Or, for that matter, having us drill in our own large and untapped oil fields. Or utilize our own oil sands/shale. Or convert our coal into oil through coal gasification. Or converting our organic waste products into oil through thermal depolymerization.
it be best to wait on using our own oil for as long as we can . Why use our gas when we can use others and then when there is very little left we can use our own and laugh at them all.
However we still need to conserve as much as possible.
ethanol using switchgrass and other high yield crops is one way , bio diesel is another way . So are other renewable resources like solar and wind .
Oops, my bad. You are correct, the term "occupation of Germany and Japan" means the post-surrender military occupation. I was thinking of the on-going fighting on German and Japanese soil (like Aachen, Konigsberg, and especially Iwo Jima and Okinawa, where the Americans occupied the land surface while the Japanese kept fighting from underground). The war in Iraq is ongoing, against determined foes who simply do not give up, just like the brainwashed Hitler Jugend and bushido soldiers.
The easiest way to get oil companies to build more refineries...
...is to have the government threaten to build the refineries itself and then force the oil companies to buy them.
We all know how inefficient the government is, so the threat of being forced to pay for the government to build a refinery might just light a fire under the behind of the oil companies to do it themselves.
Being that they could build them cheaper than government.
And yes, there is a disparity between crude oil inventories and gasoline inventories.
How much does the refining stage add to the cost of a gallon of gas? Unless everything that I've read is grossly inaccurate its about 10-15 cents? So how could having more refineries reduce the price of gas by more than that?
Oh, no. Heaven forbid! The world has maxed out it's oil production! Peak oil is heeere! We're all gunna die!
Yes I do believe that we are nearing Peak Oil. I could be wrong but I don't care because I am more certain that global warming is a very real problem and burning fossil fuels aggravates the situation. So I could care less whether we have 1 year of oil left or 1 million years. We need to stop burning oil.
All those methods are actually 'proven technology'.
The only roadblock is the lack of will by both the oil companies and our government.
If construction started now, it would take but 2-3 years to build thermal depolymerization and coal gasification facilities.
(Though, I wonder why the coal industry doesn't build coal gasification facilities. Wouldn't they want to expand their market?)
:confuse:
I do agree that drilling in our untapped oil fields would probably take a long time to be brought into production. What with new pipelines, oil rigs, etc, etc. needing to be built.
...is to have the government threaten to build the refineries itself and then force the oil companies to buy them.
Yea sure , that way the government can give the refinerys to them for 1$
That is the way this country works . Why do you think there is a big deal about iminent domain (did i spell that right?) . The goverment took land away from home owners at very low prices and sold it to companys for a very low price.
I rather them put in tougher laws that will require new refinerys built and older ones closed down. I highly doubt those refinerys built in the 60s and 70s would be as efficent and as clean as new ones built in the 2000s
With high gas prices you don't need higher CAFE. CAFE was enacted shortly after the first oil crisis of the 70's. Fleet efficiency standards far exceded what was mandated by CAFE. I'm not sure if we need $10/gallon to accomplish the objective. I'd personally start with $5/gallon and sit back for awhile and see what happens. If it didn't generate the desired results then keep bumping it up until it did.
How much does the refining stage add to the cost of a gallon of gas? Unless everything that I've read is grossly inaccurate its about 10-15 cents? So how could having more refineries reduce the price of gas by more than that?
-------
Don't you realize that the cost to refine the oil is trivial?
It's the amount of gasoline supplied versus the demand for gasoline that causes the price to skyrocket or plummet.
And right now, American refineries produce roughly 400,000 barrels of gasoline less than our demand. So the price skyrockets.
Increase the amount refineries can supply so that it matches demand... and you'll see the price of gas reflect production costs plus a small profit.
That is Hawg Wash brightness, and you know it. It's mutual greed by the company providing the service and the consumers unwillingness to pay a fair wage is what is destroying America. $5.25 will barely buy you a gallon of gas, let alone shelter, and food. A Car, forget it. :sick:
I'm not suprised one bit you feel no urgency to raise the mininum wage, but support the oil cartel in their need to raise the price of a gallon of gas. :mad:
It's the amount of gasoline supplied versus the demand for gasoline that causes the price to skyrocket or plummet.
