On highway, EPA could simply cruise at 60 mph, occasionally accelerate to about 70 mph, and try to have an average speed of about 65 mph (given most interstate speed limits). 48 mph average is too low.
City rating would be more complicated. A combination of 35 mph stretch with stop lights every half mile, followed by 40 mph stretch with stop lights every mile, and longer for 45 mph (done for cold AND warm starts and then averaged) may be fairly close to reality. If need be, throw in some downtown driving as well.
I personally don't see what it matters whether or not the EPA estimates reflect real world values. As long as they can be used as a reference. For instance a car rated at 30 mpg should get 20% better mileage than one rated at 25 mpg. Who cares if these numbers actually turn out to be 24 and 20 respectively. I think the EPA should just come out with baseline mileages and assign them a value of 100. What they are currently considering 30 mpg highway and 20 mpg city could now be called 100. Every car's rating would just be a percentage of the baseline.
Even along these lines I do think the EPA needs to make some adjustment to the ratings that hybrids are getting. I've never driven one but apparently most drivers aren't getting the mileage improvement that they expected.
That isn't right because if your hybrid car is getting 15 or 20 mpg less, that means that much more you gotta drive it to offset the price premium of the hybrid motor. I'm sure some now would of went the 4 cylinder route and kept the change. :surprise:
$3.26 is the highest I've seen for 87 octane, at a 76 next to a freeway cloverleaf.
It's putting the hurt on people, so there's a lot of chatter about it at work. But shoot, a lot of the complaining is stupid. If you bought an SUV to feel safe or tow your boat, especially if you bought it recently, you knew what the tradeoff would be. I overheard someone saying they were reducing their 401(k) contributions so they could keep up their recreational boating - fine with me but don't expect any sympathy.
well gosh darn, what do you ant them to do ? Live like a Hermit and never leave the home and wait to just die. :confuse: I understand what you are trying to say, but I'd be damned if I'm going to sit back and let the oil cartel change my life. You could die tommorow or in 30+ years, and do you want your memory's to be how one sat at home or had to get a third job to put petro in the car. This is why we as a society are going nuts. We have the haves and have nots, and we are losing the middle which was and is the majority but is alarmingly shrinking. The World Bank once we run out of worthyness is going to send our economy into a 29' style depression.
I want people to face up to their own choices. If you buy a luxury car, you're going to have high car payments. If you buy a gas guzzler, it's going to guzzle gas. I hope to have a gas guzzling sports car one day, and every time I fill up I hope that I'll think "hey, it's worth it!"
You take the good with the bad. Or you take the good and whine about the bad, and lose my respect.
Well I'm not out to earn your respect carlismo. I don't want to drive a gosh damn Prius while the oil [non-permissible content removed] monopolize the free market that so many of you love. We live in the United States of America, and this isn't the Europe where one can just hop on a bullet train, bus, subway, etc to get back n' forth from work to save a buck in most places. We depend on the automobile, as a tool more so than just a luxury. I can't fit my wife, kids, and luggage in a stupid Prius or a Honda fit, which by the way I wouldn't beable to fit in. I want to drive a big safe car, truck, SUV, back n' forth to work, and other errands and activity's I want to do with my family. it's one damn thing for a company to make a good profit, but it's inmorale when that company gouges the consumer do to corporate greed, with a neccesity like gasoline. The oil cartel has baught and sold politcians for way to long and the buck needs to stop here. Our capatalism is corrupt because lobbyist are baught and can get favorable laws passed. It's no longer a government for the people, but rather a government for corporate america, and the oil company's are among the top of the list of folks that have ruined american politics. We need a major overhual of campaign finaces and a good reform might clean up washington from being baught by oil cronies. This is not the way this country was suppose to be run, and each year lobbyist and more money is pumped into political elections, which further gives your average Joe, even less of a say so, because he lacks the money to fight the rich.
Maybe you are okay with all of this ? I'm not. I'm tired of the ridiculous gouging at the pump and everywhere else. Unfortunatly I'm only one man with a opinion. I suppose I will continue to get gouged, and the wounds will continue to hurt because I'm not willing to have a 2 car garage with a Echo, and a prius in it. :mad:
As long as we live under a capitalist system it's what I expect - since are willing to pay more for gas, we will! My econopolitical persuation is something different, so no I don't like any of what goes on in any part of the current world. But this oil situation sounds like a natural part of our system to me.
Driving a big car/suv/truck is a choice, not a right. Most other countries make do with much smaller cars on average than we do in the US. To them, we look like glutens and wasteful. Other countries make their choices based on economics because their energy cost are higher. It's okay to want a big car that your family can fit in, and if it guzzles more gas, than that's your choice. You can control how much you pay for gas just like everyone else, either drive less, switch to a smaller, more economical vehicle, change driving habits, or any combination of the these.
We can't do much about the political process that will make a significant difference in the short term, but we can control how much we spend on gas, and therefore contribute to the profits of big oil. :shades:
I'm very much a capitalist but I'm not sure if I agree with your position that driving a gas guzzler should be a personal choice. Right now oil is our only option for powering our vehicles and it is a limited resource that we all have to share. Should people be able to use as much as they want just because they can afford to? Its clearly not a socially responsible thing to do and in a society sometimes we need to consider how our actions effect others.
I agree that driving a gas guzzler is both a right and a choice. In countries which have high energy cost, they will punish those owners of gas guzzler by charging them a very high annual registration fee depending on the displacement of their vehicles, 4.5L vehicle is ten times more than a 1.8L vehicle. This is in addition to the high TAX on the gas US$3.50 /Gallon. This will deter people from driving the gas guzzler, SUV or luxury sedan.
you: Right now oil is our only option for powering our vehicles and it is a limited resource that we all have to share.
me: This and every other country in the world for as long as the internal combbustion engine engine, has had people that could not afford gasoline or autos. This has varied from country to country based on relative wealth. Based on the available supply, cost and price, people who could afford oil and gasoline drove, and those who made less drove less or not at all. Explain why the current situation is any different? Millions of Americans could not afford gas before these increases.
you: Should people be able to use as much as they want just because they can afford to?
me: They always have. You can also fly a plane and drive a boat using hundreds of gallons of fuel if you want. People can go on all sorts of vacations, causing all sorts of jet fuel usage.
you: Its clearly not a socially responsible thing to do and in a society sometimes we need to consider how our actions effect others.
me: you are welcome to compete economically with the rest of us. In the vast majority of the world, even in Communist China those who make/save more $ get the gas.
