What is "wrong" with these new subcompacts?

stever

The Best Movies... Ever!

nippononly

is getting into the microcar game, with a new model here in the U.S. in about two years priced and sized below Versa:

Tokyo auto show: Nissan plans new low-cost model below the Versa for U.S.

....The small platform will yield three models: a four-door sedan, a five-door hatchback and a multipurpose vehicle. They will replace the subcompact Micra that is now sold in markets around the world other than the United States.

-- The new platform will see a 50-percent improvement in fuel economy over the current Micra. The cars will come with both gasoline and diesel engines, depending on local market demand.

....The new platform will be manufactured at five plants around the world, he said, launching first in Thailand in March 2010.

http://www.autoweek.com/article/20091020/TOKYO/910209996

It seems like if all the talk right now pans out, the Smart Car is going to have a lot of company in the U.S. by 2012 or so....

oregonboy

I think that we need a bump in gas prices if micros are to survive in the US market. Given the 2-year time frame for their introduction, I am pretty sure that we will get it.

iluvmysephia1

microcar in your link there shows a micro car that looks a bit sportier-tiny than their current micro the Micra. Not a bad micro-shape.

stever

"Ford CEO Alan Mulally said the company won't bring the Ka minicar to the U.S. He told the trade paper that the Ka is too small for American tastes and the Fiesta will be the smallest car in the lineup."

Ford Ka Not Coming to the U.S. Says CEO (Inside Line)

aladdinsane

Another mistake, this time for Ford...
This suit, Mulally, is mistaken...when petrol prices begin to rise this type of vehicle will again be in vogue...the Smart and Toyota's new micro will continue to clean up in this niche, so to speak.
"What fools these mortals be"...
lol
Peace!<-AladdinSane<- :shades: -

tifighter

I think its the right call for the current market. The Fiesta is already subcompact/Fit sized...the only things from the supermini class in the US market are the smart, the Aveo and maybe a 2 door Yaris. All of which are available, with incentives, at your local dealer right now.

Ford needs to focus on making the Fiesta a success without distractions...

snakeweasel

I think it is a mistake on Fords part not to bring the Ka over sometime after the Fiesta. Once the economy starts to pick up I can see gas climbing again and Ford could use it then.

tifighter

Conceptually, I agree. But I think the subcompact category has the best chance of volume in the US, just like its the bigger category in Europe. VW can barely bring itself to ship the Polo (subcompact) here, much less the Fox/Lupo class.

Anyhow, this is Ford were talking about, and bringing over their Euro cars has not exactly been a lay-up in the past. Remember the first few years of the Focus? Or the Contour? The XR4Ti and Scorpio were disasters, if you really go far back. Anyhow, they need to get the Fiesta right...ported over from Europe with the same level of quality from that market. They can't have the same recall problems that plagued the Focus at rollout; many US consumers won't be forgiving to ANY US car company now after public money started flowing (yes I know Ford didn't take public money). I hope they get it right...

plekto

While I commiserate with those who say it's a bad move, the reality is that the average injury rating for most sedans is in the 120/100 range due to a heavy skewing by heavier SUVs and trucks on the road. The Yaris comes out at almost a 200 score, while a 4Runner is around 60 last I checked.

http://www.iihs.org/research/hldi/composite_cls.aspx?y=2006-2008

4Runner 4x4 72 56 66 (and this isn't nearly as big as a Surburban or Land Cruiser)
Yaris(4 door) 207 192 134

They could bring it over, but it's so badly outclassed that it would result in a greater that 4:1 imbalance between itself and a typical SUV in a crash., since it is a class smaller than even a Yaris. If you look at the actual aftermaths of Smart Car crashes versus SUVs, as well as it is engineered(probably the best in the whole world right now, actually, in terms of crash safety), it just can't compete. 5000+ lbs just obliterates 2000lbs every time. The Smart car is safe versus normal vehicles in Europe. Just these metal v8 behemoths that are everywhere over here are something it was never designed to cope with.

It's not a bad decision for Ford to say "too small - people will get killed".

EDIT: I used to be firmly in the small car crowd for almost two decades. But in the last decade or so I've come to the realization that big is the game in the U.S., and you're an idiot not to put as much metal between yourself and these things as you can reasonably manage. I'd personally not buy any car smaller than a Civic given what I see driving around next to me.

Note - that a Civic can get roughly 40mpg highway AND still be acceptably safe is a testament to Honda's engineering and goals.

lhanson

Your ratings show that the MINI Toyota Yaris (132) is much safer the LARGE Dodge Charger (153). What's up with that?

andre1969

My guess is driver demographics. The Charger seems like the type of car to bring out aggression and arrogance in drivers, so they're more likely to drive dangerously, fast, etc. So when they get into a crash, it's going to be at a much more heroic speed than a Yaris.

At least, that's my guess. I remember reading some crash study results from years ago that said the Corvette was actually a very safe car, although it had a very high death rate. And, if you drove a Corvette like you'd drive a Yaris, it WOULD be a safe car.