In 2004 dollars the component of gasolines cost due to distribution, marketing, and refining has remained fairly constant. In 1968 it was 82 cents per gallon. It hit a high of 94 cents per gallon in 1980. For the past 20 years it has fluctuated between 44 and 61 cents a gallon.
Nuclear plants could have been built but back in the 70s a small group of loud people sabatoged many building plans with fearmongering. They got rule changes midcontruction that caused major problems on how the plants could be completed. If only those plants were to have come on line, we'd have less dependence on oil.
The people who paraded outside the gates of construction sites and lobbied for rule changes can only blame themselves now.
I understand that you silly goose. I worked at one. Hydrogen is a by-product of of Nuclear plants. Some are saying basically that I don't know what I'm talking about even though I've given proof to my claim.
Hollyweid gave a list of pollution things each american could do. One of them was hang your clothes on a close line. One conservative talks show host said "when I fly over Beverly Hills, man all you see is clothes lines" in a sarcastic fashion. It was a list of the Top 50 things people could do to save the enviroment. Julia Roberts said buy a Prius. Well the host said Julia, you fly back n' forth on your private jet from NY to LA and discharge more greenhouse gases on one trip than you will do in a lifetime of driving a SUV.
These folks are idiots. "Do as I say, not as I do".
The refining step adds about 10 cents to the cost of a gallon of gas. I don't care how many refineries we have it won't have a big impact on gas prices.
I understand your logic, but you're not looking at supply and demand. More supply - lower prices. Less supply - higher prices. If refining is a capacity limiter then it doesn't matter how much refining costs - it would drive the price way up.
My former job at a Nuke Plant was completed in 1971' and it makes enough electricity for 1,000,000 homes and buisness's. Without a reprocessing plant to take the spent fuel to be recycled/re-enriched I don't want them built. If our government will re-enrich the spent fuel by either (A) building huge multi-reactor nuclear plants with reprocessing plant fenced in with a para-military guard force like I belonged to. (B) Build normal size plants through-out the U.S. and have a means to deliver spent fuel at a few re-processing plants located in the North, South, East, and West part of the U.S. C. don't build em' at all. The greenies are changing there mind on Nuclear Power. I want Nuclear Power, but I agree alternatives should also have R&D monies allocated to fund these projects.
Minimum wage earners usually do not use gas. If anyone should use public transportation and hitching ride from friends or employer-provided shuttles, minimum wage earners should. Like you said, a car, forget it. I did not get my first car until I earned over three times the then minimum wage. When I earned minimum wage when in high school, I walked. . . bike was too expensive because before the cheap Chinese imports came here, bikes cost $200 in late 80's dollars instead of the $20 now.
I'm nore sure where you get the idea that I support the oil cartel in their need to raise the price of a gallon of gas. I was against allowing Exxon-Mobile merger even during Clinton administration.
The funny thing is that all the bodies of recent environmental laws have been achieving the exact opposite: nobody wants to allow a new refinery built in their own back yard. . . therefore more modifications to old existing really really old refineries . . . Pretty sad.
The real issue is that Exxon-Mobil, Chevron-Texaco and BP-Amocco should never have been allowed to merged. More oil companies more competition would have led to more aggressive refinery building as well as more exploration and drilling.
The U.S. economy has weathered numerous oil price shocks and supply scares, yet over the long run, oil has gotten cheaper and more plentiful, largely due to technological advances in locating and extracting new supplies. At the same time, the U.S. economy has grown less dependent upon and more efficient with oi.
In 1914, the Interior Department forecast that there was only a 10 year supply of oil left; in 1939, it forecast that oil would run out by 1952. In 1951, the department warned that the supply would dry up by the mid 1960s. In the 1970s, President Carter warned that the world's proven reserves could be exhausted by 1990. Yet between 1980 and 2002, proven global oil reserves increased by 300 billion barrels.
