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What is "wrong" with these new subcompacts?

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Comments

  • scwmcanscwmcan Member Posts: 399
    And yes as I said I agree with that statement, at least until the eletric model comes to North America, the gas version is not as smart as it could be. (and even then the electric one is only good for the city driving most seem to think the car is only good for).
    Scott
  • 32333233 Member Posts: 21
    Go for the Cooper S, an absolute BLAST to drive. My friend bought a used one recently and he says it's the best car he's ever had (granted, he's pretty young, but you get the point). Plus you can fit 2 in the back in a pinch-it's tight but doable, at least as spacious as a 1 Series IMO. It's a good bit cheaper than the 1 Series also. You could get the John Cooper Works Mini for the price of a 128 convertible, and I bet you can guess which one is more fun to drive :)
  • michaellnomichaellno Member Posts: 4,120
    Stopped by the MINI dealership today.... getting the bug..

    26/34 for an -S-

    28/37 for a base Cooper...


    ...and 25/33 for the base with 6-speed automatic. Daughter has driven it for a week now - to college and back, 100 miles each way - and it has just less than a half tank in it. Will be interesting to find out if she can get back to school tomorrow with what's left.

    And, as a 5'11" male, I can tell you that the back seat, while not real roomy, was OK for a couple of short jaunts around town, providing that my 5'3" wife pulled the front seat up a bit to allow room for my feet. I wouldn't want to go to her school in the back, but it was serviceable for the 15-20 minutes I was back there.

    For the most part, it's just the daughter and maybe one friend at most, so the MINI will work well for that. She'll start bringing home stuff from her dorm room starting next weekend, so we'll see how much it can handle. We've got the VUE for her couch and a couple other larger objects.

    I'm thinking Clubman S for my fun toy with the next purchase.

    The only downside to the S is that it comes standard with the RFT's. Make sure you've got the $$$'s to replace them.
  • jack137jack137 Member Posts: 19
    You said it! SMART USA does NOT advertise this car, yet they managed to sell 25,000 of them during its introductory year. 2009, however, was terrible for SMART sales, so they fired the sales manager and hired a new one. I have yet to see a new SMART ad on TV, though.

    I despair more about the SMART engineers, however. Guys, this car is FAR from perfect! First, fix the crappy software in the Engine Control System, and the Transmission Control system. Then fix all the "safety interlocks" that do nothing but lock the driver out of being able to control the car in an emergency situation. Please - provide emergency shutoffs for things like the transmission, the engine, and the door locks! You've had 10 years to get this stuff right. :cry: What are you waiting for?
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    edited April 2010
    of the U.S.-spec Fiesta are coming out now, along with pricing which will be around $14K to start, $20K to "finish". I was somewhat disappointed to see that the good folks at (Motor Trend, was it?) judged the Fit to be more nimble and lighter-feeling than the Fiesta, with a better manual shifter. But they did say that many other things about the Fiesta were better - feature content, interior materials and design, the seats, the 6-speed auto (although not shiftable like Fit's), and certainly the mileage - they are expecting an EPA rating of 30/40, which I think is very impressive from a car that is as fast to 60 as the Fit (which is only rated 27/33).

    I can't wait to drive one and do a back-to-back with the Fit. The Fiesta, I hope, will end up as kind of a "tweener" between the Fit and the Mini, while also offering a strippo model for the folks just looking for cheap transportation. And unlike the Fit, the Fiesta can be had with a factory moonroof. :-) (and you don't have to spend $2000 buying NAV just to get the ESC, a definite strike against the Fit although I suppose that won't last much longer, with ESC being mandated on all 2012 models).

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Sounds good. I may drive one out of curiosity.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited April 2010
    the best small car you can buy in this country

    http://jalopnik.com/5524168/

    $13,995 to start, $15,795 for the 5 door.

    Not cheap, but content is high for this class.

    Oddity: 30/40 for the auto, 29/38 for the 5 speed.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,736
    edited April 2010
    I'm not terribly surprised by the mileage difference. The auto is a 6-speed DSG-style trans vs the 5-cog manual. What I do find odd, however, is that autoweek reports the DSG as being more sluggish than the manual and lacks manual control. (??? What is the point of the DSG in that case???)

    autoweek report

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    edited April 2010
    Yes, in a most puzzling decision (for which cost-cutting is to blame, I'm sure), the DSG is not shiftable either at the steering wheel or on the floor with the shifter itself.

