Fuel Economy and Oil Dependency

stever

And believe it or not, we also have a Speedometer Inflation discussion here.

boaz47

Thank you for your perspective. I know my bias and having driven the first generation Prius I was not impressed when I did my long uphill on ramp test. For a car at the price they charge for a prius I expect something more in motivation.

The comment from my wife pretty much sums up my opinion on the Prius. Is there a law that says they have to be ugly to save fuel? And having driven one up here where I live I can tell you it wallows in the corners. I don't have the same feeling about a Civic Hybrid or a Camry Hybrid. But I have never driven one in the mountains.

Remember I am not a city driver so highway miles mean more to me. I admit the new Prius answered many of the complaints I had about the Prius except it is an ugly carpenters hammer. I could see one as a commuter car but not a weekend car and that is simply a personal preference.

nippononly

the Camry hybrid wallows in the corners too. But it is the highest-rated midsize sedan for gas mileage.

The Civic hybrid is quite an impressive drive. If I were buying a hybrid, it would be that Civic.

Note that Camry and Civic hybrid sales are only a small part of the total sales of those models (12-20K annually), while Prius sold 181K last year. It is also the only one that is easily idenitifiable from any distance as a hybrid. What does this tell you?

Sure the folks buying them want to save gas, and of course, the Prius is the highest-rated model of all for fuel economy. But many are also buying them to make a visible statement, just like driving an Escalade is a statement (of a completely different, gas-guzzling, excessive-lifestyle variety!).

I think that as oil industry problems continue to reverberate around the world, causing all kinds of political problems, there will be a continuous stream of buyers wanting to make that statement. I applaud the sentiment, if not the purchase.

By contrast, buying an Explorer says what, you are still stuck in the 90s? :-P

boaz47

By contrast, buying an Explorer says what, you are still stuck in the 90s?

I never cared for the Explorer I had a Cherokee. But the Prius is the darling of the tree hugger. It does tell me who got their lunch money taken from them in Junior High. It is the nerd car and the one they drag out to show their commitment to change. But the Insight got a lot better fuel mileage and it never made it. I still wonder if the Prius makes any money. I have to admit it took a lot of commitment to sell almost all of the first generation at a loss.

Can you tow anything with a Prius? I know you have or had a 4runner for that task but I was always skeptical of vehicles that couldn't even tow a utility trailer.

nippononly

any evidence that Prius is rated for towing at all. But then that's not uncommon for smaller cars. I can't find a tow rating for my Matrix either, and that's about the same size.

Insight vs Prius: well, Honda couldn't escape the inescapable reality that 2-seat cars are destined to be niche models. Even 2-door 4-seat cars don't sell as well as 4-door 4-seat cars.

boaz47

Well as strange as the Insight was I couldn't ignore the 60-70 MPG part. It makes the Prius look like a gas hog. I had a friend that drove from here to Ventura three times a week. He did get 60 plus MPG. But as you said a two seater is a niche vehicle, much like the Smart? LOL Couldn't pass that up. But even I would love to see the days of cheap gas return and realize they may be gone. But they will have to come up with something more practical, and better looking, than a Prius. As much as it pains me to say it, if they ever made a CR-V diesel I could see getting a little car that cost more the 20K.

lemko

...getting an Insight as a daily commuter car as I do most of my driving in the city. I dig the cool skirted wheels and the car's bullet-like appearance. The current edition of "Collectible Automobile" even featured the Insight in its "Future Collectibles" section. I'm sure used Insights are still rare and expensive and I'm not sure how reliable their hybrid drivetrains are after all these years.

1stpik

I looked at the Honda Insight in 2000 when I was shopping for a new car.

It was too small, had too much road noise, and it cost $20,000. The fuel efficiency wasn't really a factor, because gas cost $1.25/gal. The only advantage was that it could go 500 miles between fill-ups, which is good for road trips. But the agony of spending hours on the highway in a tiny, noisy car outweighed the convenience of the extended range.

I didn't buy one then, and I wouldn't buy one now, even with gas at $3. The car is just impractical for daily use.

