What is "wrong" with these new subcompacts?

stickguy

wait, last week you were head over heels for the upcoming Dodge Alfa. Man, you are fickle!

The Fiesta is very nice though. I have sat in one but not driven. And at that price, yo uare going to be at a much, much lower price point.

but no chance in the world I would ever be driving a car with roll up windows again!

iluvmysephia1

I seem to have driven the 2011 Toyota FT-86 and 2011 Alfa Romeo Giulietta 6-speed out of my mind (at least for now) and now it is this face that I find inviting. For $14,490 minus $500 Ford customer cash back for the 2011 Ford Fiesta S 5-speed manual sedan that is lightly optioned, you end up paying only $13,990.



And this car is well-engineered. Do your research...I am convinced that this would make a fun and reliable daily driver for meh-self. You don't get compromised road grip and steering nor do you get dumpy handling with this little mighty-might. Not at all. This is a light and small rig, only about 2,500 lbs.

Ford has stuffed lots of noise-dampening material underneath and around the cabin, reviewers are shocked at how quiet it is inside the cabin for a subcompact.

One negative is that passengers in the back don't have a lot of room. They need to be about 5' 10' tall at most and not too wide. So there's a negatory about the 2011 Ford Fiesta. But that's not nearly enough negative to break a deal for iluv.

nippononly

and they had a couple of Fiat 500s there, which was a very pleasant surprise! These things are stylish as all heck, but a lot of the practicalities built into Japanese and American small cars are missing here. For instance, the back seats are hard to fold flat and when you finally get it done, they aren't flat with the floor of the cargo area.

Still all in all, I am now more interested than ever to drive an Abarth. WHY do we have to wait a whole extra year for it?

Also sat in the Fiesta which is a very nice piece of work (the 5-door that is), and only $17,4 for a manual SE with the moonroof. Lots of value there, and good looks and interesting color choices too!

And I had another sit in the CRZ, about which I like so many things, but probably not enough to pull the trigger.
PZEV, check.
Interesting interior and decent looks, check.
Comfortable and supportive seats, check.
Long front overhang and no factory moonroof, ummm?
Puny 10-gallon gas tank, ummmm?
Rated 31/37 with the stick, giving it virtually the same fuel economy as the afore-mentioned Fiesta and Mini Cooper while being much slower into the bargain and having two less seats, ummmm?????

But one of my last stops was the Mini Cooper, and I think that still is #1 in my mind. It's in a whole different class from all the other subs out there, even though it is only about $3000 more, similarly equipped (and $0 more than a CRZ).

I am also more of a fan than ever of the Juke, which is sort of like a jacked-up Mini: 188 hp from a small fuel-efficient turbo, a wheelbase of like 96 inches, and tons of personal customization available. Only problem is it has a torsion beam rear unless you get the AWD, which I wouldn't want. And it has Nissan electric steering, which is never a good thing for people who want to be involved in the drive.

Next step: test drive one of these things.

iluvmysephia1

yeah, this Fiesta has really caught my attention, though I would choose the sedan. I have come to like it's looks a lot.

The suspension of the Fiesta is Front Independent MacPherson strut with stabilizer bar and Rear Twist Beam with coil springs. This has really impressed test drivers so far, helping the car to deliver in the twisty department, which is appealing to me. Steering is accomplished with Ford's EPAS with power rack and pinion. Apprently Ford's engineers have built-in what they call a "nibble" steering system that automatically makes the small adjustments for you (it's true, making those all the time can be annoying) when you're cruising down the expressway, purportedly making the experience much less taxing in the long excursion department. Long, long drives would go much smoother and be less tiring on you. Sounds interesting, when can I test drive? My local dealer advertises an S sedan in that great blue Ford color and 5-speeds, and it has the single-CD player, which would work fine for me, but when I go there to the sales lot they only have the 3 hatchback Fiesta's. And they all have automatic tranny's. :sick:

I want a 5-speed stick in my Fiesta S sedan! Oh well, I guess there's no rush to trade the Lancer in. I'll look later. Kind of entranced by this new Fiesta though, it's now my No.1 future's car to invest time and fun research time in.

nippononly

I dunno about this nibble system, better would be steering that just tracked true without requiring constant corrections for wandering. But then I am never a fan of automated systems intervening "on my behalf" in the driving experience. There is only one driver in the car, me. I don't want a half-assed computer trying to "assist" me, but that's just me.

