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Are there any definitive studies on just how much burning ethanol reduces CO2 emissions? I realize that the CO2 being put into the atmosphere by burning ethanol is roughly equal to what was taken out during the plants growth cycle. I read articles that will have you believe this results in no net additional CO2 in the atmosphere. I've got to question that conclusion. If this crop had been grown on a patch of dirt that had zero vegetation and zero photosynthesis taking place then maybe. Otherwise we have turned land into a CO2 recycler that was once a CO2 sink. This will definitely have a negative impact on global warming. And it wont be a one shot deal. This effect will be cumulative over the years that the land is recycling CO2 as opposed to taking it out of the air and storing it in the ground. Anyway, I think the notion that this ethanol approach is "green" could be a little misleading.
Rocky
What is even worse is we dumped a lot of nitrogen into the soil to get the corn to grow. That leaches into the streams and rivers and eventually to the sea, causing huge amounts of algae to grow. When it dies it sucks the oxygen from the water killing the other life forms that depend on oxygenated water. All to satisfy some fat cat farmers with high rolling lobbyists.
If switchgrass is the ethanol source of the future, let's wait until the process is developed to push this whole ethanol campaign. It was not that many years ago everyone including the environmentalists jumped on the MTBE bandwagon. It was supposed to clean our air. If people in Long Beach had not started getting cancer for unknown reasons we would still be using that crap.
The link above appears to be reasonably accurate. The reduction in CO2 from ethanol (relative to gasoline)having a lower % carbon is completely or nearly completely offset by its lower energy content. Thus, gasoline and ethanol put out about the same CO2 content. Engine tests have indicated that ethanol reduces the amount of nitrogen oxides formed. The high temperature and pressure in an engine allow atmospheric nitrogen and oxygen to combine. The lower "explosion" temperature of ethanol allegedly reduces the amount of nitrogen oxides that are formed. Additionally, there might also be some reduction in sulfur oxide emissions when using ethanol instead of gasoline. All of this is offset by the amount of energy (in the form of diesel fuel at the farm) required to derive ethanol from corn.
In a nutshell, you're suspicions are well founded. Ethanol and hydrogen lobbyists tend to use more marketing than science in their efforts to broaden usage. It appears to be working.
The supporters of biofuels make a bigger deal about this than is warranted. To hear them tell it the main energy input is free sunlight. In fact there are huge inputs of energy required for cultivation, transportation and conversion of the plant carbohydrates to purified ethanol. So the total process releases more CO2 to the atmosphere than was removed by the photosynthesizing plant.
Even more important are the soil and water requirements, especially for corn. Fresh water is a limited resource, and many scientists believe that modern industrial agriculture is not sustainable in the long term. It wears out the soil by erosion and depletion of nutrients. Furthermore the dead zone of several thousand square miles off the mouth of the Mississippi R. has been traced to excess nitrogen fertilizer run-off from identified counties in the midwest, in Louisiana and in Mississippi. The farmers who are causing this are not now being required to pay to prevent or to compensate for the damage they are causing to these marine resources.
The dollars we spend on importing oil are going to counties that support radical islam.
We spent 170 billon in 1995 about 1/4 of all total imports
US World report article.
National security
Two of the three top importers of oil to the US are Canada number one, Mexico number three. I don't think either is a terrorist threat. If we abandon Saudi Arabia things will get worse over there. Using Saudi & Iraqi oil until it is depleted is our best maneuver over the long haul. Iran has lousy oil, very high in Sulfur. No one wants to deal with it. I doubt any country is paying $70 per barrel for that stuff. I just think this whole Ethanol program is not well thought out. As soon as the price of corn goes up again it will price itself out of the market and we will have to pay a premium for the E10 mandate.
crude oil bench marks
Probably too SIMPLE!!
Also why dont they FORCE the oil co's to invest their "windfall profits" into new refineries??
Your answer is nope.
OTOH-Phillips in Borger, Tx has over 2000 construction personel going right now to build a resin plant that makes a plastic that is like 4 or 7 times stronger than steel and is used in some automobiles and is expected to get even more use in the near future.
Rocky
P.S.
As I explained in the gas Price forum there is work of about 12 Ethanol plants going up. One I know of getting build in Hereford, Tx right now and supposably 1 is going up here in Dumas, and another going up in Sunray, Tx
Because those who are [pick one] A.) Champions of the environment or B.) environmental wackos block every attempt to build a new refinery.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
For one, that would tough to pull off. I can't see how the government could possibly mandate that sort of investment.
For another, we lack refinery capacity in large part because during the time of $15 oil, refining was a low margin business. In the value chain from exploration to delivery, refining produced minimal value (from an economic standpoint -- nobody was willing to pay much for it), so refineries didn't get built and were closed down.
At this point, this illustrates that the free market alone is not going to promote a rational energy policy. You can debate the specific alternatives, but whichever ones one may favor, we need some to be supported, if but to reduce the degree to which we are held hostage politically by being so dependent upon it. It's not just a matter of short-term pricing that we need to worry about.
We haven't built a new refinery in the US for around 30 years.
I want a comfortable car like the Impala with a high mileage diesel. I don’t care that much about performance; I just want comfort with reduced fuel consumption.
My wallet is not deep enough to afford a Mercedes Benz.
The last list I saw of places you could get E85 was a few dozen places and still they were in fleet use not public.
Sure E85 is one of the better ideas to rid us off fossil fuels but still there is no infrastructure and not real desire to start in that area. It sort of seems like the same ole BS like when the USA was going to change over to metric and nothing ever happened. I beleive that unless there is some sort of major push like Kennendy did for the space program , nothing will really happen.
After all, why would anybody want to spend $, when they make records profits with just what they process?