I did spend $22,000 on a Civic Hybrid, because I saw value in it. A $2,100 tax credit, 47 mpg, it seats 4 comfortably and stays quiet on the road.

That's practical.

.

nippononly

I would have bought an Insight if it didn't have the soggiest handling of any production car in the last quarter century.

Supposedly the next-gen Insight, AKA CR-Z, will have a proper handling package to go along with its diminutive size. I am sure it will still be on the small side inside because it's supposed to be a subcompact. And it will probably still be noisy, which is acceptable to me as long as its handling is nothing short of fabulous. Most sporty cars are noisier than average.

60 mpg and SI handling, where do I sign up? :-)
Not at the Ford dealer, that's for sure. ;-)
The Verve may change that a bit though, if it arrives from Europe without huge "Americanization" compromises.

andre1969

Note that Camry and Civic hybrid sales are only a small part of the total sales of those models (12-20K annually), while Prius sold 181K last year. It is also the only one that is easily idenitifiable from any distance as a hybrid. What does this tell you?

I wonder if it's more than just the funky looks of the Prius that lures people in, though? For one thing, the Prius's EPA estimates were much higher than the Civic hybrid or the Camry hybrid. Sure, maybe the real world may not match the estimate, but you're not going to find that out until you sign the dotted line and are stuck with it!

The Prius may also be the most practical of the three. The Camry would be a midsized car normally, but the hybrid conversion knocks its trunk space down to a subcompact 11 cubic feet. In contrast, the Prius is rated at 16 cubic feet. Civic is only 10. Now for passenger volume, the Camry is rated higher than the Prius, 101 cubic feet versus 96 for the Prius. However, I think most of the Camry's extra room comes from shoulder room. It's wider than the Prius, but still not wide enough, IMO, for comfortable 3-across seating. It could seat 5 better than the Prius could, but still wouldn't be more optimal. But for 4 people and a lot of luggage, the Prius would probably make the most sense.

However, there is something to be said about the Prius's offbeat styling. I remember reading some online review of it where this woman smugly said something along the lines of "I want people to know that I care about the environment!". That sort of rubbed me the wrong way, though. IMO, it's one thing to care about the environment, but this woman was wearing it on her sleeve and acting like she wanted a cookie or something as a reward! And believe me, from the picture they showed, the last thing she needed was a cookie. :surprise:

It kinda made me think of the guy standing in the parking lot at work one day, smoking like a chimney. He watched me as I docked my '79 New Yorker in its berth, and had sort of a disgusted look on his face. He actually tried to make conversation..."That thing's a BOAT!!" I was waiting for him to start crying about the environment, so I could tear into him about that cancer stick he was pleasuring himself with, but fortunately the conversation didn't get that deep.

bumpy

I thought about getting a used Insight about 4 years ago, but I couldn't swing the $9,000 at the time. Looks like $9-12,000 will get you a typical '00-02 these days. If you can get by with a small 2-seater, they are a good way to go. Some of them have had problems with the battery pack in recent years, but otherwise they're typical Honda bulletproof. The earlier ones get about 10-15 mpg better than the later ones detuned for PZEV certification.

lemko

...how many of you are "Family Guy" fans, but the character Brian the Dog drives a white Prius.

andre1969

nippononly

"I wonder if it's more than just the funky looks of the Prius that lures people in, though? For one thing, the Prius's EPA estimates were much higher than the Civic hybrid or the Camry hybrid"

Oh absolutely, the Prius is head and shoulders above the other hybrids in EPA rating, and I don't mean to ignore the implications of that fact. But 180K vs 15K? A lot of those buyers are buying the easily idenitifable hybrid so that they can make a statement out on the road. I would suggest that the Explorer makes exactly the opposite statement (as do Tahoe, Sequoia, Suburban, etc).

But full-size BOF SUVs are sold in much smaller numbers and bought mainly by folks who are towing, I think. Explorer's problem is not only its dinosaur image but also that it has been effectively replaced by better-riding, less-gas-guzzling crossovers that also cost less in some cases...

bumpy

I wonder if it's more than just the funky looks of the Prius that lures people in, though?

