What is "wrong" with these new subcompacts?

bpizzuti

That is a bit surprising but only a bit: they weren't plastering themselves all over the airwaves like some others (Toyota, Hyundai, Dodge, Ford...etc). I think that particular corporate attitude and their relatively high pricing came back to bite them this time.

stever

I think Honda also dropped most incentives last month (or even in June) since they didn't have much inventory in the pipeline anyway.

Some of y'all may want to drop in on this Edmunds Answers question from someone comparing the Suzuki SX4, Nissan Cube, VW Rabbit and Toyota Yaris.

bpizzuti

The Cube isn't a subcompact. Come to think of it, neither is the Versa. Too much room inside those things, heh. I was "this" close to getting one of those but I ended up liking the Elantra Touring too much.

tifighter

Interesting, although I don't think the Aveo has EVER rated better than the Yaris at much of anything.

And no, I am not a Yaris fanboy.

bpizzuti

Consumer Reports thinks the Aveo is better than the Yaris. For that to happen, the Yaris has to be a real dog. :shades:

Mind you i don't like the Aveo either...I think the Accent and Versa are the pinnacle of subcompact-ness.

ateixeira

Besides, NO ONE takes GM and the Aveo/Cobalt seriously

I'm not fan of the Aveo, but that's pretty brutal.

Isn't the Aveo the best seller in the subcompact segment?

Sales aren't everything, but surely they mean something.

bpizzuti

Depends on how much they're selling them for and if they're making a profit, or just taking whatever they can get just to get them off of the lot. GM has a habit of doing that too.

ateixeira

That kind of volume brings economies of scale.

Plus they're built in Korea for probably not a whole lot of $$$.

tifighter

You guys see the Top Gear segment a few weeks ago where they drive the Daewoo branded version of the Aveo? Not pretty...

bpizzuti

Economies of scale still don't help if you're not selling them for enough. GM has never EVER made money off of anything smaller than a midsize. EVER. Sales or not.

ateixeira

But that gets a bunch of people in the Chevy store, not just to buy, but every 3 months for oil changes, etc.

That can help them sell a Malibu or Tahoe later. It's hard to quantify but there is a value for that.

bpizzuti

Very hard. Admittedly that makes money for the dealer, which isn't bad. But what if they come back and buy another sub or compact? What if they move up from a sub to a compact? GM still isn't making money. By the time they're ready for a Malibu or Tahoe (or more likely Traverse) they might be looking at a Fusion or Sonata instead. That's why it's so hard to quantify...it's questionable if it even exists.

Besides, wouldn't it be better to make money on Aveo and Cobalt AND make money when they move up to Malibu? If they don't, at least they already made something, right? But right now they aren't.

There's a reason they just went through bankruptcy you know.

ateixeira

That's what Honda is doing with the Fit.

The real problem is GM just acquired Daewoo and is selling a re-treaded, dated Daewoo design as a Chevy. They were too focused on cost.

tifighter

Funny enough, once you adjust for content, the Aveo really isn't that cheap relative to the competition. And the mileage is a disappointment. If you are going to bargain basement, I have no idea why someone would choose an Aveo over an Accent...

andre1969

for the Aveo, is that if you blow the extra $395 or whatever for the leatherette, it actually dresses the car up pretty nicely. FWIW, I don't think the Aveo is a horrible little car...it's just that in this class, there's so much better out there, for not much more money.

I wonder though, what the average transaction price is for an Aveo? Even if the MSRP doesn't seem like much of a bargain, I wonder if out-the-door, the typical Aveo might cost a lot less than an equivalent Yaris, Accent, Versa, etc?

ateixeira

I bet you could get in a Sonata for not much more money than a loaded one.

andre1969

Well, just for kicks I spec'ed one out on Edmunds. I picked the top trim level hatchback, threw in an automatic, sunroof, abs, and the leatherette, and got a TMV of around $16,500. Not exactly cheap. But I'm still wondering if they really go out the door for that price? Maybe I'm just suffering from sticker shock because I haven't bought a brand-new car in almost 10 years, but that just sounds like a lot of money for an entry-level subcompact!

bpizzuti

For a loaded Aveo? Maybe MSRP not probably not OTD. OTOH, A fully loaded Accent is about the price of an Elantra GLS which isn't too far off of a Sonata GLS after rebates.

Accent is pretty roomy inside too, though not as much as a Versa or Cube. Same with Elantra (ESPECIALLY the Touring). it's really impressive how much room Hyundai and Nissan have put into the interiors of these smaller vehicles.

ateixeira

I've seen Sonatas below that amount, sure. fitzmall.com has one for $15,827.

Let me check their Chevy store, same dealer also sells Aveos...

