GM, Ford, Toyota, Honda...Who will sell you your next car?

doggiebus

I have owned one Honda and two Fords now. Unfortunately, I just don't think American cars are as reliable as Japanese car makers today. I will not buy another American made car (even Japanese cars models that are built here in the U.S.) until we catch up to the reliability of Japanese car makers. So lexus will get my business in the next month.

ace35

I hate to say it, but i agree with you. As an owner of a lexus, and not a new one to be exact. The reliability of my car is exlempary. with almost 200k, ive done nothing but normal maintenence on the vehicle. My car feels just a reliable as a new car and i must say the interior has held up very very well. While i enjoy my car i know the time is coming for me to purchase a new vehicle, i want to believe that with improving quality of todays cars, that you can pretty much get a reliable vehicle, but i dont think thats quite the case. So i will deffinately do my research, but will probably purchase another lexus or yota (Japanese built).

w9cw

dieselone wrote: "When the fuel pump died on my Suburban (nearly $450 just for the damn pump), not like I was going to drop a 31 gallon fuel tank in my driveway."

This is one design aspect of many cars with electric fuel pumps that I simply don't understand, unless it's the "bean counters" at work. In two of my cars with electric fuel pumps, both European cars, the fuel pump is accessed from the trunk. There's an access plate on the top of the poly fuel tank, beneath the trunk floor, to replace the fuel pump. Fuel pump replacement takes no more than 15 minutes.

1487

The Accord has ranked at the top in several recent tests. I see you didnt mention the comparisons here on edmunds where the Accord 4 cylinder and 6 cylinder lost to competitors. The Accord V6 is a nice car, but I notice that it usually gets compared to competition that doesnt stand a chance. Not once have I seen the Accord V6 compared the Mazda6 and in recent years it hasnt been compared to the Altima for some reason. I also believe the G6 GTP should be compared to the Accord as it is every bit as capable as the Fusion. C&D did compare the GTP to the Accord and the Accord won based on subjective measures as usual. The GTP peformed better in every category except accleration, but it finished in last place to the Accord's 2nd place. What I typically find is that these magazines' rankings dont match up with the objecitve measures of their own tests so they rank their favorites based on factors that cant be measured at all. Imagine some of the people on here writing for C&D and you can begin to understand how the deck is always stacked against the Big 2.5, unless the vehicle in question is a 300 or Charger. When it comes to 100% objective reviews the only sources I can think of are Motorweek and NCTD.com.

"I don't "think it"...I know it because I've seen it. Interestingly, so have other testers. Read the Edmunds.com review of the Cobalt in the recent comparison test."

I havent seen very few reviews criticizing recent GM build quality. I have read numerous reviews of the Cobalt and I dont recall ANY (except edmunds of course) who thought the build quality was lacking. The gaps on modern GM and Honda vehicles are such that you would be able to tell the difference with the naked eye. It's all in your head.

BTW, the Caddy DTS outsells the Lexus GS and the Infini M but I would bet you wouldnt call the DTS the better car. The Trailblazer outsells the Pilot but the PIlot is the better vehicle. My point is that sales only equal superiority when an import has the higher sales. The Cobalt outsells the Mazda3 but I will bet your salary that you think the 3 is the better car. Am I right?

Your argument that "the Accord is the benchmark because it's #2 in sales" is bogus.

1487

It's hard to respect anyone who lumps all GM products into a single category and then says "I dont like any GM products because they have nothing to offer". That is the same attitude taken by Karl Brauer of Edmunds and it explains a lot of what I read on this site in terms of reviews. Based on my past conversations with him I learned that he lumps all GM products into the same category and he thinks the Vette isn't much better than a Cobalt. He said every GM product has an unrefined engine, cheap plastic interior and poor steering feel.