Let's not forget that it's a midsize hatchback for $25k. Twice the mileage of the equivalent CUV, and about $10k less for similar equipment levels. The "save the earth" stuff is just icing on the cake.

boaz47

""I wonder if it's more than just the funky looks of the Prius that lures people in, though? For one thing, the Prius's EPA estimates were much higher than the Civic hybrid or the Camry hybrid"

It is the revenge of the geek I think. There are other solutions and many of them are more practical. But the Prius has become the pocket protector of the age. A car does not have to be ugly to be green. But a symbol has to stand out or it isn't worth anything. Yes the Explorer is from another age and may be in need of a update or a down size. But the Prius is the poster child against years of the rugged grab all the life you can excesses of the 70s-80s and 90s. Many Hollywood types drive them to photo events but they go out to dinner with friends in their BMWs or MB Limos.

The Escape hybrid may be a better option for people anyway, if they want to be green.

explorerx4

i think the ' perceived gas mileage ' followed by the ' saving the earth ' image are the major factors in most prius purchases.
having grown up in the 70's gas crisis are, my major consideration is "don't live too far from work". it makes the gas mileage factor less of a consideration.
i have an explorer and i think it still works for my situation, although i do my commuting in a pzev focus. pretty much knock 10g's off the prius, to get to a focus.

boaz47

I took the same path as you. I believe the California focus was Pzev before the Prius. But I will admit there are times fuel mileage moves closer to the top of my wish list. Just not the most important factor yet. I just wonder how a Prius will do in the used car market at the ten year mark. After all they were pretty expensive to make in the first place.

nippononly

" I just wonder how a Prius will do in the used car market at the ten year mark"

Not sure exactly where you were going with this, but I don't need to wonder how a 10-year-old Explorer will do, my parents are trying to get rid of theirs. The answer is, about 20% of the original price, at 110K miles.

Most cars will be in this range, I think, with Hondas a bit higher and the major fleet cars (Taurus, Sebring, Malibu) a bit lower. Ten years ago was the height of Explorer sales. The market for them is flooded.

boaz47

I was thinking the cost of repair. A 97 f-150 could still be a bargain. An out of warrentee Prius might not be because of the cost of repair. I still feel hybrids are a stop gap but I don't know where we will be going. But if the Toyota new releases are true it will ot be long before you will not be able to buy a Toyota. If they go 100 percent hybrid there goes your manual. But I like Google's idea of modifying the Prius to a plug in. I would rather see it a car that was good looking but I still believe we need to work on true EVs. I still would like to see more diesels for vehicles that need to tow but a real EV for in town would be great. The day may come when I might be interested in a Hybrid. But it will not be a Prius unless they hire a designer. But why knows, the Yaris sized Prius might be better looking. even with a CVT.

1stpik

" I just wonder how a Prius will do in the used car market at the ten year mark"

The old model Prius (which was crummy compared to the new one) still sells strong. A 2001 with 100,000 miles in "good" condition has a Kelly Blue Book "private party" value of $9,500.

See it here: http://www.kbb.com/KBB/UsedCars/PricingReport.aspx?VehicleClass=UsedCar&Manufact- urerId=49&YearId=2001&WebCategoryId=47&VehicleId=5160&PriceType=Private+Party&Mo- delId=292&Mileage=100000&SelectionHistory=5160%7c22014%7c92040%7c0%7c0%7c&Condit- ion=Good&QuizConditions=

That's 45% of retail after 8 years, which is excellent.

.

gagrice

According to Edmunds the above mentioned 2001 Prius has a trade in value of $6500. If you had bought a 2001 Jetta diesel you would have gotten the same mileage and it has a trade in value of $8200. It was selling for about $2000 less than the Prius in 2001. I know for a fact that you can get a much higher than BB price for a used Jetta diesel in CA right now. Not sure about the Prius.

andre1969

I've always been a bit scared of the thought of a used, out-of-warranty Prius or other Hybrid driving around, with all that expensive Buck Rodgers technology just waiting to take one very expensive crap. But haven't older Priuses, at least, proven fairly reliable so far?