Bummer! None in stock.

Still, at anywhere near Sonata money I'd run not walk away from an Aveo.

tifighter

Especially comparing the EPA highway rating of 34mpg for the Aveo versus the Sonata's 32mpg :surprise:

bpizzuti

Of course, the Accent gets 35 on the highway. :shades:

stever

Fits can easily push right at $18k if you don't shop hard. Of course, I wanted the Sport model, which has an MSRP of $17,820. TMV shaves about $300 off that.

andre1969

Of course, I wanted the Sport model, which has an MSRP of $17,820. TMV shaves about $300 off that.

So, for about $1000 more TMV, you can get a Honda Fit. Would that Fit have a sunroof though?

Only personal reference point I have is a friend of mine recently picked up a new 2009 Honda Civic EX-L sedan for $20,000, out the door. Well, when you figure that $16,500 Aveo could probably run around $17,500 once you factor in taxes, tags, etc, I'd say the Civic for $2500 more is worth it. Real leather, a bit roomier (even if you lose the versatility of a hatchback), peppier engine, more economical, and most likely a much safer car. And REAL leather, versus a facsimile...albeit a good fascimile!

I still have a gut feeling though, that the hypothetical $16.5K TMV Aveo is rolling out the door at somewhat less than that, though.

stever

Hard to believe that a subcompact can command that kind of money, even in $4 a gallon gas days eh?

andre1969

Yeah, tell me about it. One figure that always sticks in my mind, for some reason, is the $16,200 out the door that my grandparent's '85 LeSabre Limited ended up costing. To think that nowadays, some subcompacts can easily top that! Of course, that $16.2K LeSabre was almost 25 years ago, and adjusted for inflation would probably be close to double that today.

For some reason though, the $20K that my friend's Civic cost didn't really faze me. I guess because it was just about fully loaded. I think it had everything but Nav. In comparison, my 2000 Intrepid would have been around $21,100 out the door if I hadn't bought that extended warranty that I never had to use. But, it's also 9 model years later, and that Civic has a few things my car doesn't, like leather, sunroof, ABS, alloys, probably a better sound system, fold-down rear seat, and probably a few more airbags.

As much as we gripe about the high price of today's cars, I imagine that, once you factor in all the standard features, performance, etc, they're actually a bit of a bargain compared to days gone by.

andre1969

I've seen Sonatas below that amount, sure. fitzmall.com has one for $15,827.

Dude, you're evil for mentioning fitzmall! :shades: I just went to their website and found a 2008 Charger 3.5 with something like 19K miles for $13.9K! I was actually a bit tempted, until I read the description, and it said the color was beige.

$15,827 for a new Sonata is definitely a lot of car for the money.

ateixeira

And I looked - it had cruise, keyless entry, A/C, power everything, CD player with iPod input, 5 ratio automatic,...not the stripper model with no A/C or radio one might imagine.

Interesting that highway mpg is near the subcompact Hyundais.

Hyundais used to be low on power and weak on efficiency compared to the competition, but lately I've noticed that the newer powertrains improve on output and fuel efficiency rather dramatically.

In 2005 a Sonata V6 made a measly 170hp yet only returned 19mpg in the city. Pathetic numbers, really.

Today's 4 banger Sonata makes more HP than the old V6 and returns a decent 22/32 (using the new, lower numbers!), and I bet it's quicker than the old V6.

Lots of people talk about how the Genesis is impressive but the fact is they have made HUGE improvements in their bread-and-butter cars.

ateixeira

They sell them in beige? I hope I never have to see one.

andre1969

They sell them in beige? I hope I never have to see one.

Well they make a color called "Light Sandstone Metallic", which is more of what I'd call "champagne, I guess. It might be that color, which isn't too bad. But yeah, when I think "beige", I usually think of something like this. Not something I want to see in my rearview mirror!

ateixeira

My eyes instantly moved over to the LX 5.0 (4.9l, technically) Mustang pursuit vehicle next to it.

nippononly

is still on schedule to arrive next year:

Looking to bring zip to the brand, Scion will add the iQ small car in the fall of 2010.

....The iQ went on sale as a Toyota in Japan and Europe during the fourth quarter of 2008. It is 117.5 inches long and seats three adults and a child. It gets about 66 mpg. It was shown as a Scion concept at the New York auto show in April. The concept was powered by a 1.3-liter four-cylinder engine.

In New York, "the interest was so high that it would be silly for us not to fight for it," Hollis said, "but the next-generation tC is our top priority now."

http://www.autoweek.com/article/20090817/CARNEWS/908179995

The tC is based on the European Avensis and uses the Camry engine, so not surprisingly it will use the new 2.7L four that already goes in the Venza.

