Lemon Law Questions
gfirestone
Member Posts: 4
in Jeep
Hi all,
Just wondering if lemon law rules apply based on the state where the vehicle was purchased or location where vehicle is kept? I live in NJ but purchased my JGC from a dealership in CT.
Thanks,
Greg
Just wondering if lemon law rules apply based on the state where the vehicle was purchased or location where vehicle is kept? I live in NJ but purchased my JGC from a dealership in CT.
Thanks,
Greg
0
Comments
Seems odd, since other states (Iowa for example) don't make that a requirement.
I'd check with the NJ Division of Consumer Affairs to be sure. The Lemon Law may not be your only warranty remedy either.
Steve, Host
What do you gents think about this?
Thanks,
And don't forget the ladies! Many of our most knowledgeable members are women.
You'll need to check the details of Texas Lemon Law. Most states require some number of attempts (3 or so) to fix the problem befofe Lemon Laws can be invoked.
tidester, host
It is unlikely that the 2 fuel pumps would fail in sucession. Did they replace or just repair the fuel pump?
It may be some other aspect of the car, simply associated with the fuel pump.
Most states require that the car be out of service for a specific period before the lemon law is enacted. (usually 30 days)
While you may have been frustrated, I cannot understand why you would "naturally" not want the vehicle anymore.
A component can fail on any device, but that in itself shouldn't call for scrapping the entire vehicle.
What would your wife do? It's a miralce that I didn't get plowed.
It's a beautiful car, I can't however put my wife's life in danger.
It actually wasn't the fuel pump that was bad, the tech realized this after the 2nd incident. Apparently there was a loose wire that tells the ecm that the car has been in an accident and shuts off all components.
In addition, my left side headlight shines brighter than the Batman signal. I've reported it twice and they "adjusted and fixed the problem". Third time around I took video footage with a lead car and boy did it raise some eyebrows. It's sad to say that I have to carry my video camera to document and prove my complaints.
I'm in possession of my mother's '06 Cadillac STS. It's still under warranty. There have been several issues with this car....chief among them, the battery dies if it sits between 48-72 hours without being driven. There are many other issues with the car (bluetooth phone inoperability, voice recognition doesn't work....and many more).
I've had this car to 3 different dealers. All of them replace the battery, but that never cures the issue. They all throw their hands up in the air when it comes to the other issues.
I've filed with the BBB. It's coming up on a month, and I haven't heard any decision from them. I'm anticipating going the lemon law route and hiring a lawyer.
Anyone go up against GM or Cadillac via lemon law? If so, what should I expect?
I'm already expecting a fight since they've been so unresponsive so far.
Likely scenario: File the claim yourself. It'll be set for hearing. Your case is clear-cut and will be settled with a return of the purchase price (and interest on loan, if any) with a deduction for the miles driven. GM sends you a check and you turn the car in.
However, read up on the lemon law in your state so you can trigger it if need be.
But it is so much more dramatic and suspenseful when it's delivered in real time!
tidester, host
Just to give a time line....I've had the car to 3 different Cadillac dealers. None of them have fixed the issue. They just keep looking for things I may be doing wrong. Or, they deny any issues exist.
I've been in contact with Cadillac Customer Care (what an oxymoron). They have done little more than to drag their feet. I've talked to at least 6 people from Cadillac corporate. I keep repeating the same maladies over and over again to each new person at Cadillac I talk to. They then pass the issues on to someone else. No one makes a decision.
I've filed with the BBB (as it states in the owner's manual). I haven't heard diddly from them for over a month (they state it takes up to 40 days for them to render a decision).
I have contacted a Lemon Law legal firm. They accepted the case (I'll assume they don't accept a case unless they have a reasonable belief they can win it). If they don't win the case, I don't pay them. So, that's a relief (but I'm still stuck with the Lemon). IF they do win, they say that they tack on their fees to the judgement, and Cadillac has to pay (hope so).
What a long and arduous process....and one that doesn't endear me to Cadillac, or GM. No wonder they're in such deep trouble.