1stpik

..... fuel injection, anti-lock brakes, and lots of other "Buck Rogers technology" worried people in the past.

The 2001 Priuses are still running strong all over the country. When the battery packs eventually DO go bad, I think replacements will be available that are much better and much cheaper than the originals.

xhe518

As a person who likes to keep a car until the wheels fall off, (or at least 10 years, 150K), I'd still be a little concerned about the expense of having to replace the battery of a hybrid sometime in it's lifespan.

1stpik

Both the Prius and the Civic Hybrid come standard with 8 year warranties on their batteries. For a few hundred dollars, you can extend the warranties well past 10 years.
.

boaz47

My comments about the Prius is pure opinion. Just mine. The Insight got better fuel mileage period. The Prius was the Tree huggers darling at many events much to the delight of the environmentalists. It is not as much of a pig as it was when it first came out but it still wallows like one on mountain and canyon roads. Yes it may be a fine commuter but no one is going to confuse it for a sporty car or even a good looking one. In my opinion. Nothing you could say could change the impression I have from driving one. Much like the "cleaner" cars that were forced on us after the big powerful cars of the 60s the Prius represents a giant step backwards in performance from what we have been used to even a few years ago let alone in a world with occupied by Honda, Acura, and Mazda. Is the Prius a fuel saver? Sure to a degree and at a price. If the world "has" to move towards hybrids over diesels or any other alternative I may have to fall in line. But my last choice will be a Prius just because it was the vanguard of the non car people. It was even on Arianna Huffington"s web site when she ran for Governor. How much more geek can a car get?

kdhspyder

But the Prius is the darling of the tree hugger. It does tell me who got their lunch money taken from them in Junior High. It is the nerd car and the one they drag out to show their commitment to change. But the Insight got a lot better fuel mileage and it never made it. I still wonder if the Prius makes any money. I have to admit it took a lot of commitment to sell almost all of the first generation at a loss.

Superficial and falacious - at best. A little more investigation into buying patterns might flesh out your viewpoint. I live/work in one of the most heavily militarized places on earth in SE VA. There is a huge demand for the most fuel efficient vehicles from the military families here in order to minimize the amount of money being sent to the Mid East.

I moved from an LHS, Camry ( 4 ), Concorde to a Prius simply because it was going to save me a ton of money. At 35000 miles annually there is no better choice. My friend who's had his 50 months now and is at 185,000 miles can't wait for a newer more efficient version...it's his office.

I know prejudices are hard to break down but having an open mind helps.

kdhspyder

Actually now the Prius real world numbers generally exceed the new revised EPA numbers by 5-10%. See the EPA database, the GreenHybrid database and the testing being done by Argonne National Labs on its fleet of hybrids. For mine at 67000 miles in 27 months I'm averaging 48 mpg. The EPA whould have me at 46 mpg combined.

46 mpg is realistic. 48 mpg is easily achievable. 55 mpg is as well with the right conditions and driving pattern. 60-85 mpg is doable with a lot of effort.

The Prius may also be the most practical of the three. The Camry would be a midsized car normally, but the hybrid conversion knocks its trunk space down to a subcompact 11 cubic feet. In contrast, the Prius is rated at 16 cubic feet. Civic is only 10. Now for passenger volume, the Camry is rated higher than the Prius, 101 cubic feet versus 96 for the Prius. However, I think most of the Camry's extra room comes from shoulder room. It's wider than the Prius, but still not wide enough, IMO, for comfortable 3-across seating. It could seat 5 better than the Prius could, but still wouldn't be more optimal. But for 4 people and a lot of luggage, the Prius would probably make the most sense.

This is one of the hidden benefits of the Prius over just about any other fuel efficient vehicle anywhere. As a 5 Door hatch it can carry things that no Avalon, no Town Car, no Civic, no Camry can ever imagine carrying. I've had a 43" flat screen TV, golf clubs, briefcase, two pizzas and two occupants in mine. The friend mentioned above who's at 185,000 miles had a surprise party for his wife and loaded 12 6' tables and 40 chairs in his Prius. Another friend who's a surfer here uses his to carry himself and two friends and 6 surfboards ( 3 long boards and 3 short boards ) all inside the his Prius.

nippononly

"the Prius represents a giant step backwards in performance from what we have been used to even a few years ago"

Now boaz, I think you are being a bit extreme here. Consider that the Prius is basically a $22K 4-adult wagon/hatch.