Every car in this class (except the Mini and the CRZ) has Mac strut front suspension and a torsion beam rear with coil springs. The Fit is more of a handler than the Fiesta is, but it handles better at the expense of ride comfort. If smooth as she goes is what you are looking for, the Fiesta is best in class bar none, from what I have read. However, I am not sure reviewers are doing many active comparisons to the class oldies, like Aveo and Accent, any more because there are so many new entrants in this class.

Fiesta has two other things going for it on paper: class-leading fuel economy and being the only sub-$20K model with an available factory moonroof. Only thing is, I sat in one with a moonroof yesterday, and it is a very small moonroof which is pretty much all located behind the driver's head, which kinda takes some of the fun out of it.

stever

Otherwise, the Transit Connect is a hit subcompact truck/van/wagon.

I don't care all that much about the peppiness, but a MT would be fun, and could make it seem a bit peppier. Then again, is was nice going from my 100 hp Caravan to the 170 hp Quest (and the Quest has more torque, and the mpg is better).

This is the new family friendly XLT Premium wagon:



Inside Line

bobw3

I currently own an '07 Fit, and I don't see anything in this new group of subcompacts (fiesta, mazda2, etc) that have the interior space of the Fit for the exterior size. In the back of the Fit you can fit 2 adults comfortably and have 21CuFt of cargo space behind the back seats, and space for bags and other small items under the 2nd row seats. The MPG of my Fit is in the low to upper 30mpg depending on the type of driving I do. I guess if interior space isn't a big factor for folks, then some of these other new Sub's would be okay, even though the quality of the Honda Fit has an outstanding track record which to me is also very important to me.

ateixeira

One negative is that passengers in the back don't have a lot of room. They need to be about 5' 10' tall at most and not too wide

It's tighter than that. The front seats have to be moved up for adults to fit behind you, basically.

tifighter

You'd look good in one of these TC's, Steve; I like them.

I'd hate to be a product planner at a automaker. We complain that we don't get the Euro stuff, then a company brings something niche-y over, then we complain about what it doesn't have. The cars normal Europeans drive everyday ARE slow. And, I don't know if i'd call the Transit Connect mileage lousy. People on the TC forums are getting a solid mid-20's combined and up to 28-29 highway...same as a Mazda5 with a lot more room. Would it be better with a stick, diesel, awd, and everything else people say it needs to succeed? Maybe. Would you buy one for $31k? Probably not, but Europeans would.

But lets think like Ford for a moment: the first time someone suggested bringing this over in a meeting, they likely got laughed out of the conference room. If you are going to bring over something that really has no precedent in the US market, you're going to go bring a tight assortment to lower initial cost and risk. What would be least risky in the US? Yep, AT and gas engine. Cargo-only version and version with second row. Few colors, few options: these things are going to have to get disassembled at port anyhow, so let's keep it simple. Let's see if they sell, and if so, we'll revisit the offering. And it looks like that's what they are doing...now for 2011, there's a more passenger-friendly XLT Premium (dumb name), and if that sells, maybe they will take it further. I too would prefer a stick, however.

(Sidenote- I'd bet Ford does not have an existing small diesel that can meet US emission requirements; the astronomical cost to develop one for a model that may or may not sell is not smart business. Don't forget, Honda poured money into developing a diesel for the US and failed the initial test...they elected not to continue.)

nippononly

I looked at one of these at length at the auto show yesterday, and one thing I found remarkable was the relatively low price tag of $22Kish for a vehicle with such utility. Now that was the cargo version, and I know the one with seats in the back costs more, but it can still be had for under $25K, I believe, and it blows away all other vans in the segment in utility and cargo space/storage.

The Mazda5 has nothing on this for utility, although it does have an available stick shift, something it seems like they could give the Transit Connect without much cost (and they really should offer the stick, for the mileage benefits you mention and others).

I sat in a Mazda5 and while I don't remember exactly what it was that made an impression on me, my overall thought was that it is ripe for a remodel, which I guess it gets shortly eh?

As for the Fit, the thing that always makes it stand out is the space for cargo and people behind the front seats. Thing is, while that is nice and all, some people like me buy subcompacts to be their commute cars and don't really need the space. By contrast, the Fiesta is so small in back that even a child would have a tough time fitting once the seat in front of them is occupied by an average size adult.

