I can agree with you, but I also don't want any foreign made products in my country to make us even. You want to sell it here, you better make it here. I'm tired of my government allowing our standard of living to go down because we have to compete with country's that are still living like they were 1,000 years ago. Either you advance by yourself, or tough luck. No foreign aid, no help. I don't want to subsidize their economy's Keep em' poor. :mad:
See it works both ways. Some want capatalism because it benefits them at others expenses. :sick:
It sounds like you aren't a big believer in free trade. In any system there will always be winners and losers. You have to try and determine the net effect. Most economists believe that free trade will lead to global economic growth.
Let's stick with farming. The subsidies that the US government and other European governments give to their farmers has an extremely negative impact on farmers from developing countries. So when it comes to selling crops on the world market our policies are the opposite of foreign aid.
Critics of E85 say it costs more to use. E85 often costs less at the pump than gas, but E85-powered vehicles typically get between 5% to 10% lower fuel mileage than cars that run on conventional gasoline.
According to EPA estimates its from 20%-33% lower fuel efficiency.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Don't forget our friends to the North. The logging subsidies in Canada killed our logging industry. We still import more oil from Canada than any other country.
By the way only one station in California sells E85. Last time I checked it was $3.85 per gallon. You gotta really want to be green. That would be equivalent to $5 per gallon unleaded regular.
I agree completely. I'd like to see governments curtail their meddling in global trade and let the free market work. Unfortunately politics tends to get in the way.
The problem in all the countries is an (wholly justified otherwise) effort to allow rural people signficant representation.
Ironically, while rural legislators tend to be against any sort of entitlements for their urban counterparts, they always seem to have an argument for keeping the gravy train rolling for them.
I wish I could be more optimistic than you, but facts show otherwise.
SAN ANTONIO SUCHITEPEQUEZ, Guatemala (Reuters) - At the Palo Gordo refinery two hours' drive south of Guatemala City, a Brazilian-designed ethanol processing plant hums next to decades-old machinery turning freshly cut cane into sugar.
The plant is part of a new push across Central America to reduce the region's reliance on expensive imported oil by following the example of Brazil, Latin America's alternative energy powerhouse.
I'm sure quite a few of the less efficient farms would go under and what would be left is the large corporate farms that have the economies of scale to produce their crops at the lowest cost. Actually it's the opposite. The large corporate farms suck up nearly all of the subsidies while driving down prices. The smaller farms are better able to diversify and plant according to market conditions, in addition they are generally much better environmental stewards, which is something worth paying for.
Your assumption of I not liking free trade is a correct one pal. I'm very ANTI-FREE TRADE, unless it's with nations that have similiar standards of living that keeps the playing field equal. Canada, Norway, Switzerland, etc are okay to trade with because they have human rights and have good economy's. China basically told President Bush yesterday that they aren't going to correct the problems of Trade and Trade Deficit. Like I couldn't see that coming. :mad:
I'm not quite sure what your point is. Are you an advocate of eliminating federal subsidies because they primarily benefit the large, corporate farm? If so then we are in agreement. If these subsidies went away the corporate farm would still be the only one that could make a profit, albeit their profit margin differential from pre-subsidy days compared to post subsidy days would be much larger than the family farmer that was barely breaking even. The ideas of planting according to market conditions and being a better steward of the environment is a bunch of Willie Nelson BS. If the family farmer doesn't apply as much nitrogen to his fields its only because he can't afford to.
I respect your opinion. A lot of people seem to be opposed to free trade these days, Lou Dobbs to name one. IMO, protectionism is a lot like labor unions. It benefits one group at the expense of the other.
The HUGE amount of farmland we'll need to grow sugar beets and corn just to make all that ethanol. Just the energy consumption alone to grow the large fields of sugar beets and corn would be breathtaking, too. :surprise:
:)As Toyota is leading in hybrid cars so will GM be leading in fuel flex vehicles. As gas price soar high people will demand for alternative fuel, just like the last time gas price rose after Hurricane Katrina. If America pushes for fuel flex vehicles this could help GM turn around because GM gas guzzling vehicles would now be using cheaper and cleaner fuel. Also the Big SUV and big trucks would be back and even better.
Critics of E85 say it costs more to use. E85 often costs less at the pump than gas, but E85-powered vehicles typically get between 5% to 10% lower fuel mileage than cars that run on conventional gasoline.
According to EPA estimates its from 20%-33% lower fuel efficiency.
Well according to my estimates on my cousins new altima I get about 20-33% less than what the epa claims with gas.
So is this epa bs numbers for gas vs real numbers for ethanol?
I would love to see a comparision done here at edmunds. Take a car and drive it on both types of fuels for a few weeks for each fuel and report the actually mpg .
The HUGE amount of farmland we'll need to grow sugar beets and corn just to make all that ethanol. Just the energy consumption alone to grow the large fields of sugar beets and corn would be breathtaking, too.
we could use switchgrass it will give us 341% vs 21% of corn
acording to these guys "Test plots of switchgrass at Auburn University have produced up to 15 tons of dry biomass per acre, and five- year yields average 11.5 tons—enough to make 1,150 gallons of ethanol per acre each year."
Not only that but they are saying it will grow almost anywhere , an example was over farmed fields in alabama . Imagine in new jersey driving down the turn pike and parkway and seeing instead of normal grass fields of switchgrass which can then be collected and refined for gass.
"And it's a hardy, adaptable perennial, so once it's established in a field, it can be harvested as a cash crop, either annually or semiannually, for 10 years or more before replanting is needed. "
10 years without replanting is very nice. Much better than corn that needs to be rotated around your fields each year so the soil can bounce back.
""Producing ethanol from corn requires almost as much energy to produce as it yields," he explains, "while ethanol from switchgrass can produce about five times more energy than you put in. When you factor in the energy required to make tractors, transport farm equipment, plant and harvest, and so on, the net energy output of switchgrass is about 20 times better than corn's." Switchgrass also does a far better job of protecting soil, virtually eliminating erosion. And it removes considerably more CO2 from the air, packing it away in soils and roots."
1150 gallons a year per acre . Earlier in this thread someone said we had 362m acres of farm land in this country. That would produce 416.3 billion gallons a year .
