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Comments
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
The supercharged engine was voted in the Top 10, not the regular engine included in the vast majority of the cars. And Ward's doesn't rank based upon reliability.
GM doesn't exactly make the best entry level cars for the youth, however they aren't all as horrible as you make em' sound.
Consumer Reports' survey found its reliability to be "far worse than average," putting it at the bottom of the small car survey results. (Even the Focus weighed in as "average.") Review the federal government's TSB website, and the Cobalt has significantly more technical service bulletins than does its competition. Not good things when trying to compete against Civic and Corolla.
The matter of TSBs can be easily controlled by the company simply not releasing them to fix things. That keeps the count down. However GM apparently is issuing them for the convenice of their customers and getting things fixed; they could have taken the opposite approach and fixed them under secret warranty when the car came back in for required service.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
In other words, you want to deny the obvious, and prefer to believe in fantastic media conspiracies, rather than the wealth of factual data that shows that automakers such as GM simply can't compete.
You can live in a world of fantasy all you like, but retail sales figures are the ultimate barometer of success, and they are clearly going against GM. Putting your head in the sand, and trying to pretend that Buick can compete effectively isn't going to change reality.
As is true with any addict, the first step on the road to recovery is to admit that you have a problem. Being addicted to excuses is only going to kill off GM and help the competition.
The bottom line for me is I like the design of the Cobalts interior the best and the lay-out and equipment featured are pretty nice. I also find the exterior styling of the Cobalt to be much nicer. BTW- I hope your Mazda serves you well.
Rocky
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Rocky
>You can live in a world of fantasy all you like
>Putting your head in the sand,
>As is true with any addict,
>Being addicted to excuses
All in all you've been very arrogant and discourteous in your response.
Are there any other ways you want to try to criticize me and my post?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Do you believe that your endless defenses of GM will help the company to make a profit or to sell more vehicles?
I find it curious that being out of touch with the needs of the consumer is confused with being loyal. If you were truly loyal to GM, you would be wanting to find ways that it could make money and stay in business, not to pretend that the problems don't exist. Very much akin to the enabler who cushions the blow for the alcoholic, instead of letting him hit bottom so that he can achieve his epiphany and begin to recover.
It's possible I'm not the most critical person in the world but I just don't see a huge difference. The biggest thing I see is that there is a huge bias against GM (and most domestic makes) among the auto press and among many readers of these forums. You can call it a "conspiracy" if you want but the press (especially) just don't criticize the big 3 imports as they do domestics makes. I'm sure some of it is deserved given the past but what they are putting out now, I see it as being just as good as what the competition is offering.
Date posted: 04-21-2006
WOODCLIFF LAKE, N.J. — The all-new BMW 3 Series coupe will arrive in the United States this September, complete with a new twin-turbo inline six-cylinder engine that churns out 300 horsepower and 300 pound-feet of torque, company officials said Friday.
BMW said this 3.0-liter engine is the most "powerful engine within BMW's wide range of inline-six driving machines that does not wear an M badge." It features high-precision fuel injection and an all-aluminum crankcase.
BMW said it will offer two 3 Series coupes in the U.S., the 335i and a 230-hp 328i coupe. In addition to the standard six-speed manual, both models will be offered with an optional six-speed Steptronic automatic transmission. The company also said that for the first time, Intelligent BMW xDrive all-wheel drive will be available in a coupe.
The four-passenger coupe will come standard in the U.S. market with xenon adaptive headlights.
What this means to you: A hot new BMW with a high-performance engine — and, presumably, a lower sticker price than the M line.
What this means to me:
Wished they made a 4 door version.
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=110138
Rocky
There is a difference between a "bias" and a belief formed based upon facts and experience. GM's bad reputation was earned, not a crazy mistake.
I'm sure some of it is deserved given the past but what they are putting out now, I see it as being just as good as what the competition is offering.
Consumer surveys from sources such as JD Power and Consumer Reports show that buyers don't agree with that. The enthusiast press doesn't agree with that. The ODI database of defects doesn't confirm that.
It's time to accept that there are fundamental differences in assembly and design methods that put GM at the back of the line. This article from Bloomberg illustrates just one example:
Foundry workers at a Toyota Motor Corp. plant in Troy, Missouri, laughed out loud back in 2003 when Toyota Executive Vice President Kosuke Shiramizu traveled from Japan and gave them a new assignment: Cut in half the cost of building V-6 engines for the company's Camry sedan by 2005.