Any tax such as you propose based on displacement would be flawed, because a 6.0l Corvette can get as good as mpg as many 4-cyl turbos. And the worst example of a small displacement engine getting low mpg is an RX-8.
And the only people it will deter is those with lower income.
Don't judge the RX-8 on its displacement - but judge it on it's performance - a friend's Audi A4 3.2 gets the same mileage around town that I do in my 8. 16-17 BTW Atlanta 3.08 for premium. I drain $45.week in Gas and more of that in lunch. At 1/8 ton I think I can forgo some lunch.
I'm all for those with the most money having the nicest toys as long as it doesn't negatively impact others. Usually its just the opposite. The consumption of the wealthy benefits others. What is different about the current situation is that there is no longer much if any extra production capacity when it comes to oil. One person's excessive use will adversely effect others not to mention the CO2 he is putting in the atmosphere. Where I live there were drought conditions not too long ago. A moratorium was put on watering lawns and washing cars. What would you think about a person that flaunted these restrictions and took the attitude, "just fine me, I can afford it"?
someone: Right now oil is our only option for powering our vehicles and it is a limited resource that we all have to share.
kernick : This and every other country in the world for as long as the internal combbustion engine engine, has had people that could not afford gasoline or autos. This has varied from country to country based on relative wealth. Based on the available supply, cost and price, people who could afford oil and gasoline drove, and those who made less drove less or not at all. Explain why the current situation is any different? Millions of Americans could not afford gas before these increases.
Me; you are right.....and now that prices go higher...it is time to look for scapegoats. Well.....it is too hard to understand politics, economics, markets, demand, ...so I guess some people feel it is simple to just focus on attacking the larger vehicles...
someone: should people be able to use as much as they want just because they can afford to?
kernick: They always have. You can also fly a plane and drive a boat using hundreds of gallons of fuel if you want. People can go on all sorts of vacations, causing all sorts of jet fuel usage.
You are right again. I heard there was a guy in the delta who drove his small speedboat from Suisun Bay to San Francisco....and used about $500 worth of gas. He could have made the trip in a Ferrari for only $60. 150 miles roundtrip at 12 mpg x $3.5 / gal.
ANd some people just enjoy the ride and height of an SUV.
someone: Its clearly not a socially responsible thing to do and in a society sometimes we need to consider how our actions effect others.
kernick: you are welcome to compete economically with the rest of us. In the vast majority of the world, even in Communist China those who make/save more $ get the gas.
Me: YEp....they can certainly compete...or sell their car and get into a moped....like many people. I say :: If you cannot afford to eat lobster...don't buy it....do not disparage people who can , in this free society. At least be happy that you at least have a choice/opportunity to buy and eat lobster. Same thing applies to cars or gas or anything....
Even in China, free market has enabled millions to buy cars now...but many cannot even afford food. I was just there , and saw close up the effect of free market and the possitive side. Almost all people I spoke to loved the new freedoms and opportunities. Yes...they acknowledge that some people make it big...but they are happy that all have a chance..
Driving a big car/suv/truck is a choice, not a right.
agree...even driving is not a right...it is a privilege. WE all have a RIGHT to make a choice as to what we drive. In many countries where I have lived...people use public transit or bikes or mopeds. They would consider any 4 wheel vehicle extravagant.
Most other countries make do with much smaller cars on average than we do in the US. To them, we look like glutens and wasteful. Other countries make their choices based on economics because their energy cost are higher. It's okay to want a big car that your family can fit in, and if it guzzles more gas, than that's your choice. You can control how much you pay for gas just like everyone else, either drive less, switch to a smaller, more economical vehicle, change driving habits, or any combination of the these.
agree. while there are a group of people on this bandwagon who tout the benefits of an econo car....please BEWARE..!! Smaller cars are , in general, less safe than a larger car....!!!!
If one wants to save gas....then take a bus , IMO. Much safer and does save money.
Any tax such as you propose based on displacement would be flawed, because a 6.0l Corvette can get as good as mpg as many 4-cyl turbos. And the worst example of a small displacement engine getting low mpg is an RX-8.
Yes...the corvette 8 cylinder gets up to 29 mpg. My Acura TL is struggling in city with 17 mpg. I heard the worse car in terms of gas usage was RX8 also....most people getting 15 or 17 mpg mixed !!!!
BTW...when we lived in Colombia , the country banned or heavily taxed importation of V8 cars....so most people did not have them. But the rich still got them....not that there is anything wrong with that....since they paid for the right to drive them.
As Americans we have a lot of freedom of choice, which is great but not an absolute. We don't have the freedom to engage in behaviour that is detrimental to society as a whole. Obviously criminal acts fall into this category but behaviour that damages the environment and is contrary to our national and economic security can also qualify. IMO, our dependence on foreign oil represents a drain on our economy due to the outflow of wealth and it also represents economic vulnerability because we have limited control over these sources. High gas prices and limited supplies can have a staggering impact on our economy and the overall standard of living. To state that you have the right to impose this on others is the height of arrogance and ignorance. Restricting choices when it comes to behaviour that agravates this situation is not at all un-American. The fact that you equate excessive oil consumption to eating lobster shows that you just don't get it.
you: One person's excessive use will adversely effect others not to mention the CO2 he is putting in the atmosphere.
me: of course; we are in a closed system and everything anyone does affects others. (By the way "affect" is a verb; "effect" is a noun). What I am implying you and others to think about is why you consider this time any different than times in the past. People have been using more than an average share of energy and putting CO2 into the air during times of cheap gas and expensive gas. What makes this any more unique?
you: water is critical to life; gasoline is not. Every single person needs water; billions of people currently get along fine without gasoline. By the way, if people really wanted water couldn't they drill their own well? or pay to have a tanker of water delivered? Or if I was a rich person's neighbor, I might sell some of my share of water to them if the price was right.
