Fuel Economy and Oil Dependency

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Comments

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    If I start speculating on hidden agendas

    I don't think the agenda is hard to figure out for either side. The one wants to maintain the status quo with negative economic growth, the other no restrictions on growth. The middle ground is going the way of the middle class. Or the haves want to keep control over the have nots. The elitist view is, I am entitled to drive around in my 6 Suburbans you little people need to get a Yugo to cut GHG.
  • kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    rorr: Why do we take for granted that a warming trend is, by definition, bad?

    me: I have asked this many times before myself. I can see a warming Earth may cause some land to become uninhabitable but I can also see more areas becoming habitable. Right now there are vast stretches of Canada and Asia where only a few people scratch out an existence, and want to live.

    Living in NH as I do, I know that the "typical" day is too cold - below my minimum comfort level of 70F. Consequentially I run my wood-stove 8 - 9 months per year, which creates CO2. And my neighbors use lots of oil and propane to heat their houses.

    Thus my personal experience is that the Earth is too cold, and I'd like to see it much warmer. My preference therefore is not to want to limit my CO2 emissions.

    Here's the basic issue to this question though. If you ask the billions of people on this planet if they want a car, 99% will answer yes, as it is the best form of transport invented. And how much do they want to drive - quite a bit (if we had the money and supply). And since there is no current replacement for oil/gasoline for the hundreds of millions of autos built and being built, oil will need to be burnt.

    All forms of hydrocarbon fuels on this earth will continue to be burnt until they are exhausted, civilization comes to an end, or we come up with an advanced nuclear energy.
  • rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    "If there is any good to come of global warming you will not see it on mainstream news. They only want to portray the bad side of life."

    Correct.

    "The worst part is the whole GHG thing is a political tool. Has very little to do with science and a lot to do with fear mongering and manipulating elections."

    Really? You don't say......

    I thought that fear mongering was purely the domain of the GOP (he says sarcastically....)
  • rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    "I think that climate change of any kind is disruptive if it occurs too quickly."

    OK, I can buy that.

    But how quickly is TOO quickly? And just how much HAS it gone up over the last century (because I've seen numbers all over the map regarding the severity of the increase and the rate of increase).

    BTW - I saw a little demonstration of the effects of CO2 as a GHG once on TV. The demonstration entailed a couple of empty 3liter soda bottles. One was filled with fresh air, sealed and left in the sun with a temperature probe. The second was filled with CO2, sealed and left in the sun with a temperature probe.

    Over the course of several hours, SONOFAGUN, sure enough, the temperature in the CO2 filled bottle was, in fact, a couple of degrees higher than the other bottle. Wow, was I impressed....

    Until I realize that the % of CO2 in our atmosphere varies from around 0.03% to around 0.06% and with the 'massive' increases in CO2 emmissions these figures may jump up to 0.04% to 0.07%......and that bottle used in the 'demonstration' was probably close to 50% CO2.....
  • tpetpe Member Posts: 2,342
    Are you disputing the corellation between CO2 levels in the atmosphere and global temperatures? I thought that was one area of common ground. By that I mean as far back as scientists have been able to chronicle, higher than average levels of CO2 have always accompanied higher than average temperatures. It was my opinion that the disagreement involved whether or not human activity is having any effect on these CO2 levels.

    Actually I wouldn't mind seeing temperatures go up about 3 degrees. I live in So. Maryland and we get about 6 snowfalls a year. It seems that everytime we are right above the snow/rain boundary. A few degrees should push that boundary a little north and I would almost never have to deal with snow.
  • rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    "Are you disputing the corellation between CO2 levels in the atmosphere and global temperatures?"

    No. I'm disputing the MAGNITUDE of the corellation. And given the huge range in predicted temperature increases (and rate of temperature increases), many scientists do as well.

    BTW - one may ask how they know what the CO2 levels were in the past; afterall, we can't take air samples from 100-200-500 years ago, right?

    Wrong. By analyzing ice cores, scientists can get a pretty good idea of what those old CO2 levels were. And plenty of evidence has been circulated showing a marked correlation between CO2 levels and the advent of the industrial revolution.

    Hmmmm, but there may be a problem with the ice-core CO2 levels.....

    http://www.warwickhughes.com/icecore/
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    CO2 is not even what would be the direct cause of significant warming, if it were to occur. Water vapor is the major factor in predictions of warming.

    The models are based on increased CO2 casusing a small amount of warming and this results in more water vapor in the atmosphere and this warms things a bit more and this results in even more water vapor in the atmosphere...