Do we need anywhere near 416.3 billion gallons a year ? I doubt it . Not only that but we don't have to use all our farmland for this . We can grow switchgrass in other areas that wont support alot of other things . Farmers can use this inbetween the years of corn and other harsh crops . It can also be planted near rivers and other water sources to absorb the run off from toxic fertilizer and other things .
e85 and one day e100 is the smart way to the future . We just have to do it the right way from the start. Skip over corn and go right to switchgrass
Figure at most 10% of the farmland can be devoted to fuel (we gotta eat) and you're at 41.6 billion.
I'm not well versed in switchgrass, but corn definitely isn't the solution.
You can use alot more than that . Most of our farm land isn't being used and some of its being used to grow crops like corn that are just stored as we have no need for it .
But lets say your right , we use 10% of our land and get 41.6billion gallons . That is 1/3rd the amount of gas we use. That means right there we cut off our dependance on other countrys by a third .
Now lets take it further. we use 20% of our land we are not at 83.2b . Not bad , not bad at all. Like I said plant switch grass in other areas . You don't have to plant it on traditional farm land . You can plant it on the side of highways . You can plant it by the river banks and near water wells by your other crops . You can plant it on the fields that you just grew corn on . Leave it there for 4 or 5 years , you will grow a crop that is indemand and replenish the soil quicker .
Idealy we would only need 1/3rd or so of our crop land to power our country . However as i've said above , switchgrass can be grown in areas where other crops can't be grown so in reality we may one day not even need to use farm land for this . We can use land that would normaly go to waste for our fuel
As the page I sent you to states , you have alot less over head on switchgrass , you don't need to plant it each year (this gets rid of seed cost and fertilizer cost along with hands to plant it and fertilize it and the equipment costs) you just need to harvest it a few times a year and keep it watered.
Also we can continue to combined hybrid tech with e85. That way on short trips to the store we can run on electric and when we hit hte highways to go on trips we can burn ethanol which is a much cleaner burning fuel and send money to the midwest instead of to the middle east .
Toshiba has a quick charge battery coming out , which I believe recharges 90% of its capacity in 1minute. We can use this + the braking recharging + e85 to get out from under other countrys .
As a matter of fact , I believe if we got someone to create a 10 year plan that would have full goverment backing we could have the capacity to produce the needed e85 and the ability to transport it all over the country and only ever need to import oil from canada and even then at a reduced rate than what we import now .
I think many on this forum are short sighted. Hybrids are only a small part of the answer and while full battery cars may one day work . They wont be viable untill they either build very cheap (Sub 10k ) commuiting cars for just driving the 20m to work each day , or they find a way to get 300mp charge . Untill that day we can use e85 and hybrid tech to help this country. Perhaps in doing so we can get our big 3 in a better postion and get the midwest in a better position .
I think many on this forum are short sighted. Hybrids are only a small part of the answer and while full battery cars may one day work . They wont be viable untill they either build very cheap (Sub 10k ) commuiting cars for just driving the 20m to work each day , or they find a way to get 300mp charge . Untill that day we can use e85 and hybrid tech to help this country. Perhaps in doing so we can get our big 3 in a better postion and get the midwest in a better position .
Could our electrical grid handle the extra demand of recharging everyone's car? Seems every summer you here of brown outs from air condition usage, I can't imagine the eletrical load required for powering cars as well.
I agree that sending your money to the midwest is better than sending it to the Middle East but why not keep it in your pocket? Whether its switchgrass, corn, sugar, beets, etc., it is all just stored solar energy. Why should we be paying anyone for the sun's rays?
If your talking about a 10 year plan I fully believe that by then the cost of electricity generated by photo-voltaic cells will be in the 10 cent per kilowatt-hour range. An electric vehicle can travel 3 miles per kWh. That's just over 3 cents per mile and that price will only go down over time. There's no way that an ethanol powered vehicle will ever come close to that. In 10 years we may not have batteries that can power a car for 300 miles but I suspect that 150 miles isn't out of the question and if it can charge in under 10 minutes from your home generated electricity the tradeoff is more than worth it.
The reason that so many farmers are struggling is that our farming industry is bloated as a result of federal subsidies. We need to learn from past mistakes and not compound the problem.
IMO, if we are talking about a long term solution why not go straight to our ultimate destination, electric vehicles, rather than take this ethanol detour.
With more and more people moving out of cities and into more rural areas commutes are getting much longer on average than they used to. A 150 mile range on an electric car is not going to cut it. Unless someone can solve that issue, in a cost effective matter, electric cars are never going to be a viable option for 90% of the drivers out there.
My guess is that the typical driver would require about 15 kWh or electricity per day to power his vehicle. If everyone suddenly switched over to an EV I'm sure that the grid could not handle it. Why not build a home solar system that produces this electricity. Right now to generate this much electricity the system would probably cost you around $20k. If you look at the average yearly cost over the 30 year lifetime of these PV panels that still comes out to less than you pay for gas or ethanol and that doesn't even take into account the current state and federal subsidies being offered for these systems. By most estimates, within 10 years, the cost of these solar systems should be half what it is today. Then it really becomes a no-brainer.
Well according to my estimates on my cousins new altima I get about 20-33% less than what the epa claims with gas.
Well going by my 5 year old 135K mile Elantra I am getting about 5% or more than the EPA estimates. So what?
Secondly if your going to complain about someone elses bs don't go around about your estimates on someone elses car.
Finally if the EPA estimates are off with what a car gets with gas then they would be as off with what the same car gets with E85 (unless you want to tell me they perform different tests).
So it stands that E-85 will produce 20-33% less mileage than gas.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
we could have the capacity to produce the needed e85 and the ability to transport it all over the country
I appreciate your enthusiasm for ethanol. It also looks like Switchgrass is a better crop than corn for producing ethanol. The biggest problem still exists. Getting it from the production area to the states where it is needed. It is difficult to store & transport. It is highly volatile making transportation even riskier. A lot of the high price of gas today is refiners trying to get the 10% ethanol mandated by the flawed energy bill. The use of ethanol should be localized in the area of production.
Secondly, it is not a good fuel for tractors, trucks and heavy equipment used to farm. It is an alternate source of energy, that is all that I can say good about it. So far it is nothing but a government mandated boondoggle that is getting a few mega ag corporations rich. It will not help the little farmer at all. I still own a farm in MN and I can tell you that government programs did nothing to help me make a living at farming. In fact the government in their ineptitude drove me out of farming in 1979. Right now a neighbor farms it and it barely pays the taxes.