Since you are so open minded I would love for you to name a few of the GM (or any domestic vehicles) you give props to. When you talk about your disdain for GM are you you talking about the Cobalt SS, V series cars, the Escalade/Yukon Denali, the new Aura, the XLR, Z06/C6, Grand Prix GXP, Solstice/Sky, SRX, Impala, etc? Are all those products pathetic in your eyes? The only categories where GM is completely incompetitive are midsize SUVs and small pickups. EVen their minivans arent as bad as advertised. Truthfully they have some of the best interiors in the segment and for 2007 they will have 240hp standard.

dino001

BTW, the Caddy DTS outsells the Lexus GS and the Infini M but I would bet you wouldnt call the DTS the better car. The Trailblazer outsells the Pilot but the PIlot is the better vehicle. My point is that sales only equal superiority when an import has the higher sales. The Cobalt outsells the Mazda3 but I will bet your salary that you think the 3 is the better car. Am I right?

Of course. Take fleet and rental sales fro any of those you just mentioned (even DTS) and how much would you have left?
Your sales argument simply does not hold water. When people buy for companies they are obligated to go either with written policies (buy America, price, etc.) and this usually reserves place for Chevies and Fords - when they buy cars for themselves, as long as they can afford new ones and are not into trucks, they go for what they think is superior. So to make fair comparison, you have to take out fleets.

1487

While your post shows that you are ignorant when it comes to GM products I will try to rationalize with you. I think you would have a better understanding of the G6 if you had a handle on the facts. I'll try to present them as concisely as possible.

1. The 3 spoke steering wheel in the G6 has nothing in common with KITTS two spoke wheel and is quite sporty.
2. The stick is available in the GTP for under $25K
3. The G6 looks nothing like the cavalier. It has very short overhangs due to its long wheelbase, it rides low like a European car with little space between wheels and fenders and it has a low sloping roofline which the Cavalier lacked. They have nothing in common.
4. The G6 was never going to be AWD so I dont know where you got that impression from. In case you didnt know manufacturers often come out with radical concept cars that feature styling that is impractical for real life use. Happens all the time.
5. The interior of the G6 is full of plastic, but to me that is no worse than the tons of faux wood used in cars like the Accord and Sonata. I have found the finish quality to be on par with most competitors and superior to the Fusion/6/Sonata.
6. The "pushrod" in the GTP has VVt and a 6400 rpm redline and has been praised for its OHC like refinement. It offers better performance than the V6 engines found in the Fusion or Sonata.
7. The G6 gets a 6 speed auto for 2007 just like the Aura.
8. The G^ has very supportive seats with nice bolstering for aggressive driving. They are not like the flat seats you will find in cars like the Camry, Sonata and Fusion.

"The Aura is a much stronger entry even thought there are some quirks with it that I don't care for. "

What quirks? I want to know what you hate about this car that hasnt even been made yet. In case you didnt know the G6 and Aura are basically the same car. They have the same dimensions, features and mechanicals. if you think these two cars are inferior to Accords of generations past then you are truly out of touch with reality and are a typical fanatical GM hater. I have yet to see what people like you get out of spending so much type obsessing over the downfall of one company. Will your life really be better if GM goes out of business.

logic1

When people buy for companies they are obligated to go either with written policies (buy America, price, etc.) and this usually reserves place for Chevies and Fords

Other than a government agency, I doubt there are many companies with a 'Buy US' protocol.

Companies buy on price, yes, but consider things such as cost to own and maintain.

Toyota, Nissan, and especially HyunKia are becoming big fleet and rental sellers. Taking out fleets may not make as much difference as you appear to suggest.

1487

Do you have fleet sales percentage numbers to back up your claims? Of course you dont. The Lucerne is selling 91% retial right now and I suspect the DTS is doing similar numbers. The CTS outsells the A6 with few fleet sales and yet I bet you dont think the CTS is the better car. The Escalade outsells the Range Rover and the GX470 but I doubt you would say the Escalade is superior. Oh wait, the Escalade is racking up sales to Enterprise. How could I forget?

