GM, Ford, Toyota, Honda...Who will sell you your next car?

hansienna

NO way. No SUV has the useable interior space of the Sienna, Odyssey, GC, T&C.
With the rapidly escalating cost of fuel, the minivan is the only sensible choice if more than 2 people and luggage are taken on a trip. What SUV will get the decent gas mileage of the Sienna, Odyssey, GC, or T&C...and have comfortable space for 7 or 8 people + all necessary luggage carried inside the vehicle?

rockylee

A 2007 Chevy Tahoe hybrid :P It get's over 30 mpg HWY and can tow a boat and haul alot more gear.

Rocky

P.S. I'm sorry to be a smart [non-permissible content removed].

dieselone

And it had the 2nd row passenger side bucket seat installed incorrectly.

Hey your import owner, according to these guys, you shouldn't be admitting any problems....

If it's such a piece of junk, maybe you should look at one of GMs minivans, LOL

dieselone

P.S. I'm sorry to be a smart [non-permissible content removed]

We were starting to agree on to many things, so I had to poke a little fun at ya a few posts back.

Regarding the Tahoe Hybrid. I haven't seen any details, I will be more than impressed if it gets 30mpg hwy.

socala4

import owner, according to these guys, you shouldn't be admitting any problems....

I don't understand how this happened. We must have had the wrong mailing address for that 500 million yen Conspiracy Payofff check, I'll be phoning da boyz in Tokyo first thing in the morning...

dieselone

I don't understand how this happened. We must have had the wrong mailing address for that 500 million yen Conspiracy Payofff check, I'll be phoning da boyz in Tokyo first thing in the morning...

LOL

rockylee

Now that was sarcastic, but I'm sure he won't report his problem to Consumer Reports. If Consumer Reports gets any type of problem with Toyota, it goes straight into the trash heap.

Rocky

rockylee

Well take a few deep breaths and start getting impressed. :P

Rocky

rockylee

Well thankfully for you import buyers it won't make ya'lls bible as a problem. Toyota's don't have flaws. They are PEEEERFECT well that's what I hear and Read all the time. :lemon:

Rocky

aley1

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lilengineerboy

Its interesting that they use the waterpump as an example. When getting the rubber band that connects the crank to the cam (the timing belt) replaced every 70k at $650, they also typically replace the water pump "while they are in there."
All of the doemstic cars I have owned had timing chains not belts, so there was no replacement recomendation. I was more accepting of the waterpump failing at 140k on those models.
If you keep replacing it before it fails, then such a failure is unlikely, but its kind of expensive to replace good parts just because they are hard to get to, don't you think...

lemko

Shenanigans!

Oh yeah, I had a Buick LeSabre too as a rental.... better, for a ninety year old! At least that one had SOME power, but guzzled gas like crazy!

What kind of Buick LeSabre did you rent - a 1972 model? If anything, the 3.8 V-6 in recent LeSabres delivers phenomenal fuel economy. My 1988 Park Avenue and girlfriend's 2005 LaCrosse both have the 3.8 V-6. By the way, I'm only 40 and I've owned Buicks since I was 16.

The Toyota Corolla is the perfect conveyance for a 40 year-old secretary.

You were warned back in 1994 not to buy American cars? Shoot, I purchased a new 1994 Cadillac DeVille and after 96K trouble-free miles I traded it for a new 2002 Cadillac Seville STS.

hansienna

No, because I don't waste my spare change on a subscription to "NOT Recommended" for purchase CR. :sick:

dieselone

Its interesting that they use the waterpump as an example. When getting the rubber band that connects the crank to the cam (the timing belt) replaced every 70k at $650

The only timing belt I've had fail was on a domestic, and that was because the water pump siezed (Ford Escort). But that was a long time ago. I certainly wouldn't avoid a car just because it has a timing belt. The Nissan Pathfinder I had was DOHC and had a chain. I know both the 4cyl and v6 in the 07 Camry use chains. Don't know about the rest.

baggs32

I certainly wouldn't avoid a car just because it has a timing belt.