Say a few years ago is the year 2000. Is that what you meant?

In 2000, what 4-adult wagon/hatch could I buy for, say, $18K taking inflation into account? Well, I could buy the new Focus wagon for that price, and let me tell you, it was never any sort of performer. I could buy a Mazda Pro5 and my 4 adults would be a lot more cramped, so I don't know if that is apples to apples. I could buy a PT Cruiser - no performer either, but at least those 4 adults would all be comfortable and I would have a bit more cargo space than the Prius.

There are all kinds of cars, boaz, and not everyone wants a sporty one. The Camry has been a best seller for 11 years now, and there isn't an ounce of sport anywhere in it. What a surprise that Prius is made by the same company, and sells at the same price in fact. Indeed, it is significant that the model that Prius is now outselling, the Explorer, was also a 4-adult wagon/hatch with no sporty characteristics...it just happened to be on a truck platform.

If you are worried about the future, then consider that they did build and can build again for mass production a sport Prius that opened a can of whoop-[non-permissible content removed] on pretty much everything else at the track the day they took it out there. Prius is just one set of variables that automakers can apply to the hybrid equation...there are many other variables they can substitute into the equation in the future.

kdhspyder

It appears that your dislike for a certain group of people ( several groups it seems ) may have blinded you to the fact that it's just a car. Nothing more. Grouping the entire population of buyers into one of the groups that you dislike is narrow-minded and is in fact the basis of prejudice ( pre-judging ).

Why not leave it that it appeals to a wide variety of buyers - obviously by the sales numbers - for a wide variety of reasons. Some of these buyers may actually be people that you dislike, some may not.

BTW performance is something that has never appealed to me at anytime in my 40 yrs of driving. To me a vehicle is a tool like a hammer. It gets bruised and damaged and is used to do a job. That's all there is to say about it. A vehicle signifies nothing. I recognize that this is not true universally, my wife for example.

boaz47

Like you I watched the car shows and looked at what they hinted they could do with Hybrids. Oh the Duel Note showed promise. You were defending the Prius even back then and yet it never crossed your radar when the time to plunk down and get one came by. A Matrix, a RSX and and Echo and still no Prius. Yes, it does ok for fuel but nothing we haven't seen before in fuel mileage. Remember the old Rabbit Diesel? The Prius hasn't broken any new fuel mileage ground for us and it doesn't perform for us either.

It falls short for me much like the xB does. I don't apologize for that disdane for lack of style or handling the Prius has and that we already have in other cars. Nope I am not impressed and likely never will be. Do I like the Lexus hybrid? Yes I do. But according to the president of Toyota in ten years or so all Toyotas might be hybrids. And that would be fine with me as long as I never had to sit in the creation they have made called the prius. It isn't the name it is the bogus attempt at design that flashes back to art deco. The Prius simply leaves me cold.

andre1969

Yes, it does ok for fuel but nothing we haven't seen before in fuel mileage. Remember the old Rabbit Diesel? The Prius hasn't broken any new fuel mileage ground for us and it doesn't perform for us either.

I found some old stats for the VW Rabbit. With the Diesel, 0-60 came up in 21.3 seconds. Quarter mile in 22.2. Now the turbo Diesel would cut that down to 0-60 in 17.9 seconds, and quarter mile in 21.0.