Now on the other hand. Yes China and india got new cars but.........I know that the USA is only 6% of the world's population but consume 25% of world's energy.....along with those god given rights to drive those one passenger "Support Usama Vechicules" (SUV)with cheap gas forever.
However with switchgrass its not . Switchgrass doesn't need to be replanted for 10 years . So right there its more efficent than corn as you need to replant corn in a diffrent area each year which costs alot . Replanting every 10 years or so saves alot of money on the corn seed.
Then we have the needs of switchgrass . Switch grass doesn't need the fertilizers that are used for corn . Switchgrass can grow in much harsher conditions and will actually restore the soil as it grows . It can also be used as a buffer near streams and rivers as it will absorb alot of run off from chemicals used for other crops .
Switchgrass also needs less water . also for each barrel of oil you can create up to 3.43 barrels of ethanol. With corn you can created 1.21 barrels .
Corn isn't the answer . I believe this is being used because of lobbying from the fertilizer and seed industrys .
In San Fran, they use dog poop as fuel.
Even old tires which were made from fossil fuel can be converted back to oil.
The list goes on and on but unfrotunely still the USA has no forward movement. :confuse:
Much like how we have regular / plus / super
We can have e10 / e20 / e40 as time goes on and our ethanol production goes up.
For sure but also according to the head of (I believe) exxonmobil said,,,,,, "we made record profits again and we ain't gonna build any more refineries either".
With an attiude like that, they surely won't build anything new unless they are madated to!
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I know that has happened in CA. Also the State Legislature has blocked any attempt to build another refinery in CA since the early 1970s. I don't think you will see a big push to build an Ethanol refinery in CA. Remember the hassles they went through in MN. Ethanol refineries stink real bad. No one wants one within 100 miles of their home.
http://www.e85fuel.com/database/search.php
I heard a spokesman for the ethanol industry comment that right now with the high demand due to government intervention it is like a "license to print money". Look where the venture capital dollars are going. That's great. All these people that are up in arms about the oil industry record profits seem willing to jump right on board this boondoggle.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
1.Canada 1,616
2 Mexico 1,598
3 Saudi Arabia 1,495
4 Venezuela 1,297
5 Nigeria 1,078
6 Iraq 655
7 Angola 306
8 Kuwait 241
9 United Kingdom 238
10 Ecuador 232
Lives lost fighting for Oil
There were 147 American fatalities in the 1991 war
American Iraq war fatalities 2300 and counting
Civilian deaths 38000 and counting
is Oil worth fighting, when we can grow Ethanol at home
Yes, ethanol will not run in my diesel car or Sprinter. Who here is actually using E85 in their vehicle. What is the MPG compared to regular gas? How difficult to find E85 and at what price? I see it as a poor substitute for fossil fuel. Someone needs to do better than ethanol for me to get excited. It has been used and thrown out as a substitute numerous times over the last 100 years. When will people learn, ethanol is not worth the trouble.
Not me, even when I had an E85 vehicle I wouldn't use it. To much loss in mileage and not cheap enough to cover the loss of mileage. I pay 15% less and get 25% less mileage, thats a no brainer.
What is the MPG compared to regular gas?
Going by EPA estimates on average 25% less for E85. Some cars will get 20% less some as much as 35% less.
How difficult to find E85 and at what price?
Around here (Chicago area) its not hard, not easy either. I would say most people would have to go out of their way to find it. Its been running about 30 to 40 cents a gallon cheaper here.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Please try to avoid taking these discussion off track.
Thanks for your cooperation and participation.
You're so very welcome.
This just goes to show that topics are teflon, nothing sticks to them.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I found a station, believe it's a Gas City, @ the intersection of Routes 59 and 56. Saw a sign last week indicating E85 for $2.69. I believe regular was going for $2.89 or $2.99. I will be going by there today and will take another look.
I did notice a BIG problem. The only way you can see the sign if you're going south on 59, in the left lane, and there's no oncoming traffic or someone pulling in/out of the station. Not a good way to advertise you have E85. Also as you stated, you have to go way out of your way to get to the station, unless you stay in the Wheaton / Warrenville area.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
E85: $2.65
Reg 87: $2.85
Premium: $3.09?
Not 100% on the premium price, again, the sign's so small it's hard to make out, but believe that's what it was. But what's strange is usually it's at least a dime above everyone else in the area for unleaded fuel, somewhat in-toe to the Shell and the Speedway on 59 & Batavia Rd (about a mile north on 59 from Gas City). Now they're running about the same as everyone else. :confuse:
Really? I used to live near there until about three years ago. Just south of Eola and the Reagan Memorial Tollway. And I remember back then they were usually slighly below everyone else.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Rocky
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Rocky
I drove past there (Gas City) this morning, regular was $2.95. The Speedway and Shell on 59 & Batavia Rd. are running $2.89 for regular.
I filled up at my usual spot (Meijer's on 59) and they're running $2.83, same as last week. From what I saw this morning from Meijer's to I88 (going North on 59) then to Gas City the prices were:
Before the toll
Speedway: $2.83
Thornton: $2.83
Shell: $2.83
Right before the toll
Mobil: $2.87 (right at the I88 toll)
After the toll
Gas City: $2.95
This is about a 2 mile stretch, give or take
Going along the same path on Eola it's up and down, going from $2.97 @ Mobil, then down to $2.91 @ Jewel's, then up to $2.95 at BPAmoco.
I know that area well as I used to live a few blocks away from there. IIRC the BPAmoca and the 7/11 across the street always had the same price and the Jewel (sometime I will tell you the story of how we almost blew that jewel up
Oh heck here is the short story, it was just before it opened up for business and I was making a few extra bucks helping out setting it up when someone broke a gas line 2 days before the grand opening. :shades:
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D