Thanks for the grammar lesson but you are wrong. Effect can also be used as a transitional verb and in our current language is rarely incorrect. I do find that when a poster starts making these comments regarding grammar or spelling it is usually because he is having a difficult time defending his position based on merit.
I agree that putting CO2 into the atmosphere has not suddenly taken on more significance because of the current high prices. It is still a way that burning gasoline negatively impacts everyone in society. And the drivers of gas guzzlers aren't the only ones to blame. Everyone is at fault to varying degrees based on how much fuel they burn.
While everything we do will in all likelihood have an effect on others it is not always negative. In the case of gasoline consumption it definitely is. At least as far as Americans are concerned. While gasoline is not as critical as water the scarcity of it can certainly make life miserable and could ultimately be life threatening in an indirect way. Anyway, are you saying individual freedoms should only be limited in cases where you are causing a life threatening situation?
As Americans we have a lot of freedom of choice, which is great but not an absolute. We don't have the freedom to engage in behaviour that is detrimental to society as a whole. Obviously criminal acts fall into this category but behaviour that damages the environment and is contrary to our national and economic security can also qualify. IMO, our dependence on foreign oil represents a drain on our economy due to the outflow of wealth and it also represents economic vulnerability because we have limited control over these sources. High gas prices and limited supplies can have a staggering impact on our economy and the overall standard of living.
I agree with most of what you said above....
To state that you have the right to impose this on others is the height of arrogance and ignorance.
I never said anyone has a right to impose this on others. If you want to see who is imposing it...just take a loook in the mirror.....all of US. To say that SUV or large car drivers are imposing this on the American public is the height and epitome of ignorance and shortsightedness, IMO. It is you...and all the people who use gas...and all the geopolitical factors..that is causing the increase. If you do not understand it..and think it is only one group...then your ignornace is self evident.
Restricting choices when it comes to behaviour that agravates this situation is not at all un-American.
Sure... but I don't think the government is going to restrict larger cars...which are proven to be safer than smaller cars. Now if all you can see is gas and money...but you cannot see the safety of your family....then so much for your foresight. I would be willing to pay $5 a gallon for safety, if need be.
The fact that you equate excessive oil consumption to eating lobster shows that you just don't get it.
Nope....I have lived in many countries...speak 4 languages...and understand the situation. My question to you is:: 1- why do you want to put your family in a small car that is less safe?? 2- if you are using gas...why are you not taking public transportation, since that would be better for the rest of us ? 3- lobsters are part of the environment....and sometimes prices are high...sometimes lower. From a purely micro-economic standpoint, that is part of free market.
Now if you want to add national security, macroeconomics, etc....we can talk about that....too.
you: IMO, our dependence on foreign oil represents a drain on our economy due to the outflow of wealth and it also represents economic vulnerability because we have limited control over these sources. High gas prices and limited supplies can have a staggering impact on our economy and the overall standard of living. To state that you have the right to impose this on others is the height of arrogance and ignorance.
me: You could have copied this from someone in 1973? Or 1979 - was that the 2nd oil embargo? Again I think you ignore that people with money purchasing goods increases prices, and thus makes many goods unaffordable for the poor. This has occurred throughout history in all societies. Please tell me if you disagree that there were already are millions of people for the last 100 years in the U.S. who can not afford gasoline.
I agree that we are all part of the problem to varying degrees. There is no good amount of gasoline consumption. It is contrary to the best interest of American society and should be penalized. A very large gas tax would serve the purpose and it would penalize based on the magnitude of the offense. I would be negatively impacted by this tax but would have no problem paying it. In fact I would welcome it because I would feel that I was participating in a system that was expediting an ultimate solution. That being the transition from ICE powered vehicles.
As far as small cars being less safe. All the data I've seen indicates this is only really significant in very small cars, < 2500 lbs. After you hit 3000 lbs the added safety that comes with additional size is very little. The biggest safety feature a car possesses is the person behind the wheel.
Please tell me if you disagree that there were already are millions of people for the last 100 years in the U.S. who can not afford gasoline.
Of course that is true. You must agree that significantly higher fuel costs creates a drag on economic growth in this country. I believe that global oil supply system is stretched very close to capacity. In a system like this small changes in demand have a more profound impact on price. This is unlike your example of buying other goods where the supplier can fairly easily produce more. Or where you have the option of delaying your purchase until demand subsides. We really can't delay gasoline purchases.
I do find that when a poster starts making these comments regarding grammar or spelling it is usually because he is having a difficult time defending his position based on merit.
I agree...just like when you started to resort to name calling ....saying others are ignorant...when you have a difficult time defending your position based on merit.
I think we agree on the issue..at least 90 % of it. I am sorry I am straightforward...but I tend to confront the kneejerk reactions of car drivers who only blame SUV drivers....it is kinda like ""a teapot calling the kettle black...""
Again....this problem does not deserve fingerpointing...as that cobra guys does....but serious consideration from ALL of us. Of course,,,,it is much simpler to blame a group...and then get into our cars and drive everywhere...it feels good on your own conscience...but it does nothing for the common good.
We are getting screwed by big business and by a few ultra wealthy families who belong to a secret society who own and control the big banking houses and big businesses here in this country and abroad. These same individuals also have influence and control the U.S. economy and the world economy, and the world's banking system. Their ultimate goal is to "control" everything and everyone and to make all people their slaves for their own financial gains. These individuals only believe in accumulating "money" and "wealth" for themselves. It's all about the money. These individuals want to wipe out and to bring down the middle class to their knees to the verge of extinction for their own financial gains. They will do anything and everything to attain this goal. Their contribution to society has only been to cause financial turmoil around the world by bankrupting nations and their hard working inhabitants. Globalization is used as their secret weapon for the destruction and enslavement of mankind. They are damaging our great nation and the many other nations of the world. Their actions towards increasing oil prices will eventually lead to the destruction of our standard of living and financial well being and will eventually wipe us out as a middle class society.