``We were thinking they were either crazy or didn't really mean it,'' says Robert Lloyd, 51, who, as president of Toyota's Bodine Aluminum Inc. unit, would be expected to deliver on Shiramizu's goal.
Shiramizu, however, had a secret weapon. Back in Japan, 300 engineers were working on a new technology for pouring molten aluminum into molds to create parts for engines. The new equipment, part of a larger Toyota cost-cutting program called Simple Slim, allows Toyota to use smaller and cheaper molds.
The new engine technology is now in use not only at Bodine, which Toyota bought in 1990, but also at foundries in Japan and China. Partly as a result, the cost of building an engine for the redesigned Camry that was scheduled to go on sale in March will be about $1,000, half the cost of an engine for the previous generation of Camrys, says Gary Convis, executive vice president for North American manufacturing.
GM's latest "solution" to its problems centers on cutting wages and benefits, rather than prioritizing efficient operations and developing products that people want. Instead of whining about competition, Toyota confronts its competition by creating a cost advantage that doesn't come at the expense of employee morale. Too bad its rivals don't seem to be taking notes.
While it was earned, it was earned a long time ago and things have changed since then. While bad things Honda and Toyota have recently done are dismissed as being fixed, GM is still being punished for things that should have long ago been relegated to the dust heap of history.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Moreover, the rest of the world did not wait for them to catch up - while named Cobalt is a big improvement over Cavalier, this is irrelevant, as comparison shold be made with its contemporaries, not arguably worst car in '04 market (Cavalier was allright in '95, mediocre in '00, by '04 it became shamefull excuse for a car). As I said before, in '00 Cobalt might have been a big hit, '05 Cobalt has a relevance of '01 Cavalier, soon to be '04. If you have nearly obsolete product upon its introduction, your years count double, i.e. one year feels like two.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Believing that info coming from CR and the others is factual is a very big problem too because those data are not fact by any stretch of the imagination.
I'm only putting this out here because I don't want some innocent bystander to be mislead.
Typical response, but you've provided no proof. If you're going to make allegations like that, you should provide some evidence that is credible and believable.
GM has improved a great deal at building cars since the junk from the 80's even though their are a few GM cars I liked from the 80's.
Rocky
Rocky
Here's a detailed description of the new "Ultimate Driving Machine" BMW 335i Coupe.
Like I said before, it would be a great car if it had 4 doors and I'd love to consider it as my next. Of course price would be a factor. Neways does anyone have a good guesss at how much this new coupe is going to cost. It's really ashame the next M3 sedan won't be affordable, unless you have a six-figure income like Lemko
Rocky
What? Pontiac is making the GTO again?
The major problem with the 3 series is that they are to small.
The problem with anything from Bavarian Motor Works is that they are over priced.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
There already is a 325i and 330i sedan (and a wagon as well,) they were released last spring. The turbo variant is unique to the upcoming coupe, but body styles for the 3-series sedans tend to precede the coupes by about a year.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Reliability is just a minimum starting point for achieving a competitive edge, the vehicles also need other distinctive qualities if they are to win back customers across the board.
That's the problem I was pointing out about your posts. Making a point doesn't require diminishing others or being discourteous as the Rules of the Road state.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
You always challenge others to prove it. You need to supply the proof, for once.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
My next car (hopefully) will be a 4 cylinder Accord or fusion. Ford did anice job with this vehicle. I just hope it is not haunted wiht a lot of problems like the Focus.
It's your theory, it's up to you to back it up.
If your position is so accurate, I would think that you would be thrilled to prove it so that you could influence peoples' opinions. But you can't prove it, so you point fingers, instead.
On the other hand, the evidence on the other side is useful Let's take the Cobalt -- the relative lack of reliability reported in the CR survey correlates to what is reported by JD Power, which ranks it below cars such as the Corolla and Civic. It also correlates with the TSB's, which are for the very same problems reported in CR. Three sources that match up with each other.
Now, provide your proof, please.
The truth is none of them have the guts to make a diesel car.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
It's a decent car for the money, but don't you think that's a bit of a stretch ?
The major problem with the 3 series is that they are to small.