According to the Bureau of Transportation Statistics the average driver travels 39 miles each day. I've never heard of anyone that had over a 150 mile commute, maybe roundtrip. In an EV society parking lots will have charging stations. So while you're at work your battery could be re-charging. On the very rare occasion that you have a one way trip that excedes the battery's charge you will be required to stop for a relatively short period to recharge. My guess is that the number of times that you will actually have to do this will be far less than the number of trips people currently make to a gas station. Internal combustion engines are incapable of achieving more than 35-40% efficiency. Electric motors are more than 90% efficient. For that reason alone EVs are obviously the future. I just hope we can bypass the ethanol boondoggle on our way there.
But lets say your right , we use 10% of our land and get 41.6billion gallons . That is 1/3rd the amount of gas we use. That means right there we cut off our dependance on other countrys by a third .
A few corrections 41.6 Billion gallons would be slightly less than 30% and you would need about 20% of the farmland to get that. Now considering that Ethanol contains less energy that the same amount of gas your 41.6 billion gallons would replace only 36.7 billion gallons of oil, or slightly more than 20% of what we currently use.
Ideally we would only need 1/3rd or so of our crop land to power our country .
That would be to much cropland to use. How are people going to eat?
Toshiba has a quick charge battery coming out , which I believe recharges 90% of its capacity in 1minute. We can use this + the braking recharging + e85 to get out from under other countrys .
I think its 5 minutes but I could be wrong. But the issue with it is that regardless of how fast it is capable of recharging a battery can only recharge as fast as its power source can supply the energy.
I think many on this forum are short sighted.
Short sightedness works in many ways. E85 is only a temporary fix to a very long term problem. Even with hybrids is not viable on a very large scale or for the long term. Not to mention that currently it is not even economically viable. Until E85 drops below 80% of the price of gas any one using it is throwing money away on a pie in the sky dream. As long as E85 is at least 75% the price of gas most people using it are wasting money.
Use it if you must, but don't put all your eggs in that basket, the handle isn't very good.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I don't think that flex fuel cars will save GM. As gas prices increase Hybrids become more and more economically feasible. As long as E85 stays more than 75% of the price of gas gas it will not be economically feasible.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Lets be honest, how many people have a 160 mile commute?
Certainly most don't, but I have in the past (for a few months until our house was ready to move closer to a new job). Also, a great deal of people drive for work. Many sales people log 30-50k per year easily. My wife has a company car and drives at least 30k per year. Now if recharging stations could recharge a batter in 10 minutes, it probably wouldn't be much of an issue.
electric cars are never going to be a viable option for 90% of the drivers out there.
I think you have your percentage backward. I think that 90% of the car owners drive less than 150 per day. CA arguably the most mobile state, has an average driver commute of 32 miles each day. Also if we were to move into EVs in large numbers, employers would be wise to provide plug-ins while you work. Not many people commute by car over 150 miles each way. If they do they are crazy, or just love to drive.
I still think we are a ways from practical batteries for electric vehicles. I like the idea better than all the complexity in todays hybrids.
My guess is that somewhere down the line someone will come up with a good electric commuter car and a solar system that will charge a capacitor or battery at the persons home that the car can plug into and recharge from. If they can do that at a cost efficient price it will take off.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Welcome to the forum. I do hope you are not serious. If so I hope you live a long way from any neighbors. distilling alcohol is not a simple process. It is very dangerous, plus you would probably get a visit from the ATF as soon as you set up a still in your back yard. It is illegal to produce alcohol without a license.
It is illegal to produce alcohol without a license.
Federal law allows for individuals to make a certain amount of their own alcohol for personal use, you just cannot sell it. But I do think there are strong restrictions of distilling it, which is what you need to do for fuel.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Also, my wife commutes to school 3 days a week 75 miles away. She's been doing this for the last 2 years...thank god it's almost over.
Also, how does grid-lock play into that? If someone's commute is only 15 miles one way, but it takes 45 minutes to an hour to travel that because of rush-hour traffic.
However, even using switchblade grass may not be the best solution.
I've been reading about the work of a company called GreenFuel Technologies that is working on how to grow oil-laden algae on a truly huge scale. Imagine feeding the exhaust from coal-fired or natural gas-fired powerplants to "feed" vertical tanks of oil-laden algae; because the algae grows extremely fast under these conditions, a 200-acre farm of these tanks fed by the exhaust of a coal-fired powerplant nearby could make something like 15 million gallons of biodiesel fuel/heating oil annually! :surprise: And best of all, the "waste" from the processing of the algae could be processed into very large amounts of ethanol, too.
In short, such a facility offer these advantages: 1) large-scale biodiesel/heating oil production; 2) large-scale biomass available for ethanol production; and 3) because the algae substantially absorbs the CO2 and NOx gases from the coal-fired powerplant it also dramatically reduces pollutants far below even Kyoto Protocol guidelines. :shades:
That is the beauty of both electric and hybrid vehicles. When you are parked on the Interstate you are not using any energy. Unlike a car that is idling along. You will use less electricity driving 10 mph than 60 mph. I believe that last version of the GM EV1 had a range of 75-130 miles depending on the speed. It was computer controlled to go up to 80 MPH. It cost the tax payers and GM about a billion a piece in R&D. Now they are all crushed and recycled into Lucky Lager beer cans.
I like the idea better than all the complexity in todays hybrids.
The idea of multiple drive systems, i.e. hybrids, is inherently flawed from an engineering perspective. Not only does it add to the complexity it adds to the manufacturing and maintenance costs and unless they are both operationg simultaneously it adds dead weight to the vehicle. Recapturing kinetic energy through regenerative braking is a good idea that almost dictates you have an electric means of storing it. I guess you could recapture this energy in a more mechanical way like a flywheel but that is not as clean a solution.
One of the obstacles EVs face is public perception that they are nothing more than street legal golf carts. While that certainly can be the case it doesn't necessarily have to be. The electric motor will create the potential for performance that is unachievable in an ICE vehicle.