I'm very much a capitalist but I'm not sure if I agree with your position that driving a gas guzzler should be a personal choice. Right now oil is our only option for powering our vehicles and it is a limited resource that we all have to share. Should people be able to use as much as they want just because they can afford to? Its clearly not a socially responsible thing to do and in a society sometimes we need to consider how our actions effect others.
Whether or not it SHOULD be a personal choice doesn't matter at this point. The point is that it IS a personal choice to drive a gas guzzler, and it's some of these very people who ARE driving the gas guzzlers who are very vocal in their complaints about high gas prices. The point I'm making is those who use the most should not be complaining about the associated costs. Complaining about high gas prices when you're a glutten user is being very hypocritical IMO.
If you don't like, do something about it! Let get real. How many of us see a single person commuting in their large SUV's, driving aggressively, on a daily basis on the road? I would bet at least HALF of them have only the driver in the vehicle 90% of the miles it's driven. Was it a wise choice they made when they bought their SUV when gas prices were affordable, only to complain when gas prices go up? Nope, it wasn't! :P
Maybe ignorant wasn't the best choice of words but it is not prudent to get in a bidding war for a limited supply of oil. Who will be the ultimate winners, who will be the ultimate losers? I think that with all the people in our country living paycheck to paycheck with maxed out credit cards and all the equity pulled out of their overvalued houses our economy is in a very precarious situation. I don't know what price gas will have to hit and for what period of time before the dominos start falling but I do believe it is a very real possibility. Gasoline is not like other goods and services that have elastic demand curves. As a country we have somewhat painted ourselves into a corner when it comes to our economy's dependence on oil. Conservation is the best way to buy time to figure this problem out. If the economy fails the fact that you were one of the last ones that could afford gas will probably not provide much satisfaction.
The point I'm making is those who use the most should not be complaining about the associated costs. Complaining about high gas prices when you're a glutten user is being very hypocritical IMO.
I agree.. ... those who bought large vehicles and SUvs and those who drive long distances , though they have a reason, should not complain....as prices were bound to rise. But we are all....ALL ......Gluttonous users of gasoline, in the objective view of the world.
If you don't like, do something about it! Let get real. How many of us see a single person commuting in their large SUV's, driving aggressively, on a daily basis on the road? I would bet at least HALF of them have only the driver in the vehicle 90% of the miles it's driven.
here I disagree....I see most vehicles....no matter what size...being driven by single drivers most of the time. Singling out minivan and SUV drivers is not objective. Go to any street corner...and you will see single drivers in cars....when they should be on motorcycles...or even better...mopeds.
In Taiwan...the majority of the population gets around in gas sipping mopeds...getting about 100 mpg or more. We should all commute that way. Any other way is a cop out ....saying you need all 3000 or 2000 pounds of metal to go to work.....
remember...even a honda accord gets only 19 mpg in city driving...
agree..since it is kinda distracting when names are called. But I saw that you were more of a thinking person...so I understand your point.
but it is not prudent to get in a bidding war for a limited supply of oil. Who will be the ultimate winners, who will be the ultimate losers? I think that with all the people in our country living paycheck to paycheck with maxed out credit cards and all the equity pulled out of their overvalued houses our economy is in a very precarious situation. I don't know what price gas will have to hit and for what period of time before the dominos start falling but I do believe it is a very real possibility. Gasoline is not like other goods and services that have elastic demand curves. As a country we have somewhat painted ourselves into a corner when it comes to our economy's dependence on oil. Conservation is the best way to buy time to figure this problem out. If the economy fails the fact that you were one of the last ones that could afford gas will probably not provide much satisfaction.
Here I agree with you 100% . Very objective, thoughtful and lucid. We ALL need to conserve. To tell you the truth....even Prius owners need to conserve. Their vehicles uses/takes more energy to produce...and takes a higher toll on the environment due to its batteries....
We must unite and all conserve. NO scapegoating....
OK...I am even willing to let those people vent...but hopefully afterwards they will get with the program.....let s get down and start conserving. ALL of US !!....and not just for now....but long term...!!!!!
So driving is a privilege. I have to disagree with this statement. For many of us, driving is simply a necessity, not a privilege. The entire country revolves around oil and automotive business. Our public transportation is deplorable. Most everything is delivered by large trucks.
How am I supposed to get to work? Somebody show me which bus, subway, or train I can get on! I cannot live 1 mile from work, because the cost of housing would be prohibitive. And I cannot ride a bicycle 20 miles each way to work everyday either. No subway, no train, no busses. Some privilege!
So driving is a privilege. I have to disagree with this statement.
YOu may disagree...and maybe to you it is a contrived or real necessity...but the fact is that all police departments and department of motor vehicles of all states consider DRIVING to be a privilege. That is why you are issued a license...to show you have the privilege. A RIGHT is given to you by law...and you do NOT need a license for a right or necessity.
For many of us, driving is simply a necessity, not a privilege. The entire country revolves around oil and automotive business. Our public transportation is deplorable. Most everything is delivered by large trucks.
Thanks....what you just said...and what fintail pointed out., about infrastructure being revolving around cheap gasoline....that is the problem !!! We don't have to live so far away from work. We need to use public transportation...NOW> .
How am I supposed to get to work? Somebody show me which bus, subway, or train I can get on! I cannot live 1 mile from work, because the cost of housing would be prohibitive. And I cannot ride a bicycle 20 miles each way to work everyday either. No subway, no train, no busses. Some privilege!
This is correct. It is partly lack of vision on both all the leaders and planners for the past 30 years....and also the lack of vision of us commoners. We should have insisted on living in high rises or apartments...instead of tract homes ..... I know....I live in one too....and this adds to the problem....
