Stories from the Sales Frontlines

snakeweasel

Nicely done except that you left out one important thing. Tax, Title and License. Adding sales tax will add $5-7 on your monthly payment and would give the Hyundai a slight advantage. That advantage would only increase as you hold onto the car longer.

snakeweasel

But if the Huyndai is in the shop... under warranty who is going to pay for the rental????

Same people who will pay for the rental when your Honda is in the shop.

snakeweasel

I'll say it again. Although I'm no fan of Korean cars, I'll be the first to say that they have, indeed come a long way. I'll be more of a believer in long term reliability when I see long term results.

Lets see in my family:

the one I just got rid of was 9 years old with almost 170K miles, no issues and was still running good.

Wife is driving one thats 7 years old about 120K miles no issues running good.

Daughter is driving one 8 years old about 135K miles no issues.

I am confident that I can put their reliability up against Honda.

roadburner

I'd love to have a new ponycar for my next track rat but all three are too big and heavy for my tastes. Of the three, the Mustang is my favorite, but the numb steering and live rear axle disqualify it from consideration.

isellhondas

It's good to hear they have improved since thier initial offerings.

They had to or they would have been gone!

houdini1

Isell, couldn't the same thing be said about Honda? You seem to have some animosity toward Hyundai. Are you losing sales to them in your area?

isellhondas

Actually no. The first Hondas were crude, tinny and primitive but they were well put together and they were very reliable.

The same can be said for Toyota and Datsun (Nissan).

The Korean makes were different. They weren't very reliable and they were very crude at the time. I guess that memory lingers for me,

No animosity and I do (now) recognize them as a competitior.

I just don't understand why anyone would buy one. They really aren't much less money and they have poor resale. As used cars, they have few fans. I just think there are better choices out there but that's me. I also think there are worse choices!

I probably get too hung up on resale and that's because I have to deal with this on a daily basis when people want to trade certain cars in.

jmonroe

I just don't understand why anyone would buy one.

Maybe it’s because of the arrogance of a Honda salesman.

Like a guy I work with who has a 2007 CRV and likes Honda’s because they are reliable. He had to replace a 1999 Pontiac 2000 (I think that’s the model he said) so he checks prices of the Civic and Elantra. He gets a price from the Hyundai dealer then goes to the Honda dealer where he bought his CRV (same salesman) and gets a price on the Civic. It’s around $1800 more than the Elantra and it isn’t equipped as well (I don’t know all the details) but I’ll trust he knows how to compare the simple specs of a car since he knows how to compare the specs of equipment that he does for a living that costs $200K +. After getting the price he tells the salesman about the Civic not being a one for one equal yet it costs more and asks, “how do you expect me to pay this price for that car”? The salesman said simply, “because it’s a HONDA”. So, he now owns an Elantra.

I’ve heard similar comments from other prospective Honda buyers the last few years. I have to assume at one time this worked but as other cars have become more reliable and more people are capable of reading between the lines, Honda seems to have lost the sheer advantage of the Honda badge.

jmonroe

lrguy44

There is more to buying a car than price, Some things are very personal. When a customer tells me that ride and seat comfort are important, I tell him that only a demo drive (or extended demo) will let him determine if the vehicle for them. There are many other things in a vehicle that are subjective. It is a big part of my job to help a customer determine if a certain vehicle fits thier needs. Therefore, while price is important, it is only part of the purchase decision. The discussion that price is the only consideration what car is right is ridiculous.

exb0

The discussion that price is the only consideration what car is right is ridiculous.

It's ridiculous when someone who is purchasing a $50-$80k vehicle. It is very relevant when someone is shopping for Civic or Elantra. Obviously, not to everybody because Civics are still selling, but to enough people to make Honda and Toyota sweat a little.

exb0

Speaking of of equipment. Honda is skimping on dumbest stuff to safe money. We just purchased a top of the line, $26K CR-V EX-L. Homelink for garage doors is not available. Ok, I can forgive them this one, but the Odyssey has it.