Watch what you say there. Honda is notorious for building interference type motors where if the timing belt breaks the valves get pounded to dust by the pistons. A non-interference type will just "free wheel" with no harm being done to any other internals.

On the other hand, interference type motors tend to have tighter tolerances which is a good thing.

Honda does seem to be using chains more often these days but if you have a motor from them or any other manufacturer with a timing belt, just make sure you know when to replace it.

lemko

Man, does that bring back some memories of high school! I would listen to the oldies on my car radio, and my friend commented, "Why do you listen to this kind of music? Girls don't like this kind of music!" What a dumb comment! I like that kind of music and that's why I listen to it! I could care less what some hypothetical girl likes. This is the same guy I saw pay $51 for shorts with a designer's name on it. I made do with pocket t-shirts, and no-name jeans. Fortunately, most of us drove GM or other domestic cars, so there was little argument over automotive topics.

dieselone

Watch what you say there. Honda is notorious for building interference type motors where if the timing belt breaks the valves get pounded to dust by the pistons. A non-interference type will just "free wheel" with no harm being done to any other internals.

The few vehicles I've had with a timing, I just change the belt at the intervals, many are now 100k miles, and the odds of a belt failing are pretty small. The belt on my '86 did die early, but I beat that car to death. Timing chains can fail too. My FIL had 3 dodge ram vans in a row with a 318 ('78-'87 models), all of them needed a timing chaing replacement by 120k miles.

All I'm saying, is if I like the car enough (what ever it is), I don't have a problem with the risk of a timing belt. That said, I would prefer a chain.

qbrozen

Did it ever occur to you that every poster on Edmunds who disparages a brand they have owned in the past is probably doing so for good reason?

LOL. Its pretty obvious you haven't been around here very long. You seriously have to read everything here over the past few years. Some bashers are quite humorous. When I posted a couple of pages back how someone might adamantly oppose a brand, call it a piece of garbage, a lemon, and nobody should ever buy one ... all for a squeak or rattle ... I'm NOT way off base. Maybe you are one of them and think that is good reason, though.

qbrozen

I'm reading the actual survey question.

well, that's great. as i said in my post, i was reading the FAQ, since that was my only source, and I stated so. So, to clarify, I left out nothing relevant from that source.

I have a couple of pages to catch up on here. Maybe someone actually posted the survey instead of giving us a partial general overview.

socala4

When getting the rubber band that connects the crank to the cam (the timing belt) replaced every 70k at $650, they also typically replace the water pump "while they are in there."

I don't follow this point. Are you trying to claim that water pumps are replaced as routine maintenance items along with timing belts?

If that's your claim, then I'd like to see you prove that. Show us the maintenance schedule of some of these OHC cars with timing belts, and point out the place where it says that water pumps are supposed to be replaced whenever a timing belt is replaced. I don't know anyone who has owned such a car who changed out a water pump every 60,000 miles, whether or not it was needed.

andre1969

It defines "serious" as being based upon "cost, failure, safety or downtime." It goes on to list at least over 100 examples of items that constitute "seriousness" under seventeen categories.

Even here, there's still room for error. It's a safe bet that most participants will just skim through the examples or not bother to read them at all. And what's expensive, dangerous, inconvenient, etc is going to vary from person to person.

For example, when the transmission went out in my parents' '99 Altima, it was under warranty. No expense there. Sure, it was inconvenient, and potentially dangerous depending on when it broke down (on the highway, in an intersection, bad neighborhood, etc). But Nissan handled the problem very well, fixed the car quickly and with no complications, and my parents were on their way. So even though the transmission failed, because Nissan handled it well, I could see someone not marking it down as a problem.

Another example. The catalytic converter is bad in my uncle's '03 Corolla, which has about 102,000 miles on it. He talks about what a good car its been otherwise, and it hasn't let him down. So in his opinion, it's no big deal. From a safety standpoint there's no problem, and the car still runs fine. You can turn off the warning light with a code reader and it'll stay off for awhile. But it's still a failure, and is still going to have to be fixed. I could see someone in this case though, who's happy with the car otherwise, not marking this down, because they figure oh, the car's been fine otherwise, why fault it for this? No car is perfect.