BTW, subtracting fleet sales from the Cobalts numbers arent enough to put it behind the 3, not by a long shot.

1487

Is a car that sells 130k+ units really a "wonderbomb"? I'm sure it outsells the 6 and the Fusion is just now catching up to it. I see you are basing your posts on the initial media backlash against the G6 when it came out in 2004. At that time it had one engine and was selling around 5k units a month, maybe more. The automotive experts said it was a flop and the Grand Am was better. The entire time Pontiac said to wait until the model line was complete. Last year it was selling at 10K+ in many months and all the experts where nowhere to be found.

dino001

Since you are so open minded I would love for you to name a few of the GM (or any domestic vehicles) you give props to. When you talk about your disdain for GM are you you talking about the Cobalt SS, V series cars, the Escalade/Yukon Denali, the new Aura, the XLR, Z06/C6, Grand Prix GXP, Solstice/Sky, SRX, Impala, etc?

Cobalt SS - no way I would buy it - much better choices for the money.
Escalade/Yukon - not my cup of tea, I loath big SUVs.
Aura - will see, still too much under wraps; if replace good V6 with junk 3.5, no thanks. No wagon, no manual.
XLR - maybe, too much money for me, too academic to even think about it.
Grand Prix GXP - are you kidding? hundred years old chassis with front drive V8? - no, thanks
Z06/C6 - see XLR
Solstice/Sky - actually yes if I was into roadsters. The turbo may be a real hoot. Could use 6-speed.
Impala - are you kidding? Why would I do that to myself? Weekend rental from AVIS is more than enough of exposure. No amount of cashback can do it :sick:
SRX - probably, if not the price and just too big for me. Can see why one may want it, though.
V-series - too much money for CTS considering el cheapo interior (that also carries to non-V).

dino001

I don't need number, take a trip to local Enterprise, AVIS and National and see what they have. Come on - at least get real.

logic1

Along with GMs and Fords, a whole slew of Hyundais, Subarus, Nissans, Toyota Corollas, Ravs, Mitsubishis, Volvos, etc.

I travel for work and rent all the time. I am getting Japanese and Korean as often as US.

The only cars I do not get are the RWD Europeans.

socala4

Do you have fleet sales percentage numbers to back up your claims? Of course you dont.

I have posted numerous threads on this subject, and the Big 2.5's dominance of the fleet market is indisputable. As an example, I posted an article from Automotive News that showed that over 80% of rental car sales in the US came from the Big 2.5, which obviously leaves less than 20% of the market to all of the other manufacturers combined. Everyone in the industry understands this, and nobody denies it.

I'd suggest that you search through these threads on the News and Views forum here, and comment on the actual data.

anythngbutgm

Let's see, where to begin.

"Since you are so open minded I would love for you to name a few of the GM (or any domestic vehicles) you give props to."

At the moment I find the Saturn Sky to be a very promising entry. My beef with it is that it is a piece parts car, parts plucked from other models, not a ground up roadster like a Miata or S2000. The gearbox is out of a freakin Colorado pickup truck and it feels like it. Notchy, grabby, and about as precise as the one on my ride on tractor... from the 80's.

I will miss the Pontiac GTO. A very understated car, and a slid performer... in a straight line. Referring to my earlier examplpe, it was out slalomed by a Camry Solar according to Edmunds and the 350hp 04' model was outgunned in acceleration by a 240hp Accord coupe V6. But still, interior accoutriments were decent, build quality was decent and the idea of a Muscle car was unique as an option to the Mustang GT. Too bad it was 35 grand while a GT was 29.

I think the Saturn lineup as a whole looks very promising. Too bad it is finally getting much needed atention after loafing along on the measly SL. The Vue V6 could count but in my opinion the only redeeming quality is the gem of a V6 (from Honda). Interior is lacking and the CVT tranny turned out to be a problematic waste of time and what do you know? Saturn is dropping it.

anythngbutgm

I think the new GMT900 SUV's are worlds better than the ones they replace. But the Ford products one up them with independent rear suspension and power fold rear seats. Unless you like a workout removing the seats, fold down is the way to go. I have them in an MDX and the utility is handy. And Ford outdid the GMT's with the last generation. The GMT's are brand new and still carrying the live rear end.