    The weather is not even predictable enough that they could figure out that there was plenty of time to play a ball game before any significant rain came in NY last night ;) . These global climate models are far more complex, reality is the actual effects of increased CO2 are not known.
  • jaxs1jaxs1 Member Posts: 2,697
    I drove a 4 cylinder rental Accord and it was great in town, but bumpy on the highway. Too rough of a ride to deal with for 3 hours or more a day.
    Versa owners are reporting barely cracking 30 MPG in the real world.
    The Corolla's engine is quite noisy and the ride may be rough at 70 MPH on a wavy, worn highway. A new, nicer Corolla may be out in a year.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    How we get 19.5 lbs of CO2 from burning 7 lbs of gasoline.

    Perhaps because the weight of the oxygen in CO2 (which comes from the air) is more than double the weight of the Carbon?
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,054
    does a cubic foot of air weigh? I know it's probably infintesimal, but when you figure that a small carburetor can probably suck down 300-400 cubic feet per minute (I think the 2-bbl carb on my '68 Dart is a 390 CFM model), and I'm sure that today's engines are probably no different with regards to air intake, then those infintesimal amounts will add up.
  • tpetpe Member Posts: 2,342
    Air isn't as light as you think. Its just the fact that air is floating in air that creates the illusion of weightlessness. For example, how much does water seem to weigh when you're under water?
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,054
    Google it I guess! According to this page, an "average" cubic foot of air weighs 0.0807 pounds. So if I'm doing my math right (and I've been known not to :blush: ) it looks like it takes roughly 198 cubic feet of air to weigh one pound.

    That might not sound like a lot at first, but when you think about a car sucking down 400 cubic feet of air per minute, that's about two pounds per minute it's taking in. Or about 120 pounds per hour.
  • rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    "So if I'm doing my math right (and I've been known not to ) it looks like it takes roughly 198 cubic feet of air to weigh one pound."

    LOL!

    Andre, 0.0807 lbs./cf = about 12.4 cf/lb (just take the inverse of 0.0807).

    So, 12.4 cf of air = 1 pound.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    Yes, it's pretty simple chemistry.

    A molecule of carbon weighs about 12. Gasoline is about 85% carbon, so 14 pounds of gasoline would contain 12 pounds of carbon.

    When burned completely, each carbon molecule results in a molecule of CO2 . Each molecule of CO2 weighs about 44. So 12 pounds of carbon (14 pounds of gasoline) should result in about 44 pounds of CO2. Therefore, the weight of CO2 is about 3.1 times the weight of the gasoline (44 pounds CO2 divided by 14 pounds gasoline).

    A gallon of gasoline actually weighs about 5.6 to 6.5 pounds, not 7...so a gallon of gasoline should create about 17.5 to 20 pounds of CO2.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,054
    Damn...must be this new math thing that's confusing me. :blush: Either that or not enough coffee yet this morning.

    I thought something didn't seem right though in my calculation. If it really took 198 cubic feet of air to get to one pound, I'm guessing hot air balloons, helium dirigibles, etc, wouldn't be able to displace enough air to get off the ground!
  • highenderhighender Member Posts: 1,358
    we all have about 16 pounds per square inch of pressure of air pressing against all of us ...right now....
    (unless you are reading this thread on top of Mt. Everest. )

    From a marine biology standpoint ...I can say that the warming of the Earth has caused massive die offs of coral reefs everywhere.

    We need to drive less, bunch up our errands, and convince people not to adopt the American way of life...and go back to bicycles and walking and mass transit, IMO.

    People in Venezuela, where gasoline is only 12 cents a gallon, are all flocking to get into SUVs....
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,517
    Not looking to fight...but didn't you/don't you have a Cayenne?

    On the subject of this thread, I wonder how much damage is caused by the thousands of gas powered leaf blowers that show up around here this time of year. Not to mention the noise pollution.

    And of course, the out of sequence stop lights my area enjoys cause harm too.
  • rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    "we all have about 16 pounds per square inch of pressure of air pressing against all of us ...right now.... "

    Actually, standard air pressure (at sea level) is 14.7 psi.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    You really need to run for city council and get those darn lights on a better sequence..... I do agree, it is probably something those in charge are not aware of. If they only realized how much fuel is wasted at stoplights.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,517
    There's a suggestion/request email box...no reply. I suspect phoning them would meet similar results.

    Kind of like Lily Tomlin at the phone company....we don't care, we don 't have to. It's not like these guys can face any accountability...
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    We should be cheering not jeering OPEC production cuts

    Dr. Irwin Kellner is chief economist for MarketWatch. He also is the Weller professor of economics at Hofstra University and chief economist for North Fork Bank.
  • tpetpe Member Posts: 2,342
    Actually a lot of people are saying it. Unfortunately getting leading economists onboard with this idea isn't all that important. Afterall, what do they know? What's important is getting Joe Bubba sixpack with his 400 hp, 12 mpg hemi truck to support this idea. That's unlikely to happen in a country that believes cheap gas is a birthright. Yee Haa, time to fire up the truck and go pick up some groceries.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/08/business/yourmoney/08view.html?ei=5090&en=3a74- - 9625ac447e79&ex=1317960000&adxnnl=1&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss&adxnnlx=11605068- - 33-EzJLANskiHD/v7ILiCpsIA
  • highenderhighender Member Posts: 1,358
    fin:

    Yes..I do have a cayenne...which does a lot for what I consider " my usage of gasoline" . DOes it waste gas ? I guess it is all in the eye of beholder , eh ? Let's just say I am not wasting any more gas then the guy in the small car , idling while waiting for his friends.