They are indeed a hair to small, but would still work with 4 doors.
The problem with anything from Bavarian Motor Works is that they are over priced.
We agree again, but they also hold their value like a Harley Davidson.
Rocky
That would seem to be the case. But since some of these posters keep making the allegation, I think it's time for them to either prove it or else stop repeating it.
For example, I'd like to see if someone can show us repeated instances in which Consumer Reports reliability data deviates sharply and consistently from other comprehensive quality surveys such as those conducted by JD Power. Accusations are more believable if they are accompanied by proof, and if someone can show that this happens and happens often, then I will take notice and be happy to look further. (I personally have no interest in making sure that CR is credible or not.)
Rocky
I don't know ask GM they were the ones who first used the phrase "The Ultimate Driving Machine" when they advertised the GTO back in 1967.
They are indeed a hair to small, but would still work with 4 doors.
Not if you cannot fit into it to drive it.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
How big/tall are you ? Is your real name Willian "The Refridgerator" Perry ? I'm a pretty big feller at 6'2 245 and I can comfortably fit in a BMW 3 car. Well David Robinson of the San Antonio Spurs, took out the front seat in his BMW 3 and rode in the back seat just so he could drive a BMW 3 :P
Rocky
Well I have a little more than you in both areas and I do have a large frame. Now while the 3 series has ok head and leg room it offers nothing in shoulder room. Sitting in a "normal" position in the car the door is so close that I cannot put my arm to my side. That makes it to small for me.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Rocky
What do I have to prove? CR does not offer any facts. Period. The only factual information regarding reliability, problems per vehicle, etc. is in the hands of the manufacturers and they do not offer said information up to the public. CR reports nothing more than general survey information sent in by the same subscribers year after year. If you want to use their information properly you need some demographic information as well which they also do not provide.
I personally do not subscribe to or read CR, JD, etc. To choose an automobile all I need to help me decide is a test drive.
So if you still think CR and the like report fact I'd sure like to hear why that is. You also need to understand that I never said those publications are biased or even wrong for that matter so your request for proof is still a mystery to me. They simply are not providing us with any facts and thus should only be used as a guide when making a purchase decision.
That's not an answer, that's a repeat of your unproven allegation. I would appreciate a factually based answer, not your opinion.
The only factual information regarding reliability, problems per vehicle, etc. is in the hands of the manufacturers and they do not offer said information up to the public.
That's obviously false and way off the mark. For one, JD Power wouldn't earn millions of dollars selling data to automakers if the automakers generated it all internally.
So if you still think CR and the like report fact I'd sure like to hear why that is.
I already have -- because the data generally correlates with other sources that are available. Very rarely will you find JD Power reporting results that are considerably different than Consumer Reports. If you can show consistent examples of this, provide it.
I asked you for evidence, but all you did was boast about being an uninformed buyer. ("I personally do not subscribe to or read CR, JD, etc. To choose an automobile all I need to help me decide is a test drive.")
Sorry, but going out of your way to avoid factual information isn't a tribute to your methodology. And in any case, it's hard to take your positions about CR seriously if you don't even read it -- how do you even know what they have to say if you never look at it?
I'll buy that CU's readership may prefer imported cars, but what does that have to do with the results on the domestics. When I've filled out CU survey's on my vehicles, that's what I've done on both the domestics and imports I've owned.
If most CU readers own imports, all that means is they are getting more responses on an Accord/Camry than an Impala, but they should, last I checked, the Cam/cord outsells the domestics. Regardless, how is the info biased? Are the import owners sending in false survey's on domestic vehicles?
The people at CU that report on the cars could give a biased review, but that goes for any magazine. What I look at on CU is the test data, since they run the most standardized performance testing I've seen. Particularly with fuel economy. Which BTW, they have been pretty hard on hybrids, not something I'd expect from a magazine biased towards imports.
Plus, as socal mentioned. I've compared many of CU's and JD Power's results and they generally are similar.
BTW, I've filled out more CU survey's than JD Powers, don't know if that means anything or not.
If you want to buy American check out the Fusion (which you mentioned), Lacrosse CXS and Saturn Aura. All three are decent domestic midsize sedans that I feel are (or will be) competitive in the midsize class.