I spent the day in NY a couple of weeks ago for the Auto Show and looked heavily at the GM products. Here are some of the other things I picked up on (Not going to go into great detail since I am not writing a book here)

Corvette: Rolling door stops doing nothing for me. I espect the performance but the interior STILL isn't up to par, the seating position is like sitting in a recliner, and the paint job is atrociuos. Sadly, looking at a 60k Z06 and then looking at a 20k Hyundai Tiburon, the Tibby blew the Vette away in paint quality.

Cobalt: better than the Cavalier it replaces (See G6 for that replacment) but not on par with the Civic and most of all the Mazda3.

Buick lineup: offers NOTHING I would ever consider. I don't like big wishy-washy tugboats. But then again I am not over 60 yo and prefer road feel over pillow soft. BUT, as I said before, I was extremely impressed with the Enclave concept. That thing blew me away with interior quality and details. I would put that on par with any Lexus for atention to detail.

GMT trucks: Once again big improvment, but I have zero need for something that big and cumbersome. And with today gas gouging.... er crisis I wouldn't flip for the fuel bill on one of those puppies.

Caddy: Eh, V-series are good performers, but interior build quality and materials is shamed by a Kia. And Cady is under the impression that they can charge Euro prices for their cars. I'd rather have the real thing, thank you very much.

rockylee

You had my credibility all the way to right here->Caddy: Eh, V-series are good performers, but interior build quality and materials is shamed by a Kia.

That's where I realized you weren't being honest and unbiased.

Rocky

anythngbutgm

I get the feeling like you people don't know me. I have been here fer a while, not a newbe...........

I think on the effort front, Ford and especially Chrysler have shown great improvments intheir preoducts. Hit or miss here, they seem to hit the mark with me one way or another. The 300C, Charger, and RAM trucks are all top notch IMO. I am not a "BIG MOTOR AR AR AR" Tim Allen guy, but the SRT lineup grabs my attention big time. If gas gouging prices werent through the roof, a GC SRT would be sitting in my driveway instead of the MDX. I am axiously awaitin the new Challenger, it is going to be hot. I predict Chrysler will sell every single one of them that they make. BTW, the Camaro does zilch for me. Sorry, that thing is concept, add bumpers and some cut lines, and raise the roofline to a level not made for a munchkin and it will look completely different. IMO the Challenger looks buildable as it stands on the podium. But I am purely biased right?

Ford when they REALLY try to build a good product, they nail it more or less. The F-series trucks deserve the title of #1, the Mustang is a BARGAIN for the performance. The Fusion twins are extremely competitive to the Camcors of the world and the Freestyle is a solid midsize X-over. I think that once the 3.5 makes it into the lineup, Ford will be in even better shape with models like the Freestyle and Fusion as well as he 500 (That thing needs more motor)

anythngbutgm

Cobalt SS: Good performer, F/F wing and body kit are so boy racer.

XLR: Do they even make those anymore? No thanks.

Grand Prix GXP: V8 stuffed into a front drive family sedan. Instead of giving a proper refined V6, GM goes "OLD SCHOOL" and drops a V8 in just to compete. My dad has a Grand Prix. The interior is trash. The "HAL" readout ? The rear seats are atrocious for comfort and headroom (Like most of GM's cars. The rear seat forces your bottom forward while you back is arched so badly you'll need a chiropractor after a half hour roadtrip.