My priorities in no particular order are emissions rating, fuel economy, and handling. The Fit does well in the handling department, but only average in the emissions department and with the advent of the Mazda2 and Fiesta and the continuing existence of the Mini and Yaris, it is distinctly BELOW average in the fuel economy department for this class.

Also consider that several cars in the COMPACT class, a whole size bigger, substantially beat Fit's mileage now, including the new Cruze and Elantra and supposedly the new Focus that will be available in just a couple of months.Even the Civic's mileage is about even with the Fit's, and they will need to improve that rating substantially for next year's redo if they hope to keep the Civic fuel-economy-competitive.

tifighter

Wow, nippon, I missed you at the SF show by a day; I was there on Saturday...we could have driven in the Land Rover sand box together... :P

ateixeira

Unfortunately the new Mazda5 followed the Nagare design theme - i.e. the ugly smiley face.

I like Ford's little van but let's remember diesel costs a bunch more than gas here in the USA. Around me there is a big difference - $2.99 for regular vs. $3.53 for diesel.

hpmctorque

When comparing fuel economy, one has to consider the additional cost of premium for the Mini. That said, I gather from a recent message that you think the Mini is worth it's premium price, compared to the other cars in its class. Is that correct?
Shifty feels the same, and the relatively low depreciation for the Mini also supports this view. If the Mini puts more of a smile on your face that the others when you drive it, that's certainly worth a premium.

Have you test drive a Mini, and. if so, what are your impressions?

You mentioned the Cruze's fuel economy. Would you consider one?

ateixeira

It's rated for 42mpg highway but only the Eco model. What I don't like is they gave it a smaller fuel tank to save weight, and that reduces range, which is the #1 reason I want fuel economy in the first place. Dumb.

Check out a new Elantra - handsome, and 40mpg no matter which model (or even transmission) you choose. Manual or auto, both come with 6 speeds, too.

stever

I think I could live with "solid mid-20's combined and up to 28-29 highway".

But my '99 Quest has been getting low 20's combined and for a long time there I was able to get 27-28 on the highway without trying too hard.

Regular gas around here is running $3.09 right now, before my grocery coupons that usually knock it down a dime a gallon. Sure makes the idea of the bigger Prius that's coming appealing. But it would be nice tooling around in a blue Transit Connect , and the ground clearance would have to be better. A 5 speed and routinely hitting 30 mpg would be a bit sweeter.

I think we would have liked the Elantra Touring we looked hard at during Cash for Clunkers too Juice. Not exactly a subcompact any more than the Prius is though.

tifighter

I looked up the ground clearance on the Transit Connect - 7.9 inches. Pretty impressive. Let's put some snow tires on it and go skiing...

I like the idea of the "Prius5" too, but I'm guessing it won't be cheap. I have to think there are a lot or Prius owners that would trade up to it.

explorerx4

Some vehicles get close to EPA mileage and others do not.
My '04 focus was rated at 33 mpg highway, but the one time I took it on a long trip, I averaged 37.5 mpg, uncorrected for the 2% under measurement of the odometer.
Last month, I was just able to beat the 27 mpg highway rating for my AWD Fusion on a return run from Indiana. Whole trip was 25.8.

nippononly

Was that Land Rover thing just ridiculous or was it just me? Drivers were inching along on this course I could have done in my Subaru without missing a beat, and it took them so long to go around this 100-yard course that it was an hour to wait just to try it!

But yes, I was intending to get out there Saturday but couldn't make it until yesterday. It was obvious the tides have turned - GM and Ford were crowded; Ford had a whole line of Fiestas people seemed to really like while the Volt was a mob scene! Honda in particular was where the crickets were chirping, but Toyota wasn't packed either.

nippononly

Yes, I have driven the Mini, and the thing is amazing in terms of handling. No matter where you try to fling it, it just goes there. It is VERY peppy around town, and even on the highway when you need to pass. It is comfortable enough, and I love the looks. And it gets one of the best fuel economy ratings in the segment. For me the worst aspect is the interior, but I could live with it. I particularly dislike that everything is chrome, that everything is operated by toggle switches on the center stack, and that the speedometer is about 3 feet wide and has the radio face in it. Why put the radio face in the speedo? Make the speedo smaller and mount the radio below it!