Then there's squeaks and rattles. My Intrepid has a horrible squeal coming from the front left brake. It's just the generic brake chatter...pads are actually fine. It drives some people crazy, and I'm sure it would be enough for some people to mark it down as a problem. But I just crank up the stereo and ignore it! :P And I'm not saying that just because it's a Dodge. I'd probably crank up the stereo on a Honda or Nissan, too!

But if enough people were to complain about a squeak or rattle, it could be enough to give a car bad marks in body integrity, which I believe is the category that would fall under.

CR does at least weigh some factors more heavily than others though, so that if a car shows poorly in body integrity or some other relatively minor category, it won't drag down their overall rating as heavily as, say, transmission or engine problems would.

andre1969

I don't follow this point. Are you trying to claim that water pumps are replaced as routine maintenance items along with timing belts?

Maintenance schedules may not show it, but it is a common practice these days to change the water pump on a car when you do the timing belt. That's because nowadays, the water pump is more buried than in the past. Back in the day, the water pump was basically just a bolt-on thing, not much more complicated to change than the alternator, power steering pump, etc.

If it's any consolation though, the typical interval these days for a timing belt is 105,000 miles. So the chances are, most people will see one timing belt/water pump change over the life of their car.

snakeweasel

I don't follow this point. Are you trying to claim that water pumps are replaced as routine maintenance items along with timing belts?

I have seen people talking about that on other forums.

anythngbutgm

Usually it is recommended to change the water pump while you have the timing belt off. It could save the cost of removing the belt again to replace the pump if it fails. Pumps I have seen are usually good for about 125k before they start acting up.

socala4

Even here, there's still room for error. It's a safe bet that most participants will just skim through the examples or not bother to read them at all.

Of course, there's room for error. No survey is perfect, there isn't a single survey on earth that will achieve a perfect result. Anyone who expects a survey to yield perfect data is kidding himself.

(I could go on at length at the faults that I see in the CR survey. And guess what? If they addressed every single fault that I pointed out by creating a new survey, I could find fault in that one, too.)

But as is the case of every other aspect of life, things need not be perfect in order for them to be useful. You need to take the information that you get, and try to drill down in order to sort out what is useful and what isn't.

The question raised here isn't whether the CR survey is perfect -- of course, it isn't, and no one here claimed that it was. I've been addressing the constant accusation by the GM fans that CR is biased.

And it's pretty obvious that nobody here has proven bias. Everyone surveyed gets the same questions, the questions aren't leading, and the sample pool is large enough (1,000,000+ respondents) to minimize sampling error. As far as surveys go, I'd say it's pretty good, and there's no reason to believe that it would be more error-prone in respect to surveying Chevy owners than it would be in surveying Toyota owners.

imidazol97

>Maybe someone actually posted the survey instead of giving us a partial general overview.

Noone posted the actual survey questions. Obviously they are not available on the internet. The one poster challenging everyone didn't link to it; she just posted that it was out there!!! and said YOU go look it up for yourself.

imidazol97

Let's just hypothesize a bit here...
If the cars are totally so much more reliable than "American" brands, the waterpumps should last a long, long time. There should be no need to replace them when you replace the rubber band at 60K miles or whatever the replacement should be which is a moot point. One might go through two or three belts before the waterpump should be replaced. Perhaps that's part of the "shop theory" imports were able to establish early on and get people used to the increased bills at the required maintenance which actually cuts off some of the failures which would have occurred. Therefore improving the perceived reliability factor to the public but at an increased cost of 'regular maintenance.'