    I am driving it less now....only on long trips or family trips. Just bought a Jetta TDi diesel, and gonna put biodiesel mixed with some regular diesel in it....kinda wean off the fossil fuel, a little bit, at least.

    Yes..leaf blowers and out of sequence lights are all contributing..as welll as low pressured tires, gunning the engine, mindless idling the engine, cruising , etc....

    I am thinking about getting the home biodiesel kit, but not sure as to its safety.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Avoid Idling to warm up car on those cold mornings

    "If you actually idle your car for more than 10 seconds, you're wasting fuel," says Quentin Chiotti, air program director at Pollution Probe, a Canadian environmental watchdog group.

    "That's a shockingly short amount of time."

    An average idling gas engine burns 3.5 litres of fuel per hour. So if gas was selling at 85.9 cents per litre, in the 10 minutes you spent idling in the Tim Hortons lineup, you just threw away 50 cents.

    If you did that five days a week, waiting for that morning coffee would cost you about $130 over a year.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Think about this. We started our four 1 ton Ford diesels at 5:30 AM and did not shut them off until 5:30 PM for about 8 months of the year. They all had idle monitors that kicked them up to 1600 RPM to keep them warm. Life in the Arctic. The cost of doing business in the oil patch. Many days they would not be driven more than 4-5 miles.

    PS
    The 10 second goes against some auto manufacturers requirements. Some cars need to run at least 30 seconds on a cold morning for the transmission fluid to properly circulate. Many cars with turbos should be idled about a minute before they shut down also.
  • highenderhighender Member Posts: 1,358
    "we all have about 16 pounds per square inch of pressure of air pressing against all of us ...right now.... "

    ""Actually, standard air pressure (at sea level) is 14.7 psi. ""

    so that may be the best example of global warming, eh? the warmer molecules are less dense, and causing less pressure... ;) ?

    J/K////

    You are right, it is 14.7 psi ...give or take ....
  • rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    "so that may be the best example of global warming, eh?"

    Partially correct.

    Actually, this is simply evidence that our atmosphere is slowly bleeding away into outer space. From ice core data, we know that 200 years ago the atmospheric pressure was closer to 20psi. Eventually, it will get too thin to keep the excess heat in and the whole planet will snap directly into an ice-age.
    .
    .
    .
    ;)
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    What ? :surprise: When do they predict this to happen ? :surprise:

    Rocky
  • rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    The instant the next R is sworn in as President, the rest of the atmosphere will bleed away, according to the latest computer models. You'll just THINK that giant sucking sound is coming from Washington.......

    ;);););)
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    LOL, Okay.... :D

    Rocky
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,242

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  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,054
    the 2006+ Civic would serve as a long distance commuter car? It's still a small car but has a fairly lanky 106" wheelbase, which might help give it a smoother, better-balanced ride than cars like the Corolla, Versa, etc.

    FWIW my uncle has a 2003 Corolla, and commutes about 120-150 miles per day, depending on where his company sends him. He averages 34-38 mpg in mostly highway, albeit often stop-and-go, ground to a rush-hour halt traffic. He borrowed my Intrepid for about a week once, when his car had to go in the body shop, and I think he was averaging about 26-28 mpg with it.
  • ray80ray80 Member Posts: 1,655
    Not as far as spending more time on the road, but we have sorta flex hours (By 2 hours) and I get in early (earlier then flex allows) and leave at earliest time to avoid the real rush hour(s) stuff.
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,592
    The Article lacks some basic information. While it says that the number of people commuting over an hour every day (I presume thats a one way commute) increased by 50% but doesn't give any other numbers. Was it just 2% of the population and now its 3% or is it more like 20% to 30%?

    It also says that fewer than 1/2 have a commute of 20 minutes or less. Lets be honest how far can you get in 20 minutes in rush hour traffic?

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,054
    I notice I've been running into more traffic than normal on my short 3.5 mile commute. Sometimes it takes me 15 minutes to get to work! :P

    I tried to talk them into letting me telecommute 1 or 2 days a week, but they wouldn't go for it. I tried to stress the fact that most of what I do is on a computer, and can be done from home and if they really needed me in the office I could be there in 10-15 minutes, but it still didn't sway them.

    So what I've been doing instead is just flat-out taking off about one day per week. I have a ton of leave saved up, and might as well use it.