However, headlights don't turn off automatically when the ignition is off. There are no a/c vents in the back. And this one is a kicker, the vanity mirrors are not illuminated. There is a space for the light, but it's filled with a plastic filler. Mind you a $15-16K base Sonata has most of these features.

jmonroe

There is more to buying a car than price, Some things are very personal.

I agree with you about that comment but I have no idea why you are bringing this up in regards to my post number 42898. My post was talking about value for the dollar spent between two cars that would equally satisfy a buyer. So, the personal decision was made. Both cars would fulfill the need; therefore, price would clinch the deal.

It is a big part of my job to help a customer determine if a certain vehicle fits thier needs.

I have heard this comment from salesman here many times, yet I have never needed this service from a salesman at any time, whenever I bought a car. Now that I think of it, I don’t know of anyone who has needed this type of advice either. I guess I don’t run in the same circles as those that do.

The discussion that price is the only consideration what car is right is ridiculous.

I never said that. Are you sure you read post 42898?

jmonroe

jmonroe

Mind you a $15-16K base Sonata has most of these features.

When you are trying to play catch-up these are the things that a car manufacture has to do to get back in the game and they have done it. Plus, Hyundai made driver and passenger safety a priority on the Sonata. That car even had side curtain air bags as far back as the 06’ model I bought.

jmonroe

isellhondas

Well, if a salesperson comes off as arrogant it's an instant no sale.

If a cutomer would have asked me that question I would have explained that the market is what determines price. If the market for an Elantra is, 1800.00 less than that is what it is worth.

I would explain total cost of ownership is what really matters and not initial price. Hopefully I wouldn't come off as arrogant.

isellhondas

A lot of those things don't matter to many people. I for one could care less about homelink. My garage door opener takes no more effort and I really don't care if my headlights shut themselves off. It's nothing for me to twist the turn signal stalk.

Vanity mirror lights? Yeah I guess those would be nice but I can't remember the last time I used mine or the last time I saw my wife use hers. A kicker? Really? I don't think too many people would care. If they do care they haven't mentioned it to me and people usually don't hold back if something bothers them.

I guess it's all a matter of how much people want to spend on a car because nothing is free. All of these things cost money.

We hear..." It would be nice IF Honda would..." or, " You would THINK Honda would do this or that"

And, Honda listens. They really do and they try to strike a balance.

On the Odysseys, some people thought they should have a power tailgate, they thought the passengers seat should be power. They wanted a backup camera. In 2009, Honda added these features to the EX-L's. Of course the price went up accordingly.

Features that some people can't live without are of little if any value to others.

It's a balance.

deltheking

I have always felt Toyotas are slightly more reliable than Hondas..That`s just my personal opinion and experience..
Having said that ,there is a lot of plastic in Hondas nowadays.Example--Odyssey . Compare it to the Sienna..Sienna`s fit and finish and interior materials are top notch.No cheap plastic here.Especially the Top trim XLE-- it is downright luxurious compared to EX-L odyssey which just looks like an optioned -up van.

And the biggest issue--Terrible terrible road noise plus more squeaks and rattles than Toyota/Hyundai.I had an 07 Odyssey which I sold with only 700 miles on it.Why? The interior cabin and road noise is simply unbearable and unacceptable and the plastic scratched so easily--reminded me of Dodge car interiors.Just bought into the hype on the Odyssey instead of the Sienna but made a bad choice.
U drive a Honda without the stereo on a rough pavement--well its like a tin box.

The best thing about Hondas--terrific resale value.One of the best resales out there.Period.

But Spending 25k + on a car and it is noisy with rattles---well, totally unacceptable.Yes ,its sporty but that doesn`t mean it has to be noisy,rattly and jittery...Absolutely,no excuse there.Suzuki and Mitsu have much quieter cabins than Honda..BMW also has sporty cars but they are not noisy.And the interiors on Hondas are getting cheap and plasticky.Example-the new Pilot.

Hyundai has been improving tremendously and other than the horrible resale value and bland looks ,it is a very competitive vehicle to Honda.
Just MHO.

tidester

There is more to buying a car than price, Some things are very personal.