Our car culture and consumerism has caused this problem of high gas prices to come . Of course, if was going to come anyway....but the rise of competing nations that wanted the same type of lifestyle....caused the problem to occur earlier...
Did you know that when I was in a government vehicle in Shenzhen , Guangdong, in 1982....it was a government agent driving. There were NO private cars, and no taxis. Very few buses. Everyone in China were on Bicycles...literally.
now move forward only 20 years....and There are simply traffic jams in all cities....even the relatively remote ones !!!!! Remember, we are talking about a country with 5 times the population of the US ....all trying to drive....today !!!
Affect and effect have no senses in common. As a verb affect is most commonly used in the sense of “to influence” (how smoking affects health). Effect means “to bring about or execute.”
All this hand wringing and whining cracks me up. If you don't want to pay the price for gas, conserve or don't buy it. If your upside down on your now literally "worth less" gas guzzling SUV, it's not the oil companies fault. The market controls the price of oil not the oil companies. The govt dividing up profits differently will not lower gas prices. I'd argue that this situation is good for our country. It's going to force introspection. I'm just glad that there are less monster trucks and SUVs on the road. $3 gas, no problem when you drive a Honda Civic '97 with 176k miles. I'll continue conserving and drive all I want. $3 gas as of today in NE Pa.
How about hitch hiking? I worked with a guy in Alaska that hitch hiked from Girdwood to Anchorage every day for 3 years. That is 32 miles each way summer and winter. He lived in an abandoned cabin with no plumbing or electricity. He was so happy when he got far enough ahead to buy an old beater to drive to work.
Yes driving IS a privilege. Get a couple DUIs and you will find out.
All this hand wringing and whining cracks me up. If you don't want to pay the price for gas, conserve or don't buy it. If your upside down on your now literally "worth less" gas guzzling SUV, it's not the oil companies fault. The market controls the price of oil not the oil companies. The govt dividing up profits differently will not lower gas prices. I'd argue that this situation is good for our country. It's going to force introspection. I'm just glad that there are less monster trucks and SUVs on the road. $3 gas, no problem when you drive a Honda Civic '97 with 176k miles.
my point exactly. We all made it what it is. We are going to make it worse tomorrow by driving to Walmart or Costco tomorrow..and buying that foreign made plastic item that we don;t need. The big picture is this: our money goes to the foreign country...who uses oil to make the plastic item...and now that country has more reserves to buy oil that was meant for us, making gas more expensive.
And we shouldn't have driven to walmart in the first place...
but it will take about $7 / gal , to shock us out of our habits...and then the US will go into a depression/recession, since no one is going out or buying much......
sigh....
I wish we could all buy more expensive doodads made here in US....
(me)If you don't like, do something about it! Let get real. How many of us see a single person commuting in their large SUV's, driving aggressively, on a daily basis on the road? I would bet at least HALF of them have only the driver in the vehicle 90% of the miles it's driven. (you)here I disagree....I see most vehicles....no matter what size...being driven by single drivers most of the time. Singling out minivan and SUV drivers is not objective. Go to any street corner...and you will see single drivers in cars....when they should be on motorcycles...or even better...mopeds.
You disagree that better choices could have been made by single drivers in big vehicles that suck a lot of gas? Being on motorcycles or mopeds maybe a bit extreme given our current transportation systems of roadways and urban/rural sprawl, but BETTER choices could still be made to reduce consumption! We don't have to go from one extreme to another to make an impact. Granted, riding moped would really be a great solution, but that's unrealistic today.
I've heard that "driving is a privilege" mantra before and frankly I don't see what the big deal is. Call driving whatever you want, call it a loaf of bread it. The fact remains that the limitations place on it are the same as limitations placed on things that many people would categorize as rights. You need a license to own a gun and the state can take this license away if you don't abide by the rules. You need to be 18 and register in order to vote and this can also be revoked should you commit a felony. Basically its a big argument about semantics. I personally feel that the whole driving is a privilege notion was probably started by parents. They seem to be the ones that grant privileges so they have something to take away as punishment. And it makes a good catch phrase that might stick in a kids mind. Kind of like, "just say no".
I didn't say they had common uses. I said that effect can be used as a noun or a transitional verb. From m-w.com here's usage examples.
2 a : to bring about often by surmounting obstacles : ACCOMPLISH b : to put into operation the duty of the legislature to effect the will of the citizens>
In my post I used it as in example b. I'm the first to admit that I make frequent grammar and spelling errors. This just isn't one of them. I actually feel kind of foolish defending it but I'd probably feel more foolish had I brought it up in the first place.
With human nature being what it is I don't think we are capable of imposing sacrifice on ourselves. Many if not most of us will always put our personal interests above the common good. That is not necessarily a bad philosophy as long as you really know what is in your best interest. We've become a country that doesn't believe in delayed gratification. How many of us are in debt up to our eyeballs and now regret some of the indulgences we borrowed to enjoy? I'd say quite a few yet if one of these people suddenly got a new credit card in the mail I suspect their eyes would get big and be immediately thinking of the next thing to buy. Again, we tend to live in the present and our leaders cater to this mindset. They have taught us to believe in the quick fix that doesn't require sacrifice. Because that's what we want to hear and that's what gets the approval ratings and the votes. Its time for a reality check. The problem we are in is going to require a lot of sacrifice for a long time. It will suck!! The only alternative that would be worse would be to continue to do nothing. Our politicians need to dispense with non-productive partisan bickering and be willing to sacrifice their political future and force the hard choices upon us. Whether we know it or not this is in our best personal interest.
Another example, Social Security/Medicaid solvency. Did that problem suddenly go away? Is it going to be easier to solve in 20 years?
Our system is broken in a lot of ways. One of the most frustrating things is that I don't see any way that the individual can play much of a role in fixing it. I read that Alan Greenspan believes there will be the emergence of a viable Independent party in the near future. If that's true maybe it will shake things up in a positive way. At least its something to hope for.