The Mercedes is a good looking car that not only passes regulations its a good car for the enviroment that will sell so now the american people wont have to look to honda and toyota bad styling they can skip them and go a few steps up in the price ans styling latter and purchase a mercedes
A company Xcelplus has the Flextek conversion system to convert your car to E85. It also comes with a treatment that will improve your fuel economy by 6%-17% so you can regain some of the lost MPG associated with E85. This treatment was tested by the Department of Energy and the results can be viewed on the website. It also comes with a switch that can be run inside the car so you can change between gas and Alcohol. The reason I bring this up is I have used their Engine treatment in my Dodge truck and saw an increase in gas milage from 11 MPG in the city to almost 13 MPG so I have experienced it first hand. Check it out as I believe that E85 will come down in price once again and with all the Local governments supporting it I think E85 will be huge in the near future. www.Xcelplus.com
A company Xcelplus has the Flextek conversion system to convert your car to E85.
I would not advise doing such a thing as it most likely will void your warranty.
It also comes with a treatment that will improve your fuel economy by 6%-17% so you can regain some of the lost MPG associated with E85.
Two issues here, first is that I seriously doubt the treatment will increase your mileage. Secondly, even if it did you still end up losing a lot in mileage.
Even in the 21st Century people still sell snake oil.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
If something appears to come down in price because of government support it is only an illusion. You are making up the discount in your tax bill.
Things can come down as it begins to be produced in larger quanitys . That is the way this country works.
The more they produce the cheaper it will become , the more they refine the process of creating the fuel the cheaper it will become .
Just switching to switchgrass would bring huge price savings .
The crop is good for 10+ years , that means no expensive seeds , no expensive plowing and tilling each year and no expensive fertilizer . 1 acre worth can produce over 1k barrels of fuel a year . It can also be grown in areas that other crops can't be grown in and it replenishes the soil so that in the future other crops can be grown.
Using the waste heat and emissions from a powerplant to produce biodiesel and ethanol. And at the same time, reducing the pollution emitted from the smokestack.
Could our electrical grid handle the extra demand of recharging everyone's car? Seems every summer you here of brown outs from air condition usage, I can't imagine the eletrical load required for powering cars as well.
In the winter sure , but in the summer I doubt it .
The one reason why electrical cars wont work is because americans like to drive on vacation . Sure I can use an electric car to go get grocerys and to go to the mall , but how about in the summer when I go down the shore or when I drive to florida for my yearly vactation. These cars simply wont do the trip or i'd have to currently stop every 60m or so adding alot of time to an already long drive in a car that would most likely not fit my 4 friends and I plus luggage.
I liked your post Thank you
I agree that sending your money to the midwest is better than sending it to the Middle East but why not keep it in your pocket? Whether its switchgrass, corn, sugar, beets, etc., it is all just stored solar energy. Why should we be paying anyone for the sun's rays?
Why pay the midwest for our food ? I can grow crops and raise animals in my back yard. The reason is , it takes time nad money to do and its just easier to buy from someone who does it for a living . You have to grow the switch grass , harvest it , send it to be refined or refine it on your own. Not exactly easy and its dangrous . I wouldn't want big vats of grain liquer in my back yard .
In 10 years we may not have batteries that can power a car for 300 miles but I suspect that 150 miles isn't out of the question and if it can charge in under 10 minutes from your home generated electricity the tradeoff is more than worth it.
But that wont work for the majority of users . As I said above what good is a 150m car if I want to drive from jersey to florida . I'm going to have stop twice as much as I do with my current end of the road jeep cherokee 94. Not only that but I'm sure the electric car that gets 150m wont be as big as my jeep.
Now how about an electric car / e85 car where it will switch to gas on the highway or when the charge is running low and the spining engine and breaking would recharge the battery . That is the way to go and I can see those coming in the next 10 to 15 years . But that is 10 to 15 years from now , what do we do later this year if gas hits 80+ a barrel ? The more expensive gas gets (And face it , gas isn't going to go down on the whole over the next few years ) the more efficent e85 will be . Just like hybrids .
So why not build a e85/hybrid Perhaps in 10 years we will only need to import oil from canada instead of from middle eastern countrys .
IMO, if we are talking about a long term solution why not go straight to our ultimate destination, electric vehicles, rather than take this ethanol detour. Because that long term solution will most likely take a long term to get working to where people will actually support it .
e85 is simple to support. Buy a flex fuel car and when flex fuel , fuel is aviable simply fill up at your gas station , you get slightly less milleage but you wont need an expensive mod to your house to power it .
By most estimates, within 10 years, the cost of these solar systems should be half what it is today. Then it really becomes a no-brainer.
Its expensive . I would not mind solar powering but where am I going to get 20k for a car and 20k for solar set up to charge the car . Also how many cars will my house be able to charge from solar panels ?
When my house was built in the 1930s they didn't build it with the thought of solar energy , the roofs are not slanted towards where we get the most sun over the day. So for me it wont be viable .
Sure solar sounds great. However its not going to be that easy in practice .
Secondly if your going to complain about someone elses bs don't go around about your estimates on someone elses car. Why not , if they can post bs , So can I . IF you don't like it then stop posting bs and I will stop posting bs .
The biggest problem still exists. Getting it from the production area to the states where it is needed. It is difficult to store & transport
Thats whats great about switch grass , it can be grown almost anywhere . That means jersey , new york , NC , SC and most of the other states on the easter seaboard can grow it , the midwest should be fine growing it and some states in west should be fine also .
It doesn't just have to be grown on crop land . As I said you can grow it on the side of the road . We have large strips of highways in this country that has nothign but grass next to it . Grow switch grass , harvest it a couple a times a year and there you go .
Secondly, it is not a good fuel for tractors, trucks and heavy equipment used to farm thats fine and diesel can be used for this .
In fact the government in their ineptitude drove me out of farming in 1979. Right now a neighbor farms it and it barely pays the taxes. If you have a farm just sitting there you should be hoping for e85 , you can switch your farm to switchgrass that requires very little work and harvest it and sell it . I'm sure you'd make more than whatever your currently farming there .
In an EV society parking lots will have charging stations. So while you're at work your battery could be re-charging. On the very rare occasion that you have a one way trip that excedes the battery's charge you will be required to stop for a relatively short period to recharge
Some people travel far often. In the summer time I travel 200-300m each weekend one way to vist friends or go down the shore. As i've said , its fine for heading to work or the store , but its not going to help me when I take long trips. Some people never do , some people take trips often.
