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Toyota Camry Hybrid: Ordering Process
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Comments
First off, what are you calling "Blue Book" price. Kelly's has a trade in, a private party and a retail blue book price. On the "trade in" blue book price they also have a condition variable and a lot of dealers around here want to use the fair or good price, never the excellent price. You can look this price up yourself, although there seems to be a book for dealers and a book for consumers. Anyway, look just before you go as the numbers do change. IF the national market is hit because of gas prices that should be reflected in the book price or the going rate. For them to discount it because of gas prices has nothing to do with the book price. People still want good used SUV's and around here $2000 buys you junk.
The disadvantage I have in WV is we pay taxes on the difference in trade. The dealers know that so you have to deal with that issue.
However the advantage to this also is when you have a nice ride and dealer is honest, then in my example I traded in an Infiniti FX45 and I got the private party price (considerably higher than trade in pricing) and in effect traded for my loaded TCH for $500, thus my taxes on the deal were only $25. (5% of the difference). Had I wanted to sell my vehicle outright I would have had to sold it for more than $1500 more than the dealer offered just to break even. I got this price against a $589 discount on my TCH ($30589 MSRP)no addons or markups by the dealer
That is the same with CA car dealers. The only time they use the excellent price is when they are selling to you.
And SUVs are still selling well. Especially the small ones. The RAV4 is Toyotas biggest gainer in sales.
Counting the minutes....... !!
I purchased my car in southern California and have a Mag. Gray with bisque leather.......so it certainly is available.
This is a really key point, orgal. If people understood it there would sure be a lot less stress in the 'discussions'.
Simply put there is a retail market price for any vehicle from about $500 to $50000+. For used vehicles kbb and Edmunds are good guides and are pretty close to the market. The retail sales price is what it is, say $4000 as in your case. You might hold out for a higher price, say $6000, but used vehicles aren't like wine they age quickly ( very quickly, see below ).
There is about a $2000-4000 difference between the retail price of a used vehicle and the trade-in value. Simply put whoever does the work to sell the vehicle should 'earn' this difference. If you sell it you should make the $3000, if the dealer sells it he should make the $3000. That's basic capitalism. Most people understand this when it's explained clearly without emotion.
Current market conditions: ( your Explorer for example ) A client had a very nice GMC SUV that he could trade back in April but it had high miles. He opted to try to sell it himself since our trade-in offer was $17000 and he thought he could get about $20000 for it. We guaranteed the trade-in value through 4-30. Last week he asked us to buy it from him outright since he didn't have any firm offers and the 'trade-in' values ranged from $11500 to $13500. Gas price and a glut of people dumping their SUV's for Corollas, Civics, etc. killing the value of most large SUV's.
Tacoma WA TCH
Sorry I didn’t reply sooner, the deposit in Ca. was for a car with ash leather interior. This was a car they are expecting to arrive in the next few days. Unfortunately the manager of the dealership killed the deal, he said Toyota doesn’t want the TCH's from California dealers to be sold to out of state customers. Also, they already have a local buyer for the car
I guess I’m a brut for punishment though because now I have a deposit at another dealer, but in a different state that doesn’t charge sales tax to out of state buyers. I’ve decided to take whatever color I can get as long as it’s fully loaded, this one is titanium metallic. I’ve seen this color in person on a TCH and it looks good, but not as sharp as the mag gray. This car is supposedly “on the truck” and should arrive any day. Got my fingers crossed.
FYI, I've found 2 Red and 3 White Camry Hybrids at various San Diego dealers today. They seem to be arriving at a faster pace. Chula Vista Toyota has 5 Prius on the lot as well :surprise:
Now to get my depost back from Escondido Toyota - they said yesterday I might see one by August :confuse: Glad I called around!
Keep in mind that if you trade your hybrid vehicle you may have to give up the tax credit and you probably can't reclaim it with the new (used) vehicle you would be buying.
I'm no expert on this but you should check that out prior to a change.
You might want to check with the IRS on the following:
The vehicle is acquired for use or lease by the taxpayer, and not for resale.