I've outlined the steps I've taken above. Am I missing anything? More questions.....? Do you know how long GM/Cadillac can stretch this out? Are there any other outcomes I may not be aware of (aside from them giving the money back)? How long does it take to get the money from GM if/when the case is heard and closed? Or, does the check come from the selling dealer?
Cadillac told me several weeks ago they were going to try to do a "trade-assist" (not my first choice for a resolution). But, since then, they've not mentioned anything about such a deal. Don't know if that "deal" is off the table since I filed with the BBB and a lawyer. They may have changed their minds on a trade assist and may have planned to go to battle with me.
One final note....I noticed on "Click and Clack's" WEB site (the guys who do Car Talk on PBS radio) they give the name, address, phone #s of GM honchos and my state's Attorney General's office. They recommend contacting GM's/Cadillac's honchos, as well as the Attorney General's office if a quick resolution doesn't present itself. I'm at that point. Anyone else try this? If so, results?
Suggest you pose your questions to your attorney.
I guess the long fight continues.
While there were issues with the car when my mother was driving it, her selling dealer kept telling her the issues were a result of her not driving the car much, and not understanding how the car operated.
Once the car was gracing my driveway, I found that none of the issues were her fault, in the least. Some of the inoperable features of the car were never used, so no one knew the issues existed. One particular issue, battery dies if the car isn't driven for 36-48 hours. In addition, I came to find out other things did not work because I tried to use them. Among them was...
--passenger airbag would not initiate as functioning when a someone occupied the passenger seat (safety issue).
--Voice recognition of the radio/stereo/HVAC/Nav just did not work. It recognized NONE of the commands listed in the manual.......ever.
--Bluetooth phone capability was inoperable. There were exactly 4 different phones that Cadillac said would work with their bluetooth system. None of them were current models...most of the models are no longer even made
--the Bose surround sound system never could play surround sound disks in 5.1 mode...no matter how and what I did (all according to the owner's manual's description of how it was supposed to work).
In the 4-5 months the car has been in my possession, the battery has been replaced 4 times...but no permanent fix was implemented. The dealers just keep putting new batteries as a fix.
I had the car serviced by 3 different local Cadillac dealers to get the issues resolved. NONE of them could resolve ANY of the issues.
That brought me to file with the BBB (as is stipulated in the owner's manual). That got Cadillac's Customer Service attention. But, while all the same servicing dealers called to "explain" their inability to rectify the issues, they all either said the issues were "customer misunderstandings" of the features (although none of them could fix, or get the features to work). One denied that there were any issues at all (I suppose 4 new batteries and an airbag malfunction aren't issues to them). One had no clue as to how to fix the issues (other than wanting to rip out the entire interior and rebuild it). Another flatly said I didn't have any "beef" with Cadillac, or their dealership's handling of the service issues.
This prompted me to "go the next step" in contacting a lemon law firm.
Once the lawyer accepted the case, and sent a letter to Cadillac, things ratcheted up even more. My filing with the BBB (maybe coincidentally) seemed to be getting more attention. And, now Cadillac's zone office got involved.
An appointment was set up with the Zone Manager. I went over all of the service receipts and the (non) work done on the car. While the zone manager was a cordial person, he said the issues were "fixable". He asked me to leave the car with the Cadillac dealer closest to my home (not the selling dealer) and gave me a Caddy loaner (DTS...blech!). A week passed. They said the car was fixed and to come pick it up. Did so. Purposely left the car in my driveway, undriven for 3 days. Dead battery was the result. Plus, the inoperable features and airbag sensors they claimed were fixed.....weren't fixed. Same issues existed. Called zone manager. Told him of the results. He asked for me to send it to yet another Caddilac dealership. I refused. He said I was being unreasonable. I said he was stalling and becoming arrogant. Another call to my lawyer, and yet another letter was faxed to Cadillac with this new turn of events.