A few corrections 41.6 Billion gallons would be slightly less than 30% and you would need about 20% of the farmland to get that. Now considering that Ethanol contains less energy that the same amount of gas your 41.6 billion gallons would replace only 36.7 billion gallons of oil, or slightly more than 20% of what we currently use.
Of course your assuming that engines produced will only get what the epa"claims" flex fuel engiens are getting. Your ignoring the fact that about a 100 years of refiment have gone into gass engines and e85 has not seen anywhere near that amount of investment.
Your also assuming that the refining process will not improve and it wont take less engery to produce more energy .
And your ignoring the fact that traditional farm land isn't hte only land that has to be used
That would be to much cropland to use. How are people going to eat? how do we eat now when the majority of corn is turned into syrups for fruit drinks and the majority of grain is stored.
You seem to not understand that there is more food produced here than we eat . Not to mention you skim over the fact that i've mentioned we wouldn't even need to use traditional crop land to do this . We can use land that wont grow anything else .
I think its 5 minutes but I could be wrong. But the issue with it is that regardless of how fast it is capable of recharging a battery can only recharge as fast as its power source can supply the energy.
Of course , but adding this battery into a e85 hybrid or gas hybrids would increase mpg . The benfit of e85 is that with one barrel of cruded you can created almost 3 and a half barrels of e85 . Thus reducing our dependance. This is with out factoring in the money saved by switchgrass that doesn't require the expensive seeds and fertilzer , doesn't need the earth tilled and roated each year .
Short sightedness works in many ways. E85 is only a temporary fix to a very long term problem. Even with hybrids is not viable on a very large scale or for the long term. Not to mention that currently it is not even economically viable. Until E85 drops below 80% of the price of gas any one using it is throwing money away on a pie in the sky dream. As long as E85 is at least 75% the price of gas most people using it are wasting money.
Once again you have a limited view on the situation. Your thinking corn, I'm thinking switchgrass . Switchgrass will be an ecnomic boon for us . Sure its not going to fix the gas problems 200 years from now . But it will push those problems out to 200 years from now instead of 50 years . That is what this tech is here for . Thats what hybrids , diesel and e85 is meant to do , push the major problems out as far as possible so that we can develop the tech we need to push those things away .
You keep claiming numbers and your using the same numbers over and over again.
Please tell me what the average price of e85 is now and the average price of gass.
Tell me when gas hits 80 a barrel what the average prices will be. You seem to think that gas prices are going to stay what they are , or lower in price, the prices are just going to go up and if we can make 1 barrel stretch into 3 and a half barrels that is a pretty damn good start to solving the energy problem.
Use it if you must, but don't put all your eggs in that basket, the handle isn't very good.
What basket to you recommend ? Gas ? Solar power ? Pluging it into the wall.
The last two would be great , to bad they aren't ready for primetime and most likely wont be for a very long time. Even if its just 10 years from solar power / charging stations . that is still 10 years of gas price increases that I would rather avoid or reduce
Comments
See it works both ways.
Rocky
Let's stick with farming. The subsidies that the US government and other European governments give to their farmers has an extremely negative impact on farmers from developing countries. So when it comes to selling crops on the world market our policies are the opposite of foreign aid.
According to EPA estimates its from 20%-33% lower fuel efficiency.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Japan by far has the highest Ag subsidies. Korea is way up there too.
Ag subsidies are wrong in the West. They are wrong in the East.
By the way only one station in California sells E85. Last time I checked it was $3.85 per gallon. You gotta really want to be green. That would be equivalent to $5 per gallon unleaded regular.
The problem in all the countries is an (wholly justified otherwise) effort to allow rural people signficant representation.
Ironically, while rural legislators tend to be against any sort of entitlements for their urban counterparts, they always seem to have an argument for keeping the gravy train rolling for them.
I wish I could be more optimistic than you, but facts show otherwise.
The plant is part of a new push across Central America to reduce the region's reliance on expensive imported oil by following the example of Brazil, Latin America's alternative energy powerhouse.
...
http://tinyurl.com/kh4ru
Actually it's the opposite. The large corporate farms suck up nearly all of the subsidies while driving down prices. The smaller farms are better able to diversify and plant according to market conditions, in addition they are generally much better environmental stewards, which is something worth paying for.
Your assumption of I not liking free trade is a correct one pal. I'm very ANTI-FREE TRADE, unless it's with nations that have similiar standards of living that keeps the playing field equal. Canada, Norway, Switzerland, etc are okay to trade with because they have human rights and have good economy's. China basically told President Bush yesterday that they aren't going to correct the problems of Trade and Trade Deficit. Like I couldn't see that coming. :mad:
Rocky
If Lou Dobbs ran for president, I would vote for him. I've never once have ever disagreed with the man.
I'm yet to say that about democrats or republicans. I like former Senator John Edwards alot. I disagree with him on some issues.
Rocky
According to EPA estimates its from 20%-33% lower fuel efficiency.
Well according to my estimates on my cousins new altima I get about 20-33% less than what the epa claims with gas.
So is this epa bs numbers for gas vs real numbers for ethanol?
I would love to see a comparision done here at edmunds. Take a car and drive it on both types of fuels for a few weeks for each fuel and report the actually mpg .
we could use switchgrass it will give us 341% vs 21% of corn
http://bioenergy.ornl.gov/papers/misc/switgrs.html
acording to these guys
"Test plots of switchgrass at Auburn University have produced up to 15 tons of dry biomass per acre, and five- year yields average 11.5 tons—enough to make 1,150 gallons of ethanol per acre each year."
Not only that but they are saying it will grow almost anywhere , an example was over farmed fields in alabama . Imagine in new jersey driving down the turn pike and parkway and seeing instead of normal grass fields of switchgrass which can then be collected and refined for gass.
"And it's a hardy, adaptable perennial, so once it's established in a field, it can be harvested as a cash crop, either annually or semiannually, for 10 years or more before replanting is needed. "
10 years without replanting is very nice. Much better than corn that needs to be rotated around your fields each year so the soil can bounce back.