The amount of oil and gas needed to produce a dollar of economic growth dropped by 55% between 1973 and 2003. The country now spends only about 7% of gross domestic procuct on energy-related expenditures, compared with 14% in 1981. Energy now consumes about 5.4% of disposable income, down from more than 8% in the early 1980s.
In 1860, prior to advances in drilling techniques, oil sold for $4 a barrel --the equivalent of $400 a barrel in today's wage-adjusted prices. If gasoline cost today what it cost a family in 1900 (relative to income), the price would be about $10 per gallon.
Certainly $3 for a gallon of gas will cause some short-term pain, but you may want to view the current situation in light of history.
When gas prices hurt the wallet like a sharp lance piercing the heart, then only salvation will come.
Steve, you see it exactly correct. By the time the our will to really do something about it gets strong, it will be way too late. Before this century is out humanity will have severe crises. Oil will be one big factor. It cracks me up when headlines scream that $3/gal gas is a "crisis"!
It probably won't be too bad for another decade or two. But I do worry for my kids.
sigh. We don't need insane gas prices to change things . We need to have tougher mpg standards for cars and trucks and suvs . Make sure there are no loop holes in the cafe standards .
Get all the car makers that want to sell vehicals in this country to sit down with a round table talk and a small group from the goverment (make it public so we can all hear whats going on) figure out whats reasonable to increase mpg in each segment of vehical and in each time frame . Make short term goals and long term goals .
After that set up a series of time frames for alternative fuel. I believe that ethanol in some quanity would be the easiest way to move foward . Perhaps a ethanol / diesel two prong change would work best . Either build x amount of flex fuel vehicals by y year or x amount of diesels by y year (or a mixture) . From there steadly increase the amounts per year untill a reasonable goal is met (hopefully every car in the fleet)
Continue to work on hybrid tech and produce it (ethanol , gas and diesel hybrids are all possible and efficeny should increase) . ALso work on electric and hydrogen tech and hopefully we can move to that in the future .
Takeit a step further. Cars are not the only way we use oil . For household and busniess power we should increase the alternative power .
A good way to start would be to create tax breaks that would make solar power more attractive to home owners and busnieses (as i've said i doubt its possible for everyone to have wind power generators) make laws that will force power companys to pay the households that give back power through out the day to the grid . That will also help to reduce the overall cost of owning solar panels . Also to continue to fund solar tech .
Once we get the ball rolling on these techs break throughs will come quicker and quicker and so will the cost reductions .
This wont get fixed over night however we can start making strong strides today .
Get all the car makers that want to sell vehicals in this country
Mileage could be raised by 30% with just shifting to diesel vehicles. Then start growing crops for biodiesel. I see flex fuel and ethanol as a big step backward. Not a single FFV sold in this country runs as efficiently on E85 as regular unleaded. Where is the progress there?
I agree that something needs to be done. The one thing that gets overlooked in our anxiety is for every action there is a reaction. We witnessed the MTBE debacle and we are already seeing the after affects of corn ethanol production. If you think that ADM cares about the nitrogen leaching into the rivers and streams you are mistaken. They only see $$$$ signs and a government handout.
I think that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.
I almost expected you to say " Four score and seven years ago.... "
I agree that something needs to be done. The one thing that gets overlooked in our anxiety is for every action there is a reaction. We witnessed the MTBE debacle and
You are nice.....the MTBE produced one of the most expensive ,ill conceived , abortion we all had to pay for.
not to argue with you...but I seem to recall in the last issue of National Geographic...that maybe Nuclear may be coming back...and it stated that America has about 100 nuclear plants....out of 500 or so in the world ?
that is my recall......it may be wrong...but I am talking about number of nuclear plants, not percentage of energy generated.
We are different from the [non-permissible content removed] and japanese military rulers.
Be cynical all you want...but this is a fact that most people , military or civilian, will agree on....unless you are far left of Osama...and the World Trade Center was just a sand castle waiting to be demolished.
excellent post .... we are not doing that bad....but let us start conserving.
exactly what the big picture says....we are not doing that bad....except alot of low wage earners should think twice before buying a car.....and invest in education or oil stock...