That was earlier this week. Yesterday, the zone manager calls me and asks me what would make me happy. All I want is my Mother's money returned to her for what she paid for the car. Zone manager said that wouldn't happen. He did offer to take the car back, refund the purchase price to my Mother predicated on her buying another Cadillac with the refund. I'm not interested. Neither is my Mother (in fairness, she no longer cares about how the situation turns out and has turned the whole debacle over to me). My MOther says she can't drive any more. She has no need for a car, but if I want another Cadillac, go ahead and get the one they offer for me to use. Problem is, I will never buy a Cadillac, based on this experience, alone. Another call from the Cadillac Zone Mgr, stating he would expand his offer of a new (similarly priced vehcile) from GM's entire lineup (excluding Corvettes....which was probably the only thing I'd be interested in).
continued......
After speaking to my lawyer, while he thinks the case is strong, he does admit that it will probably take another 45-60 days to come to a resolution. He also states that the hearings are 50-50 as to a positive (in our favor) resolution. Plus, he suspects that there will be deductions for mileage on the car, if the resolution is in our favor.
I confer with my Mother. She says that whatever I decide is fine with her. I get free from whatever I choose (God love my Mother).
Now, I've got a decision to make. Keep up the fight? Or, look at the stable of vehicles GM makes and see if there's something I could use. I've already got my own personal car...don't really need another. What could be similarly priced and is something I can use?
Any Cadillac is out, for obvious reasons as I stated before. 'Vettes are off the table per the Zone Manager. That leaves Pontiac, Buick, Saturn, Saab, GMC and Chevy.
No Buicks...No Saturns....No Pontiacs...No Saabs!!!! None of them sell anything I find interesting. That leaves us with Chevies and GMCs.
I do tow things, but only rarely. I do haul stuff semi-regularly in the summer time, though. Plus, I tailgate quite a bit for sporting events in the fall/winter. We don't get much snow in my 'burg, but when it does snow, it's usually a big one.
OK, that leaves me with a truck choice....Trail Blazer, Tahoe, Avalanche, Silverado, Yukon, Sierra, Envoy. Pickups don't appeal (although the new Avalanche looks like nice iron). Don't remotely like the Trail Blazer, nor the Envoy (can GM put any cheaper interiors in a vehicle?).
It's now down to the Tahoe and Yukon. Drove both. These have as much luxury as anything I've seen from the other brands (surprisingly). No differences between the Yukon and the Tahoe. Liked the style of the Tahoe a little bit better. But, can I find one that will be nearly the cost of a loaded STS (approx $50K). Didn't think so, but indeed you can.
Finally closed a deal on a Tahoe LTZ. Cadillac is throwing the money from the STS towards the Tahoe, including all fees (about even-steven), and paying my lawyer.
While I'm relatively upset at myself for "caving" in. I think, under the circumstances, we made out as best we could while considering the risks of a total refund in front of some sort of mediator.
What I've learned....
--Cadillac (and probably all of GM) is loath to admit their mistakes
--part of Cadillac's MO in dealing with faulty products is to deny, delay, denigrate
--Cadillac likes to wear people down with their complaints
--Cadillac's dealers (at least those around me) are in dire need to train their service staff much better
We'll see how this Tahoe works out. But, from the Cadillac experience, there needs to be more emphasis on the execution of their feature set.....and, their problem resolution.
In fairness (keeping in mind I've only had this Tahoe for a few days), Chevy's implementation of the NAV system and voice recognition features, are worlds better than Cadillac's. Plus, the build quality, material quality, and little things like control feel, seams, execution of the entire vehicles are worlds better in the Tahoe than it is in the Cadillac. While the two vehicles are as different as night and day, the drivetrain is smoother in the Tahoe (and the STS had the heralded Northstar). The Tahoe rides better than the Caddy (who would have thunk that). The Tahoe feels more confident than the Caddy. This is a big truck, but it drives much smaller than it is. Only time will tell how the Chevy goes as far as reliability, but it certainly can't be any worse than the STS (or can it?).
Not the resolution I wanted, but a good resolution......so far. As mentioned, time (and mileage) will tell all.