As for overhead cams driven by a chain which someone else mentioned in posting, I saw a motor at the local excellent shop training area of our local technology center (used to be called vocational school). The chains looked like bicycle chains. Are those reliable to the same time that the usual timing chain on a regular engine is? This is not a catch22 question. I'm just curious about the reliability vis-a-vis a belt for the OHC...

qbrozen

Unfortunately (or maybe fortunate for the CR supporters), everyone making statements against CR seems to be getting grouped into this "anti-import" crowd. The fact is, I am PRO-import and I do have a problem with the reliability of many "american" vehicles. BUT, that doesn't change my opinion about CR. I am not saying they are or are not biased towards or against imports or whatever. I just wanted to clear that up (although i never stated otherwise, so it should be obvious).

So to those who just throw their hands up in the air and claim "you just think that because the support the imports and trash the americans," you couldn't be more wrong. It is possible that someone can have an objective opinion, although you'd prefer not to face it.

snakeweasel

everyone making statements against CR seems to be getting grouped into this "anti-import" crowd.

No not everyone, I own imports but don't trust CR partially for reasons I sated before.

It is possible that someone can have an objective opinion, although you'd prefer not to face it.

It could also be that someone can have a very biased opinion, although you'd prefer not to face it.

andre1969

As for overhead cams driven by a chain which someone else mentioned in posting, I saw a motor at the local excellent shop training area of our local technology center (used to be called vocational school). The chains looked like bicycle chains. Are those reliable to the same time that the usual timing chain on a regular engine is? This is not a catch22 question. I'm just curious about the reliability vis-a-vis a belt for the OHC...

My Intrepid has a DOHC 2.7, which is chain-driven. At the time I bought it though, I didn't realize that. Anyway, about 5 years ago, I shot off an email to Chrysler asking them whether it had a chain, and if it needed to be serviced. The owner's manual lumps the 3.2/3.5 and 2.7 together with the same intervals, and it did mention changing the timing belt at 105,000 miles.

Anyway, here's the response I got back from them...

Thank you for your e-mail regarding your 2000 Dodge Intrepid.

The 2.7L V6 engine has a timing chain. DaimlerChrysler recommends that you have the chain inspected at approximately 105,000 miles to determine if it needs to
be changed or adjusted.

I hope you find this information helpful.

Thank you again for writing.

I talked to my mechanic about it, and he said that as long as I keep up on oil changes and don't let it run low, the chain should last indefinitely. I have no idea how you'd actually inspect the chain. Seems to me that you'd have to tear way down into the engine to see it anyway, so while you're that far in you might as well just replace it.

The mechanic also said that what usually causes these long chains to fail are the plastic guides that wear and cause the chain to start slacking.

I would almost think that in something with a longer reach and more complexity like a DOHC engine, you'd almost be better off with belts than chains. In the past, one reason that OHC engines used belts is because the chains of the time would tend to stretch out too easily. A chain was fine back when there was only like 8 inches between the crankshaft and camshaft, but once they moved the cam to the top of the head, a belt worked better. As long as you changed it regularly.

Also, once upon a time some cars used something called a double roller timing chain. Those were extra thick and almost NEVER failed. My '89 Gran Fury copcar had one, and I believe my '57 DeSoto does as well.

As for waterpumps failing, I've had the following instances...

1980 Malibu: around 90,000 miles
1979 Newport: around 248,000 miles (dunno if it had ever been replaced before I bought it though)
1989 Gran Fury: around 118,000 miles

My 1986 Monte Carlo also had a new water pump put in, but I don't remember when my stepdad did it. All I can say is that it was before 179,000 miles, which was when they gave me the car.

I don't know if the new ones necessarily fail more or not than in days gone by. I think it's just more a preventive maintenance sort of thing. I have no idea what a modern water pump costs...back in the day if you could get it on yourself they were only about $25-50. And if you had to pay someone, it was probably only a few hours of labor.

But nowadays, most engines are designed complex enough that by the time you tear into there to get to the belt, you might as well do the water pump as well, just in case.