"EVen their minivans arent as bad as advertised." hahahahaha

What are you a damn salesman? :mad:

There MR 1487, answered your questions. Call me a biased buffoon, I don't really give a damn. As far as I am concerned, GM can kiss off. They are number #1, for what? What makes them so deserving of the title? They should have been knocked down years ago, make that decades ago IMO.

anythngbutgm

While your argument shows ignorance in that you don't read my posts but rather accuse me of mindless bashing, I don't understand how you can call yourself rational. More like "Hey I don't like what you said" "You don't like my glorious, wonderful GM cars".

"The 3 spoke steering wheel in the G6 has nothing in common with KITTS two spoke wheel and is quite sporty."

"The G6 looks nothing like the cavalier. It has very short overhangs due to its long wheelbase, it rides low like a European car with little space between wheels and fenders and it has a low sloping roofline which the Cavalier lacked. They have nothing in common."

"The interior of the G6 is full of plastic, but to me that is no worse than the tons of faux wood used in cars like the Accord and Sonata. I have found the finish quality to be on par with most competitors and superior to the Fusion/6/Sonata."

Seriously, are you a salesman? I sense a bit of ignorant bias on your part.

"The G6 was never going to be AWD so I dont know where you got that impression from. In case you didnt know manufacturers often come out with radical concept cars that feature styling that is impractical for real life use. Happens all the time."

http://images.search.yahoo.com/search/images/view?back=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.searc- h.yahoo.com%2Fsearch%2Fimages%3Fp%3DG6%2BPONTIAC%26sm%3DYahoo%2521%2BSearch%26to- ggle%3D1%26ei%3DUTF-8%26fr%3DFP-tab-img-t%26b%3D21&w=433&h=205&imgurl=a137.g.aka- mai.net%2Fn%2F137%2F3538%2F20030114215455%2Fwww.cars.com%2Ffeatures%2Fautoshow20- 03%2Fconcept%2Fpontiac%2Fimages%2Fcncpt_pontiac_g6.jpg&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.car- s.com%2Fcarsapp%2Fnational%3Fsrv%3Dparser%26act%3Ddisplay%26tf%3D%2Ffeatures%2Fa- utoshow2003%2Fconcept%2Fpontiac%2Fg6.tmpl&size=11.0kB&name=cncpt_pontiac_g6.jpg&- p=G6+PONTIAC&type=jpeg&no=24&tt=675&ei=UTF-8

The G6 is the latest concept introduced by Pontiac at the 2003 North American International Auto Show in Detroit. Bob Lutz, vice chairman of product development and chairman for General Motors North America, called the G6 a “mildly conceptized version of the next-generation Grand Am,” which could reach dealers sometime next year.

"The 3.5-liter V-6 engine produces 285 horsepower and 272 pounds-feet of torque. The G6 employs a four-speed-automatic transmission with tap-up/tap-down shifting on steering wheel and uses all-wheel drive."


Straight out of good ol Bob's yapper.

"What quirks? I want to know what you hate about this car that hasnt even been made yet. In case you didnt know the G6 and Aura are basically the same car. They have the same dimensions, features and mechanicals. if you think these two cars are inferior to Accords of generations past then you are truly out of touch with reality and are a typical fanatical GM hater."

I see, so because I don't like a GM car I am out of touch? Or is it because it is something you don't like to hear? :lemon:

Hey, here's a quirk.

http://www.leftlanenews.com/2006/05/03/saturn-ditches-plastic-panels-for-aura-ou- - tlook/

"Lajdziak also said the Aura will not be offered with a manual transmission, but rather with a six-speed automatic featuring tap-shifting."

I guess looking for an Aura with a stick is out of the question. The wheels that they chose are hideous. The front door design reaks of sheapness, and the interior character transition from the door to the dash is off a bit.

Let me guess... I am just being biased :mad:

ustazzaf

dieselone wrote: "When the fuel pump died on my Suburban (nearly $450 just for the damn pump), not like I was going to drop a 31 gallon fuel tank in my driveway."