Would I consider the Cruze? Well, it is supposedly the "small car that drives like a big one" even more so than the Cobalt was, and that one was already steeped in that characteristic. Me, I like small cars to drive like small cars but I realize that is the minority view in the U.S. So I would consider one but only if I were shopping for compact cars instead of their smaller siblings, and then the Mazda3 would probably win the day for me. Of course, the Mazda has one of the lowest fuel ecnomy ratings in the compact class, so perhaps I would end up with a Civic as a compromise. I find all the compact cars fairly uninspiring right now, including Chevy's "small car that drives like a big one".

I wish they would fix up the Aveo into something even a LITTLE BIT competitive, because I would love to see how they might best the Fiesta.

iluvmysephia1

that the 2011 Ford Fiesta is the best of the subcompacts right now. It's driving dynamics can't be beat in this class, 'cept for the Mini-Cooper. But this new subcompact from Ford is actually over-engineered for this class...Henry Ford would've been proud to see this baby. One obvious reason is the price-point, only $13,990 for the very Fiesta I would buy right now. That would be the 2011 Ford Fiesta S sedan with the 5-speed manual transmission. Roll-up windows are standard with this baby!

But all of the features included starting with the more than capable 1.6L I4 producing 120hp at 6,350 rpm. Toting sequential multiport electronic fuel injection. It's just that Ford has tuned this thing so tightly to how I would like it, tight for twisties but yet reviewers are saying that it actually smoothes over normal potholes and bumps, much like a larger luxury car would. They accomplish this with Independent MacPherson struts with stabilizer bar in front and Twist Beam with coil springs on the rear, known pinnings, yes, but that's just what you want in the rear to provide the hold around turns, but still providing some give...and take. I want to test drive one of these to experience the "nibble steering", it supposedly helps keep your steering wheel corrected automatically while on the expressway.

I'll test drive one before too long and make sure the test drive includes a freeway excursion. This could be my return to the domestic manufacturing field. I am so impressed by Ford lately. I had heard of this car for months (actually years) but after studying the way Ford has engineered this car intensely I am really, really impressed.

nippononly

Umm, I'm not sure who it is agreed with, but it isn't me. If I had to replace my car today, I would choose between the CRZ, the Fit, and the Mini. Probably go with the Mini to get the factory moonroof and the cute factor all rolled up into one car.

But I'm very glad the Fiesta is back, and if they ever build an SVT version I will be a lot more interested than I am currently!

Come on Fiat, move up the debut of the Abarth!.... ;-)

plekto

The real issue with any of them, IMO, is that they are FWD, which just kills any real ability to actually be "sporty". People go on about the Mini, but the fact is that it has a 34 ft turning radius(same as a Civic, give or take a few inches) and while it gives the illusion of great handling due to its narrow width, it actually doesn't handle as well as an IS250 or even like the older MR2 did.

Unfortunately, there are very few options that are small and RWD, but almost any of the older classics that are set up like that will pummel a Mini day in and day out. I'd in fact rather have an old BMW 2002 or even a Volvo 240 turbo over yet another front wheel drive car that's more fashion statement than it is an actual driving person's car.

This also applies to most of the rest as well. It's not just Mini that's the problem here. The thread asks what's wrong with today's compacts? It's that with the advances in technology such as stability control, traction control, ABS, and so on, there are still no affordable RWD (and very few AWD) options despite FWD no longer being an absolute must.

Note - you can get an AWD version of almost every last car sold in Japan. In Japan, that is. Want an AWD Fit? An AWD Civic? How about an AWD Corolla?

OK - that's the second problem. The cars do exist but aren't imported here because.. I can only assume that it's because the people in Japan and Europe think that American's can't drive their way out of a shopping mall parking lot.

:sick:

nippononly

I agree with you up to a point, but I will bet you a Mini will out-slalom an IS250 any day of the week. I am sure it would leave a Civic totally in the dust, except for the SI which is itself a very good FWD handler, relatively speaking. If I get some time I might check the numbers and see if my gut feeling is backed up by any numbers there! :-P

I will commiserate with you regarding the total lack of small sporting RWD cars, but that doesn't change the question, which is what are you going to do when it comes time to replace your car? Wait several more years in the hopes that more RWD choices will become available? And when they do offer one, it is always big-engined because RWD is the "sporty" choice, so any car with RWD "must" have a ton of power and crap fuel economy. Look at the Genesis coupe. How big of a whale did that end up being? Yes, it handles relatively well and it has decent fuel economy, but I doubt it would beat 30 mpg (or even APPROACH 30 mpg) in daily commuting, which makes it totally unacceptable to me for that purpose.