One contrary example I can think of though, is the old Mopar 2.2/2.5 from the 80's. Those were actually designed with maintenance in mind, so the timing belt was very easy to get to. I'd imagine the water pump was as well. It called for a timing belt interval of 60,000 miles, but on that engine I don't think it was common to change the water pump at the same time. Maybe every other belt change? Provided the car lasted that long? The '88 LeBaron turbo I had didn't.

socala4

This is obviously a different issue, then.

The mechanics are just pitching for more business. ("Since I'm taking off the belt anyway, I may as well change your part. No charge for the labor.") There isn't a problem with the water pump.

Lil Engineer mixed apples and oranges. The real issue here isn't premature water pump failure, but that the cost of changing these parts isn't cheap, while mechanics are doing unscheduled preventative (unnecessary?) maintenance under the guise of reducing future labor costs. That is a function of all of the stuff packed under the hood of cars with small engine bays, and mechanics trying to turn a buck, not one of reliability.

qbrozen

It could also be that someone can have a very biased opinion, although you'd prefer not to face it.

There is no "could be" about it. I'd absolutely prefer NOT to deal with someone's biased opinion.

1racefan

When it comes to these surveys (CR, JD, etc...), is there a section that asks the owner how their car has been maintained (I have never seen these surveys, nor do I have any opinion one way or the other about them)?

What I am getting at, is if an owner reports an engine failure at 15K miles, does the survey account for the fact that they may have never even checked their oil?

anythngbutgm

Belts also don't have the clatter of a chain either. And like Andre mentioned over such a long span, a belt will be more compliant to the stretching. BTW, a timing belt is good for 105k on my Hondas, has been since my 98' Accord. Before that, the recommended interval was either 60k or 90k depending on the model. It has been a LONG time since the recommended interval was only 60k miles...

And the belt is far from a "rubber band" unless you refer to a tire the same way?

socala4

The CR survey asks whether the car was taken in for service (that could be any type of service, other than accident repair), and type of places where it was taken for service (dealer / independent / chain / "other"), and it does ask about mileage on the car, but it does not ask about adherence to the routine maintenance schedule.

Of course, if you put a certain amount of mileage on the car and answered "no" to the service question, then it might be a hint that the owner didn't bother with minimal maintenance. But I doubt that it affects the red-and-black circle ratings, because those results are derived from a different question on the survey.

dieselone

I know on the old Escorts is was routine (not in the maintenance schedule though)to change the water pump with the timing belt. The interval was 60k for the belt. Yes, I believe the mechanics were using this line for more business and it made some sense as well. The pump was cheap and they were already in there. Why not change the pump.

socala4

With an original part, I wouldn't change it so early. I can't imagine that a generic part fitted by a mechanic would typically be as reliable as the original installed at the factory.

dieselone

As for overhead cams driven by a chain which someone else mentioned in posting, I saw a motor at the local excellent shop training area of our local technology center (used to be called vocational school). The chains looked like bicycle chains. Are those reliable to the same time that the usual timing chain on a regular engine is? This is not a catch22 question. I'm just curious about the reliability vis-a-vis a belt for the OHC...

Man, your always reaching to find faults with OHC engines. I've never seen any evidence that a timing chain on an OHC is any less reliable than a non OHC engine. Since the chain is much longer I guess there is more a of a chance of issues.

My dad put 250k on his '92 CrownVic (over 8 years) which had Ford 4.6 OHC v8 with chain driven cams. Engine and trans wise, all it required over that period was routine maintenance, a fuel pump and starter. These were primarily city miles. Granted it was very tired when he got rid of it, but it still ran fine, was burning quite a bit of oil.

As for chain/belt issue, I remember reading that Lexus preferred timing belts early on due to increased quietness. Maybe reliability of the chains was an issue to, don't know.

dieselone

When I had my '86 escort, I was in high school, so cash was an issue. A girl freind's dad helped me change the timing belt @ 60k. I didn't change the pump. Well @ 90k miles the pump siezed, taking the belt with it and leaving me stranded on a 10 degree day on expressway. In that case, maybe if I would have replaced the pump, I would have made it to my destination that day.