This is one design aspect of many cars with electric fuel pumps that I simply don't understand, unless it's the "bean counters" at work. In two of my cars with electric fuel pumps, both European cars, the fuel pump is accessed from the trunk. There's an access plate on the top of the poly fuel tank, beneath the trunk floor, to replace the fuel pump. Fuel pump replacement takes no more than 15 minutes.

I did drop my 38 gallon Sub tank in my driveway. Everyone in the circle got some free gas (in the buck fifty era) so I wouldn't have to drop all the weight. Also did my buddies fullsize Bronco a few years back. Had to do that twice because we got the wrong pump the first time and the parts store was closed. Of course he filled the tank on the way to my house where it died. I don't understand the lack of a trap door. Atleast my pump was under $100. Unfortunately the tow wasn't. MY car couldn't break in my driveway.

anythngbutgm

Answered all your questions 1487. Hopefully it'll give you some insight before jumping to conclusions and accusing people of ignorance and bias.

Edmunds.com DOES NOT REQUIRE posters to like GM. Period. Ramming your opinion down other posters throats is arrogant, ignorant and rude. I defended myself, I answered all your questions.

Take em or leave em.

anythngbutgm

Hey since you wanna grill me for answers here' one for ya...

Do you honestly believe GM deserves the #1 title?

DO you honestly believe GM puts its best foot forward to deliver the most competitive, highest quality product money can buy? Really, what makes them such a leader?

What makes them THAT much better than the competition that they deserve so much apology?

Unless you really are on the GM payroll, then I look forward to your honest insight...

imidazol97

Local Hertz a couple exits away on interstate has Corolla, Camry, a GM minivan, an Impala, a couple of Mazdas-don't know the model. There seems to be an interesting mix now. I think I've seen a 500 there. It's a satellite location.

anythngbutgm

Yeah, thanks Rocky. Much appreciated.

I got the same reaction when I didn't believe the 2004 Malibu was the second coming of Christ and was going to eat the Accord and Camry alive. Same thing happened with the Saturn L300.

I was way off base and both those are just tearing up the sales charts!...

mfletou1

Ok, look. Over the course of multiple threads on here, as a 5-time GM owner I have expressed the fact that I've pretty much had it with GM. I'm done to the point that if I was buying right now, it would probably be an Accord.

BUT...I read posts like this and I can't help myself...what an ignoramus.

Interior Build Quality of a Cadillac is shamed by a KIA? What? Go drive an STS and make that same claim. If you're Catholic, you'd have to end up in confession. The STS interior build quality is excellent. Is it Mercedes or Lexus? Maybe not. But its up to that standard. And vehicle performance and engineering surprasses many of those vehicles.

I agree on Buick, I agree with the criticism of the Grand Prix. But leave Cadillac alone. If all of GM were like Cadillac, it would be the best manufacturer in the world.

anythngbutgm

That comparison is directed more at the CTS and SRX rather than the whole lineup. I have yet to read a review that doesn't give low marks for the interior of those two. So my conclusion may be harsh, but I am not wrong for expecting better.

Pardon me for not explaining in more detail...

andres3

Even if GM/Ford/Chrysler can catch up to Honda Toyota in terms of quality, build, fit and finish, performance, and style, they still have a long way to go when it comes to reliability.

Reliability is key, because a Corrolla can out speed any giant V8 vehicle the Big 3 can muster from 0 to 60 MPH, because the Big 3 vehicle will be unable to start, due to reliability problems.

nippononly

Damn the torpedoes, and full speed ahead on that Le Mans, andre! I LOVE it!

I will eat my hat if you find comfort in a Yaris after your comments on the xA. But I count on you to stay Mopar anyway - I think it's the Caliber for you, sir! There's a lot to recommend that car, even if one of the elements that WON'T is the interior plastics. ;-)

11,000 buyers in March alone can't all be wrong...