""Producing ethanol from corn requires almost as much energy to produce as it yields," he explains, "while ethanol from switchgrass can produce about five times more energy than you put in. When you factor in the energy required to make tractors, transport farm equipment, plant and harvest, and so on, the net energy output of switchgrass is about 20 times better than corn's." Switchgrass also does a far better job of protecting soil, virtually eliminating erosion. And it removes considerably more CO2 from the air, packing it away in soils and roots."
1150 gallons a year per acre . Earlier in this thread someone said we had 362m acres of farm land in this country. That would produce 416.3 billion gallons a year .
Do we need anywhere near 416.3 billion gallons a year ? I doubt it . Not only that but we don't have to use all our farmland for this . We can grow switchgrass in other areas that wont support alot of other things . Farmers can use this inbetween the years of corn and other harsh crops . It can also be planted near rivers and other water sources to absorb the run off from toxic fertilizer and other things .
e85 and one day e100 is the smart way to the future . We just have to do it the right way from the start. Skip over corn and go right to switchgrass
I'm not well versed in switchgrass, but corn definitely isn't the solution.
I'm not well versed in switchgrass, but corn definitely isn't the solution.
You can use alot more than that . Most of our farm land isn't being used and some of its being used to grow crops like corn that are just stored as we have no need for it .
But lets say your right , we use 10% of our land and get 41.6billion gallons . That is 1/3rd the amount of gas we use. That means right there we cut off our dependance on other countrys by a third .
Now lets take it further. we use 20% of our land we are not at 83.2b . Not bad , not bad at all. Like I said plant switch grass in other areas . You don't have to plant it on traditional farm land . You can plant it on the side of highways . You can plant it by the river banks and near water wells by your other crops . You can plant it on the fields that you just grew corn on . Leave it there for 4 or 5 years , you will grow a crop that is indemand and replenish the soil quicker .
Idealy we would only need 1/3rd or so of our crop land to power our country . However as i've said above , switchgrass can be grown in areas where other crops can't be grown so in reality we may one day not even need to use farm land for this . We can use land that would normaly go to waste for our fuel
As the page I sent you to states , you have alot less over head on switchgrass , you don't need to plant it each year (this gets rid of seed cost and fertilizer cost along with hands to plant it and fertilize it and the equipment costs) you just need to harvest it a few times a year and keep it watered.
Also we can continue to combined hybrid tech with e85. That way on short trips to the store we can run on electric and when we hit hte highways to go on trips we can burn ethanol which is a much cleaner burning fuel and send money to the midwest instead of to the middle east .
Toshiba has a quick charge battery coming out , which I believe recharges 90% of its capacity in 1minute. We can use this + the braking recharging + e85 to get out from under other countrys .
As a matter of fact , I believe if we got someone to create a 10 year plan that would have full goverment backing we could have the capacity to produce the needed e85 and the ability to transport it all over the country and only ever need to import oil from canada and even then at a reduced rate than what we import now .
I think many on this forum are short sighted. Hybrids are only a small part of the answer and while full battery cars may one day work . They wont be viable untill they either build very cheap (Sub 10k ) commuiting cars for just driving the 20m to work each day , or they find a way to get 300mp charge . Untill that day we can use e85 and hybrid tech to help this country. Perhaps in doing so we can get our big 3 in a better postion and get the midwest in a better position .
Could our electrical grid handle the extra demand of recharging everyone's car? Seems every summer you here of brown outs from air condition usage, I can't imagine the eletrical load required for powering cars as well.
I agree that sending your money to the midwest is better than sending it to the Middle East but why not keep it in your pocket? Whether its switchgrass, corn, sugar, beets, etc., it is all just stored solar energy. Why should we be paying anyone for the sun's rays?
If your talking about a 10 year plan I fully believe that by then the cost of electricity generated by photo-voltaic cells will be in the 10 cent per kilowatt-hour range. An electric vehicle can travel 3 miles per kWh. That's just over 3 cents per mile and that price will only go down over time. There's no way that an ethanol powered vehicle will ever come close to that. In 10 years we may not have batteries that can power a car for 300 miles but I suspect that 150 miles isn't out of the question and if it can charge in under 10 minutes from your home generated electricity the tradeoff is more than worth it.
The reason that so many farmers are struggling is that our farming industry is bloated as a result of federal subsidies. We need to learn from past mistakes and not compound the problem.
IMO, if we are talking about a long term solution why not go straight to our ultimate destination, electric vehicles, rather than take this ethanol detour.
Well going by my 5 year old 135K mile Elantra I am getting about 5% or more than the EPA estimates. So what?
Secondly if your going to complain about someone elses bs don't go around about your estimates on someone elses car.
Finally if the EPA estimates are off with what a car gets with gas then they would be as off with what the same car gets with E85 (unless you want to tell me they perform different tests).
So it stands that E-85 will produce 20-33% less mileage than gas.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I appreciate your enthusiasm for ethanol. It also looks like Switchgrass is a better crop than corn for producing ethanol. The biggest problem still exists. Getting it from the production area to the states where it is needed. It is difficult to store & transport. It is highly volatile making transportation even riskier. A lot of the high price of gas today is refiners trying to get the 10% ethanol mandated by the flawed energy bill. The use of ethanol should be localized in the area of production.
Secondly, it is not a good fuel for tractors, trucks and heavy equipment used to farm. It is an alternate source of energy, that is all that I can say good about it. So far it is nothing but a government mandated boondoggle that is getting a few mega ag corporations rich. It will not help the little farmer at all. I still own a farm in MN and I can tell you that government programs did nothing to help me make a living at farming. In fact the government in their ineptitude drove me out of farming in 1979. Right now a neighbor farms it and it barely pays the taxes.
A few corrections 41.6 Billion gallons would be slightly less than 30% and you would need about 20% of the farmland to get that. Now considering that Ethanol contains less energy that the same amount of gas your 41.6 billion gallons would replace only 36.7 billion gallons of oil, or slightly more than 20% of what we currently use.
Ideally we would only need 1/3rd or so of our crop land to power our country .
That would be to much cropland to use. How are people going to eat?
Toshiba has a quick charge battery coming out , which I believe recharges 90% of its capacity in 1minute. We can use this + the braking recharging + e85 to get out from under other countrys .
I think its 5 minutes but I could be wrong. But the issue with it is that regardless of how fast it is capable of recharging a battery can only recharge as fast as its power source can supply the energy.
