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Comments
In post #1312, a link was provided that gave you this information. It is also provided in the CR auto surveys.
You are entitled to your opinions, but opinions based upon falsehoods are not to be taken seriously. It's obvious that you're just peeved that your favored badges generally come out as losers in the survey, year after year.
I've now posted links to the survey. Show me specifically in that survey how those questions favor imports over domestics.
Numerous professional reviewers from various sources (Car & Driver, Automobile, USA Today, and Consumer Reports) apparently disagree. All of these reviewers - which use different criteria when rating a vehicle - place the Accord ahead of its GM rivals, including the LaCrosse.
The Accord wins these comparisons for its overall combination of attributes - economy, handling, refinement and, yes, build quality.
Those reviews may only constitute their OPINIONS, but given that they are professional reviewers, they must carry some weight, especially since divergent sources are reaching the same ultimate conclusion.
1487: Compare it to a Lacrosse, G6, Impala, Aura (when it comes out) or even Cobalt and I'm sure you will see (OK, probably not) that the difference is minimal, if there is a difference at all. Trust me, I look at these things when I walked past parked cars.
So do I...and I've compared the Cobalt to the new Civic, for example. There is still a difference.
The Cobalt's front and rear bumpers mate less smoothly to the surrounding sheetmetal than they do on the new Civic. The gap between the front fenders and the windshield pillars on the Cobalt is wider, and less uniform, than it is on the Civics. And the doors are less likely to be hung straight. Same with the G6 and the Impala versus the Accord.
Haven't seen production version of the new Aura yet, so I can't judge that one.
Yeah but people who buy German Cars buy them for the "prestige factor" they don't buy them for reliability.
"If a person had a bad Chevy in '89 he would be on Edmunds to this day trying to discourage people from buying any GM products because he was burned 17 years back."
I agree with you people do harp on bad experiences on a particluar brand that happened years ago. My mom had a 1960's Mustangs and she said to me a few years I will never buy a Ford because of the bad experince that I had with a 1960's something(don't remember the year of the Mustang.) I said Mom that was forty years ago. She has never had a Japanese brandaed car though. She has a been a GM owner for 20 years. She did have a bad experience with a GM car but she gave GM a second chance actually. I guess she just doesn't like Ford's. I don't know.
I agree with you somewhat 2 or 3 mpg is really not a dealbraker for me for me unless I was buying an SUV. I t really doesn't make a difference to me(the 2or 3 mpg) if I am buying a compact or mid-size car. Besides, it matters how fast you drive it as well that affects MPG. Those people that do 80's MPH on the interestate in a mid-size car will get worse mileadge than a person doing 65 mph on the interestare.
"I don't have a problem with the Accord other than the fact that it's pretty dull looking."
I'm sure Honda will put some more style into the next Accord. I agree even as a Honda fan myself the current Accord is plain jane looking.
"Its a fast car with a nice interior. I don't however find it to be heads and shoulders above it's competition. I wouldn't get one because it's ubiquitous, it's styling is lacking, it offers little torque compared to most of it's competitors, it doesn't offer 18" wheels, it's backseats is one of the tightest in it's class, no name brand uplevel stereo, no remote start and I hate the way Honda doesnt let you pick and choose the options you want. Other than that it is a perfect car."
The Accord has a tight backseat I don't agree with you there. I don't think a Grand Prix has alot more room in the backseat than the Accord does. Maybe the Impala has more room in the backseat than the Accord. I know the Altima has very good backseat room. Yeah but many mid-size cars have remote start though ? I think the Camry might have it on the 07 models but Im not sure. About picking options most people like Honda's trim levels rather than doing pick and choose options options type thing. I know Honda's one package for all isn't for some buyers but most Honda buyers like their one package fits all approach.
"I'm glad that imports are built in the US now so some people down south can have jobs, but that doesnt mean I want to run to my local Toyota dealership. To some degree I don't care where they are made its the styling, overall blandness and the people that swear by them that really irks me. Besides, I do like some imports such as the old 330i, Audis, SL500 and the new '07 G35. "
I wish people would stop Toyota is all imports are bland complaint. That gets on my nerves sometimes. If you want styling(ala a little pizzaz on your car) usually people who don;t like Toyota and buy import go and buy a Mazda or a Nissan. So the Impala is bland so should I go and use "well the Impala is bland" so every Ford and GM is bland. Thats a little ridiculous don;t you think?