:-)

tlong

The Vue V6 could count but in my opinion the only redeeming quality is the gem of a V6 (from Honda). Interior is lacking and the CVT tranny turned out to be a problematic waste of time and what do you know? Saturn is dropping it

That's what I don't understand. The Quad 4 is gone because it had trouble. The CVT is being dropped. Why don't they fix it and make it reliable? They've already sunk all the development money -- spend the last 10% and fix the thing.

nippononly

"The Lucerne is selling 91% retial right now and I suspect the DTS is doing similar numbers"

The Deville was selling roughly 1/3 to fleets at this time last year, and I can't imagine that will have changed much.

http://www.fleet-central.com/af/t_pop_pdf.cfm?action=stat&link=http://www.fleet-- central.com/af/stats2005/cars_web.pdf

If Lucerne is really selling at 91% retail (do you have a source for that, or are you guesstimating?), that would be a tremendous improvement for Buick. The LeSabre was another fleet special, selling at almost 40% to fleets.

nippononly

may not be selling to anyone for a while a couple of months from now - the UAW is voting on a strike of Delphi to take place in June, and is expected to vote 'yes', as Delphi has petitioned to void their contracts.

In the meantime, I have to agree that the interior of the CTS is pretty poor for an entry-lux car, or whatever that one qualifies as. And the Grand Prix is easily the most awful vehicle GM now has on the road. Dropping a V-8 and big front tires in it will not change that at all.

But the Cobalt is a very decent little car, and if you're looking at a Focus or Sentra, even a Corolla, it is worth a look. Of course, they should have put the quad taillights of the coupe on the sedan as well! ;-)

Corvette is the ripping performance bargain of the sports car world, even if the interior has been shorted a bit in the name of performance. We are talking about a car that can out-perform cars costing literally TWICE the price.

I am not sure why the G6 is being trashed so much here - it is decent as GM cars go, better built and nicer inside than the Kia sedan for instance, maybe Altima too, and certainly Stratus. It definitely is a move up from the current Malibu. The claim of "sportiness" is a bit far-fetched in the G6, but no harm done. And the new Impala - well sure, it is a rental fave, but it is a very decent choice among large cars, with just a whisper of the GM interior cheapness of old left in there for the sake of nostalgia, and a very low price.

I don't get the LaCrosse - too cheaply designed for what I thought was the mission of Buick - but the Lucerne is a very nice car if you are into that sort of thing (that sort of thing being a luxo-cruiser rather than anything sporty), and at the low end in the mid-$20Ks (real-world transaction price) it is a decent value. GM really should make the Northstar standard for this model though, or at least make the base engine the OHC 3.6.

I have been looking at VWs a bit lately - dunno why, maybe because VW dealers are having such a hard time selling cars lately that the deals are a-plenty. I love the interiors, and the warranty is now 4/50 B2B, and 5/60 powertrain. The new Golf is coming, and with a base price under $16K, it looks to be a bargain. If only the strange 5-cylinder got better fuel economy.

anythngbutgm

I fell for the GTI in NY. The little touches and appointments made the car feel like it could hhave been priced about 10 grand higher than it actually is. VW/Audi interiors really nail it when it comes to style, quality and substance. Their new saftey ads hit home on the conscience front as well. There really isn't too much many reasons I wouldn't give VW a chance.

Except we have pisspoor dealers here in MA. :sick:

logic1

Even if you are not interested in buying a GTI, check out the build feature promotion.

After spec ing your GTI, you get to take a video test ride on a track with Helga, VWs nutty German spokesmodel.

The video changes depending upon how you spec the car. I guess they made the film by having the Helga actress sit in some studio somewhere and then made the car, etc. digitally around her. It looks real though. And the actress is very funny.

I kind of like the GTI. Not sure about paying 28k for one. But still ...

lemko

Holy smoke! Isn't that the same kind of car Sheriff Buford T. Justice drove? Heck, why not just get an SRT8 Charger or SRT8 300? As long as we're walking on the thin ice, we might as well dance!