If, by personal, you mean design and functionality preferences, then fine. But if you mean emotional preferences then I'll pass. A salesperson has no emotional investment in the car so why would I give him or her an advantage in negotiating a purchase?

tidester, host
SUVs and Smart Shopper

graphicguy

roadburner.....some of these "new" pony cars are surprising with their power to weight ratios. While still not as good as an independent rear suspension, Ford has done a good job with the rear solid axle on the Mustang. The only time you notice it is getting a little rear bounce around corners over very rough road. I haven't driven the '10 MY Mustang. But, I expect it to be a little better in that regard.

Unless you're on a drag strip, I don't think the difference in the performance of either the Camaro SS vs the Mustang GT is going to be enough for anyone to get their panties in a bunch about. Where the real difference will be is between the base versions of either car. That Chevy/Cadillac V6 is a sweet motor compared to the V6 in the Mustang.

Regarding price/value ratios, Hyundai vs Honda, for my son, the Elantra was the perfect vehicle.....long warranty, low upkeep. It's served him very well. And, we knew that he would be driving it until the wheels fell off. So, resale wasn't going to be an issue. But, I could never get comfortable in it (still can't). He and I looked at a Civic when we were shopping. It fit me better. But, for him, the Elantra was fine. Fortunately for both him and me, the Elantra was the cheaper of the two.

If it were solely my choice, I wouldn't be able to live with the Elantra because it just didn't seem to fit me right. I'm average weight and height, so it's not like I was too big or too small for it. So, I would've spent more money for the Civic, regardless of the difference in equipment levels and price.

Point of all of this, you can check off feature for feature on paper....and compare price. But, regardless of the equipment or price disparities, if you can't feel good in the car, none of that really matters. At least it wouldn't matter to me as there's no possible way I'd live with my purchase if the ergonomics, the "fit" of the car to me, etc couldn't be rectified.

snakeweasel

Actually no. The first Hondas were crude, tinny and primitive but they were well put together and they were very reliable.

I knew people who had those early Hondas, they were crude very tinny would fall apart if a tricycle hit them, would be lucky if they started rusting during the second midwest winter and they certainly were not all that reliable.

The Korean makes were different. They weren't very reliable and they were very crude at the time. I guess that memory lingers for me,

IIRC the Excell was a piece of junk but the Scoop was a pretty good car.

houdini1

I agree with your post and would say that we usually tend to evaluate cars the same way that we do people. Cars, like people, are much more than the sum of their parts.

Some you like at first sight, others you don't. Some sort of grow on you, others don't. Some look great on paper but don't impress in person. Some are kind of quirky but you like them anyway. Some you enjoy spending time with, others not so much. I could go on but that is my point.

isellhondas

I totally disagree with you on the interior quality between Odysseys and Siennas. I feel the opposite and so do most of my customers.

Same applies to Pilots. I have never heard this from anyone else and they don't squeak or rattle.

I do agree on the road noise issue. Honda just can't seem to tackle this. I don't hear the squeaks and rattles you do but the tire noise is more than it should be. Some people are bothered by this, others are not. Honda...are you listening??

I've actually had customers bring decimal meters and compare cars. The Hondas are always noisier that the comparable Toyota but not by huge amounts. Still, enough to bother some people.

A lot of people don't like the floaty, mushy ride of a Toyota compared to a Honda but others, mostly older people that are used to Buicks do.

I guess this is why restaurants have menus.

jmonroe

I've actually had customers bring decimal meters and compare cars.

Really? Did it go out to 10 places or more like the standard 8? Sorry, I couldn’t resist that one.

If I was a salesman and I saw a customer walk in with a piece of equipment like a decibel meter, I’d go fetch a greenpea. Enough is enough and that would be too much for me. :mad:

jmonroe

fezo

I do find that Honda tire noise can be lessened by buying a quieter tire than the OEM one. The original Michelins on our Accord were clearly designed primarily for long tread life. I switched them out after a couple of years and put on Dunlop A2s which made a world of difference - better handling and quieter. Still not Camry quiet but I have no need for Camry quiet.

The Symmetrys that used to come standard on the Ody EX are a great tire for that van. The Bridgestones with the LX not nearly so.

driver100

And the biggest issue--Terrible terrible road noise

You don't have the radio on LOUD ENOUGH!

roadburner

roadburner.....some of these "new" pony cars are surprising with their power to weight ratios. While still not as good as an independent rear suspension, Ford has done a good job with the rear solid axle on the Mustang. The only time you notice it is getting a little rear bounce around corners over very rough road. I haven't driven the '10 MY Mustang. But, I expect it to be a little better in that regard.

The power-to-weight ratio isn't the problem; it's the overall mass of the vehicle. The Alpina B7 that I took to Motorsport Ranch could easily run the quarter mile in the high twelves but it was not nearly as much fun to drive as an E36 or E46 M3. The difference was the additional weight- which made itself felt in every corner and in every braking zone. When I'm looking for a vehicle it simply must be entertaining to drive- and for me that means it has to be RWD and weigh less than 3500 pounds to even merit consideration.

lrguy44

I have no idea why you are bringing this up in regards to my post number 42898

Only convenience, nothing personal. But the whole thread was price, cost, price, cost. Most people have a budget, but much more than price drives the sale. One person may find a Hyundai more comfortable and a better ride than a Honda or Toyota. Another person may find the Toyota better. There are many other intangibles that can drive a sale. It is a big part of my job to help a customer determine if a certain vehicle fits thier needs.

I have heard this comment from salesman here many times, yet I have never needed this service from a salesman at any time, whenever I bought a car. Now that I think of it, I don’t know of anyone who has needed this type of advice either. I guess I don’t run in the same circles as those that do.

I (and isell. boomchek and others) will testify that you are in a small minority. Any professional sales person in any industry (and I had 25 years of technical sales) will tell you a sale is made when your product fulfils a need. A salesman job is to find needs and try to fulfil them. It is not advice, it is finding what is important to a customer and demonstrating your products capability in those areas.

lrguy44

I did mean the intangibles in design, and function. But many people also buy for emotional reasons.
As a salesman, I am emotionally attached to my product. It may not be for everyone, but I believe in the differences my product brings to the table. As you read the other sales guys, you can also feel the emotional attachment they bring with thier product.

greanpea68

Exbo,

I hear ya and I understand what you are saying about some of the features.... But think of it this way. The Crv and the Odyssey are two completely different vehicle that serve different needs and different demographics.

Home link: Most people who drive a Odyssey are going to have a family and a home ... probably with a garage... Crv buyers "may" live a different life style, they may have no children and "may" not have a garage.... I would like to say maybe CRV buyer are PRE-OYdessey buyers...

A/C vents and lighted mirrors.... Well these little features are nice, but the public wants big discounts becuase the country is in a economic crisis and we all have to make sacrifices....

Comparing a CRV to a SONATA?????? Once again two different demographics, Most sedans are going to have those nice little features so to stay in competion you have to have what the others have. :surprise:

GP

isellhondas

You hit the nail on the head and I don't know why Honda doesn't "get it"?

Honda uses top quiality tires that last forever but they are very noisy!

When I pulled the Michelins off of our 1999 V-6 Accord Coupe that we had, I put on Toyos at the suggestion of the guy who sold me the tires.

HUGE difference! Even my wife noticed it with any prompts from me!

sterlingdog

"A salesman has no emotional investment in the car..."

I'm not so sure about that statement. Isell defends Honda; Boom defends Chrysler; Greenpea defends Nissan, etc. It seems natural that you would be a little emotional about the product that you represent. A good salesman wants his customer to like his product as much as he likes it himself.

Richard

greanpea68

you can also feel the emotional attachment they bring with thier product.


Speaking of emotions.... I love the New Land Rover commercial......

Lease a new Land Rover.... With $5000 down +,+,+...... You will have nice low payments of $799/mo :shades: Saw it on a comercial yesterday.

It made me think WOW this is there ADD car :surprise:

GP

sterlingdog

I don't really understand all of this concern about noise from a Honda. We never had a problem with noise from our 2000 Honda CRV. The only time that we heard noise would be on trips to the mountains. The engine would make a roaring noise as it climbed the steep slopes. I was pleased to hear the roar because it was a sign of engine power to me. I never changed the original tires in the four years of ownership. In fact, I never did a thing to the car in the four years except for regular maintenance. It was a good vehicle.

Richard

boomchek

I (and isell. boomchek and others) will testify that you are in a small minority. Any professional sales person in any industry (and I had 25 years of technical sales) will tell you a sale is made when your product fulfils a need. A salesman job is to find needs and try to fulfil them. It is not advice, it is finding what is important to a customer and demonstrating your products capability in those areas.

Well said. Most people who shop for cars (I'd say 80%+) have no clue about them and rely on a good salesperson to find them a vehicle that suits their needs in their budget.

The folks that have as much auto market and auto buying knoweldge as the group here on Edmunds are indeed a minority.

boomchek

Isell defends Honda; Boom defends Chrysler; Greenpea defends Nissan,

Yes, you learn to love the brand too even if you didn't before, as I never imagined I'd sell Chryslers.

sterlingdog

This is just a little story that I thought perhaps you would find interesting. Late yesterday afternoon, I pulled into the parking lot of a convenience store. The only other vehicle there was a Grand Marquis. No one was in the store except the clerk who appeared to be about 35 years old. I asked him if the GM belonged to him. He said, "Yes, why?" I told him that I was a little surprised that a person his age would own a GM. He told me how much he liked the car. He liked the idea of buying that much car for that amount of money. He also enjoyed the ride and the handling of the car. I asked him if his friends gave him a hard time about driving an "old man's" car. He said that only one guy had mentioned it but, after taking his friend for a ride in it, the guy changed his mind. The clerk said that his fiancee has asked if the GM can be her car after they get married. I congratulated him on his purchase. He said, "You really ought to get one. You would like it." Little did he know, right? :P

Richard

tjc78

No one was in the store except the clerk who appeared to be about 35 years old

Heck I am only 30 and have owned a GM and 2 Town Cars. Heck throw two Avalons in there and I guess I enjoy big floaty sedans. I think with my new Genesis I may finally have a vehicle that fits my age (a little anyway) The best part part is I can always borrow my Grandfather's '04 GM! :shades:

sterlingdog

Boom, you would be pleased to hear the radio commercial that my local Chrysler dealer has just made. He reassures the community that the dealership is here to stay, that he will continue to sell and service the best products in the area, and that the merger will make Chrysler even better and stronger than ever before. He mentions the history of his dealership and the high standards that he has always tried to uphold. To me, the commercial was a sober, honest effort to reach both new and old customers. He did a great job delivering the message.

Richard

sterlingdog

Good for you, young man! I'm proud to know you. Perhaps your generation can save a few of the old tanks.

Richard

boomchek

That's nice. You mean it's not a typical screamer ad where the doors are closing and everything, must go, and you can drive away with $99 down and $99/month? :P

jmonroe

Most people who shop for cars (I'd say 80%+) have no clue about them and rely on a good salesperson to find them a vehicle that suits their needs in their budget.

I’m very surprised at the 80% number; shocked really. But if that is the number it explains why most car buyers are in the financial shape they’re in. Kinda like putting the fox in charge of the chicken coop. I know you said “in their budget” but if 80% of buyers need that kind of help to find the right car, I don’t think they actually know what their budget is. Yeah…this explains everything.

The folks that have as much auto market and auto buying knoweldge as the group here on Edmunds are indeed a minority.

I always thought I was ahead of the pack but not anywhere close to the number you mentioned.

jmonroe

lrguy44

But if that is the number it explains why most car buyers are in the financial shape they’re in. Kinda like putting the fox in charge of the chicken coop.

I personally take offense to that remark. You obviously have NO clue what a professional sales person is all about.

percussionist

I personally take offense to that remark. You obviously have NO clue what a professional sales person is all about

Maybe jmonroe was a bit harsh with the analogy, but I remember as a younger, less educated lad how the big question was "how much can you afford per month?" This question was usually followed by suggestions of amounts ($200, $300, $400) and the highest number wins you the best car. It did not matter to those particular salesmen that I would have been upside down on an older used car which might need major repairs before it was paid for, nor did any of them ask how long I would intend to keep said vehicle.

My point is simply that a buyer who "must have a car today" and is, quite frankly, stupid enough to take a salesman's opinion (professional or scrupulous) on what car fits his/her needs best will get what he/she deserves - a car which is most likely not what he or she would have selected on their own. As a result, that person may decide to trade while still upside down, which has created the problem jmonroe mentioned. I don't think he meant any offense, although I disagree with his choice of expression.

Thanks for allowing me my two cents - hope I did not offend

boomchek

It did not matter to those particular salesmen that I would have been upside down on an older used car which might need major repairs before it was paid for, nor did any of them ask how long I would intend to keep said vehicle.

When you come to my dealership, I will advise you on the best car for the money that fits your lifestyle, and your budget, but I have no way of knowing what your other finances in your life are like, nor should it really matter to me unless you bring it up (how much you want to pay monthly).

Basically I'll do my best to show you why you should buy one of my vehicles over a competitor's, but a financial planner I can't be for you.

lrguy44

WELL SAID

fezo

You mean it's not a typical screamer ad where the doors are closing and everything, must go, and you can drive away with $99 down and $99/month?

You mean I can't? :confuse:

sterlingdog

Cliff, don't take offense. I could be wrong, but I think that jmonroe was thinking more about the lack of knowledge on the customer's part. It probably just surprised him that 80% of the public doesn't do their research and think about their finances before they jump into the car buying mode. Therefore, they would be more prone to be led by their noses into a purchase situation. That would explain the "fox" remark. Jmonroe can be pretty blunt at times, but he respects the job that you do. In fact, he'll give me hell in his next post for butting in to this. :P We'll have to be patient with this old, tighta$$. :shades:

ducking and running

Richard

boomchek

Kinda like putting the fox in charge of the chicken coop

J, just cause someone isn't familiar with all the ins and ous of a certain sales process in a certain sector of the retail sales industry, doesn't mean they automatically will get eaten alive and taken advantage of when shopping for that product..

Do you spend times on travel agent forums to learn tips and tricks of travel agencies before you book your next holiday?
How about furniture aseembly and manufacturing chat rooms to figure out how you can score cheap furniture?
What about real estate boards?

Most people don't because they don't care to, or don't have the time for it.

As long as they are dealing with a product advisor they are happy with, and they see the value in a product and pay that, then that's all that matters.

Ultimately, the consumer has the final say whether they will buy or not, not the salesperson, so I don't think it's fair to hint that it's somehow our fault that consumers are loaded in heavy debt.

sterlingdog

Boom, you are right. People only have so much time, energy, and interest to put on various topics. While I use this board and one on real estate, I don't spend much time on vacation and furniture boards. I may check Travelzoo or Orbitz quickly before planning a trip, but nothing in great detail. I spent two hours today looking at patio furniture on line, but I'll probably end up at the store hoping to find what I want at a reasonable price. I'll be depending on the salesman to guide me.

Richard

isellhondas

As I have said many times in these forums, it never fails to amaze me how a few people will be bothered by something that doesn't bother the masses and road noise is one of those things. we had a 2000 CRV and now have a 2003 and we aren't at all bothered by road noise.

Just like I scratch my head when someone thinks Home Link is a must have or they don't want to reach down and turn off their headlights? I don't care about those things nor do the masses yet others do care, big time.

And I know the Toyota salespeople love to build on this..." Oh, now that you'ved driven a Sienna, are you sure you want to drive an Odyssey?" " If you drive an Odyssey be sure to wear ear plugs because the road noise will blow you out of the car!"

I saw the 2000 CRV in the shop last week that we traded in on the 2003 and it made me feel bad. It was in such bad shape. Filthy dirty inside and out. At 198,000 miles, it had a blown engine. I wonder how many oil changes that poor CRV had? Didn't look like very many!

lrguy44

Thanks Richard. I (and the others) do take pride in what we do and how we do it. Even my customers that have done alot of research will learn new things about the car, finance options, etc. when they visit. At times, even with the educated, I am a teacher. Yes, I will ask for an order, but over 50% of my business is repeat and referal. That does not happen without mutual respect and a relationship. That is what all of us (and I include isell, boomer, madman, greanpea etc.) strive for.