    But since I'm not interested in anything that says "automatic", I'm not much concerned. 29/38 for the manual is very good, given that it beats Fit by a wide margin and even beats Mini and Yaris, and translates to about 33/43 in the (for me) more accurate pre-2008 numbers. Which is better than the '02 Echo I drive to work now, despite it being heavier and more powerful than my Echo.

    Now if they would only go ahead and follow Nissan's example and give it a 6-speed stick, I figure it would be good for more like 29/40. That's an unfortunate place to cut costs (I believe the European models get 6-speeds).

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    An Outback CVT gets paddle shifters and a DSG doesn't? What is the world coming to. ;)
  • wbfrankwbfrank Member Posts: 3
    I have a Fit and tricked it out some with extra sway bars and it handles as good as a Mini. The engine can be tricked out too with a supercharger that has been available for quite a while. I think that the 2007 - 08 is able to take a SI engine nicely. The only thing that messes that up is the $$. So I traded in my 2000 V6 Accord coupe with less than 100k for a 2010 Mustang... any Mini's out there to take ME on?? :shades:
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    You have a '10 Mustang AND a Fit?

    I was told this evening by a dealer sales manager that the Fiestas are only a couple of weeks out from arrival at dealers - will be very interested to give one a whirl. I am now reading that the Mazda2 will be the much sportier of the two, starting with being 250 pounds lighter. 100 hp, 2300 pounds. 29/35 mpg. So that one will get a try too. :-)

    Everybody in the world is panning the CRZ, which is supposed to arrive at dealers on August 24th, but I am holding out hope for that one also.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    250 lbs lighter, really? I wonder how/why? Are they comparing 5 door to 3 door?

    I still want to see a non-hybrid CR-Z. Make it lighter and change the name to CR-X.
  • alltorquealltorque Member Posts: 535
    UK road tests of the CR-Z are generally quite good - not brilliant but better than perhaps expected. Rear "seats" are truly a joke but it's fine for two plus bags etc. Pretty quirky on the outside but has a real wow-factor on the inside and decent room too. Rather liked the one I sat in but would spend all day just staring at the "Starship Enterprise" dashboard rather than looking at the road etc.

    At least it's a fresh approach and, I think, needs to be judged on what it is rather than on what some journalist thought it might be............or hoped it was.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The Insight disappointed me (and most press) so let's see if this one delivers.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Since the Insight was an exact copy of the Prius, it needed to be better than the Prius, or at least significantly cheaper. Instead it was basically the same price, had a cheaper interior, and missed the Prius mark by 10 mpg.

    OTOH, the CRZ is like nothing else on the market. A hybrid two-seat sport coupe? The closest thing you find is the Miata (significantly worse fuel economy and more pricey, but of course with much more straight-line speed) or the Mini Cooper. The Mini is the closest thing in spec, and is faster, but also costs more if you do any personalizing. I dunno - there will be the people who want the hybrid badge in something that's actually fun to drive, there will be people without a Mini dealer near them or hesitant to buy one based on the poor reliability reports on the first-gen (that would include me - no dealer nearby AND hesitant). and considering that Honda only wants to sell 20K per year or something, I think they might be able to meet their targets.

    As I say, I remain interested in CRZ as a possible replacement for my commute car.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • alltorquealltorque Member Posts: 535
    Charlize Theron did all of her own stunt-driving in the Mini-Mobile (the old one and the new world order Mini) in the movie with Mark Wahlberg and Edward Norton called 'The Italian Job.' I liked the movie so much that I bought it.

    The makers of the movie wanted to go underground the city of Los Angeles. The city of LA made things rough on them. They "made" them turn all 18 of the Mini-Coopers made by BMW in to all-electric propulsion Mini-Coopers. Couldn't have rigs that were that combustible in underground LA. The movie is quite entertaining and the scenes with the Mini-Coopers are ever-so-cool to view. I recommend ya get yer copy of 'The Italian Job' for yer viewing enjoyment if you at all like the BMW Mini-Cooper. You'll be glad ya did.