GM has got problems. The Cadillac epitomizes what's wrong with GM. Hopefully (for GM's sake), their new models rectify the issues. Hopefully, they can rediscover what it is that gets customers to buy their products, again and again (like Honda and Toyota). If not, they're doomed to becoming what everyone predicts.....a dinosaur that can't get out of its own way.
For whatever reason, the bedcovers on these vehicles discolor over time. Most of the other gray or off black (differs by year) body parts do not. I don't know - maybe a different supplier makes the bedcovers. Chevrolet simply would not honor their warranty and replace the defective part.
Hope you have better luck with your Tahoe.
Looking at his truck, he had a point. He was showing the service manager the difference between his and a picture he took of it when new. There was definitely some sort of "fading" or discoloration of the bedcover compared to the pictures he took of his truck when new. It was pretty serious discoloration, too. I heard the service manager tell the guy it was caused by the chemicals in the car washes he used. Gee....does that mean his Avanlanche doesn't stand up well to being washed? Crazy explanation, IMHO.
I drove a new Avalanche. Nice vehicles (just too big for what I'd use it for). Actually, the Tahoe is big, too (just about a foot shorter than than the Avalanche). I'm a little discouraged about the MPG of the Tahoe. I knew it wasn't going to get good MPG. So far, I've only been through two tanks of fuel. One was all in-town (got 15 MPG). The other was all highway (got 20 MPG). That's close enough to the EPA estimates that I've really got no complaint. So much for the V4/V8 "trick" that GM states improves MPG. Hopefully, it will get better MPG as the truck breaks in. I've noticed that most GM vehicles get better MPG as the engines break in.
But, you're right about one thing. GM may very well be building better vehicles. The Tahoe does indeed have some of the tightest tolerances better materials than anything else I've ever driven. Until they get their act together in taking care of their customers, they'll continue to be in a world of trouble.
That’s a real bummer, the only thing GM makes that is worth anything and it’s not in the mix.
Kinda like I tell my wife when she tries to justify things she gets on sale; “you paid the going rate, companies don’t give things away that they can sell at full boat”. I don’t think she gets it but I keep saying it, oh well.
I’m sure it’s for this reason they don’t /won’t, put the Vette’s into the mix regarding any settlement.
I’m sure you did your best at trying to negotiate that they put the Vette on the table. Sometimes you’re just up against guys that hold all the cards. :sick:
In a personal/selfish way I’m sorry you couldn’t pull this one off. I would have driven to Cincy so you could have given me a ride in the Vette down to the dock and then you could have taken me for that long awaited ride in you boat. Like I needed more reasons to dislike GM. :sick: :sick:
Liked the style of the Tahoe a little bit better. But, can I find one that will be nearly the cost of a loaded STS (approx $50K). Didn't think so, but indeed you can.
I knew those Tahoe’s weren’t cheap and like you, I never thought Chevy made something that costs as much as an upscale Caddy, either. :surprise:
You done good, let us know how the Tahoe works for you and if Chevy knows how to fix their products if the need arises.
Here’s hoping you won’t need this service.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
GM has got the procedure down pat, however. They try to make you feel as if their customer is the one that's at fault for their products being faulty.....no matter how overwhelming the evidence is.
Then, they go through a whole deny (they claim not to be culpable) and delay (drag their feet ad infinitum over making a decision) process. After all of that, they then claim they need an inordinate amount of time to get the paper work done.
All-in-all, they hope that their customer gets frustrated enough to just give up.
In reality, the case was pretty "cut and dry". The car has multiple electical issues causing the battery to die. Their dealerships couldn't find the problems. To me, you make your customer happy and either replace the car immediately (after the 3rd attempt to fix it), or you give them their money back, no hesitation.
GM did their best not to have to do anything.
I've only had the Tahoe for several days. While I don't know whether it's a good or bad vehicle, all initial impressions are very good. That said, my overall opinion of GM is still bad. If I hadn't been forced to take another one of their vehicles, I wouldn't have done it. Probably will never look at a GM vehicle ever again, for any reason.