The Prius may not get better economy, but other things have improved considerably. For one, it's a midsized car that does 0-60 in about 10.2 seconds with an automatic, and runs on regular gasoline. The Rabbit was a subcompact. Plus, those acceleration times were most likely with stick shifts, because practically nobody bought small cars with automatics back then. Then, factor in the higher cost of Diesel fuel, plus the pollution factor involved, especially back in the late 70's! Once all that is taken into consideration, the Prius seems to be a giant leap forward.

lemko

Well, I heard the story second-hand from my then-girlfriend, so I guess I just took her word for it. Maybe little sis actually still managed to fill the car with gas regardless of the nozzle size?

andre1969

Hmmm, I didn't realize that. I just figured the shape of both was different enough so that you couldn't put the wrong fuel in either type of vehicle. I remember a few years ago, putting a Diesel fuel pump nozzle to the filler of my '79 New Yorker, just to see if it would fit, and IIRC, the Diesel nozzle was sort of oval shaped, whereas the NYer's was more circular.

I do remember though, when my uncle briefly had a Diesel pickup, he'd always warn me that if I ever drove it and had to refuel, to pay attention to what I put in it. And once, when I was riding with him, and I said something about it being low on gas, he got a bit anal about how it doesn't take GAS, it takes DIESEL!! He works in construction though, so maybe out on the job site, they drill the difference into the workers' heads?

bumpy

I think it depends on whether or not the gas station felt like buying different nozzles for the diesel pump. Some do, but most don't bother.

lemko

...also had a nasty tendency to "gel-up" in the cold weather.

Funny story about a Diesel Rabbit: I had an ex-girlfriend who had a then-new Jetta. She passed down her old yellow Diesel Rabbit to her younger sister who then drove it to the local filling station and filled it up with gasoline!

nippononly

I thought the size of the nozzle would prevent that, or something?

bumpy

Other way around. Diesel nozzles wouldn't fit in (unleaded) gas fillers, but gas nozzles would fit in diesel fillers. Although, the gas and diesel nozzles I've seen lately have been the same size and the green rubber coating is used to distinguish diesel from gas.

xhe518

This is why diesels are a hard sell in America. Most people (myself included) tend to associate diesels with the "bad" diesels of the 1970's (hard starting, clattering, noisy) and with the black smoke belching out of big rig 18 wheelers.

There will need to be a lot of the new "clean" diesels on the road to change that impression

larsb

Diesel nozzles are larger, so will not go into gasoline car tanks.

HOWEVER:

Unleaded nozzles are smaller and WILL go into diesel car tanks.

That's where lies the problem...................

nippononly

that if Ford offered a diesel Explorer, making perhaps high 20s instead of high teens for gas mileage, that its decline would have been less precipitous?

I think Explorer is just hurting because it is BOF at a time when much-better-driving crossovers offer as much interior space and a better ride for less money, and all you have to give up is towing, which less than 5% of all owners ever do, and hardcore offroading, which less than 1% do (and how good is Explorer for this purpose anyway? Answer: not very good).

gagrice

I think Explorer is just hurting because it is BOF

I don't think so. I have rented several Explorers in Hawaii. They all drove better than the Escape. I think the Trailblazer is slightly better than the Explorer. The Sequoia drives and handles better than the Trailblazer, Tahoe and Escalade.

Speaking of Prius. I saw one today with the HOV stickers and a big NHRA bumper sticker. So I guess they have infiltrated the racing world. He was parked so I don't know if he blocks traffic like the rest of them. :shades:

nippononly

"I have rented several Explorers in Hawaii. They all drove better than the Escape"

Yes perhaps, but the Escape is not a crossover in the normal sense of the word, it is on a unique platform. And it is a smaller vehicle, which would run counter to your normal preferences, I would suspect.

Go out and drive the new Highlander, then go drive the Edge, then stop by the Saturn dealer and drive the (Outlook, is it? their version of the Lambda), then go back and drive that Explorer again. You may find the Explorer to be inferior in that context. Certainly the market is speaking, and that is what lots of other folks are concluding.

ggurr54

Had Prius for about two years. The perfect in city car. great economy. Easy to park and lots of room inside. Traded for a Camry Hybrid because if was just too small to enjoy on the highway. Yes, going up any hill or mountain is an exercise in patience both you and those following. But times are changing. Inexpensive energy is a thing of the past. I am not a tree hugger. Love BMW and own more guns than I can count. The world we live in now and our kids will inherit is not the world we grew up in. We are going to have to change.

larsb

Well said all around, Amigo. Bravo.

andre1969

Yes perhaps, but the Escape is not a crossover in the normal sense of the word, it is on a unique platform. And it is a smaller vehicle, which would run counter to your normal preferences, I would suspect.