    Hate to throw cold water over such enthusiasm but the re-make of "The Italian Job", with the BMW MINI's is utterly utterly atrocious. It's a typical Hollywood "the original was a great movie so we'll totally ruin it" job. Here in the UK it was laughed at - and not in a kind way. :lemon:

    If you really want to see Mini's in action - proper Alex Issigonis Mini's, not the, (comparatively), bloated BMW things - then search out a copy of the ORIGINAL "The Italian Job", starring Michael Caine. If that doesn't make you smile and lust after a proper Mini then you may well be in urgent need of automotive resuscitation.

    Sorry to be somewhat tardy in responding to the post but I came across by accident and couldn't just let it pass. :blush:
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,709
    edited July 2010
    that's quite all right. I appreciate a reaction of any kind to it. I'm not really even a BMW Mini-Cooper fan, but, yes, I did enjoy the New World Order version of 'The Italian Job.' However, your review of my "review" does make my want to visit a video store and rent the Old World Order 'Italian Job.' It really does and I've got a smattering of days off up ahead that I can go rent movies during.

    I still want to see a non-hybrid CR-Z. Make it lighter and change the name to CR-X.

    ateixeira-I would like to see this occur, too. I find myself a slight CR-Z fan even without ever seeing one in person or sitting in one. I like it in pics and on paper. I think I could smoke it even with my '08 Lancer GTS with 2.0L I4 152 hp 148 ft-pnd. motor, but, the small car looks racey-fun and Honda has accomplished in sort of a quirky way what they are setting out to accomplish. That is, bringing us a New World Order 1988 CRX! Isn't that what they're out to accomplish? Course it is. At least partly. It's that other part that I find compelling and interesting to learn about. Bring it on!

    What's interesting that just about all of you would not know is that I don't really like Honda motorvehicles much. That I even have a tad bit of enthusiasm about the new Honda CR-Z in any drivetrain form is peculiar and quite rare. Like a Seattle Mariner team winning the Super Bowl.

    Come on, get yer red pens out and correct me, boys! :shades:

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 20,723
    the original 'Italian Job' is very 'English' in it's production.
    Michael Caine played the lead.
    2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • plan_manplan_man Member Posts: 97
    But the BBC weren't involved in production, I think. That would mean they actually had a budget...
  • alltorquealltorque Member Posts: 535
    You're right.............the BBC were nowhere near this little gem and the budget was probably about £50 ! seriously, though; it really is a good film and the Minis are the true stars. Outstanding driving and all done for real - no post-production trickery.

    Well worth watching.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited August 2010
    But doesn't everything?

    "Ford knew the Fiesta will have to overcome Americans' historic aversion to small cars. It's been tried by many makers many times before. But the job is all the more difficult when Ford's own much-larger and still reasonably economical Fusion midsizer - a car two classes above the Fiesta - in on sale in the same showroom for similar, or even less money."

    Fiesta Gets Tough Competition in its Own Showroom as Small-Car Sales Plod (AutoObserver)

    image
  • delthekingdeltheking Member Posts: 1,152
    I believe there is no market in US subcompacts if their fuel economy is not impressive. And the mileage difference between midsize sedans and subcompacts is nowadays not that big. So why would folks want to drive cramped cars on our huge roads . And if fuel economy is the most important concern-- there is always the Prius !! :shades:
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    Seeing those cars side-by-side like that really doesn't make the case for small cars, does it? I wonder though, how each one is equipped?

    I just spec'ed both cars out on Edmund's, picking SE models with the only options being the 6-speed automatic and the "sun & synch" package (includes sunroof and the Sync thingie). I got a TMV of $22,144 for the Fusion, and $17,319 for the Fiesta.

    I guess it's possible that the Fiesta SE above is fairly well-equipped, while the Fusion SE has few, if any, options?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Also, the Fusion is long in the tooth, and the Fiesta brand new.

    What Ford needs to do is come out with the new Focus and Fusion/Mondeo, and make sure there is less overlap.

    Fusion should not be selling at $17k, it's a $20k plus car.

    I'm sure at $17k Ford is losing money.

    There should be some overlap, but not much. I imagine it like this:

    Fiesta: $15-22k
    New Focus: $17-25k
    New Fusion/Mondeo: $19-30k

    Something like that.