Ain't no way. The two major parties have so many voters who feel they will benefit from whatever handout is offered in each electoral contest that there's no way the new party can gain enough votes. And add in the amnesty forgiving felony entry for illegal immigrants who will vote for one of the two whoever they feel did the most for them... ain't no way to break the control of the two parties. It's like getting CEO's pay back in line with workers ala Japan and other countries.
Comments
City rating would be more complicated. A combination of 35 mph stretch with stop lights every half mile, followed by 40 mph stretch with stop lights every mile, and longer for 45 mph (done for cold AND warm starts and then averaged) may be fairly close to reality. If need be, throw in some downtown driving as well.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Even along these lines I do think the EPA needs to make some adjustment to the ratings that hybrids are getting. I've never driven one but apparently most drivers aren't getting the mileage improvement that they expected.
Rocky
Rocky
It's putting the hurt on people, so there's a lot of chatter about it at work. But shoot, a lot of the complaining is stupid. If you bought an SUV to feel safe or tow your boat, especially if you bought it recently, you knew what the tradeoff would be. I overheard someone saying they were reducing their 401(k) contributions so they could keep up their recreational boating - fine with me but don't expect any sympathy.
Rocky
I want people to face up to their own choices. If you buy a luxury car, you're going to have high car payments. If you buy a gas guzzler, it's going to guzzle gas. I hope to have a gas guzzling sports car one day, and every time I fill up I hope that I'll think "hey, it's worth it!"
You take the good with the bad. Or you take the good and whine about the bad, and lose my respect.
you reap what you sow.
now wallow in it.
looking forward to gas cracking $3 here so i can watch the tank drivers wince.
Maybe you are okay with all of this ? I'm not. I'm tired of the ridiculous gouging at the pump and everywhere else. Unfortunatly I'm only one man with a opinion. I suppose I will continue to get gouged, and the wounds will continue to hurt because I'm not willing to have a 2 car garage with a Echo, and a prius in it. :mad:
Rocky
As long as we live under a capitalist system it's what I expect - since are willing to pay more for gas, we will! My econopolitical persuation is something different, so no I don't like any of what goes on in any part of the current world. But this oil situation sounds like a natural part of our system to me.
We can't do much about the political process that will make a significant difference in the short term, but we can control how much we spend on gas, and therefore contribute to the profits of big oil. :shades:
me: This and every other country in the world for as long as the internal combbustion engine engine, has had people that could not afford gasoline or autos. This has varied from country to country based on relative wealth. Based on the available supply, cost and price, people who could afford oil and gasoline drove, and those who made less drove less or not at all. Explain why the current situation is any different? Millions of Americans could not afford gas before these increases.
you: Should people be able to use as much as they want just because they can afford to?
me: They always have. You can also fly a plane and drive a boat using hundreds of gallons of fuel if you want. People can go on all sorts of vacations, causing all sorts of jet fuel usage.
you: Its clearly not a socially responsible thing to do and in a society sometimes we need to consider how our actions effect others.
me: you are welcome to compete economically with the rest of us. In the vast majority of the world, even in Communist China those who make/save more $ get the gas.
And the only people it will deter is those with lower income.
kernick : This and every other country in the world for as long as the internal combbustion engine engine, has had people that could not afford gasoline or autos. This has varied from country to country based on relative wealth. Based on the available supply, cost and price, people who could afford oil and gasoline drove, and those who made less drove less or not at all. Explain why the current situation is any different? Millions of Americans could not afford gas before these increases.
Me; you are right.....and now that prices go higher...it is time to look for scapegoats. Well.....it is too hard to understand politics, economics, markets, demand, ...so I guess some people feel it is simple to just focus on attacking the larger vehicles...
someone: should people be able to use as much as they want just because they can afford to?
kernick: They always have. You can also fly a plane and drive a boat using hundreds of gallons of fuel if you want. People can go on all sorts of vacations, causing all sorts of jet fuel usage.
You are right again. I heard there was a guy in the delta who drove his small speedboat from Suisun Bay to San Francisco....and used about $500 worth of gas. He could have made the trip in a Ferrari for only $60. 150 miles roundtrip at 12 mpg x $3.5 / gal.
ANd some people just enjoy the ride and height of an SUV.
someone: Its clearly not a socially responsible thing to do and in a society sometimes we need to consider how our actions effect others.
kernick: you are welcome to compete economically with the rest of us. In the vast majority of the world, even in Communist China those who make/save more $ get the gas.
Me: YEp....they can certainly compete...or sell their car and get into a moped....like many people. I say :: If you cannot afford to eat lobster...don't buy it....do not disparage people who can , in this free society. At least be happy that you at least have a choice/opportunity to buy and eat lobster. Same thing applies to cars or gas or anything....
Even in China, free market has enabled millions to buy cars now...but many cannot even afford food. I was just there , and saw close up the effect of free market and the possitive side. Almost all people I spoke to loved the new freedoms and opportunities. Yes...they acknowledge that some people make it big...but they are happy that all have a chance..
agree...even driving is not a right...it is a privilege. WE all have a RIGHT to make a choice as to what we drive. In many countries where I have lived...people use public transit or bikes or mopeds. They would consider any 4 wheel vehicle extravagant.
Most other countries make do with much smaller cars on average than we do in the US. To them, we look like glutens and wasteful. Other countries make their choices based on economics because their energy cost are higher. It's okay to want a big car that your family can fit in, and if it guzzles more gas, than that's your choice. You can control how much you pay for gas just like everyone else, either drive less, switch to a smaller, more economical vehicle, change driving habits, or any combination of the these.
agree. while there are a group of people on this bandwagon who tout the benefits of an econo car....please BEWARE..!! Smaller cars are , in general, less safe than a larger car....!!!!
If one wants to save gas....then take a bus , IMO. Much safer and does save money.