Well alot of the world believes we as a nation stick our nose in other peoples buisness, and I got to agree with them. We have enough problems here at home to worry about don't ya think ?
steve...you are focusing only on larger vehicles. Smaller vehicles that are used to cruise around in circles are also wasting gas. It is usage in general that is wasteful....not just the larger vehicles.
By scapegoating, you are diverting attention from the need for all to conserve and decrease gas usage.
Oh well....you did get one part right: saying that Most Americans will continue to waste and pay and complain. And the cure will come maybe a little too late.
If we did not stick our nose into Germany..we would all be sprechen Deutch now....or saying sayonara.
Russia lost...and many countries opted for US help and democracy. You know, most people ( not the vocal minority that gets the media attention) are thankful of the US help. People in China and Taiwan are thankful.
Most Iraqi's are thankful. Many got to avoid getting gassed, being led to rape chambers , beaten up for losing in the Olympics, etc....
but I can see your liberal leanings makes you a cynic, eh ?
But in most of my travels, deep down, people want to emulate US democracy and US way of life.
Well I'm tired of my Tax dollars getting wasted on projects such as lies like the Iraq war. You pseudo-capatalist gripe about getting taxed, then out of the other side of your mouth you want our country to do something about the problems of the world. :confuse: Ya'll are Hypocrites
Solving the worlds problems cost this country and the tax payers money and if you've paid to economics one helluva alot of DEBT. :mad: Instead of solving problems and spending R&D on alternative energys, funding schools, helping the poor in this country, we instead are sending Multi-Billions in aide to the third world country's, some of which ends up in dictators hands, and the drug lord underground. Hey I don't mind lending a hand, but I don't want us to pay for 95% of the bill like we have in Iraq. Isn't that what the U.N. was created for to share responsibility of the worlds problems :confuse:
We also have other major issues like illegal imigration, a mess unfixed and under funded in Lousiana, a rapid loss of good paying jobs, trade issues, prescription drug costs that has no check and balance, health insurance costs, gas prices, oil/gas shortages, lack of funding for alternative energy's, ->Ya know real issues that affect perhaps someone you or I know. The steroids in baseball isn't a important issue like the media protray it. :sick:
If these issues make me a leftist liberal highender, than I'm very proud to be one.
Rocky
P.S. I see you can speak Deutch. I wished I could.
Comments
it be best to wait on using our own oil for as long as we can . Why use our gas when we can use others and then when there is very little left we can use our own and laugh at them all.
However we still need to conserve as much as possible.
ethanol using switchgrass and other high yield crops is one way , bio diesel is another way . So are other renewable resources like solar and wind .
All these can lower the consumption
:confuse:
...is to have the government threaten to build the refineries itself and then force the oil companies to buy them.
We all know how inefficient the government is, so the threat of being forced to pay for the government to build a refinery might just light a fire under the behind of the oil companies to do it themselves.
Being that they could build them cheaper than government.
:P
I like it.
:P
The weapons are 10$/gallon aimed right at your wallet like a cruise missile and raising CAFE standards to 40 mpg as the trench.
:P
What's your point?
How much does the refining stage add to the cost of a gallon of gas? Unless everything that I've read is grossly inaccurate its about 10-15 cents? So how could having more refineries reduce the price of gas by more than that?
Oh, no. Heaven forbid! The world has maxed out it's oil production! Peak oil is heeere! We're all gunna die!
Yes I do believe that we are nearing Peak Oil. I could be wrong but I don't care because I am more certain that global warming is a very real problem and burning fossil fuels aggravates the situation. So I could care less whether we have 1 year of oil left or 1 million years. We need to stop burning oil.
:P
Though I'd like to see new refineries AND increased gas mileage.
Cheap gas and 40 MPG... Paradise!
The only roadblock is the lack of will by both the oil companies and our government.
If construction started now, it would take but 2-3 years to build thermal depolymerization and coal gasification facilities.
(Though, I wonder why the coal industry doesn't build coal gasification facilities. Wouldn't they want to expand their market?)