    The Taurus is selling at MUCH higher transactions costs than the Five Hundred did, so they have successfully moved that model upmarket. Just do the same with the next Focus and Fusion/Mondeo.
  • accordguy0325accordguy0325 Member Posts: 169
    edited August 2010
    ""So why would folks want to drive cramped cars on our huge roads""

    Despite some price similarities between today's subcompact and midsize cars, there are many advantages to driving a smaller car besides the usual fuel economy gain. Advantages such as greater maneuverability, nimble handling, increased interior versatility (demonstrated by cars such as the Honda FIT with it's "Magic Seat" and 57 cubic feet of cargo space), and sometimes even more interior space than other compact and midsize cars - aka Nissan Versa.

    Besides all of these advantages, sometimes it comes down to style and generational preferences/differences. Often younger buyers (those well under 25) seem to prefer sporty, fun, and efficient compacts as opposed to their larger, bloated alternatives.

    Many younger buyers would rather have a Fit Sport, a CR-Z, or a Civic coupe compared to their parents frumpy Accord sedan, or a new, edgy Fiesta to their grand parents boring beige Fusion.

    With some careful shopping most subcompacts can be had for a few thousand less than their midsize counterparts, all comes down to how many options you're wanting/willing to pay for.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    I guess it's possible that the Fiesta SE above is fairly well-equipped, while the Fusion SE has few, if any, options?

    I think you're right and I think that Ford hopes people load the Fiesta with those profitable options.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Another advantage - small cars fit better in tight parking spots. So easier to park, especially parallel park.

    This winter I had to park my Miata (snow on the ground) and drove my Sienna, and a lot of spots were smaller due to piles of snow. The Sienna simply didn't fit anywhere. It's not even that long - about 200" (nearly 2 feet shorter than a Suburban), but still, I struggled to find parking spots that would accomodate it.

    Good luck parking a Suburban.
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    *Fusion price includes $3,000 trade, plus all applicable incentives and rebates, including $500 college graduate rebate, $200 college dropout rebate, and $300 President's Council on Physical Fitness Certificate of Merit from 5th Grade rebate. :(
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I hate ads like that.

    So it is in the $20s after all.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Good luck parking a Suburban.

    They should've renamed it a "Rural" decades ago... ;-)
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    Good luck parking a Suburban.

    Yeah, but with the Suburban you could do what I did over the winter with my '85 Silverado...use it as a battering ram to make those snow-filled parking spaces bigger! Do that in the Sienna, and you might crumple the bumpers.

    But yeah, I'd say for me at least, ease of parking is the biggest advantage of a smaller car. Out on the road, in most of my driving situations, the extra length of a bigger car is nil. When you're traveling down the highway at 88+ feet per second, an extra couple of feet isn't going to make much difference. But, when it comes to parking in a tight space, every inch can count.

    Most parking spots I have to deal with are marked out and a standard spot, but in many areas, such as non-metered curbs in DC, various residential areas, etc, the size of the available spots is often determined by what was in that spot before you.
  • michaellnomichaellno Member Posts: 4,120
    With some careful shopping most subcompacts can be had for a few thousand less than their midsize counterparts, all comes down to how many options you're wanting/willing to pay for.

    Agreed. Personally, I'd rather have a smaller car that is better equipped than a larger car that was sparsely optioned.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited August 2010
    I'm trying to sell my minivan and I'm already missing the room. The Outback holds "enough" but I have to plan my packing with it. I can just toss stuff in the van and the seats are more comfy. But it's just a pain having two cars when neither is getting driven much.

    When we get tired of the Subie, we'll look at small hatches again. The Transit Connect still intrigues too.
  • michaellnomichaellno Member Posts: 4,120
    I'm trying to sell my minivan and I'm already missing the room.

    I hear ya .. in the past 10 years we've downsized from a '99 Expedition to an '03 Explorer to an '05 VUE to an '08 VUE ... each time we've lost a bit of interior space.

    However, the '08 VUE still manages to swallow most anything we need toting .. most recently, a large chair and ottoman for our home office.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    True, a lot of times I simply drove the Sienna around until I found a bigger spot!
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,592
    What Ford needs to do is bring the Ka over.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The last one preceeded the New Beetle, and sort of looked like one. The newer one looks less toylike and is a better car overall.

    Let's see how the US responds to tiny cars like the upcoming Toyota iQ.