With modern belts going 105k miles, I wouldn't think it's a bad idea to change the pump if all you have to pay for is basically the pump itself and it's cheap (like the escorts were)

socala4

Man, your always reaching to find faults with OHC engines.

He's reaching to find fault with anything even vaguely associated with Honda or Toyota (although I don't think he's fond of Fords, either). It's more of a grudge match against the transplants than it is an objective consideration of the pros and cons of timing belts or OHC motors.

socala4

Fair point. As far as personal experience goes, I've had a water pums fail, but it didn't take the timing belt with it. Yours must have seized up pretty hard for that to have happened...

andre1969

I had a water pump fail, they'd simply start leaking. They'd never actually seize anything up, though. But maybe on older cars it was just different. I have heard that if you'd let them go too long, the fan could actually come loose and go into the radiator. But that was back in the days of mechanical, belt-driven fans versus the electric ones of today.

andres3

The Lacrosse came out in 2004 with 240hp and 19/27 mileage. I rest my case. I don't consider 2 or 3pmg to be a deal breaker but maybe you do.

I do consider 2 or 3 MPG a deal breaker if you don't offer me any more power in exchange. Why would I want 19/27 when I can get 21/30? See, let's give the American cars you listed the benefit of the doubt. Okay, so the mileage is close... but not similar. Okay, so maybe the reliability gap is "close" but not similar. Fit and finish might be close, but not similar. When you add this all together, and the Honda keeps coming out on top in each and every category (even if you give the Lacrosse the benefit of the doubt) why would you not side with the import, it's clearly better in each and every way. I want the best car for my money, not the mediocre or even 2nd or 3rd best car.

So why would you chose the 2003 grand prix or Impala or Lacrosse over a V6 240HP Accord from 03?
Less cost? This gets offset by less resale value, savings are lost. Also... if it has slightly worse reliability, it has slightly more repair bills to be paid.

For me, 2 or 3 MPG is definitely a deal breaker unless you are giving me something else that is value advantageous in exchange. Example: the 4cyl Accord vs. the V6 Accord. The 4 banger gets about 3 MPG more, but I traded that extra 3 MPG for 80 more horses! Now thats value!

By they way... I had and own the V6 Accord, not the gas sipping 4 banger. Therefore, when I was driving those rental american cars, they did not have a "bigger engine" MPG disadvantage.

andres3

I probably drove a 2002 or 2003 Cavalier.
I drove a 2004 Malibu.
I drove a 2001 Hyndai Sonata
I drove a 2003 or 4 Buick LaSabre
I drove the previous generation Ford Mustang V6 version (what a pathetic and gutless V6!)

All of those cars paled in comparison to my 2003 Honda Accord. Everytime I drove one of those rentals, I was confirming my suspicion that other vehicle makers have a long way to go to catch up to Honda Toyota build quality.

But as you see... although my list might not be CURRENT, it is what I would call RECENT.

And most of those rentals at the time I were driving them weren't that beat up yet (under 10K miles ALL of them!).

andres3

It was a recent model LeSabre, probably a 2004 if I had to guess (rentals are usually 1 or 2 years old tops from where I rent from).

Maybe if you drive like a grandpa the gas mileage could be good. But I drive with a heavy lead foot, and like to see what engines are made of! I do this with my V6 Accord too, so its not like I abuse rentals in order to get low gas mileage (well, okay, maybe I do floor them a bit more than my Honda).

But anyway, I drive my Honda with a lead foot all the time, and still get about 24 MPG in mixed driving. (afterall, Honda motors hide all the extra kick in the [non-permissible content removed] fun in the upper RPM range).

dieselone

Fair point. As far as personal experience goes, I've had a water pums fail, but it didn't take the timing belt with it. Yours must have seized up pretty hard for that to have happened...

I would agree that a pump seizure is not the normal way water pumps fail and in fact rarely make the car undriveable. Why is it the statement "I've never seen that happen before" seem
to happen me far to often. LOL.

andres3

I would have to admit that it appears not all American cars are complete crap. Some do seem to have at least "average" reliability.

