each make, the SUV models are almost always the cheapest rates, and economy cars the highest.

The comparisons were with all other factors being equal (same driver, same commute, etc).

kyfdx

State Farm make/model insurance ratings

andre1969

that big trucks and SUVs might carry such low premiums is simply because the majority of accidents are single-car accidents. So in the overall scheme of things, how much damage a big hulking Yukon can do to a petite little Aveo, or any car for that matter, is relatively moot. Of course, that's little consolation if you happen to get hit by one!

nippononly

It also may be no coincidence that the Impreza is built in Japan while the CRV and X3 are built here. That makes replacement parts cheaper for the BMW and Honda than for the cheapest-of-the-three Impreza, which is a factor in your rates for collision and comp.

None of the subs sold here today are built here. Honda may be the first to change that, with their current plans to open a new plant here. Of course, that may be on hold, I can't recall the last thing I read on that.

By contrast, most compacts sold here are built in North America....

kyfdx

Hmm... X3 is built in Austria... The new model (whenever that happens) will be constructed in South Carolina, but almost all of the parts will still come from Germany (80% or more).

Most older CR-Vs were built in England and Japan... It's just the new model that's being built here..

I'm going with the demographics theory... , though it's likely a combination of many factors..

ateixeira

Score one for small cars...

My fleet includes:

Car Vehicle Safety Discount
Sienna 10%
Forester 20%
Miata 30%

The smallest car has the biggest discount, with State Farm, at least.

kyfdx

I noticed a lot of specialty cars had low rates...

Caymans and Boxsters, etc...

Again, I think it's the demographics, and that possibly those cars are used less for commuting..

ateixeira

My 93 Miata was the cheapest of my 3 cars to insure.

Now with a new 2008 it's in the middle.

I guess small cars have lower liability.

ateixeira

Steve: perhaps this is purely a matter of expectations, but I checked one out at the NY Auto Show and I had the opposite impression. I was pleasantly surprised.

I liked it better than the Cube we saw, though we could not get in the Cube.

Materials are nothing to brag about, but there were all put together well, and fit and finish were impressive for the price.

The boxy design is practical and roomy, the interior is airy and seems almost mid-sized. The center console and dash look like a snow board - a neat design feature.

That plus I thought the fabrics used were playful and fun.

Again, for the price, you sort of expect an unassuming, boring car, and the Soul actually had a little spunk.

Just my $0.02.

stever

Now wait a minute - if the dash had looked like a snowboard, I sure would have noticed that.

Haven't seen a Cube yet.

I think part of the problem with us is that my wife was excited about the Soul for the last 4 months. Every time she ran across an article or link, she'd make me read it. Familiarity must have bred contempt because it was a letdown in person.

With your .02 and my .02, we're almost up to a piece of Double-Bubble.

fintail

That might be it. Maybe high expectations and excitement took over. Remember, it's a Kia, and a cheap one at that. Cheap and cheerful is all to expect.

stever

Remember, it's a Kia

That was part of the attraction too. We've always liked cheap underdog cars and have always had great luck with them ('82 Tercel instead of an Omni or Civic, '89 Voyager instead of a Caravan, '99 Quest instead of a Sienna or Odyssey). The Outback is still a bit of a niche car, but probably the most mainstream one we've ever had.

Well, the Tercel was basic but pretty popular and not the cheapest subcompact in its day I suppose.

fintail

Comparing the Soul to something like that Tercel shows there has been some progress in 25 years.

Come a few hundred miles west and an Outback is very mainstream, at least they seem to be around Seattle.

stever

One reason we didn't get one before was because all our friends in Anchorage had them. That's where our '97 came from in fact. There are plenty around town here, but not so much in the rest of the state, which is pretty much pickup country.

Maybe Fiat will make it over and we can get one of these:


See more Car Pictures at CarSpace.com

oregonboy

Oh gawd! I hope not!
:P

snakeweasel

I hate to tell you this but it looks like they took the top half of a Smart and put it on the bottom half of some Euro compact. Yuck

alltorque

The white Fiat is the old Multipla and it was a really distinctive vehicle - but not pretty. Very practical with 6 good seats, (2 rows of 3), in a no-nonsence package approx 4 metres overall length and a tall 4 door + hatchback design. Interior was very funky. It has now been replaced by a much more mainstream body design which is a real shame. Still retains its diesel options, though.

ateixeira

They were sold in Brazil, and the funny thing is it appealed to executive bankers, for whatever reason. You'd see them parked in the VIP reserved parking spaces at banks.