Plus, the Escape is what? 8 years old now? Didn't it first come out as a 2000 model? I've never ridden in one or driven one, only sat in them at auto shows. I'm impressed at how roomy they are for such a small vehicle. But there's probably just better, more up-to-date stuff on the market these days.

I like the new Edge. I imagine it might suffer a bit for not having a third row seat, but I thought its second row was really comfortable. Probably moreso than many 3-seat SUVs. It seems like those 3-seat models often compromise the middle row somehow, making the seats too low, too flat, and too small. It's sort of like sitting on cheap lawn furniture, whereas the Edge seemed to have a "real" back seat.

nippononly

"Plus, the Escape is what? 8 years old now? Didn't it first come out as a 2000 model?"

It was first available in 2000 as a 2001 model. And yes, it is essentially unchanged except for facelifts since that time. Meanwhile, the Explorer has had not one, but TWO full model updates in that time. Ford was SO desperately hoping its cash cow would continue to produce milk. But alas, the times had changed and Ford had bet wrong.

gagrice

I tried to rent an Acadia for my trip last summer. They tried to pull a fast one and put me into a different vehicle. Then I read the consumer reviews and most people were getting lousy mileage, around 15-16 MPG. So I drove my GMC PU and got 19-22 MPG when I got rid of the CA gas. Now tell me why I should buy an Acadia, Outlook or Enclave to get the same mileage as my Sequoia. Unless the NAV is a lot better and it has XM radio. The Edge is nice looking and I almost gave one a test drive. Did not like the pushy salesman. They are also too small. Sorry but the Highlander is just butt ugly IMO. I would not bother sitting in one. And it is MUCH smaller than the others. The new Highlander and Sequoia look like a fat chick in spandex. Bulges in the wrong places.

My Sister and brother in law just bought a new Explorer and love it. Traded in a 1996 Explorer that was still running good. They never considered anything else. Got a great deal. Something that is hard to do on a Prius or an econobox.

nippononly

LOL! "fat chick in spandex" That is the PERFECT characterization of the looks of the new Highander and Sequoia! :-P I almost fell out of my chair.

But you pulled a fast one - you switched the "other vehicle" to your Sequoia. I was comparing those crossovers I mentioned to the Explorer, not the larger Sequoia. That's a different comparison. I agree, there is no good crossover alternative to full-size BOF SUVs. It's the midsizers like Trailblazer and Explorer that are yesterday's dinosaurs. GM seems to know this: they have already planned the demise of the 'Blazer.
4Runner is in the same pickle, who knows WHAT they will do with that model the next time around.

As for the comparison I was making, the only comparative aspect of the vehicle you mentioned was the mileage, and you mentioned the porkiest of the new 7-seat crossovers, the Acadia/Lambda. In a Highlander it would be fairly easy to make 20 mpg even in town, same with this new Dodge Journey that's hitting the market this year, even the Edge would get close. And that's better, if not by much, than the 18 or so that the Explorer would get under the same conditions, while also providing the other advantages of a crossover that I mentioned before.

Also, as to this: "Traded in a 1996 Explorer that was still running good. They never considered anything else. Got a great deal. Something that is hard to do on a Prius or an econobox. "

I don't really get what you are saying. If you are saying that my 1996 Prius or "econobox" wouldn;t be running well at this age, I would strenuously disagree. Toyota makes very good small cars that run years longer than the age of 12 without problems. Ditto other manufacturers.

If you are saying you can't get a great deal on a small car or a Prius, well that's subjective. But I will say you can get the base Prius for a hair over $20K nowadays, and there are now plenty on dealer lots to choose from. That's certainly cheaper than an Explorer, and a good deal in my book considering its feature set at that price. As for small cars, $12-14K for a Yaris seems like a good deal, $15K for the top-trim Fit does too, so I dunno if I can agree. At this point, we diverge from the title of this thread. But there are pretty good deals to be had in most segments of the market these days.