Cadillac seems to be an EXCEPTION to other American makes.
Also, different brands have some reliable and some not so reliable models within their brand as well.

Unfortunately, in 1994 I could only afford something around 12K. Since I was leaning towards a new car, this forced me to consider a cheap american car.... or go with a 2 or 3 year old Civic! If I had gone with the Civic, I'd be a much richer and happier man today.

Pretty much all of Toyota's line is exceptional when it comes to dependability, but their are exceptions.

The Toyota Echo wasn't a REAL toyota, neither was the Trecel! But the Corolla and the Camry have been reliable since ancient history, year after year, every year.
So.. yes, Toyota even has models that aren't very Toyota-like. They tended to be their cheap economy models, which is now the "Scion" brand. But Scion's seem to be doing well.

I would say anyone swearing off a car because it has a rattle is insane. A car is designed to get you from A to B. All I ask of a car is to get me from A to B, for 200K miles with very little cost of repair, and very little need to go to the dealer for warranty visits/fixes. I just want a car that will last, and that will last economically.

Serious problems are (all I have to do is remember that 95 Neon's repair history, where it seemed every problem it had was serious - $200 and up to fix) Funny, my fiance's 1992 Civic seemed to have a few problems creep up around 200K miles, but it was always cheap fixes!

Serious problems- Auto Tranny dying at 60 to 65K miles.
AC dying at 36 months and one day (okay, maybe it was a month after warranty expired, but it felt like it was timed by Dodge to break down just after warranty).
Windshield cracking all the way down the middle for no reason while parked one day.
Gas tank leak. (bad O-ring)
Battery Corrosion which cause terminal/ring corrosion, which later caused starter cables/wires corrosion (okay, maybe this was poor Dodge Dealer servicing).
Serpentine belt snapping, losing AC, power steering.
Timing belt burning up by AC compressor failure.
Head Gaskets failing/leaking coolant (which was causing car to overheat when the coolant got low and speeds were low).
O2 Sensor issues

When you have to replace just about every part in the car before you hit 65K miles, you start wondering.

grbeck

snakeweasel: It could also be that someone can have a very biased opinion, although you'd prefer not to face it.

A sample of one import owner who overlooks problems with a Toyota hardly constitutes proof that ALL import owners do the same when reporting problems with their vehicles.

Socala is right; to extrapolate this behavior to all import owners in general (and Honda and Toyota owners in particular) is quite a stretch. The fact that problems DO show up with Hondas and Toyotas on the Consumer Reports survey (in particular, Acura TL and Honda Odyssey transmission problems) also shoots down this theory.

I can list examples of domestic owners who have done the same thing, including a classmate who drove a 1980s Dodge Daytona.

In the early 1990s, when I asked him whether it was a reliable car, he replied, "It has been great!"

When I asked him what he had replaced on it...well, let's just say that by the time he was done listing all of the parts and components he had to replace over the course of 110,000 miles, he practically had a brand-new Daytona!

snakeweasel

A sample of one import owner who overlooks problems with a Toyota hardly constitutes proof that ALL import owners do the same when reporting problems with their vehicles.

I am not saying that all do, just saying that some do and it could very well be enough to skew the results of a survey.

he practically had a brand-new Daytona!

LOL, sounds like my sisters Toyota, at the rate she's going the windows will be the only original thing left on the car at 100K.

socala4

A sample of one import owner who overlooks problems with a Toyota hardly constitutes proof that ALL import owners do the same when reporting problems with their vehicles.

Exactly. A sample of sufficient size should be large enough to eliminate "outliers" (data points that, for whatever reason, don't match the normal distribution). There is a margin of error, of course, but there's no reason to believe that the margin of error would be significantly worse for Honda than it would be for Chevy so as to create a huge disparity in the quality of the responses.

And in any case, these data points show up not just in CR surveys, but in other surveys. The consistency is significant, and crosses national and demographic boundaries. The occasional outlier isn't going to change this.