I'm not being biased with my posts where since I did defend Ford in my last post and I do buy import branded but some Domestic Big 3 cars do not exactly look perfectly styled eiither compared to some Japanese branded cars either. The Germans used to be cutting edge in styling in the late 90's/early 00's but even they have taken a step back of late in that particular department.
Uh dude I had a Mazda and it didn't cost me 40 dollars to get my oil changed. I think though to be fair though if your brother has a Mazda 6 there is an extra step like a canisiter that has to be removed I think in terms of getting new oil put into the car. I remember reading about the extra step in getting the oil changed on the Mazda 6 on the sedans board a while back. I also have an Acura now and it cost me a little than 19 dollars to get my oil changed. I have been getting my oil changed at the same place for my Acura for a few years now.
Speaking for myself and others who I know who own German cars, at least some of us are motivated by driving experience, moreso than by prestige. Cachet does play a role, but really the driving experience still retains that special something that a Lexus, Infiniti or Acura don't seem to provide. The premium Japanese badges are generally well built and are often more reliable, but they also convey a certain feeling of sterility for those of us who prefer the other brands. (I think of one friend who has driven a succession of 3-series BMW's -- despite some reliability problems, he considers his commute as a form of "therapy", he just loves driving the thing, traffic jams and all.)
The German makers can offset the reliability deficiency to some degree by offering free maintenance, roadside assistance, and high levels of fit and finish. And FWIW, my experience is that the underlying engineering is generally solid, so if you make a point to carefully inspect a German car before buying it, you can improve the odds of getting a car that runs well.
GM, Ford, and Chrysler clearly can't afford to rely on cachet, they need to focus on reliability, styling and uniqueness to regain their positions. Rather than imitate the Germans or Japanese in terms of style, they should borrow the best from each and create cars that provide that certain something that consumers both want and can't get from the other automakers. Each needs to create a school of uniquely American style that is strongly appealing and not easily imitated by its rivals.
As far as Japanese Cars being lesser quality than Domestic Big 3 cars I don't know about that. My Acura has been good for me. 43k-44K in 4.5 years. Having nothing to complain about. I had a transmission recall which they installed the oil jet kit and a fuse that blew out which was partly my fault but that work was done under warranty to repair the fuse. BTW, my Acura was built in Ohio. I don't know whats so Japanese about it besides the "A" emblem and the tranny. No sqeauks, no rattles. The interior is still in the same shape that I bought it off the showroom floor. Sure the exterior has some scratches but what can you do: Dang Parking lots! In conclusion my Acura experience has been good but I'm not saying everybody has the same experience. Sure every manufacturer has its lemons. No doubt. Its also has to do with how well that individual owner takes care of their car. I saw a Ford Contour the other day the paint looked showroom new.
"Plus the fact, that in j.d. power and associates comparison, the 2005 Impala is more reliable than either the Accord, or the Camry."
I think even CR agrees that the 2005 Impala is as reliable as Accord V6.
"So, why in the world would I buy imported, when I can buy a less expensive domestic product, that is superior in quality, and at the same time, I'm buying myself an insurance policy by supporting such a large element in the U.S.'s economy."
Yes, The domestic will probably be less expensive transaction price wise yes because they do traditionally spend alot more alot in incentive money than the Japanese makes do. Than again I can tell by your member name you like GM so buy what you like and thats what matters in the end is you buy what you like and you are happy with your purchase. I would like to think if my Japanese Car branded car is made by American workers I am helping the economy too.
Um, well didn't Car & Driver like the Infinti G35 better than the 99-05 3 Series? I;m not sure how reviewers like the 06 3 Series vs the G35. See the big thing thats going against the G35 that I see is its interior in terms of plastics. I don't really like the exterior of the G35 but I;m just saying in terms of fun to drive experience the magazines it matches up to the last generation 3 Series. I should mention as well didn't the M45 finish ahead of the current 5 Series in C&D? I'm not trying to slam BMW because Acura and Lexus don't have the sporty ride to win magazine comparo's that an Infinti or a BMW would. Acura goes after people who want the best ride for sport and luxury while and I do have an Acura myself. Lexus goes after people who want a smooth red carpet ride.