Yes...the corvette 8 cylinder gets up to 29 mpg. My Acura TL is struggling in city with 17 mpg. I heard the worse car in terms of gas usage was RX8 also....most people getting 15 or 17 mpg mixed !!!!
BTW...when we lived in Colombia , the country banned or heavily taxed importation of V8 cars....so most people did not have them. But the rich still got them....not that there is anything wrong with that....since they paid for the right to drive them.
me: of course; we are in a closed system and everything anyone does affects others. (By the way "affect" is a verb; "effect" is a noun). What I am implying you and others to think about is why you consider this time any different than times in the past. People have been using more than an average share of energy and putting CO2 into the air during times of cheap gas and expensive gas. What makes this any more unique?
you: water is critical to life; gasoline is not. Every single person needs water; billions of people currently get along fine without gasoline. By the way, if people really wanted water couldn't they drill their own well? or pay to have a tanker of water delivered? Or if I was a rich person's neighbor, I might sell some of my share of water to them if the price was right.
I agree that putting CO2 into the atmosphere has not suddenly taken on more significance because of the current high prices. It is still a way that burning gasoline negatively impacts everyone in society. And the drivers of gas guzzlers aren't the only ones to blame. Everyone is at fault to varying degrees based on how much fuel they burn.
While everything we do will in all likelihood have an effect on others it is not always negative. In the case of gasoline consumption it definitely is. At least as far as Americans are concerned. While gasoline is not as critical as water the scarcity of it can certainly make life miserable and could ultimately be life threatening in an indirect way. Anyway, are you saying individual freedoms should only be limited in cases where you are causing a life threatening situation?
I agree with most of what you said above....
To state that you have the right to impose this on others is the height of arrogance and ignorance.
I never said anyone has a right to impose this on others. If you want to see who is imposing it...just take a loook in the mirror.....all of US. To say that SUV or large car drivers are imposing this on the American public is the height and epitome of ignorance and shortsightedness, IMO. It is you...and all the people who use gas...and all the geopolitical factors..that is causing the increase. If you do not understand it..and think it is only one group...then your ignornace is self evident.
Restricting choices when it comes to behaviour that agravates this situation is not at all un-American.
Sure... but I don't think the government is going to restrict larger cars...which are proven to be safer than smaller cars. Now if all you can see is gas and money...but you cannot see the safety of your family....then so much for your foresight. I would be willing to pay $5 a gallon for safety, if need be.
The fact that you equate excessive oil consumption to eating lobster shows that you just don't get it.
Nope....I have lived in many countries...speak 4 languages...and understand the situation. My question to you is::
1- why do you want to put your family in a small car that is less safe??
2- if you are using gas...why are you not taking public transportation, since that would be better for the rest of us ?
3- lobsters are part of the environment....and sometimes prices are high...sometimes lower. From a purely micro-economic standpoint, that is part of free market.
Now if you want to add national security, macroeconomics, etc....we can talk about that....too.
me: You could have copied this from someone in 1973? Or 1979 - was that the 2nd oil embargo? Again I think you ignore that people with money purchasing goods increases prices, and thus makes many goods unaffordable for the poor. This has occurred throughout history in all societies. Please tell me if you disagree that there were already are millions of people for the last 100 years in the U.S. who can not afford gasoline.
As far as small cars being less safe. All the data I've seen indicates this is only really significant in very small cars, < 2500 lbs. After you hit 3000 lbs the added safety that comes with additional size is very little. The biggest safety feature a car possesses is the person behind the wheel.
Of course that is true. You must agree that significantly higher fuel costs creates a drag on economic growth in this country. I believe that global oil supply system is stretched very close to capacity. In a system like this small changes in demand have a more profound impact on price. This is unlike your example of buying other goods where the supplier can fairly easily produce more. Or where you have the option of delaying your purchase until demand subsides. We really can't delay gasoline purchases.
I agree...just like when you started to resort to name calling ....saying others are ignorant...when you have a difficult time defending your position based on merit.
:P
I think we agree on the issue..at least 90 % of it. I am sorry I am straightforward...but I tend to confront the kneejerk reactions of car drivers who only blame SUV drivers....it is kinda like ""a teapot calling the kettle black...""
Again....this problem does not deserve fingerpointing...as that cobra guys does....but serious consideration from ALL of us. Of course,,,,it is much simpler to blame a group...and then get into our cars and drive everywhere...it feels good on your own conscience...but it does nothing for the common good.
They are damaging our great nation and the many other nations of the world. Their actions towards increasing oil prices will eventually lead to the destruction of our standard of living and financial well being and will eventually wipe us out as a middle class society.
Whether or not it SHOULD be a personal choice doesn't matter at this point. The point is that it IS a personal choice to drive a gas guzzler, and it's some of these very people who ARE driving the gas guzzlers who are very vocal in their complaints about high gas prices. The point I'm making is those who use the most should not be complaining about the associated costs. Complaining about high gas prices when you're a glutten user is being very hypocritical IMO.
If you don't like, do something about it! Let get real. How many of us see a single person commuting in their large SUV's, driving aggressively, on a daily basis on the road? I would bet at least HALF of them have only the driver in the vehicle 90% of the miles it's driven. Was it a wise choice they made when they bought their SUV when gas prices were affordable, only to complain when gas prices go up? Nope, it wasn't! :P
I agree.. ... those who bought large vehicles and SUvs and those who drive long distances , though they have a reason, should not complain....as prices were bound to rise. But we are all....ALL ......Gluttonous users of gasoline, in the objective view of the world.
If you don't like, do something about it! Let get real. How many of us see a single person commuting in their large SUV's, driving aggressively, on a daily basis on the road? I would bet at least HALF of them have only the driver in the vehicle 90% of the miles it's driven.
here I disagree....I see most vehicles....no matter what size...being driven by single drivers most of the time. Singling out minivan and SUV drivers is not objective. Go to any street corner...and you will see single drivers in cars....when they should be on motorcycles...or even better...mopeds.