I know, given your mother's circumstances, that you would have preferred to just have the money back... but, from their point of view, that issue really didn't have anything to do with them.. To get the full amount of the purchase price credited to a new vehicle was a very good result. I congratulate you on your victory!!
It is a bummer about the Vette, though..
Edmunds Price Checker
Edmunds Lease Calculator
Did you get a good deal? Be sure to come back and share!
Edmunds Moderator
Of course, the zone manager probably did not want to admit to the discounted Corvette sales....
I don't see any misrepresentation here. The car has an EPA mileage rating of whatever it is. Your mileage may, of course, vary. A "really great safety" rating (by the government) does not have to be utilized by your insurance company. In addition, regardless of how the car is safety rated it is, I believe, a small car that simply isn't likely to fare particularly well if hit hard by, say, a big SUV. Next time, call your agent for a rate quote before you buy.
Lemon Laws vary from state to state. MPG ratings are stated by the U.S. EPA, not by the vehicle manufacturer. I doubt there would be a case for lemon law based on your MPG complaint. As far as insurance rates, again that's as much a function of your insurance company and your driving/credit record, as it is to the safety rating of your car. Matter of fact, safety ratings have little to do with the insurance rate.....the cost if fixing your vehicle, in the event of an accident, your driving record and many times, your credit record have more to do with your rate.
I don't know what other issues you're having with your Hyundai. In general, MPG is a function of EPA tests (which have come under fire by many sources), not manufacturer claims. Insurance rates have little to do with the safety of your car. Car manufacturers have no input as to what your rates will be.
My recommendation is to keep your car. Drive it until it's paid off. Then, buy something you really want.
You won't be able to get an even trade-your Accent for an SUV. If anything, you'd get the depreciated value of your 1 year old car in the form of a buyback. You'll need to keep accurate records of your fuel mileage.
I'm with Ccompson and Graphicguy on this one.
Fuel mileage is a fiddly thing; can be affected by alot of variables.
Why did you call the BBB during your first month of ownership?
Did the shop ever keep your car a couple of days to try to duplicate the 'fuel smell at start up' condition?
tn...lemon laws change from state to state. I'm in OH so I don't know much about TN lemon laws. Stick around....ccc may have an answer for you, however.
I'm convinced that the reason Chevy won't make it right is cost - the last time I checked the bedcovers are about $1300.
BR is right. The Magnum is built off the Chrysler 300 platform, not a truck (although your dealer is wrong on that count, it shouldn't make a difference). Based on the single fact that your service dept doesn't know what platform your car is built on, I'd go to a different dealer.
I don't know about Chrysler, but GM states that any car that's not titled and used for demonstration purposes can have 1,000 miles and still qualify for the full manufacturer's warranty. You weren't specific about how your A/C didn't work or what kind of "stains" it leaves on your driveway. But, it does sound like the dealer's service dept is a bit inept. Again, I'd take it to a different dealership.
As I mentioned before, Cadillac agreed to buy the STS back, as long as I agreed to buy another GM vehicle. Ended up with a Tahoe.
Since that time, I've left it up to Cadillac to tell me when they were going to pick up the STS (as of yet, they hadn't made those arrangements. I didn't care so much as I had already taken it off of my insurancea policy. It wasn't even sitting in my driveway or garage. I had it parked in front of my house.
As part of the agreement, I agreed with Cadillac that there was nothing wrong with the car (no big dings or scratches, no McDonlads stains on the interior, everything is intact). Being the nervous "nelly" that I am, I started thinking about what my liability would be if someone hit the car while parked in front of my home.
I called Cadillac repurchase center and asked them when they were going to pick up the STS. They informed me I had to deliver the car to the selling dealership. That's a hassle since I can only drive one car at a time. The dealership is pretty far away, and I'd have to arrange return transportation to get home. I just want to be done with this, though. So, yesterday I asked my son to follow me to the dealership so I could drop off the car. As expected, the battery was dead (yet again). I jumped the car and cleaned off the snow that we got over the weekend. I let the car run a bit to recharge the battery while I came back inside to get a cup of coffee for the drive....maybe all of 5 minutes. This car has all sorts of "automatic" features on it. So, when I finally got the car started, the car automatically turns on the rear window defroster (which I'll assume is triggered by some sensor that "knows" the outside temp and that there's a little frost or snow on the back window).