"(I think of one friend who has driven a succession of 3-series BMW's -- despite some reliability problems, he considers his commute as a form of "therapy", he just loves driving the thing, traffic jams and all.)"
See the problem I have with a car like the 3 Series is lack of room in the interior. It feels cramped to me. Also the new 3 Series it doesn't look as sleek and elegant as the 99-05 3 Series. I like the way the last 3 Series looked. See in a car like the Acura TL I can fit comfortably. I understand if a German Car gets your blood boiling and brings excitement to your eyes. Hey we all like different things.
"The German makers can offset the reliability deficiency to some degree by offering free maintenance, roadside assistance, and high levels of fit and finish."
I understand BMW has offered free maintenance to make it easier for a person to own a BMW without having to worrying about styrocket rocket prices in order to maintain their BMW. I wonder the longevity of the free maintenance for the BMW is like in terms of how many miles its free. As for and finish I would like to think Acura and Lexus offer good fit and finish as well even though I don;t like Lexus because their exterior styling is not my cup of tea. I do understand Mercedes(I have sat in them) is good with fit and finish as is VW even though they are not a premium German Luxury brand. I like the BMW X5's high level fit and finish interior too: its very impressive.
I think I would like a Mercedes E-Class if the reliability was good and I had all my money to burn on a car. Its not the Mercedes emblem that I like about the car. I think the car is pretty looking thats why I like it.
I don't know I could never buy a BMW for some reason. I respect BMW but I just couldn't see myself buying one.
"Rather than imitate the Germans or Japanese in terms of style, they should borrow the best from each and create cars that provide that certain something that consumers both want and can't get from the other automakers. Each needs to create a school of uniquely American style that is strongly appealing and not easily imitated by its rivals."
I think the domestics are on their way to create a school of uniquely styles cars that is not offered by the Japaneseor Europeans. The 2003+ caddy line, Chrysler 300 and Dodge Magnum, Ford Fusion, and Pontiac Solstice are proof that the domestics can create a style of their own to distinquish themselves from the Japanese and European cars that are out there. I wish Chrysler could put a cool mid-size car that could compete with Honda, Toyota, and Nissan and have the sleek style like the Mazda 6 has now. I am a Honda and a Mazda guy but I always have respected Chrysler because of the distinctiveness of the style of their products even in the late 90's/early 00's when I wouldn't really consider a domestic buying wise.
Obviously its important that you be happy with the purchase of your vehicle, as thats a big purchase, and you will have to live with that, presumably, for at least a couple years. I won't even try to deny that I'm a GM fan, I like their products, especially Corvettes, which offer performance that meets and betters cars costing two, to three times as much. By buying a Japanese car built in America, you are supporting the U.S. economy, although its not even close to the same degree that you help it by buying an American car. The domestic brands are a huge part of the American economy, and, in towns where they have plants, almost everyone in the town works at the plant, has a relative working there, or is in some other way connected. Plus, they treat their workers better because they have unions, whereas, The Japanese companies don't. Plus in the end the money from a japanese purchase goes mostly back to the Japanese govt, while an American purchase goes back to the American govt. I think its worth your time to read this article, and you will get a very good idea of what GM means to America. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/03/30/60minutes/main1458483.shtml
But the main point I want to make here, is that people need to get over their grudges from 10,20,30, even 40 years ago, and take a look at comparable American car models when car-shopping, who knows, you may be pleasantly surprised, and how is going to hurt you to look?
The company is Japanese and the money goes to Japan, eventually.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Largely a false statement. The vast majority of the revenue is paid out in the form of expenses. Most of those expenses are comprised of parts and labor. Depending upon the period and the company, you can expect about 90% of the revenue to paying expenses.
In the case of an Acura TL, last I checked, 70% of the parts content is domestic. The assembly labor is 100% domestic. The parts makers hire American employees, as does Honda-Acura, who pay local, state and US federal taxes and feed local businesses with their money.
In turn, those profits help the value of the stock, which helps shareholders. Many of thoese shareholders will include American investors, including investment funds that are managing stock and mutual funds for everyday American investors.
So very little of the money ever ends up in the Japanese economy. Most of it comes here, subsidizing companies such as GM that don't pay income taxes because they generate losses that must effectively be subsidized by the rest of us. At this point, Honda is doing more for the US treasury than is General Motors.