But it seems there is a GREAT deal of interest in the iQ, and that would include me. 1800 pounds, 100 hp 1.3L engine, makes 66 mpg on the Japanese test cycle. What's not to like?! ;-)

And it would be nice if this would come here too: http://www.autoweek.com/article/20090817/CARNEWS/908179998

Cute looking Kia sub, with diesel engines that employ stop/start technology. But the U.S. will get shorted again on this one....

ateixeira

Looks better than the Smart, if you ask me.

Both of those cars would do well in Brazil, FWIW.

nippononly

Word was Subaru might bring one of those little JDM cars (R1e, R2e?? I forget) to the U.S. I wonder where that proposal stands today. We could begin to see a heating up of competition in the microcar category.

plekto

What's not to like is simple. The *U.S.* version is going to be using a much larger engine that will only get about 40-45mpg.

1.0 1 L (998 cc, 61 cu in) I3 (1KR-FE) 68 PS (67 hp/50 kW)@6000, 98 N·m (72 lb·ft)@4800

This is the 66mpg engine. Not for U.S. consumption, as usual...

Isn't it lovely being second-class once again, despite having the most miles of roads and the single largest market for vehicles on the planet? :sick:

nippononly

Well, I get 42 mpg now in the Echo, which is the 1.5L version of the same engine, in a car that weighs 300 pounds more. So I'm figuring 50 or so for my new iQ. :-)

And the iQ is supposed to have good handling, a worthwhile bonus. ;-)

But I'm still holding out high hopes for the CRZ, another sub due out next year.

ateixeira

I really don't know, you'd think we'd have heard something by now. I think those are more proof-of-concept type vehicles, and we may see the next generation, or perhaps the one after that.

Now that Toyota owns a part of Subaru, who knows?

Right now the rumors are we'll see the euro boxer diesels first, but even that is a big maybe. Plus diesel prices shot up again, to $3.10 per gallon, while regular at the same station is $2.79.

I don't get why, but around here diesel always seems to cost more, erasing any potential savings.

tifighter

Just got back from Spain and saw lots of Fiestas on the roads. Looks great...let's hope it doesn't get too dumbed down for the US market.

Interestingly, I didn't see a single Fit, which I normally see lots of when in Germany or Switzerland...

nippononly

I get the sense that the new Fiesta is going to make the current Jazz/Fit seem fairly boring. I also hope that is the way it arrives in the U.S.

fintail

The Jazz/Fit isn't seen as a hip sporty little car in Europe, it's seen as something for senior citizens. It's funny how markets take things differently.

stever

"The Fiesta isn't nearly as practical as a Fit, but it's certainly a more capable hauler than the compact sedans that budget-minded Americans have long preferred to hatchbacks. It's also just a nicer car all-around than most of those dopey sedans. Other than the rear legroom issue."

Face-Off: Ford Fiesta versus Honda Fit (Edmunds Daily)

texases

I am very interested in the Fiesta, that comparison makes me think I'll like it more than the Fit, as long as I can get it in something other than green!

ateixeira

I prefer the styling of the Fiesta. I actually liked the old Fit better than this new one.

tifighter

I actually liked the old Fit better than this new one.

+1

stever

"The tiny Smart ForTwo has the strongest roof, the Chevy Aveo, the weakest."

IIHS 2009 Roof Crush Test: Micro and Minicars (Edmunds Daily)

ateixeira

No surprise that a dated Korean design scores poorly, and a Benz-assisted small car design does well.

plekto

Yep. Daewoo vs Mercedes.

Duh. :P

ateixeira

Next month: CMW (the chinese make) vs. Volvo.

Stay tuned!

alltorque

The Jazz/Fit isn't seen as a hip sporty little car in Europe, it's seen as something for senior citizens. It's funny how markets take things differently.

Absolutely correct. My wife is the embodiment of that at the age of..............well, a certain mature number of years..............she is at the lower end of the Jazz/Fit demographic but tells me that it is her perfect car, and I have to admit that it is ultra-practical, utter reliable and sooooo easy to drive with the 7-spd CVT, (+switchable paddle-shifters which are pointless but fun). And yes, she prefers her "old" one to the new one.

The Fiesta is a much funkier design and gaining popularity, here in U.K., with a much younger crowd. It's not as practical/roomy as the Honda though.

stever

Long-Term Test: 2008 Smart Fortwo Passion Coupe (Inside Line Wrap Up)

Upshot? Lousy resale but bulletproof. Except the parts that the Ford Explorer hit.

explorerx4

good hook, but resale was not the only lousy thing.
just scan the comments with the pictures on the right side of the screen.