    I doubt if I'll be moving anytime soon, either. At 3.5 miles away, there's no sense in trying to move closer to work. And with the way house prices are, I don't think I could afford to sell my place and buy another! At least not another place with 4+ acres and a 4 car garage! So my commute will stay the same for the forseeable future.

    They're doing some construction work on the roads though, and re-routing one of them. It'll be interesting to see if it does any good or not.
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,592
    I notice I've been running into more traffic than normal on my short 3.5 mile commute. Sometimes it takes me 15 minutes to get to work!

    On behalf of me and all others who have to drive 1/2 hour or more to get to work I say unto you "Go take a hike". ;)

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Automakers combine for total of seven vehicles in government's annual top-10 efficiency ratings.

    http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061018/AUTO01/610180332/1148-

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Car, truck owners rate real-world fuel efficiency

    http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061018/BUSINESS01/610180331/10- 14

    Rocky

    P.S. This one should stir the pot a lil' more :D
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,709
    but sometimes drive to work...okay, all the time I drive to work. I live 4 blocks from my work!

    I am seriously contemplating walking the four block commute starting tomorrow. And the population of the town I live in is around 3,700.

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    That's an OPINION PIECE from a paper which has always cast a "cynical eye" toward hybrids.

    With 12 more hybrid cars trucks and SUVs on pace to hit the road by the end of model year 2008, it seems like his opinion will be in the minority.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Not much news in that "news" article, but if you visit the fueleconomy.gov website and the car you are interested in has a lot of respondents, you DO get a pretty good idea of how your fuel mileage will be.

    Even next year when they revise the way they test the cars for fuel economy, nothing will change as far as peoples' mileage varying heavily from the numbers on the window. However, they will probably all be a little more satisfied, because there will be more of a likelihood that the mileage they actually get will be higher than the numbers on the sticker.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • jaxs1jaxs1 Member Posts: 2,697
    You may actually be harming your car with that super short commute. It never even warms up.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 20,806
    too bad a bicycle wouldn't work. i understand riding on the side of the road might not work where you are.
    2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 20,806
    maybe i will post i get 100 mpg with my v8 explorer. :surprise:
    2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,709
    truedat. Tomorrow I will start walking the 4 block commute. This is so nice compared to the Seattle area where I used to commute. There's no need to drive and SE Arizona's mornings are not that cold at all.

    Back then I drove 45 miles each way from the Skagit Valley north of Seattle to Everett, WA. The morning would take an hour and 15 minutes or so and the afternoon, with many people's rush hours merging in to the late afternoon, it could take me anywhere from an hour and a half to two hours because of the "rolling slowdowns". This small SE Arizona town I live in now is a welcome change commute-wise for me, as well as several other aspects of my life.

    A good change. ;)

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    WASHINGTON, D.C. — The Toyota Prius gas/electric hybrid topped the EPA's 2007 fuel economy list, with its 60 mpg city and 51 mpg highway ratings. The Lamborghini Murciélago was ranked the worst on the list, with a 9 mpg city and 14 mpg highway rating.

    http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=117191

    Rocky
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,054
    too bad a bicycle wouldn't work. i understand riding on the side of the road might not work where you are.

    Yeah, if I could ride a bike to work I would. Well, on the nice days at least. Unfortunately though, if the traffic didn't get me, a stray bullet might! :surprise:

    There are some people here at work who ride their bike in though, so it can be done. A few months ago though, someone did get struck and killed by a woman in an SUV, on the road just outside of work.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    We were discussing gas prices in Canada. This is a country that has way more oil than it needs for itself. Our number one importer of oil. Our demand for oil is fueling their sluggish economy back to life.

    Yet with their oil independence they are still subject to the ups and downs of the oil market. So what is to be gained by not importing oil?

    As more countries get into the oil business especially the Soviet Bloc countries we will have less of a volatile supply chain.

    The major reason for the price edging downward is the fact that OPEC does not have the clout they once had.

    VIENNA, Austria — Oil prices slipped below $60 a barrel Monday on doubts that OPEC would pursue proposed production cuts and as geopolitical concerns lifted.

    Light, sweet crude for December fell 89 cents to $59.86 a barrel in electronic trading on the New York Mercantile Exchange by afternoon in Europe. Brent crude fell by $1.10 to $59.98 on the ICE Futures exchange in London.


    http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/fn/4296931.html
  • occupant1occupant1 Member Posts: 412
    If you go to the EPA's website (www.fueleconomy.gov) you can also access user inputted data for the mileage they get on their personal vehicles. For example, my wife and I both drive Chevrolet Luminas. They are both rated 20/29. Mine averages closer to 20mpg. Hers does 23-25mpg. There is no reason for one car to do better than the other. I do almost all the driving in both cars, so they should get the same. But they don't. And that's why the EPA needs to add the YMMV text to their labels.
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