    The Smart ForTwo had wait lists when it was new, but now they can't give them away.

    Let's see if a tiny small car can actually sustain sales.
  • tifightertifighter Member Posts: 3,785
    edited August 2010
    Let's see if a tiny small car can actually sustain sales.

    Agreed. It hasn't been proven that the Fiesta is yet a success for Ford. They don't need to go smaller until they can show they've knocked it out of the park. Like Juice said, Smarts aren't exactly flying of dealer lots at the moment...

    25 NX 450h+ / 24 Sienna Plat AWD / 23 Civic Type-R / 21 Boxster GTS 4.0 / 03 Montero Ltd

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    A friend here at work is waiting for a Fiesta she ordered, delayed by the damage in Mexico. Wonder if she's eligible for that gift card Ford was handing out?

    I sent her the link so she's aware, at least.
  • michaellnomichaellno Member Posts: 4,120
    image
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    That's newer than the ones I've seen in Brazil. I love that front end. Not sure about the shoulders in the rear. Guess I'd have to see it from other angles.
  • michaellnomichaellno Member Posts: 4,120
    The picture is from the Ford UK website .. I believe the Ka was redesigned a year or two ago so that it more resembles the Fiesta and Focus.

    The previous iterations seemed to me to be blob-like. This new version is quite sharp looking, but I still wonder how well something that size would sell here in the US.

    Cannot compare it to the Smart, since the Ka does have 4 seats. Ka starts at 7995 GBP, which is about $12,400 USD. Gonna be hard to sell something that small when the mileage is probably similar to a Prius or Insight.
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,592
    Gonna be hard to sell something that small when the mileage is probably similar to a Prius or Insight.

    Oh I don't know about that. I think that a $12-13K Ka getting the same mileage as a $22-24K Pruis would sell. Think about it, for the price of a Prius and the gas to drive it off the dealers lot you can buy the Ka and drive it for 150K miles.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    IIRC the current Ka shares a platform with the Fiat 500, so we'll see how those do when they show up next(?) year.
  • michaellnomichaellno Member Posts: 4,120
    IIRC the current Ka shares a platform with the Fiat 500, so we'll see how those do when they show up next(?) year.

    I do believe you are correct about that, but I think Fiat / Chrysler are planning to position the 500 as more of a 'premium' subcompact - similar to the MINI. Haven't seen pricing yet, but would not be surprised if it was in the high teens or low 20's.

    The Ka, OTOH, would compete with the Yaris and the Aveo in the A class segment.

    The only way the Ka would sell for $12-13K here in the US was if it were to be built here. The strong Euro would conspire against such low pricing ... much like GM / Saturn had when they brought over the Astra.

    If the Ka were imported, it would probably be around $15K, and that would overlap with the Fiesta.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Actually, to be honest I think they'd have to build the Ka in Mexico, not the US, to keep prices that low.

    It'll be compared with the Smart if prices overlap.

    Consumers usually shop by price range. That's why a BMW 3 series is cross-shopped with much bigger sedans - people are looking in that price range, and similarly priced competitors are roomier.

    Example: CTS vs. 3 series. Did you know the CTS is bigger than the 5 series? 100 vs. 99 cubic feet of passenger space. Trunk is also bigger, 16 vs. 14 cubes.

    Dirty little trick by the Europeans.
  • puffin1puffin1 Member Posts: 276
    Well, I don't think so as the seats in back don't really fold down.
    Also, the seats in the Focus hatch same story.
    Go to WWW.Auto Express.com and check out the Ford Focus Monvdeo.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    tell the story of the Fiesta before we have had a full month of sales? Most dealers didn't have any to sell over the the July 4th weekend, which I would have to assume is a pretty good selling weekend, what with all the sales.

    Even now they don't have a lot of stock - my local dealer had 4 or 5, sold all but one immediately, and hasn't received any more. The one he has is a loaded SES automatic with a sticker close to $20 grand.

    I am eager to check out the Mazda2 on this platform instead - a more basic car with a better handling package and a lot less weight (and better mileage for the manual). And a Mazda dealer is a lot more likely to order a few stick shifts than a Ford dealer.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • puffin1puffin1 Member Posts: 276
    Why would Ford or GM for that matter bring there best sellers in Euope over here when the yankee dollar is way lower than the Pound of Euro?
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