If it's an RX-8, yeah, I can see a $40 oil change. I think it's a good idea to use synthetic with that (finicky) engine.
My Nissan takes a $10 oil filter and ~6 quarts, and I still get it changed at the dealer since they only charge $22. I used to change my own oil, but for the $6 labor charge, it's worth not having to mess with the used oil and Gojo. :P
If I ever start using synthetic, though, I'll go back to doing my own. Auto shops charge insane prices for synthetic oil changes.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I'd disagree. Buying the American nameplate in cases where the product is obviously inferior hurts the American economy in the long run. This propagates the success of inferior products and poor managment decisions, subsidizing overpaid workers and/or low quality products. This is not good for the economy! Capitalism should be allowed to run its course - the weak die off and the strong survive. By allowing weak products (and companies) to die more quickly, we strengthen our economic competitiveness in the world.
The difference is short vs. long term. In the short term, we help American companies by buying their products, but we hurt the country. By thinking long term, we promote the U.S. as a continued strong and competitive force in the world for generations to come. That, to me, is patriotism. And that is why I laugh and shake my head when I see ads promoting "the heartbeat of America".
As for the whiners that say the money from Toyota (Honda, Nissan, ect...) goes overseas, you are the same people that complained that the jobs were overseas a few years ago before the vehicles were made here. It is nothing more than a bunch of foreign vehicle haters that need a reason to [non-permissible content removed]. Period. You have no problem paying to have your Ford parts made and vehicles assembled in Mexico because it is a American company. Name an American company that has not teamed up with a foreign company. Ford and Mazda? Chrysler and Mitsubishi? Even Harleys get parts abroad? Get what fits your needs and stop bad mouthing what fits your neighbors needs unless you have a valid complaint.
See I can only buy what I like. It really doesn't matter the emblem on the car to me. I used too but I am older now and I understand now that Domestic Big 3 cars are not that much inferior to Japanese Branded cars reliability wise.
"Plus, they treat their workers better because they have unions, whereas, The Japanese companies don't.
I;m sure Honda, Toyota, and Nissan treat their workers fine. I don;t think Honda and Nissan plant workers want the union in their plants. I'm not saying the union is bad or anything like that though. Nissan has had the vote for a union in the Symra plant in Tennesee voted down 3 times I think.
"Plus in the end the money from a japanese purchase goes mostly back to the Japanese govt, while an American purchase goes back to the American govt."
I'm sure some of the money does go back to Japan I;m not saying it doesn't. Some of that money does go back to their workers who built the car, the suppliers, Uncle Sam(in NJ there is a 6% sales tax where I live) and also the salespeople take home the profit that is made off of that car sale. These people that work at these American plants that build the car and the sales people that sell me my car Japanese branded cars need to eat, feed a family, and pay bills and I am helping them do that. In my opinion having Japanese Car Makes here is good because they employ workers at these import dealerships which creates more jobs for the American people. Don;t forget Honda too has stock in the US that you can invest in.
"I think its worth your time to read this article, and you will get a very good idea of what GM means to America."
Gm just doesn't make anything I like right now besides the caddy convertible. I have no beefs with GM themselves. Its just the product that I have a problem with.
I did a take a look at the article but I;m supposed to drive a car that I don;t even like because it has a Domestic Big 3 emblem on it? Thats sort of wacky in my opinion.
I don;t understand people why do Domestic Big 3 fans go crazy over buying a Domestic Big 3 car or why do Japanese Car fans go so crazy over a great reliability rating in CR of a Toyota or a Honda. What can't people just people buy what they like and be happy with it regradless of the emblem of the car? I do take a look at CR(I confess)and they reccomend more and more Domestic Big 3 cars every year it seems.
The AVEO however - is one ugly little animal, IMO....
I think the Aveo is getting refreshed to look more like its big brother: the Cobalt. My problem with the current Aveo is it lacks Chevy styling DNA. Why couldn;t GM just have done this in the first place and make the Aveo look more like a Chevy on the outside instead of bringing it to the market with un-Chevy like DNA styling? People buy a Chevy because it looks like Chevy and not another brands car.
A refresh would be good.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
And by the way buddy, I GUARUNTEE you that you're not getting 30mpg out of a v6 unless you drive it like a granny, which means shifting at 1800 rpm. Shift at 5000, where the power is at, and youre getting in the 20's, low 20's, maybe.