When all the cars get back to being RWD, which they should have done a decade ago, there will be small, low-powered cars that are truly fun to drive just because they are so light and they are RWD. But it isn't going to happen for a long time.

And AWD? AWD sucks down the fuel economy of every car it touches. I can barely average 28-29 mpg in my Subaru, which ISN'T used for commuting and only makes 170 hp. There are a number of RWD cars available with more than 300 hp that will also beat my Subaru for fuel economy!!! I like the driving characteristics of AWD, but unfortunately it hurts fuel economy way too much to be viable as a commute choice.

hpmctorque

Thanks for your input. I agree on all your points. The Mini is very appealing, but...

I test drove a previous generation Mini (not the "S"), and based on that, can relate with what you said.

bobw3

All the new subcompacts seem to be averaging in the mid-30MPG from what I've read on different blogs, fueleconomy.gov, etc., which is about the same as the Fit from what I've read, particularly with the newer versions of the Fit, but I agree that the newer Sub's have slightly better MPG.

But as you said, a lot of folks will use these new Sub's strictly as a commuter vehicle, so that means they're using their larger vehicle for other trips, vacations, etc., but if you had the Fit, you could hold 2 adults and 2 kids and their luggage for all sorts of weekend and longer road trips. So if a person had a Fit, it could be used more as a multipurpose vehicle for commutes and family road trips.

Because of the versatiility of the Fit and it's interior space, it could be used instead of a larger vehicle for other uses. So if a person is really insterested in MPG and emmissions, it's best to look at all the vehicles driven in their household and maximize all of them. Bottom line for me is that some of these Sub's are too limited in their use (i.e.commuter car only). Of course your second "big" car could then be the Fit

plekto

Now, I'll be completely fair here. I had no idea other than a rough hunch based upon driving both.

Mini Cooper S - Slalom 68.1 34.2 turning radius.
Lexus IS250 - Slalom 68.2 (one size larger vehicle no less) 33.4 turning radius.
RWD is a massive improvement.

I'd love to see a RWD mini again.

texases

"I'd love to see a RWD mini again. "

:confuse: again :confuse:

plekto

Yeah my bad. Heh. Well, you know what I mean.

nippononly

Yeah, I would LOVE to see a RWD Mini for the first time!

But BMW already tried that, and we got the 1-series, which is basically 95% of a 3-series at 97% of the price. Nothing small, light, or fuel-efficient about that model.

If these automakers could just get a half ton of lead out of all these models (and in some cases a WHOLE ton), they would be a lot more fun. As it is, I have to buy a Mini or a Fit just to get the curb weight under 3000 pounds!

plekto

What's sad is that the famous "Swedish Brick" Volvo 240 was fairly large, bulky, and made with a lot more metal than plastic. And originally came in at a whopping 2800 lbs! It was considered "heavy" for its day.

A RX-8 is considered light at 3000lbs. 3000lbs in a car that size is really quite heavy.

MY 1967 Mercedes 230S was 3000lbs exactly. We're talking the size of a Camry, with thick sheet metal and zero plastic anywhere. The driver seat alone weighs as much as a Fit's entire set of seats. Something's dreadfully wrong. It's almost as if they are bulking up the cars with dead weight on purpose.

I change my mind - #1 is now "weight". A small car should be small and lightweight as well as also safe. If Volvo of all people could do it 30 years ago, they can still do it today.

iluvmysephia1

2011 Ford Fiesta is the best of the subcompacts right now. It's driving dynamics can't be beat in this class, 'cept for the Mini-Cooper.

Hey, didn't you read where I said 'cept the Mini-Cooper? I prefer the 2011 Ford Fiesta more than the Mini-Cooper, though I bought a VHS copy of the movie 'The Italian Job' with Charlize Theron and Mark Wahlberg because of the fact that they used Mini-Coopers in the movie. The City of L.A. told the movie's producers that they would have to turn the Mini-Coopers from ICE engines to all-electrical propulsion to go to underground L.A. to film. So they did just that, and, what's more, they converted the Mini's to all-electrical propulsion within a few days is all. So I like Mini's, too, I just don't love them.So, can't cha just tell that engineers could make better progress building all-electrics for the masses, if they only had the backing of local and city and state governments and the U.S. government. The U.S. government is working on supporting all-electrics, though they could sure be doing more. But that is amazing how fast those Mini-Cooper's in 'The Italian Job' were converted!

ateixeira

Just watch the options.