If CR were to stand by their results they would do a random survey and see how it matches up with their reader survey. They will not do this because they do not want to risk being wrong about American cars being wrong. It kills me that people are so trusting of CR just because they dont accept ad dollars from car companies. I dont believe that CR is necessarily intentionally biased, but I do believe they want their results to be consistent because any rapid improvement in the scores of domestic cars would be a slap in the face to their organization. They have spent the last few decades telling Americans that their money should be spent on Japanese vehicles and they refuse to gather data in an objective manner to put their theory to the test. I would love for a CR defender to explain to me why CR is justified in not doing a true scientific survey, I just want to know why import lovers are so quick to quote CR findings as gospel but dont do the same when JD Power shows domestic models and brands near the top of their intitial and long term quality rankings.
CR is very vague about how it determines what constitutes "average" reliability but as best as I can tell they raise the bar year after year so that the domestic cars stay below average. In other words, the dozens of domestic cars they dont recommend arent unreliable, they are just slightly less reliable than the extremely high "average" threshold and thus they look bad. I would love it if CR actually put a problems per vehicle number next to every vehicle so we could see just how unreliable these american cars really are. They will not do that because they know the differences are too small to make that much of a difference. Instead what they give you are a bunch of stupid bar graphs with scores showing Japanese models scoring well and "recommended" checks next to their names. Even the few american cars that get passing grades on reliability get terrible scores in CR's vague model evaluation system.
I look at both CU & JD powers results and I don't see one being more informative than the other when looking at how their charts are made. CU gives marks on individual systems and JD does not.
CU uses a percentage above/below avg and JD gives you "the rest", "about avg", "better than most", and "among the best". With no ratings on specific systems.
To me they are similar. Anytime you ask the owner to rate his/her car, you'll get pretty subjective info in my opinion. It's like asking a student to grade his own homework.
Sure they use different methods to sample their data, if I claim that JD Powers results are the best money can buy, can it be disproved?
And no, I don't need CU or JD to prove the domestics are good or bad. My current ownership experience with a Ford and a Chevy makes it easy to understand why both companies are losing sales.
CR recommends the 2005 CTS, claiming that it has average reliability.
CR also makes similar comments about the STS, commenting: "The STS is very competitive in its category. Our tested 3.6-liter V6 sedan was quick and responsive. An ultra-smooth and powerful 4.6-liter Northstar V8 is also available. Both engines use a smooth and responsive five-speed automatic. All-wheel drive is optional. The ride is firm, yet supple. Handling is taut and agile. The cabin is quiet, and interior trim and assembly is Cadillac's best effort in recent years..."
(Incidentally, JD Power was more critical of the STS than was CR, giving it two stars out of five for overall quality.)
I also noticed that CR recommends the Ford Five Hundred and the Lincoln Town Car. (The enthusiast press isn't a big fan of either one, but there you go.)
Perhaps you think CR isn't permitted to give a negative review of a Big 2.5 car? If that's what one might define as "bias", I'd find a different definition.
If CR were to stand by their results they would do a random survey and see how it matches up with their reader survey.
I'd also prefer a random survey, but it's pretty simple to understand: it's cheaper for CR to send a survey to subscribers than it is to hunt down new car buyers. JD Power is paid by the automakers, and can presumably get buyer info from the car companies, reducing its search costs. Contrast that to CR, which unlike the enthusiast press, does not even accept free test cars, opting instead to buy its vehicles.
If anything, CR might be avoiding potential bias they might otherwise get if they opted instead to work from lists provided by the automakers, if those makers excluded from their mailing lists any buyers who gave low CSI scores. And whereas JD Power surveys about 50,000 owners, CR has about one million surveys returned to it, so the sample sizes should certainly be sufficient.
CR is very vague about how it determines what constitutes "average" reliability
Actually, it lists in its rankings the percentages that apply to each of its five categories, so I have no idea what you mean by this. "Average" would mean average when compared to other cars in the survey, based upon reported problems.
To me Impala just seems like a car GM should have released in 1999, not 2006. I am sure that it would have been a hit in 1999. For 2006 it is just too outdated. Having said all that, I still think that Impala is GM's best effort at making a pleasant rental car.
And that, in a nutshell, is what is wrong with GM. They build numerous cars that are worth $25 per day, and not enough cars that are worth $25,000.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,