I don't believe any competition has surpassed the mighty Honda Accord, even 3, almost 4 years later. I do believe in certain categories the Accord isn't a leader, but its very close. The competition has become competitive, but is not winning in any sort of landslide. The Accord is still a favorite mid-size car because it excels in each and every category of measure or opinion, even though it may not be 1st in any category, it is probably 2nd or 3rd.
Only the 2007 Camry seems to have made a leap over the 2003 Accord. All the others still fall short in my book, but at least they are close, where as in 2003/4/5 it was a landslide victory for Honda.
By the way, I get 30 MPG out of my V6 Accord when I coast up interstate 5 in California for 300 miles. I'll drive around 80 MPH on average, and get 30 MPG. I'd probably get around 35 MPG if I drove 65 to 70 MPH.
In daily mixed driving through San Diego miserable bumper to bumper traffic, I get about 24/25 MPG driving with a lead foot to pass all the slow pokes.
It could hurt some consumers to look, because they might actually like the styling, make a rash and impulse decision to buy a big 3 car, and then end up regretting it when the repair bills come piling in.
However, I did look at the Dodge Caliber (miserable reviews thus far eliminated it, plus, it's a Dodge). I personally looked at a Chevy HHR (interesting design caught my eye, kinda PT Cruiser like) But when I saw the interior, I was SHOCKED at the cheapness of it. Cheap looking and feeling plastics everywhere. Same with a friends new Dodge Charger. Didn't care for the cheap grey plastics inside.
Oh, C'mon, they're not THAT bad. Nobody makes cars that bad anymore! They may need some repairs faster than a Honda will, but it'll be a few years down the road before they do.
"However, I did look at the Dodge Caliber (miserable reviews thus far eliminated it, plus, it's a Dodge). I personally looked at a Chevy HHR (interesting design caught my eye, kinda PT Cruiser like) But when I saw the interior, I was SHOCKED at the cheapness of it. Cheap looking and feeling plastics everywhere. Same with a friends new Dodge Charger. Didn't care for the cheap grey plastics inside."
But, you're looking at Dodge & Chevy. The low end of each company. Besides, Dodge isn't American anymore anyway. There's a lot of MB in that Caliber, like it or not.
If you want a fancy, quality interior, you have to go upmarket. Things get better on the whole up there.
The TL is 65% American :P I owned one.
BTW- GM pays more local, state, income taxes, than Honda and Toyota combined. :confuse:
Your claim of Honda and Toyota paying more is largely false because these trans-plants get free taxes for "X" number of years and all they have to do is threaten the local community's to move the plants and the locals will give em' extensions on tax breaks, thus they will still be paying nothing.
Rocky
Rocky
:mad:
Rocky
I think we all want what is good for this country. I would buy Detroit products if the product was there for me to buy. I just see and saw in the 90's too many Detroit products that don;t click with me. I was raised to "buy Detroit products" by my parents but it didn;t stick with me in my teenage years or now. I was big into Honda back in the mid to late 90's so anything with an Detroit emblem I just didn;t like it. I could have bought a 1998 Chrysler Sebring if not for my bias back then instead of a 1998 Mazda 626 back in the day.
Rocky: a little general question: Do you consider Chrysler a domestic or would you not buy a Chrsyler because of their merger with Mercedes?
I'd consider a Chrysler, Dodge, Jeep, a domestic vehicle because they are made here and do have a pretty good amount of american content, and yes the Germans own a good portion of the company. OTOH-They aren't as american as GM and Ford.
Rocky
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
On the domestic note, this ad just flashed by on TV for some Dodge dealer that is selling all the Rams he has in stock for $10K off MSRP, no exceptions. I wonder what that makes the actual price of the least expensive Ram available...
edit...whoa! That would be a regular cab 4x2 short box with 6-speed stick, the 3.7L 6-cyl, CD and A/C, and 17" rims for $12,050!!! Now THAT'S a stars-and-stripes bargain! :-P
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
She visited a couple days after buying it, and one of her front lights was already burned out (or never functioning).
I didn't tell her about my past experiences with Dodge yet, but that was like an evil omen (the non-functioning light on a brand new car).