Autoblog spec'd out a Countryman at over $47 grand:

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/11/23/mini-countryman-configurator-powers-up/

And that's before the John Cooper Works treatment.

For that sort of money the label should say "Porsche" or "Lotus".

fintail

It kills me too that a fintail weighs only 3000 lbs, when it is built out of such thick metal and heavy components, along with being very sound structurally and for the time a very safe car. Then again, it has no heavy power assists, and lots of glass. A lot of the dead weight is in the gadgetrt, and I believe, "safety" designs that are made to pass specific media-observed tests.

texases

"and I believe, "safety" designs that are made to pass specific media-observed tests. "

As bad as it is now, I bet it'll get worse with the new, tougher, rating system. Gotta get those '5 stars'...wonder how that'll work with the new tougher mpg regs :confuse:

hpmctorque

There is currently an emphasis on weight reduction, as a key factor for improving fuel efficiency. As you pointed out, though, the new cars incorporate a lot of safety and convenience features, plus performance enhancing features, that add a considerable amount of weight. I suppose that, over time, some weight can be taken out by substituting new-age materials (which tend to drive up cost), and miniaturization.

fintail

Pedestrian safety garbage started by worthless EU bureaucrats collecting their own undeserved personal fortunes will bloat and uglify cars even more, no doubt. Combine that with the poor styling seen in general, and the cost-cutting at any price mantra of so many...and things will be interesting

fintail

Who is emphasizing this? I don't see many new versions of existing models becoming lighter. I think the "convienence" stuff weighs the most - power seats, windows, ICE and such, weighs a lot. We can hope modern technology can be used to reverse this. When small cars fly past 3000lbs, something is wrong.

ateixeira

Gotta get those '5 stars'...

Did you see NHTSA's new test where they slide sideways in to a telephone pole?

Because that happens to often in real life, all those soccer moms power drifting their family cars.

They're grasping for straws and now testing unlikely events.

kyfdx

$47K... I can build my own... at a very high level... for about $35-$36K... still crazy money... but an X3, similarly equipped is about $10K more..

texases

X3? I'm waiting to see what the X1's going to sell for.

hpmctorque

There's little doubt that the convenience and safety stuff are here to stay, as will the emphasis by automakers to improve fuel efficiency. One way to reconcile these disparate goals is to reduce weight. That means substituting aluminum and other light weight materials for steel, and working to make steel itself lighter. Who's doing this? Virtually every automaker and component supplier is striving to reduce the weight of body panels, components and accessories. This, plus improved efficiency and aerodynamics are employed to compensate for the ever increasing number of features in vehicles.

In addition to more safety and convenience features, new versions of existing models have gotten larger in recent years. There are signs that this trend will not continue, or may even be reversed in some cases. For example, the next generation Civic and Accord will be slightly smaller than the current ones, from what I've read. It'll be interesting to see if they will also be lighter. I'm not counting on much reduction, but maybe there will be some. Also, Audi, for one, is taking weight out by materials substitution.

Incidentally, I agree with you regarding the negative effect that pedestrian safety is having on style. I don't know about you, but for the first time in my life I'm having a difficult time identifying quite a few new models, because the lines and styling cues have become so similar in many cases.

explorerx4

was the slalom course the same layout?.

plekto

Same magazine, same layout. The Mini's nice, but being front wheel drive means the steering is lacking that last 15-20 degrees or so of movement.

fintail

Automakers might have to modify profit margins in the short term to use newer material technology - hopefully they will realize it will be an investment in future profits...if the American casino capitalism corporate culture can see past the 6 month mark.

Fatter cars for fatter people maybe? 2006 Civic doesn't seem smaller than a 1993 Accord.

The high snout look along with gaping mouths is definitely from pedestrian requirements. It's far from attractive.

alltorque

Incidentally, I agree with you regarding the negative effect that pedestrian safety is having on style. I don't know about you, but for the first time in my life I'm having a difficult time identifying quite a few new models, because the lines and styling cues have become so similar in many cases.