I think many on this forum are short sighted.
Short sightedness works in many ways. E85 is only a temporary fix to a very long term problem. Even with hybrids is not viable on a very large scale or for the long term. Not to mention that currently it is not even economically viable. Until E85 drops below 80% of the price of gas any one using it is throwing money away on a pie in the sky dream. As long as E85 is at least 75% the price of gas most people using it are wasting money.
Use it if you must, but don't put all your eggs in that basket, the handle isn't very good.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Certainly most don't, but I have in the past (for a few months until our house was ready to move closer to a new job). Also, a great deal of people drive for work. Many sales people log 30-50k per year easily. My wife has a company car and drives at least 30k per year. Now if recharging stations could recharge a batter in 10 minutes, it probably wouldn't be much of an issue.
I think you have your percentage backward. I think that 90% of the car owners drive less than 150 per day. CA arguably the most mobile state, has an average driver commute of 32 miles each day. Also if we were to move into EVs in large numbers, employers would be wise to provide plug-ins while you work. Not many people commute by car over 150 miles each way. If they do they are crazy, or just love to drive.
I still think we are a ways from practical batteries for electric vehicles. I like the idea better than all the complexity in todays hybrids.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I know of someone who does 125 mile one way commute. However this person uses the train and his actual driving is less than 5 miles.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Welcome to the forum. I do hope you are not serious. If so I hope you live a long way from any neighbors. distilling alcohol is not a simple process. It is very dangerous, plus you would probably get a visit from the ATF as soon as you set up a still in your back yard. It is illegal to produce alcohol without a license.
Federal law allows for individuals to make a certain amount of their own alcohol for personal use, you just cannot sell it. But I do think there are strong restrictions of distilling it, which is what you need to do for fuel.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2004-11-29-commute_x.htm (edit: forgot to include the link.)
Also, my wife commutes to school 3 days a week 75 miles away. She's been doing this for the last 2 years...thank god it's almost over.
Also, how does grid-lock play into that? If someone's commute is only 15 miles one way, but it takes 45 minutes to an hour to travel that because of rush-hour traffic.
I've been reading about the work of a company called GreenFuel Technologies that is working on how to grow oil-laden algae on a truly huge scale. Imagine feeding the exhaust from coal-fired or natural gas-fired powerplants to "feed" vertical tanks of oil-laden algae; because the algae grows extremely fast under these conditions, a 200-acre farm of these tanks fed by the exhaust of a coal-fired powerplant nearby could make something like 15 million gallons of biodiesel fuel/heating oil annually! :surprise: And best of all, the "waste" from the processing of the algae could be processed into very large amounts of ethanol, too.
In short, such a facility offer these advantages: 1) large-scale biodiesel/heating oil production; 2) large-scale biomass available for ethanol production; and 3) because the algae substantially absorbs the CO2 and NOx gases from the coal-fired powerplant it also dramatically reduces pollutants far below even Kyoto Protocol guidelines. :shades:
You can read more about this at GreenFuel Technologies' website: http://www.greenfuelonline.com
That is the beauty of both electric and hybrid vehicles. When you are parked on the Interstate you are not using any energy. Unlike a car that is idling along. You will use less electricity driving 10 mph than 60 mph. I believe that last version of the GM EV1 had a range of 75-130 miles depending on the speed. It was computer controlled to go up to 80 MPH. It cost the tax payers and GM about a billion a piece in R&D. Now they are all crushed and recycled into Lucky Lager beer cans.
The idea of multiple drive systems, i.e. hybrids, is inherently flawed from an engineering perspective. Not only does it add to the complexity it adds to the manufacturing and maintenance costs and unless they are both operationg simultaneously it adds dead weight to the vehicle. Recapturing kinetic energy through regenerative braking is a good idea that almost dictates you have an electric means of storing it. I guess you could recapture this energy in a more mechanical way like a flywheel but that is not as clean a solution.
One of the obstacles EVs face is public perception that they are nothing more than street legal golf carts. While that certainly can be the case it doesn't necessarily have to be. The electric motor will create the potential for performance that is unachievable in an ICE vehicle.
http://www.businessweek.com/autos/content/apr2006/bw20060406_023618.htm
so now the american people wont have to look to honda and toyota bad styling they can skip them and go a few steps up in the price ans styling latter and purchase a mercedes
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I would not advise doing such a thing as it most likely will void your warranty.
It also comes with a treatment that will improve your fuel economy by 6%-17% so you can regain some of the lost MPG associated with E85.
Two issues here, first is that I seriously doubt the treatment will increase your mileage. Secondly, even if it did you still end up losing a lot in mileage.
Even in the 21st Century people still sell snake oil.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
If something appears to come down in price because of government support it is only an illusion. You are making up the discount in your tax bill.
Things can come down as it begins to be produced in larger quanitys . That is the way this country works.
The more they produce the cheaper it will become , the more they refine the process of creating the fuel the cheaper it will become .
Just switching to switchgrass would bring huge price savings .
The crop is good for 10+ years , that means no expensive seeds , no expensive plowing and tilling each year and no expensive fertilizer . 1 acre worth can produce over 1k barrels of fuel a year . It can also be grown in areas that other crops can't be grown in and it replenishes the soil so that in the future other crops can be grown.
Using the waste heat and emissions from a powerplant to produce biodiesel and ethanol. And at the same time, reducing the pollution emitted from the smokestack.
Nice...
:surprise:
In the winter sure , but in the summer I doubt it .
The one reason why electrical cars wont work is because americans like to drive on vacation . Sure I can use an electric car to go get grocerys and to go to the mall , but how about in the summer when I go down the shore or when I drive to florida for my yearly vactation. These cars simply wont do the trip or i'd have to currently stop every 60m or so adding alot of time to an already long drive in a car that would most likely not fit my 4 friends and I plus luggage.
I liked your post Thank you
I agree that sending your money to the midwest is better than sending it to the Middle East but why not keep it in your pocket? Whether its switchgrass, corn, sugar, beets, etc., it is all just stored solar energy. Why should we be paying anyone for the sun's rays?