My Dodge gave me a similar evil omen warning, and I didn't take notice!!!! I should have heeded the warnings!!!! It didn't start the morning after the day I took delivery, had to be towed out of the garage!!! Why didn't I tell them to keep it once they took it back!!!!
I will warn (I plan to) that friend of my Fiance's before her warranty expires, time will tell.
If all these Big 3 supporters on these forums are so confident in the "NEW" American vehicles from the last year or two, then it'll take 3 or 4 more years for most buyers to wait and see if the predictions are true. If those CR survey come back positive, it will be a move in the right direction for the Big 3.
Will the Fusion be better than the Escort, only time will tell.
Ya, beacause the U.S. economy will be really strong if GM were to die off, along with all the jobs it provides.
Rocky, I understand where you're coming from, but do you really think that protectionism is going to keep us from having to compete forever? I don't like the added challenges, but I feel we need to meet them head on rather than hiding and complaining. Even the US can't avoid the inevitable forces of globalization. And our entire society is based upon competition. You and I both intend to be patriotic, the difference is how we see the problem and the best solution.
So using your logic, you would wish for the return of American Motors and Rambler? We're so much worse off because those makes are not still in business.
Rocky
We are worst off because those were good paying jobs in there day.
Rocky
Chrysler’s earnings first-quarter fell by more than half, to $144 million in the first quarter from $306 million a year earlier as the Auburn Hills automaker ramped up discounts to sustain demand in a fiercely competitive environment.
DaimlerChrysler shares were down five percent in European trading as investors were concerned about the U.S. carmaker and disappointed at the pace of the Mercedes turnaround.
"Chrysler was as weak as feared," said Patrice Solaro, auto analyst at Kepler Equities.
The Mercedes Car Group narrowed its losses to $823 million from $1.2 billion a year earlier. Although the results for both years included heavy restructuring charges for the Smart minicar brand, analysts had anticipated faster improvement in the quarter just ended because of Mercedes’ recent vehicle launches and rising sales.
"Mercedes, their most important unit, disappointed significantly," said Adam Jonas, London-based analyst for Morgan Stanley.
Overall, DaimlerChrysler reported a 4 percent rise in profit to $363 million for the January-March quarter, on sales of $45 billion.
tough competition in the U.S. market, where its larger rivals are both losing money. “For the Chrysler Group, we anticipate a continued difficult product environment,” Uebber said in a teleconference with reporters and analysts.
But he said Chrysler would benefit later in the year from an aggressive product rollout entailing 10 vehicle launches this year.
"Despite an intensely competitive market, Chrysler Group was able to deliver our eleventh consecutive quarterly profit in the first quarter," Chrysler CEO Tom LaSorda said in a statement. "The company will continue its actions to improve efficiency, flexibility and customer satisfaction in the current year."
During the first quarter, Chrysler’s global sales rose 4 percent to 690,700 vehicles, and its U.S. sales increased by 3 percent, bolstered by the introduction of the Caliber compact. But Chrysler’s discounts totaled $4,039 per vehicle in March — more than the incentives offered by any other major vehicle manufacturer, according to auto research web site Edmunds.com.
http://www.detroitnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060427/UPDATE/604270437/- - 1148/AUTO01
Wonder how CR's rating the Dodge Caliber? Anyone have a report? I recall someone said they skipped looking at Caliber because of "poor reports."
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I do remember seeing a comparison somewhere where the Caliber did poorly, but that was because it was being compared to much smaller cars. If you're going to compare a Caliber with say, a Yaris and a Fit, and fuel economy and tidy size and parking ease are your main concerns, then naturally the Caliber's going to come up short. Just like if you threw a Yaris in a comparo with a Town Car, a DTS, and a 300, it would come up towards the back of the pack.
How hard is to make badges for Rambler, Packard, Studebaker and Hudson and stick it on current models?
That should give some shoppers more perceived choices:)
You might be able to take a Kia Amanti and use it to suggest those late 40's "bathtub/pregnant" Packards.
I'm almost tempted to look at the Caliber myself, when it finally comes time to replace my Intrepid. I dunno if I'd be able to deal with something that small on a regular basis, but if fuel prices stay this way, I might force myself!
Or maybe I could go for a 4-cyl Altima at the same time my buddy gets his Xterra, and see if we'd get a bulk discount! :shades: