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Yankee farmers grow corn, since that's about all they know how to grow according to my FIL.
So the Corn Theory is all hype and isn't neccessary the best way to grow/make ethanol.
Rocky
Shale oil is profitable at $30bbl, Ethanol at some similar level I'm guessing.
Tradional crude from the Saudi's costs about $5 a barrel to produce. Those that consider the billions necessary to produce an alternative are aware of this, knowing that any price war with OPEC would be unwinnable. OPEC knows that high prices for too long will spur us to conserve and could lead to the gluts of the late '70s. Those of us old enough remember that gas was cheaper in '78 ( adj for inflation) than it was before the original oil shock.
In many parts of the world, gasoline is an expensive necessity in the US we play with it, we even rake our leaves with it. 5000lb,AWD,15mpg SUVs transport 100lb women in California.
When we find alrenate formks of gratification that don't burn gasoline the price will fall we'll start buying SUVs again and the cycle will repeat.
Rocky
I think you need to recheck your figures, IIRC gas was around $.30/gallon in the early 70's which would equate to about $.55/gallon by 1979 but gas was well into the $.80-.90/gallon range by then.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
The less we import the fater the GDP grows , evern 20% displacement of Ehanol i.e 36 Billon could provide thousands of jobs and provide positive cash flow to thousands of farmers.
Am I right?
I bet I am right.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Am I right?
I bet I am right."
I'm betting on the 200 MPG carburetor, never mind that cars are fuel injected these days...
There was a recent articly in Fortune magazine about how some politicians are drafting bills that would impose greater regulation/scrutiny over oil companies and actually bring anti-trust lawsuits against OPEC. Pure political gamesmanship. Playing to the misconceptions of the mindless masses. I find it infuriating that these clowns in Washington waste so much time with this non-productive posturing. There are real problems to be solved but to a politician these are all secondary to getting a couple more votes for your party.
“So this is a real big mess on the refining end that's going to create a situation that's going to keep gasoline prices uncertain and potentially very explosive,” says Phil Flynn of the futures and options brokerage Alaron Trading.
The U.S. could have a future powered from the heartland and not overseas oil. But are Americans willing to pay for it?
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/12289938/
I fully expect to be driving a battery powered electric vehicle within 10 years. The charge will come from home produced solar and wind energy. In all likelihood it will have some shortcomings but the satisfaction of being able to say "screw you OPEC, big oil and ADM" will make any inconvenience worth it. I just read an article that there are 180,000 Americans living completely off the grid. For many of these people it was not out of necessity and may have even cost more than being "connected". Their motivation was similar to mine. They are tired of having their energy dependency exploited by corporate greed with the assistance of the federal government. This number is growing by 30% every year. These are the same people that will glady transition to electric vehicles. BTW, Subaru and Mitsubishi have plans to introduce battery powered vehicles by 2010.
Lets see there are 180,000 Americans living completely off the grid and it is estemated that there are 150,000 to 225,000 Amish in the US. You do the math.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/techinnovations/2006-04-12-off-the-grid_x.htm?- POE=TECISVA
Also I don't take to much stock in USA today, to much fluff.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I agree that USA could almost be renamed "News for Dummies" but that does not mean their information is inaccurate. In fact, I find it refresshingly unbiased when compared to publications like the Washington Post or New York Times.
Sure I can take myself off the grid today if I want, but how much different will my life be? Will it be better or worse, will I pay more or less for the same amount of energy? What will be my pay back period if any?
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Also, I was mistaken, it was 180,000 families not people. That number has increased 33% for each of the past 10 years. So unless the Amish have been involved in a big recruitment program I doubt they account for much of that number.
I suspect most of the people that choose to go this route enjoy some intangible benefits that can't be measured in dollars and cents. There must be a certain sense of security and satisfaction derived from this type of self sufficiency. Its one of those things that you can either relate to or not. I can definitely relate to it.
james
I don't believe the Amish use electricity at all. I believe the article was referring to those that are supplying their electricity from other sources than commercial. It does take a commitment as you will probably not be ahead financially for many years.
The Plus side:
No rolling blackouts to endure, or Enron scams.
Welcome to the Forum!
The point is that there are solutions. They have not been pursued as aggresively as they should be because they don't fit into any big corporations business model. It doesn't matter. What was once a grassroots movement made up of fringe characters has now reached a critical mass that is being adopted by the mainstream.
Wind is even less usable than solar. You have to have your wind turbine in an area that averages 9 MPH constant wind. Other than out on a farm in the plains or on government land, it is not going to be acceptable.
Wind and Solar Energy are good sources for getting off the grid. One can buy battery packs to store energy, and generators for an emegency back-up. George Noory and Art Bell's Coast to Coast website should help you out.
Rocky
The way I understand it Brazil uses both ethanol alone(much or all of it containing several percent water), and ethanol-gasoline mixes. Before ethanol can be mixed with gasoline all the water (about 4 %) present in distilled ethanol must be removed.
The real source of Brazil's self-sufficiency is the country's extraordinary success in producing more oil. After the 1970s oil shocks, when Brazil's fuel import bill soared, the government pushed Petrobras, the state-controlled oil company, to look asunder for new energy sources.
Petrobras delivered, especially at home, where the firm pioneered the technologies that make it possible to extract oil locked in sediments under the seabed in extremely deep water. In the middle 1970s Brazil struggled to produce just 180,000 barrels of oil per day while importing four times that amount. Today it produces about 2 million and is self-sufficient. Indeed, the current milestone of self-sufficiency arrives with the inauguration of Brazil's newest deep water platform, the "P50." When P50 reaches its full output later this year, that one platform will deliver more liquid to Brazil than the country's entire ethanol program.
Brazil strikes oil
We get one side of the story and now we are stuck with an ethanol mandate that is running our gas prices through the ceiling.
I think $70/barrel oil has a lot more to do with our current gas prices than the ethanol mandate. I also don't think this situation with Iran is going to be resolved anytime soon. In fact, my guess is that it will get worse. We may be the richest, most powerful nation on the planet but Iran has the ability to cripple the global economy. We spend 100s of billions of dollars every year on national defense while doing next to nothing to ensure economic security. This didn't happen overnight. Its the result of 30+ years of our leaders taking the stick your head in the sand and cross your fingers approach to dealing with our oil dependency. If you think that gas is expensive now, stand by.
The dead zone forms after fertilizers and other pollutants flowing out of the 31-state Mississippi River basin spark massive algal blooms, in the same way they accelerate the growth of cotton, corn and other crops. As the algae die, they suck almost all the oxygen from the water, forcing fish to relocate or perish.
See the links below that indicate both corn and beef are effectively fueled by oil, in addition to raping and pillaging our own land and water. Scary stuff -- you should think twice the next time you chomp down on hamburger.
http://www.harpers.org/TheOilWeEat.html
http://michaelpollan.com/article.php?id=14
A quote from the second article:
For if you follow the corn from this bunk back to the fields where it grows, you will find an 80-million-acre monoculture that consumes more chemical herbicide and fertilizer than any other crop. Keep going and you can trace the nitrogen runoff from that crop all the way down the Mississippi into the Gulf of Mexico, where it has created (if that is the right word) a 12,000-square-mile "dead zone."
But you can go farther still, and follow the fertilizer needed to grow that corn all the way to the oil fields of the Persian Gulf. No. 534 [a steer the author has purchased] started life as part of a food chain that derived all its energy from the sun; now that corn constitutes such an important link in his food chain, he is the product of an industrial system powered by fossil fuel. (And in turn, defended by the military—another uncounted cost of "cheap" food.)
I asked David Pimentel, a Cornell ecologist who specializes in agriculture and energy, if it might be possible to calculate precisely how much oil it will take to grow my steer to slaughter weight. Assuming No. 534 continues to eat 25 pounds of corn a day and reaches a weight of 1,250 pounds, he will have consumed in his lifetime roughly 284 gallons of oil. We have succeeded in industrializing the beef calf, transforming what was once a solar-powered ruminant into the very last thing we need: another fossil-fuel machine.
Not to mention the GHG the cow exhales in it's life cycle. I have cut back on beef. I sure do like a good ribeye steak now and then.
http://www.detroitnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060418/BIZ/604180322/114- 8/AUTO01
Rocky
http://biz.yahoo.com/rb/060418/autos_toyota_ethanol.html?.v=1
Seriously, the focus on corn seems a little misplaced. Yes, corn is a source of ethanol. But so too are other agricultural products.
Several companies are beginning to make ethanol out of agricultural chaffe from all production plants, corn included. This would be a win, as chaffe currently is sent to landfills.
There are many who suggest the emergence of driving economies in China and India have permanently altered the oil cycle.
They'll be scrambling to fix this mess they created and it will probably involve increased subsidies for the farmers that can no longer give their corn away.
The one big positive from the current administration's love of deficit spending is there probably will no longer be money sufficient to pay farmers not to farm.
If corn prices tank, then the land will either go to soy beans, organic farming (which has a growing market willing to pay prices that do not require subsidies), or fallow.
Rocky
Where was the government when Wards, Enron, WorldCom, etc. went bankrupt?
BTW- Milo/Maze is one of the best ethanol yielding plants and it doesn't take but 1/2 the water of corn to grow. So this Corn propaganda is hawg wash put out by the midwestern yankees that really don't know how to diversify. hell some of my relatives are in that boat, so I'm not being prejudice.
Agreed. Ethanol is not a total solution, but it is viable. There are many agricultural products that can be used. Better to have options for the farmers' product than to give them government welfare.
Wards was a planned BK and GE didn't want to save them.
Enron's management should be behind bars. I though Enron is still operating on a small capacity ? MCI Worldcom is still in buisness, and yes their management should be behind bars also. I would hope the government would help these large corporations out if they could. They all employed several thousands of employees and it's a shame.
Agreed. Ethanol is not a total solution, but it is viable. There are many agricultural products that can be used. Better to have options for the farmers' product than to give them government welfare.
My father in-law would rather have the cash from a productive crop, vs. getting government welfare. The Big Corporations like Exxon love running farms at losses for tax write-off and is a loophole in the tax code that has allowed this practice to continue. Big corporation buy up small farms and run em' not for a profit, but for a loss. This has killed small farmers like my father in-law that aretrying to make a honest living without governments help. :mad:
Rocky
Let’s look at this using a gallon of gas as a benchmark.
On a gallon of diesel/bio diesel I can go 28 miles @ 40% more efficient.
On a gallon of gas I can go 20 miles. (Benchmark)
On a gallon of E85 gas I can go 15 miles @ 25% less efficient
So under the US plan (EPA, CARB) I go from 28MPG diesel to 15MPG E85.
I’m loosing 13 miles per gallon, I’m increasing my use of oil and I’m spending more to do it.
Brilliant, absolutely brilliant.
E85, which some view as automotive fuel of the future, will soon be available at about 20 Meijer stores in Michigan.
Meijer Inc. and General Motors Corp. will announce today, with Gov. Jennifer Granholm, plans to make the ethanol-gasoline blend E85 available at Meijer filling stations.
More than 4 million flexible-fuel vehicles on the road are capable of burning E85 or gasoline or a combination of the two. However, most owners fill up with regular gasoline because of a shortage of filling stations offering the fuel.
Only five stations in Michigan sell E85, a blend of 85% ethanol and 15% gasoline, reports the National Ethanol Vehicle Coalition.
Some owners don't even realize that their vehicle is capable of running on E85.
Advocates of E85 tout the fuel as a made-in-America alternative to imported oil that also cuts dirty tailpipe emissions, boosts performance and helps farmers. Ethanol is a grain alcohol produced from crops like corn and soy.
Michigan is one of the nation's leading producers of corn, growing more than 257 million bushels a year.
The state has one ethanol plant in Caro that makes 45 million gallons a year, but four plants are due within two years. They will produce more than 200 million gallons of ethanol combined annually.
Meijer will work with GM and CleanFuel USA, which manufactures E85 fueling equipment, to identify which stores will sell E85. The trio is focusing on stores in Jackson, Lansing, Grand Rapids, Warren, Pontiac, Detroit, Rochester and Brighton.
"We're hoping to have several sites open by the end of 2006," Meijer spokeswoman Judith Clark said.
Detroit's automakers, battling to catch their Japanese competitors in selling hybrid gas-electric vehicles, are betting on ethanol to help boost their image. GM, which has more than 1.5 million flexible-fuel vehicles on the road, began running television and newspaper ads this year touting E85. GM also now identifies E85 vehicles with yellow fuel caps.
All passenger vehicles sold in the United States can use E10, a blend of 90% gasoline and 10% ethanol that is widely available.
Critics of E85 say it costs more to use. E85 often costs less at the pump than gas, but E85-powered vehicles typically get between 5% to 10% lower fuel mileage than cars that run on conventional gasoline.
My brother works for Meijer, and I wished we had some stores down here in West Texas to compete against Walley World.
Rocky
I doubt they would all go bankrupt. Afterall the money we spend on food is hardly discretionary spending. I'm sure quite a few of the less efficient farms would go under and what would be left is the large corporate farms that have the economies of scale to produce their crops at the lowest cost. That is the way it is supposed to work. The government doesn't subsidize the Mom & Pop stores that are put out of business by WalMart, Target, et al. That is probably a better analogy than using Wards or Enron. The family farm represents the Mom & Pops and ADM is Walmart. The government should not use tax dollars to perpetuate inefficiency. In the long run everyone suffers through this tampering with the economy. I'm not totally unsympathetic to the small farmer that can no longer make a living but his situation is not unique in our society. He deserves no greater consideration than anyone else that has had to change careers. At some point people need to be re-taught the lesson that they are responsible for taking care of themselves and to stop whining for government aid.