Why pay the midwest for our food ? I can grow crops and raise animals in my back yard. The reason is , it takes time nad money to do and its just easier to buy from someone who does it for a living . You have to grow the switch grass , harvest it , send it to be refined or refine it on your own. Not exactly easy and its dangrous . I wouldn't want big vats of grain liquer in my back yard .
In 10 years we may not have batteries that can power a car for 300 miles but I suspect that 150 miles isn't out of the question and if it can charge in under 10 minutes from your home generated electricity the tradeoff is more than worth it.
But that wont work for the majority of users . As I said above what good is a 150m car if I want to drive from jersey to florida . I'm going to have stop twice as much as I do with my current end of the road jeep cherokee 94. Not only that but I'm sure the electric car that gets 150m wont be as big as my jeep.
Now how about an electric car / e85 car where it will switch to gas on the highway or when the charge is running low and the spining engine and breaking would recharge the battery . That is the way to go and I can see those coming in the next 10 to 15 years . But that is 10 to 15 years from now , what do we do later this year if gas hits 80+ a barrel ? The more expensive gas gets (And face it , gas isn't going to go down on the whole over the next few years ) the more efficent e85 will be . Just like hybrids .
So why not build a e85/hybrid Perhaps in 10 years we will only need to import oil from canada instead of from middle eastern countrys .
IMO, if we are talking about a long term solution why not go straight to our ultimate destination, electric vehicles, rather than take this ethanol detour. Because that long term solution will most likely take a long term to get working to where people will actually support it .
e85 is simple to support. Buy a flex fuel car and when flex fuel , fuel is aviable simply fill up at your gas station , you get slightly less milleage but you wont need an expensive mod to your house to power it .
By most estimates, within 10 years, the cost of these solar systems should be half what it is today. Then it really becomes a no-brainer.
Its expensive . I would not mind solar powering but where am I going to get 20k for a car and 20k for solar set up to charge the car . Also how many cars will my house be able to charge from solar panels ?
When my house was built in the 1930s they didn't build it with the thought of solar energy , the roofs are not slanted towards where we get the most sun over the day. So for me it wont be viable .
Sure solar sounds great. However its not going to be that easy in practice .
Secondly if your going to complain about someone elses bs don't go around about your estimates on someone elses car.
Why not , if they can post bs , So can I . IF you don't like it then stop posting bs and I will stop posting bs .
The biggest problem still exists. Getting it from the production area to the states where it is needed. It is difficult to store & transport
Thats whats great about switch grass , it can be grown almost anywhere . That means jersey , new york , NC , SC and most of the other states on the easter seaboard can grow it , the midwest should be fine growing it and some states in west should be fine also .
It doesn't just have to be grown on crop land . As I said you can grow it on the side of the road . We have large strips of highways in this country that has nothign but grass next to it . Grow switch grass , harvest it a couple a times a year and there you go .
Secondly, it is not a good fuel for tractors, trucks and heavy equipment used to farm thats fine and diesel can be used for this .
In fact the government in their ineptitude drove me out of farming in 1979. Right now a neighbor farms it and it barely pays the taxes.
If you have a farm just sitting there you should be hoping for e85 , you can switch your farm to switchgrass that requires very little work and harvest it and sell it . I'm sure you'd make more than whatever your currently farming there .
Some people travel far often. In the summer time I travel 200-300m each weekend one way to vist friends or go down the shore. As i've said , its fine for heading to work or the store , but its not going to help me when I take long trips. Some people never do , some people take trips often.
A few corrections 41.6 Billion gallons would be slightly less than 30% and you would need about 20% of the farmland to get that. Now considering that Ethanol contains less energy that the same amount of gas your 41.6 billion gallons would replace only 36.7 billion gallons of oil, or slightly more than 20% of what we currently use.
Of course your assuming that engines produced will only get what the epa"claims" flex fuel engiens are getting. Your ignoring the fact that about a 100 years of refiment have gone into gass engines and e85 has not seen anywhere near that amount of investment.
Your also assuming that the refining process will not improve and it wont take less engery to produce more energy .
And your ignoring the fact that traditional farm land
isn't hte only land that has to be used
That would be to much cropland to use. How are people going to eat? how do we eat now when the majority of corn is turned into syrups for fruit drinks and the majority of grain is stored.
You seem to not understand that there is more food produced here than we eat . Not to mention you skim over the fact that i've mentioned we wouldn't even need to use traditional crop land to do this . We can use land that wont grow anything else .
I think its 5 minutes but I could be wrong. But the issue with it is that regardless of how fast it is capable of recharging a battery can only recharge as fast as its power source can supply the energy.
Of course , but adding this battery into a e85 hybrid or gas hybrids would increase mpg . The benfit of e85 is that with one barrel of cruded you can created almost 3 and a half barrels of e85 . Thus reducing our dependance. This is with out factoring in the money saved by switchgrass that doesn't require the expensive seeds and fertilzer , doesn't need the earth tilled and roated each year .
Short sightedness works in many ways. E85 is only a temporary fix to a very long term problem. Even with hybrids is not viable on a very large scale or for the long term. Not to mention that currently it is not even economically viable. Until E85 drops below 80% of the price of gas any one using it is throwing money away on a pie in the sky dream. As long as E85 is at least 75% the price of gas most people using it are wasting money.
Once again you have a limited view on the situation. Your thinking corn, I'm thinking switchgrass . Switchgrass will be an ecnomic boon for us . Sure its not going to fix the gas problems 200 years from now . But it will push those problems out to 200 years from now instead of 50 years . That is what this tech is here for . Thats what hybrids , diesel and e85 is meant to do , push the major problems out as far as possible so that we can develop the tech we need to push those things away .
You keep claiming numbers and your using the same numbers over and over again.
Please tell me what the average price of e85 is now and the average price of gass.
Tell me when gas hits 80 a barrel what the average prices will be. You seem to think that gas prices are going to stay what they are , or lower in price, the prices are just going to go up and if we can make 1 barrel stretch into 3 and a half barrels that is a pretty damn good start to solving the energy problem.
Use it if you must, but don't put all your eggs in that basket, the handle isn't very good.
What basket to you recommend ? Gas ? Solar power ? Pluging it into the wall.
The last two would be great , to bad they aren't ready for primetime and most likely wont be for a very long time. Even if its just 10 years from solar power / charging stations . that is still 10 years of gas price increases that I would rather avoid or reduce