Rules relating to recapture of credit (e.g., if the vehicle is re-sold)
I then called my dealer and guess what? Please don't hate me--they have an exact copy (color/options, etc) of my car arriving this week. A cancellation. The buyer is picking up my car on Tuesday and the replacement for it will arrive sometime this week. Capitalism--I feel guilty but, heh, the guy wanted a new Camry hybrid and he didn't mind paying a premium. I get a new one without miles. Sigh...I hate myself.
You may want to check the tax laws. I've heard that you may not get to keep the credit if you resell the car.
Here is an article:
http://hybridcars.com/tax-deductions-credits.html
"The new law for the hybrid tax credit might require taxpayers to recapture their hybrid tax credit if they re-sell their hybrid car or truck."
Again, this is all unconfirmed. Let us know what you find out.
YMMV
Information on the deduction:
http://hybridcars.com/tax-deductions-credits.html
Form for the deduction:
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f8910.pdf
US Tax Code relating to the deduction.
http://www.taxalmanac.org/index.php/Sec._30B._Alternative_motor_vehicle_credit
If I read it correctly, there are still rules to be written, including one regarding "recapture" of the credit:
(8) RECAPTURE- The Secretary shall, by regulations, provide for
recapturing the benefit of any credit allowable under subsection
(a) with respect to any property which ceases to be property eligible
for such credit (including recapture in the case of a lease period of
less than the economic life of a vehicle).
As always, YMMV.
What about sales tax? Didn't you have to pay it when you bought it -- and you don't get it back when you sell it, do you? Unless I am misunderstanding something...
Thats 1835 in tax in my state (Michigan), and they charge tax on the full vehicle price, regardless of your trade in (which kind of sucks - but that is another story)...
No sales tax in Oregon....
I live in the wrong state! :P
No sales tax for out of state buyers in Nevada and in my home state of New Mexico there's no sales tax on hybrids.
Thanks to everyone on this forum for all the good info and ideas!
Here's the story (which I am pretty sure I have covered a bit of previously)...
I got a call from one of my "top 2" dealers with deposits, who told me that he had a magnetic gray loaded TCH with Nav, and it should be here in about 3-4 weeks. This was on May 25th. The 4 week mark will be this Thursday, June 22nd. I have called/emailed numerous times asking for a VIN number and a more accurate delivery date, and always got very vague info. When I would press for what "status" it is in (A, F, or G), he would say something like "I think it is in A status, but I am sure it will be in F or G status soon". This confused me - how can you only "THINK" it is in A-status if it has been supposedly allocated your dealer for 2 weeks already??? I was suspicious of the situation, but I figured he was busy, or just didn't have an accurate date yet.
Last week, my salesman from the the other "top 2" dealers called - and this guy is the one that I have actually hoped would come through with a car for me because he has been very forthright and trustworthy thus far). He asked asked what the status was of the other dealers I have been working with. He said that they were going to put in an allocation for a TCH with nav, and he wanted to know if I was still looking, since he wanted me to get first shot at it.
I also had told him about the Mag Grey one that I had coming from the other dealer, and he said that he had been looking for TCH's with nav in the system and sees NOTHING in the state of Michigan right now. He told me that the only way he knew of that they could have one allocated to them (this "bad" dealer is in Michigan), it would have to be in G status, since they become invisible on the system after this point. He said there may be ways to make a car invisible before this G status, but wasn't sure if it was possible.
This didn't really surprise me, but I tried calling and emailing the first salesman for 4 days, until I finally reached him this morning. I told him that I was trying to get a status, since the 4-weeks timeframe was upon us, and he said he had to check with someone else and call me back shortly. Surprise, surprise...he never called me back.
Am I justified in being concerned about this dealer? I really want to just tell them to credit me back for my deposit, but I am afraid it is in G status and I might miss out. At the same time I don't want to buy another car from yet another dealer - I have never bought two cars from the same dealer. I always leave dealerships "post-purchase" with a bad taste in my mouth.