Amen to that. BMW X-series are tricky to spot in isolation. Is it an X3 or an X5 ? Is it an X3 or an X1 ? Saw a new Audi A1 yesterday. In the mirror I thought it was an A3 until it passed me and I saw the badge. Ditto A4s and A6s. Small hatches from Japanese or Korean manufacturers ? I give up. At least the RR Phantom is still distinctive - as it darned well should be for the money. Think Rolls Royce attitude to pedestrian safety is : "Hey, look, I'm huge, you can't not see me ................now get out of the way". I rather like that.

hpmctorque

Yeah, unlike an increasing number of mass market cars, Rollers and Maybachs are still readily recognizable.

stever

You could pick up a used Hummer H1 too. Can't miss recognizing it either. Hate to have one do a right turn on red as I'm crossing in the crosswalk and smack me though. That happened to a friend of mine six or so years ago, but it was a sedan. She smacked down on the hood and rolled off, none the worse for wear.

If it had been an F-150, she'd gone to hospital.

benjaminh

The Honda Fit is the only one of these subcompacts to make the 2011 Car and Driver top ten list. They have a nice video on their site about what makes it so great:

http://www.caranddriver.com/

I know it's out of the range of this category, but the Mazda5 is kinda like an enlarged Fit:

Mazda5
Length: 181.5 in. Width: 69 in.
Height: 64.2 in. Wheel Base: 108.3 in.
Ground Clearance: 5.5 in. Curb Weight: 3422 lbs.

nippononly

Finally got a chance to take a proper drive in a Mazda2 today, and I really did like it a lot. Apart from that problem I mentioned before, that the "pod" at the bottom of the center stack where the shifter sits is so big that it encroaches on your right leg, there is almost nothing I can naysay about this thing. I would wish for more precision on-center from the steering and more feedback, but that is a complaint I have about every single electric power steering setup I have come across.

This thing is a blast to drive around town - you can throw it into corners and curves and it just sails through with minimal body roll. The engine is always peppy enough to feel fast and fun, although as anyone (like myself) who drives daily in a car powered by a 1.5L engine will tell you, the real oomph is above 3500 rpm. That's fine by me - just makes it more fun to drive when you are in that sort of mood. :-)

It has an excellent shifter, with short throws and well-defined gates. It has a light, easily read clutch and strong brakes. And the seats in the Touring are better than those in the base car - firmer and made of a different material. I would definitely go with the Touring for the alloys and cruise alone, not to mention those seats.

Inside, the Fit has it beat (of course) for rear-seat flexibility and potential cargo space; the 2's back seats fold but create their own shelf when folded, so it isn't flat from tailgate to the front seats. Curious that Mazda couldn't figure THAT out better after how many years of making hatchbacks. You can also see where cost-cutting took place - the headliner is ultra-thin, there is only one grab handle (for the front passenger), and the dome light is straight out of 1975 in design and operation. But overall it's a very nice little package for $16,5 - $1000 less than a Fit Sport which DOESN'T have the ESC the Mazda2 has at that price - you have to go for the NAV package to get ESC in the Fit, and I believe they only offer it with the automatic transmission too, thereby pushing the price over $20K while also sucking all the fun out of the car with the mandatory slushbox.

Right now this is my favorite car in its class with a price well under $20K. If I were going to spend more than $20K my money would still be on the Mini Cooper I think. But I hope Mazda sells lots of Mazda2s - spoke to the sales manager and he says the green is the most popular color for 2s, and that would be my choice also. :-)

ateixeira

Glad to see you finally got behind the wheel. I like 'em too, but I've only driven the Fiesta so far.

the "pod" at the bottom of the center stack where the shifter sits is so big that it encroaches on your right leg

Mazda needs to hire more ergonomicists. Seriously.

The CX9 has a bump in the center stack right at my knee level wish limits knee room, plus it's hard.

The Miata (2008 and prior, at least) have bottle holders in the doors that torture your left knee.

Memo to Mazda: humans have legs, and they want to be comfortable. Putting hard surfaces up against those does NOT help. Wake up!

I got the 08 Miata but I rigged some black padding that blends in fairly well to rest my left knee. It went from terrible to tolerable. Thankfully it was fixed for '09.

I know one 08 Miata owner who took a dremel to the door panel and cut out that bump, seriously!