:confuse:
I do agree that drilling in our untapped oil fields would probably take a long time to be brought into production. What with new pipelines, oil rigs, etc, etc. needing to be built.
Yea sure , that way the government can give the refinerys to them for 1$
That is the way this country works . Why do you think there is a big deal about iminent domain (did i spell that right?) . The goverment took land away from home owners at very low prices and sold it to companys for a very low price.
I rather them put in tougher laws that will require new refinerys built and older ones closed down. I highly doubt those refinerys built in the 60s and 70s would be as efficent and as clean as new ones built in the 2000s
-------
Don't you realize that the cost to refine the oil is trivial?
It's the amount of gasoline supplied versus the demand for gasoline that causes the price to skyrocket or plummet.
And right now, American refineries produce roughly 400,000 barrels of gasoline less than our demand. So the price skyrockets.
Increase the amount refineries can supply so that it matches demand... and you'll see the price of gas reflect production costs plus a small profit.
Rocky
I'm not suprised one bit you feel no urgency to raise the mininum wage, but support the oil cartel in their need to raise the price of a gallon of gas. :mad:
Rocky
In 2004 dollars the component of gasolines cost due to distribution, marketing, and refining has remained fairly constant. In 1968 it was 82 cents per gallon. It hit a high of 94 cents per gallon in 1980. For the past 20 years it has fluctuated between 44 and 61 cents a gallon.
http://www.urban.org/uploadedPDF/900836_gasoline_prices.pdf
The people who paraded outside the gates of construction sites and lobbied for rule changes can only blame themselves now.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Yet it seems like we're listening to them again.
Rocky
It's a sad day when some cheese-eating surrender monkeys actually beat us in something.
They also reprocess there spent fuel, thus no need for a Yuca Mountain.
Rocky
These folks are idiots.
Rocky
Rocky
And we are different, how ?
Rocky
I understand your logic, but you're not looking at supply and demand. More supply - lower prices. Less supply - higher prices. If refining is a capacity limiter then it doesn't matter how much refining costs - it would drive the price way up.
I seriously doubt that.
Rocky
Rocky
Rocky
Rocky
C. don't build em' at all. The greenies are changing there mind on Nuclear Power. I want Nuclear Power, but I agree alternatives should also have R&D monies allocated to fund these projects.
Rocky
I'm nore sure where you get the idea that I support the oil cartel in their need to raise the price of a gallon of gas. I was against allowing Exxon-Mobile merger even during Clinton administration.
The real issue is that Exxon-Mobil, Chevron-Texaco and BP-Amocco should never have been allowed to merged. More oil companies more competition would have led to more aggressive refinery building as well as more exploration and drilling.
In 1914, the Interior Department forecast that there was only a 10 year supply of oil left; in 1939, it forecast that oil would run out by 1952. In 1951, the department warned that the supply would dry up by the mid 1960s. In the 1970s, President Carter warned that the world's proven reserves could be exhausted by 1990. Yet between 1980 and 2002, proven global oil reserves increased by 300 billion barrels.
The amount of oil and gas needed to produce a dollar of economic growth dropped by 55% between 1973 and 2003. The country now spends only about 7% of gross domestic procuct on energy-related expenditures, compared with 14% in 1981. Energy now consumes about 5.4% of disposable income, down from more than 8% in the early 1980s.
In 1860, prior to advances in drilling techniques, oil sold for $4 a barrel --the equivalent of $400 a barrel in today's wage-adjusted prices. If gasoline cost today what it cost a family in 1900 (relative to income), the price would be about $10 per gallon.
Certainly $3 for a gallon of gas will cause some short-term pain, but you may want to view the current situation in light of history.
Steve, you see it exactly correct. By the time the our will to really do something about it gets strong, it will be way too late. Before this century is out humanity will have severe crises. Oil will be one big factor. It cracks me up when headlines scream that $3/gal gas is a "crisis"!
It probably won't be too bad for another decade or two. But I do worry for my kids.
We give up much more easily, which may or may not be a bad thing.