Also, even though those big SUVs and trucks might look intimidating, I believe the majority of crashes are still single-vehicle crashes. Running off the road and into a tree or ditch, that sort of thing. Small cars are usually fairly safe, as long as they're the ones doing the hitting, and not the ones getting hit.

plekto

The Mini is kind of a special case as well as it's engineered very similarly to the Smart in terms of being as safe as they could possibly make it. And while the majority of crashes are single-car ones, if you discount non-threatening stuff like parking lot mishaps and the like, it's really a more grim picture than the typical crash ratings let on(hence why the Yaris was so bad overall - there's a lot of things bigger than it out there).

(the Yaris being a total cheap tin can aside, of course...)

british_rover

A customer of mine's daughter was killed in a Yaris that got T-Boned by a Prius.

No said airbags in the Yaris means that just about any significant side impact crash is a death sentence.

ateixeira

I think the real issue is that it wouldn't be much cheaper than a Fiesta.

Fords would be too close in price, something like this:

Ka: $11,999
Fiesta: $12,499
Focus: $13,999

That would be a crowded entry level lineup.

Plus the Euro is strong vs. the dollar.

nippononly

Side airbags are standard in Yaris as of the '09 MY.

Saw an interesting article on Mazda today, seems they have a goal of 220 pounds REDUCTION in weight for the next 3. Expect to save 5% in fuel consumption on that improvement alone. The car itself will have a slightly smaller footprint, but with no reduction in interior space.

There will always be the few that feel they need to be in an Excursion to feel safe, but I'm hoping they will be in a shrinking minority.

british_rover

This wasn't a 2009 though so no side airbags.

ateixeira

They've done a good job keeping the weight on the Miata down. It's 400 lbs lighter than the Sky/Solistice. GM kept adding power but didn't get it - there was no "remove 400 lbs" mod.

nippononly

Yeah, I was SHOCKED to learn that the Solstice weighed in at 3200 pounds. In such a small car, and a sports car at that? Talk about sucking the fun out.....

thegraduate

Wow, that's heavier than my 2.4L Accord, and over 300 lbs heavier than my '96 Accord.

ateixeira

Plus the top would have won the award for worst design ever. It took up the entire trunk basically.

The Miata's takes up none of the trunk.

A shame, too, because they are very attractive cars.

thegraduate

I sat in one (Sky) at the B'ham IAS this weekend. REEKS of cheapness; it was very 2005 Malibu inside.

ateixeira

Well, it's a shame they didn't get another shot at it.

Recent GM cars have been vastly improved, including the Malibu. Imagine that interior, or one inspired by the Lambdas.

thegraduate

GM's had a lot of "bless their heart" type of moments in the last few years, but I think they have bigger fish to fry than a niche-market roadster. I'm glad they've poured the big money into the big fish like Malibu, and crossovers. I wonder if the Impala will ever be rejuvenated at this point. It's a low-point in an ever-improving GM sedan lineup (Cruze being on-deck).

ateixeira

Good point. Makes more sense to invest the money in higher volume segments.

fezo

Has there been even a hint about a new Impala? It just strikes me that they need that. it's been around a long time. Nice enough car - just dated.

thegraduate

Straightline (here at Edmunds) said that the next Impala would definitely be front-drive in their article. Other than that, and the fact that a Hybrid will appear later, very little info...

Next Impala Definitely Front-Wheel Drive; Hybrid Version Coming

By Ed Hellwig | November 14, 2009



Inside Line sat down with GM Vice President of Marketing and Communications, Bob Lutz, yesterday to discuss a wide range of topics. One of them was the future of the Impala, a vehicle that many had hoped would be reincarnated as the civilian version of the Caprice Police Package.

Lutz said forget it, the next Impala will definitely be front-wheel drive. It will get slightly bigger and add equipment, but maintain good fuel efficiency so it can compete effectively with sedans like the new Ford Taurus.

He also noted that the Impala will be compatible with GM's hybrid technology, so expect a gas-electric version at some point down the road.

nippononly

that sales of Smart cars have declined so dramatically that the company is starting a Smart2Go program to rent them out (for an hour or as long as needed) instead. :-(

stever

And they are going to compete with "themselves".

Mercedes To Sell Small Cars in U.S. (Inside Line)

That links says that smart sales totaled 661 last month. Wonder how Penske is feeling about it?

stever

Here's more about the Smart2Go program. If anyone lives in Austin.

Daimler to Begin Smart Sharing Test Program in Austin (Green Car Advisor)

Here's another pic for comparison with the MB above:

ateixeira

sales of Smart cars have declined so dramatically

I knew that would happen. It was a fad car.

Plus it uses premium fuel, making it a poor choice for economy-minded buyers.