In Taiwan...the majority of the population gets around in gas sipping mopeds...getting about 100 mpg or more. We should all commute that way. Any other way is a cop out ....saying you need all 3000 or 2000 pounds of metal to go to work.....
remember...even a honda accord gets only 19 mpg in city driving...
Maybe ignorant wasn't the best choice of words
agree..since it is kinda distracting when names are called. But I saw that you were more of a thinking person...so I understand your point.
but it is not prudent to get in a bidding war for a limited supply of oil. Who will be the ultimate winners, who will be the ultimate losers? I think that with all the people in our country living paycheck to paycheck with maxed out credit cards and all the equity pulled out of their overvalued houses our economy is in a very precarious situation. I don't know what price gas will have to hit and for what period of time before the dominos start falling but I do believe it is a very real possibility. Gasoline is not like other goods and services that have elastic demand curves. As a country we have somewhat painted ourselves into a corner when it comes to our economy's dependence on oil. Conservation is the best way to buy time to figure this problem out. If the economy fails the fact that you were one of the last ones that could afford gas will probably not provide much satisfaction.
Here I agree with you 100% . Very objective, thoughtful and lucid. We ALL need to conserve. To tell you the truth....even Prius owners need to conserve. Their vehicles uses/takes more energy to produce...and takes a higher toll on the environment due to its batteries....
We must unite and all conserve. NO scapegoating....
OK...I am even willing to let those people vent...but hopefully afterwards they will get with the program.....let s get down and start conserving. ALL of US !!....and not just for now....but long term...!!!!!
How am I supposed to get to work? Somebody show me which bus, subway, or train I can get on! I cannot live 1 mile from work, because the cost of housing would be prohibitive. And I cannot ride a bicycle 20 miles each way to work everyday either. No subway, no train, no busses. Some privilege!
So driving is a privilege. I have to disagree with this statement.
YOu may disagree...and maybe to you it is a contrived or real necessity...but the fact is that all police departments and department of motor vehicles of all states consider DRIVING to be a privilege. That is why you are issued a license...to show you have the privilege. A RIGHT is given to you by law...and you do NOT need a license for a right or necessity.
For many of us, driving is simply a necessity, not a privilege. The entire country revolves around oil and automotive business. Our public transportation is deplorable. Most everything is delivered by large trucks.
Thanks....what you just said...and what fintail pointed out., about infrastructure being revolving around cheap gasoline....that is the problem !!! We don't have to live so far away from work. We need to use public transportation...NOW> .
How am I supposed to get to work? Somebody show me which bus, subway, or train I can get on! I cannot live 1 mile from work, because the cost of housing would be prohibitive. And I cannot ride a bicycle 20 miles each way to work everyday either. No subway, no train, no busses. Some privilege!
This is correct. It is partly lack of vision on both all the leaders and planners for the past 30 years....and also the lack of vision of us commoners. We should have insisted on living in high rises or apartments...instead of tract homes ..... I know....I live in one too....and this adds to the problem....
Our car culture and consumerism has caused this problem of high gas prices to come . Of course, if was going to come anyway....but the rise of competing nations that wanted the same type of lifestyle....caused the problem to occur earlier...
Did you know that when I was in a government vehicle in Shenzhen , Guangdong, in 1982....it was a government agent driving. There were NO private cars, and no taxis. Very few buses. Everyone in China were on Bicycles...literally.
now move forward only 20 years....and There are simply traffic jams in all cities....even the relatively remote ones !!!!! Remember, we are talking about a country with 5 times the population of the US ....all trying to drive....today !!!
And we ....us americans...made it possible.!!
From dictionary.com
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
How about hitch hiking? I worked with a guy in Alaska that hitch hiked from Girdwood to Anchorage every day for 3 years. That is 32 miles each way summer and winter. He lived in an abandoned cabin with no plumbing or electricity. He was so happy when he got far enough ahead to buy an old beater to drive to work.
Yes driving IS a privilege. Get a couple DUIs and you will find out.
my point exactly. We all made it what it is. We are going to make it worse tomorrow by driving to Walmart or Costco tomorrow..and buying that foreign made plastic item that we don;t need. The big picture is this: our money goes to the foreign country...who uses oil to make the plastic item...and now that country has more reserves to buy oil that was meant for us, making gas more expensive.
And we shouldn't have driven to walmart in the first place...
but it will take about $7 / gal , to shock us out of our habits...and then the US will go into a depression/recession, since no one is going out or buying much......
sigh....
I wish we could all buy more expensive doodads made here in US....
(you)here I disagree....I see most vehicles....no matter what size...being driven by single drivers most of the time. Singling out minivan and SUV drivers is not objective. Go to any street corner...and you will see single drivers in cars....when they should be on motorcycles...or even better...mopeds.
You disagree that better choices could have been made by single drivers in big vehicles that suck a lot of gas? Being on motorcycles or mopeds maybe a bit extreme given our current transportation systems of roadways and urban/rural sprawl, but BETTER choices could still be made to reduce consumption! We don't have to go from one extreme to another to make an impact. Granted, riding moped would really be a great solution, but that's unrealistic today.
here's usage examples.
2 a : to bring about often by surmounting obstacles : ACCOMPLISH b : to put into operation the duty of the legislature to effect the will of the citizens>
In my post I used it as in example b. I'm the first to admit that I make frequent grammar and spelling errors. This just isn't one of them. I actually feel kind of foolish defending it but I'd probably feel more foolish had I brought it up in the first place.
Another example, Social Security/Medicaid solvency. Did that problem suddenly go away? Is it going to be easier to solve in 20 years?
About 99% of our elected officials spend most of their energy on the next campaign and election. No time for meaningful law making.
Ain't no way. The two major parties have so many voters who feel they will benefit from whatever handout is offered in each electoral contest that there's no way the new party can gain enough votes. And add in the amnesty forgiving felony entry for illegal immigrants who will vote for one of the two whoever they feel did the most for them... ain't no way to break the control of the two parties. It's like getting CEO's pay back in line with workers ala Japan and other countries.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,