Get all the car makers that want to sell vehicals in this country to sit down with a round table talk and a small group from the goverment (make it public so we can all hear whats going on) figure out whats reasonable to increase mpg in each segment of vehical and in each time frame . Make short term goals and long term goals .
After that set up a series of time frames for alternative fuel. I believe that ethanol in some quanity would be the easiest way to move foward . Perhaps a ethanol / diesel two prong change would work best . Either build x amount of flex fuel vehicals by y year or x amount of diesels by y year (or a mixture) . From there steadly increase the amounts per year untill a reasonable goal is met (hopefully every car in the fleet)
Continue to work on hybrid tech and produce it (ethanol , gas and diesel hybrids are all possible and efficeny should increase) . ALso work on electric and hydrogen tech and hopefully we can move to that in the future .
Takeit a step further. Cars are not the only way we use oil . For household and busniess power we should increase the alternative power .
A good way to start would be to create tax breaks that would make solar power more attractive to home owners and busnieses (as i've said i doubt its possible for everyone to have wind power generators) make laws that will force power companys to pay the households that give back power through out the day to the grid . That will also help to reduce the overall cost of owning solar panels . Also to continue to fund solar tech .
Once we get the ball rolling on these techs break throughs will come quicker and quicker and so will the cost reductions .
This wont get fixed over night however we can start making strong strides today .
Mileage could be raised by 30% with just shifting to diesel vehicles. Then start growing crops for biodiesel. I see flex fuel and ethanol as a big step backward. Not a single FFV sold in this country runs as efficiently on E85 as regular unleaded. Where is the progress there?
I agree that something needs to be done. The one thing that gets overlooked in our anxiety is for every action there is a reaction. We witnessed the MTBE debacle and we are already seeing the after affects of corn ethanol production. If you think that ADM cares about the nitrogen leaching into the rivers and streams you are mistaken. They only see $$$$ signs and a government handout.
I think that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.
I almost expected you to say " Four score and seven years ago.... "
I think we are here because we made it so...
it is very elementary...
You are nice.....the MTBE produced one of the most expensive ,ill conceived , abortion we all had to pay for.
that is my recall......it may be wrong...but I am talking about number of nuclear plants, not percentage of energy generated.
Be cynical all you want...but this is a fact that most people , military or civilian, will agree on....unless you are far left of Osama...and the World Trade Center was just a sand castle waiting to be demolished.
With newer designs and tech...I think it may be time to start again....but of course, we must secure the waste materials from terrorists....
exactly what the big picture says....we are not doing that bad....except alot of low wage earners should think twice before buying a car.....and invest in education or oil stock...
Rocky
By scapegoating, you are diverting attention from the need for all to conserve and decrease gas usage.
Oh well....you did get one part right: saying that Most Americans will continue to waste and pay and complain. And the cure will come maybe a little too late.
Russia lost...and many countries opted for US help and democracy. You know, most people ( not the vocal minority that gets the media attention) are thankful of the US help. People in China and Taiwan are thankful.
Most Iraqi's are thankful. Many got to avoid getting gassed, being led to rape chambers , beaten up for losing in the Olympics, etc....
but I can see your liberal leanings makes you a cynic, eh ?
But in most of my travels, deep down, people want to emulate US democracy and US way of life.
Solving the worlds problems cost this country and the tax payers money and if you've paid to economics one helluva alot of DEBT. :mad: Instead of solving problems and spending R&D on alternative energys, funding schools, helping the poor in this country, we instead are sending Multi-Billions in aide to the third world country's, some of which ends up in dictators hands, and the drug lord underground. Hey I don't mind lending a hand, but I don't want us to pay for 95% of the bill like we have in Iraq. Isn't that what the U.N. was created for to share responsibility of the worlds problems :confuse:
We also have other major issues like illegal imigration, a mess unfixed and under funded in Lousiana, a rapid loss of good paying jobs, trade issues, prescription drug costs that has no check and balance, health insurance costs, gas prices, oil/gas shortages, lack of funding for alternative energy's,
If these issues make me a leftist liberal highender, than I'm very proud to be one.
Rocky
P.S. I see you can speak Deutch. I wished I could.