Mercedes sells the A-class and B-class in Brazil, I do like the B. I don't think they should bring the A here.

fintail

Both of those appear to be reasonably successful models in Europe. The B-class might find a niche here...I don't think the American consumer is to the point of paying a premium for A-class size though.

ateixeira

The B-class looks better than the R-class, IMHO.

It's practical and not too small for most american families.

fintail

Yeah, the R-class is too minivan-y, and not in a good way.

The B could work if not priced too high...in Canada you can load one up to insane heights.

texases

"Wonder how Penske is feeling about it?"

That's gotta be a problem for him, not being part of this program. He must not like it, or MB isn't happy with his work on the smart so far...

explorerx4

i think the smart could work as kind of a zip car.

sellaturcica

Not so sure. What utility is there for the Smart? It's main advantage is ease of parking. If you're a city dweller, when you need a car you probably generally need to transport something (either stuff from the store or you and probably other people to somewhere out of the city, like to the beach). Neither of those things is really great for a Smart. The Smart is more made for city dwellers who are brave (dumb) enough to want to try to street park the car in a city like New York. It's great for finding parking places no one else can fit into. If I was using a Zip car program, I would take a normal car when I was actually using a car, because I wouldn't have to worry about parking it.

snakeweasel

I think there is great utility in the Smart car. I would never suggest that someone should have it as their only car but as a second commuter car it would be near perfect. Just a quick look around during my commute one can easily see that most cars only have one or two people in them. Why have all the extra capacity if its not being used?

I would say that there are many multi car families where a Smart will fit right in.

stever

"It's now official, the 2011 Mazda 2 will arrive in the U.S. late next year. Call it Mazda's Fiesta fighter, a Mini fighter or whatever kind of small, warrior-like reference you want, but it should be a nice little hatchback."

2011 Mazda 2 for the U.S. Will Appear at the L.A. Auto Show (Straightline)

sellaturcica

Ick, why would I want to commute in a Smart? If you're commuting in a car, in traffic, you'd like to enjoy the time you spend in it... Never mind that if you do ever get up to highway speed, you're much more likely to die in a Smart should there be an accident.

In any case, if you're a family that needs multiple cars it's more cost effective to commute in a general purpose car that only gets 25 MPG on the highway but can be used for other purposes, rather than a dedicated $12-13K bandbox commuter. I mean, why wouldn't you get a 16K Fit or a similarly priced CIvic, with much greater utility, neve rmind comfort?

alltorque

I think there is great utility in the Smart car. I would never suggest that someone should have it as their only car but as a second commuter car it would be near perfect. Just a quick look around during my commute one can easily see that most cars only have one or two people in them. Why have all the extra capacity if its not being used?

I would say that there are many multi car families where a Smart will fit right in.

Can't argue with that. SMART is a great way for urban commuters to get into the city; except London where the only "great" way into the city is in the back of a chauffeured Phantom.

Smart does make sense here in Europe..........there must be a zillion in Rome and they are MUCH safer than the two-wheeled alternative; neither do you have to dress as for an Arctric expedition. Fun to drive ? Oh yes. One car fits all ? Oh no.

stever

Smart does make sense here in Europe..........there must be a zillion in Rome

Aren't they still way outnumbered by all the other subcompacts available there?

ateixeira

Looks good. I wonder what it'll cost.

They got it right if they offer the 5 door first.

stever

Initial reports hint at $14,500.

Here's the 2/3 door:

ateixeira

I actually like the 5 door better, which is odd.

So looks like prices will be right in line with the Fit?

stever

Ya, a bit too high.

nippononly

LOL! Too true, too true....

explorerx4

i was thinking for a college campus. even kids living off campus need to go places occasionally, and don't need to carry 2x4's or things like that.

snakeweasel

Ick, why would I want to commute in a Smart? If you're commuting in a car, in traffic, you'd like to enjoy the time you spend in it.

Have you ever driven a Smart? I have, not a bad car to tool around it.

you're much more likely to die in a Smart should there be an accident.

It does get good crash ratings and you are in a steel cage.

In any case, if you're a family that needs multiple cars it's more cost effective to commute in a general purpose car that only gets 25 MPG on the highway but can be used for other purposes, rather than a dedicated $12-13K bandbox commuter. I mean, why wouldn't you get a 16K Fit or a similarly priced CIvic, with much greater utility, neve rmind comfort?

Actually if you have a family that needs multiple cars the odds are getting two general purpose cars that get 25 MPG isn't cost efficient. I would venture to say that there is a vast number of multi car families where one car is basically transportation for just one, maybe two, people.

Seriously looking back over my married life I cannot think of one time when we had to have two cars with all the utility of a four door five seat car. When I talk to other people about this same thing they usually agree that one car will always be unused or used by one person.

Sure you can spend a little more money and get more utility, but is it worth it if that utility is never used? Plus that Smart will use less gas than the Civic of Fit.

As for comfort the Fit and Civic really don't have that much over the Smart.

ateixeira

But the Smart requires premium fuel, which sort of spoils the whole spend-less-on-gas angle. Any advantage is tiny.