Seriously, if we're talking econo cars here, that Caliber is nice. I dig the drink cooler! As for me, I'd get one of those pert little Cobalt coupes. What about the Nissan Versa? Seems to get lost among all the talk about the Fit and Yaris. Heck, you could also be the old guy who thinks he's with it and hip and get a Scion.

lemko

I don't care for SUVs regardless of who makes them. You're as likely to see me in an Escalade and you are a RAV4. I didn't say Toyota cars were out entirely. If GM became extinct and I then ate a 55 gallon drum full of Prozac and washed it down with a distillery full of Jack Daniel's, I could get a Lexus LS430 or a really loaded Avalon.

Of course, with the demise of a major employer like GM, my money would be more wisely invested in a few assault rifles, several large-caliber handguns, body armor, and bulletproof panels and glass for my current ride. All of America will soon resemble "Escape from New York."

scott1256

is being played out right now. A Delphi strike vote was scheduled yesterday by the UAW.

GM won't survive this strike if it lasts very long.

The desirable vehicles like the Corvette, trucks and Cadillac might be purchased by other companies and continue. OTOH, it may all fade away quickly.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060503/ap_on_bi_ge/delphi_unions_4

anythngbutgm

Even I don't think GM is going anywhere. I think they need to cut a bit of fat to survive, but I'll wager on them not going out of business in my lifetime... Nor do I want them to.

anythngbutgm

That bad??? They haven't made provisions to protect themselves in this situation?

What cna be done to help this? Government bailout?

scott1256

I don't think a govt bailout is on the horizon.

GM has money to survive a strike but would have no money left for R&D.

It depends on the strike vote: could be the end of the road.

mopowah

that if they strike, they'll be essentially cutting off their own nose to spite their face.

nippononly

If GM burns the rest of its savings on or during the strike, it won't matter if the strike is resolved - they will probably still have to declare bankruptcy, as there won't be any money left to continue operations. Remember they are $10 billion in the red just since last January. While the GMT900 trucks now pretty much own the large SUV segment, I don't share GM's faith that the segment will continue flat for sales in the face of these super-high gas prices. I think large-truck sales will fall further this summer. Look at F-150, the most popular large pick-up in the world, down 9% last month. If the gas prices can hit the F, they will certainly hit the monster trucks.

scott1256

I believe you are right.

It isn't good for us as consumers to have a big player taken out of the marketplace.

A Delphi strike would be a huge gift to Toyota, Honda, Hyndai etc. for both market share and profits.

baggs32

GM has money to survive a strike but would have no money left for R&D.

When did they start doing R&D? :P

No flaming now. That was just a joke.

xrunner2

Of course, with the demise of a major employer like GM, my money would be more wisely invested in a few assault rifles, several large-caliber handguns, body armor, and bulletproof panels and glass for my current ride. All of America will soon resemble "Escape from New York."

GM will somehow survive by shifting more operations out of the US. Diminishment of GM US operations would probably be offset by companies like Toyota building more plants and possibly hiring some ex GMers. Perhaps folks that want to buy a foreign car in years to come will turn to the GM brand.

andres3

Hire Ex GMers? Obviously GM's workers were really good at one thing, running a huge company into the ground!

Terrible management, terrible build quality, and terrible materials and product quality..... Toyota isn't looking for workers that allowed that to happen.

dino001

You forgot about that amazing ability to find anything and anybody else to blame for your problems. You can't beat that!

scott1256

Toyota plants are not in Detroit.

GM workers would have to relocate to work at Toyota or any of the other import plants that are in the US now.

andres3

Yes Dino.... I think it's time all GM workers make a career change to another industry. Maybe they can be successful at something other than building vehicles.

anythngbutgm

Hey Mr. 1487...

Do you honestly believe GM deserves the #1 title?

DO you honestly believe GM puts its best foot forward to deliver the most competitive, highest quality product money can buy? Really, what makes them such a leader?

What makes them THAT much better than the competition that they deserve so much apology?

Looking for your input on this.