In the meantime, the "good" dealer requested a Blue Ribbon or Mag Grey with Nav and ended up with a Titanium allocated to them. He has been jumping through hoops to try to work a dealer trade to get either gray or blue. I think we have found a gray one where the buyer really wanted titanium, so I am crossing my fingers hoping that this trade works out. It even benefits other dealer, since they will get the titanium car next week, and the gray one won't come in until the first week of July.
Please share your thoughts (kdhspyder and ALL of you!)...
Thanks,
Jeff
I think all of you (not just you spiff72) need to realize the amonunt of work and worry you're asking these salespeople to do over 1 sale. Granted that's how they make their living. If I were a salesperson and I knew that you wanted a car and you were going to buy from me I would bend over backwards to make the sale, BUT if I knew you were doing this same routein with other sales people and I knew that my TCH when it arrived would sit on the lot for less than a day and sale for MSRP then I would probably give you lip service and sit back and wait on one of my past, loyal customers to ask for the car and it would be theirs.
Most of the salespeople I deal with are not all that knowledgable and really don't want to get in the details. A car shows up they sell it or you order it and get it when it comes in. You can't expect them to have and maintain the same daily excitement that you have about getting your car. Also, if all they see on a computer screen is a blank, there is only so many times they want to go back and look at that. You and I may sit in front of a PC all day but most of these guys don't and they have to ask someone to do this for them.
Just my thought.
I guess that's OK to expect as long as you're honest and tell them you're on multiple waiting lists and you consider this deposit as simply a place holder. If this was not a TCH and it was a yellow Sequoia, a deposit for an order would mean, hey I want this so I'll show you I'm serious, please order me this and you intended to take it.
what good is this doing either of us?
They have your money, probably in the bank and earning interest. They also have your (supposedly) committment that you're going to buy a car from them. Except for this freak hybrid demand situation, if you gave them money then they could trade around or whatever to get you a car, knowing that you gave them moneuy and they truly have a sale. Frankly since most of the dealers won't trade and they are limited as to what they get I'm surprised they even fool with anything other than a waiting list. The only thing the deposit really helps is for the salesperson, not the dealer. It gives the sales person first shot at the sale if you have a deposit. Without it, then when a TCH showed up there would be 15 salesmen scrambling to sell it (possibly with a bigger commision since it's MSRP)knowing it's going to move quickly. The dealer really doesn't car because he knows it's going to sell.
My whole point was that this is a big deal to us, like waiting for Santa to arrive. However to them it's just another day and they've got all us idiots out there combing the countryside for a TCH. To the elves making these toys and the truckers and rail people delivering them and the dealers selling them it's still just a car being sold and they do that every day. Most salespeople I have met don't have the enthusiam about this that we do.
I've pitted dealer against dealer before to get the best pricing. However if all dealers are going to give me a MSRP price and all I can do is take the color they get then I see no benefit in telling them I have multiple deposits down. They probably feel like they're being used. The salesperson that has the deposit thinks they have a sale and then when you back out someone else may get the sale. Or then again one salesperson has a regualr client (like me) that wants one but he's 6th on the list because a bunch of people said they want the car. I'd just buy at the first one and then call the others to say I'm sorry but I found one already.
I said this before, but there is no way Toyota can really know what the true demand for this car is since the waiting lists have people on multiple lists.
Not saying you shouldn't do this, just don't see any advantage in telling the dealer from your perspective. This current deposit mania is new to me, I don't remember in the past hearing about people doing this at multiple dealerships. I guess the scarcety and the timing of the tax credis make this issue more critical, if not I'd just pick the dealer I like and wait for the one I wanted.
Your read on the situation seems spot on IMO. The vague answers that you've been getting are not typical and seem to me like the first dealership is trying to 'hang on' to you so that you don't slip off to buy elsewhere. It's common in every business but it is frustrating.
The 2nd place seems a lot more proactive and what he has told you about seeing vehicles in Toyota's intranet system is also correct. Generally stores won't hide their inventory but if for example a unit is presold then they might do so to avoid all the other stores from calling all the time asking about it.
TCH's are not that rare that stores would hide all their unsold incoming units - but I guess anything is possible. A GSM might not want anyone to be calling him so he hides all the special vehicles, Prius', FJ's, TCH's.
I believe however that your read is correct and the second store is working harder for your business. It sounds like a good place to do business.
Bob
The second dealer is one with whom I have had a good service relationship, but I have never bought a car from them. The second dealer required a deposit.
I have found the first dealer to be working much harder for my business, and my salesman is much more responsive. I'm getting ready to ask for my deposit back from the second dealer as I want to reward the first for their work.
If it is only in "A", it still has to be assigned and shipped from Japan. Maybe even built.
I don't play games, and only take deposits on cars I have in stock or in the pipeline.
The reason for a deposit is actually two fold here, it shows that you are truely planning on buying, but MORE importantly that the car coming in is YOURS, it holds the car for you and keeps other salespeople from selling it out from under you. If you request a refund of a deposit it is done the same day espically if you use a charge card for the deposit. We dont make a living off stealing your money or holding your deposit
Now as far as deposits go, I call my customers every few days with an update on what is going on with their order or incoming car or truck.
I have been in sales all my life, and there is nothing worse then hearing such horrible stories as salesmen not calling their customers, answering questions honestly and doing business the proper way.
if I dont know the answer I will tell you I dont know it and I will also tell you I will get the correct answer for you as quickly as possible, I dont mind doing the research to answer a question I dont know the proper answer to, it is hard for me to know everything there is to know about every car.
If your sales person doesnt contact you, then he isnt a salesman but an order taker. The toyota camry hybrid sells itself right now and the average buyer knows more about the car they plan to buy then 90% of the sales people selling them
if you have any questions about a toyota hybrid, not only local to me but anywheres in the country please feel free to send me an email I will be more then happy to answer your questions.
If you dont want to wait for an ordered hybrid remember I have two in stock ready for you to drive home today. But my goal here isnt really to sell a car my goal is to learn to better serve my customers when they do have questions regarding the toyota camry hybrid
John C
Please dont feel that if you dont buy the car from me that you cant ask me a question, I am here to learn what you need as a consumer, and to provide the best service I can
If I were a large metropolitan dealership and I had say 100 deposits of $1000 in the bank at any given time then yes, having 100K of cash in the bank probably helps my bottom line as far as credit worthness, and cash flow. I could have cash flow with someelses money for business operations rather than using my own funds.
If I am a small rural business I probably just hold the check and use it as leverage to hassle the person in staying with the deal (such as a poster yesterday did, even though the dealer made her feel stupid and treated her poorly).
Either way, I probably am in agreement with you that it should be totally unnecessary for a deposit to be required at all on a car that moves this well.
My customers are told at delivery of their new car and every time I contact them that they are not to call service I would prefer them to call me first, this way i can set up the service appointment and follow up and make sure everything is fixed properly before they pick up their car.
Some people buy strictly based on price but through the years I have found I have lost very few deals based strictly on price, I have found that by providing a freindly helpful service customers allow me to earn their business time and time again.
wvgasguy if you ever have any questions feel free to email me and ask away, I dont mind answering questions at all, if you currently own the TCH you may want to check out a post a wrote in another thread about gas mileage where I describe how the ECO button will save you fuel and allow you to set the air conditioning to a level that will freeze you out fo thte car.
I hope you love your new car and that you get many happy miles of service free driving from it
John C
Does this wait time seem about right? I'd wait 1-2 months, but don't want to be strung out forever. Semi-picky on color: titanium, grey, red or maybe blue okay. Any idea how I can track what is available or due soon in this region?
Any idea about installing a sunroof if I get the base model? I know this can be done, but seems crazy to me. I could not a find a forum to discuss this.
At that point where is the vehicle:
- being built?
- built and waiting for loading?
- in transit by ship?
Any estimates on how long the ship takes to get from Japan to Houston? This is through the Panama Canal, so the car will have seen more countries and continents than I have!
After arrival, it looks like our friends at Gulf States will have it for 0 days to 2 weeks. However, I'm not getting any of the Gulf States stuff (junk), so I'm hoping that it will move out of Houston into the Austin area quickly.
Soooo... where am I in the process, if the allocation was just made to the dealer yesterday (Thursday)?