I get in to drive it away. I drive about 100 yards and the back window shatters...throwing glass all over me and the interior. Scared the bejeezus out of me.
My son was following me. I pull over with him right behind me. As I brush all the glass off of me, I ask my son what happened. He responds with.."Dad, all I saw was the back glass shatter".
I'm not driving this thing anymore....let alone in the dead of winter, with the back window out and glass spewed all over the interior.
On top of all of that, I get a call from the Chevy dealer stating that Cadillac was about $500 light in their payment to them for the Tahoe. And, I'm responsible for it.
This just keeps getting worse and worse.
And get some sleep.
It just doesnt work. It doesnt blow air, and the fan doesnt seem to work. I have the dual climate control and not one setting works properly. I also have the 5.7L Hemi. Now I do know that when I ordered the car it did not have the factory 6disc CD changer, which the dealership put in for me. I think when they were replacing it they ripped something. And when I ask the service dept. they say they just look under the hood, they never go further, they just replace computre chip after computer chip. And the stain on my driveway is blackish, its not oil, just almost like the driveway is always wet. But it still is that way, and I have parked the car there in over a week, and now the dealers had it for about 48 hours. And the bset part is about a day into keeping my car they said "Well, we've recreated the problem" which just means they finally sat in it and realized the a/c doesnt work.
I'm no longer retaining my lawyer. What can I expect if I go back to the mat with Cadillac? I've got pictures of this whole debacle. Go back to BBB? Cadillac Repurchase Office (who I informed of this latest craziness) has been contacted (with pictures). Who else do I go to?
I'm actually so mad that I'm thinking of taking this to the local media.
Can't blame you that you took the exchange instead of pursuing the issue further - that whole madness must have taken a great toll on you. I'm still amazed that they would even let it to get to that point - from your posts I get the idea that you are a well respected person in your community, people know you and you know people.
I was about to suggest the media yesterday too, but as I mentioned I was quite mad and my post would have contained some forbidden words toward Cadillac.
Be strong!
Chris
This has gone from very irritating to utterly ridiculous.
I've never been treated so poorly by any company, for any reason, as I have by Cadillac. All of their "ballyhoo" about "life, pursuit" etc is garbage. They've strung me along. They've lied to me (from the dealerships all the way to their corporate Cadillac people). They've denigrated me. They are just a poor excuse for any products or services company....let alone one that purports to be "a cut above" all the other manufacturers out there.
I don't know if I'm a respected member of my community or not. I just try to do what's right.
As of right now, I've received no word from the Cadillac dealership, Cadillac corporate, nor the Cadillac Repurchasing Center. I've been in contact with all of them, though.
To say that I'm livid would be an understatement. Cadillac needs to go out of business if this is the kind of product they produce and the way they treat their customers.
For what it's worth, when I went through my own lemon law ordeal in '94, it was somewhat the same way with Ford - I waited and waited for the call from them as to where to drop the vehicle off.
But, I did agree to a "like for like" trade, based on MSRP. Taxes are roughly the same, so is the licensing fees. I'm guessing there's a difference in what the Cadillac dealer charges and the Chevy dealer charges for processing, though.
The extra $500 comes in the way of alleged non-returnable fees (still trying to find out what those fees were) my Mother paid when she bought the STS. I say it was an "even-steven" swap we agreed to.
Now, the back window blows out and it's snowing outside (and inside the car). I don't care at this point, though. Rabbits can nest in the car for all I care.
I'm fighting mad now.
In your case, I sooo hope something eventually blows in their faces.
I have no paperwork stating what's going on. So, I call the nearest Cadillac dealership (not the selling dealership) and ask them what's going on. After a very confusing conversation, they state that they bought the car from the Cadillac Repurchasing Center....and they understand it doesn't have a back window. I confirm that it does not have a back window, that as a result, there's glass and snow all over the inside of the car. And that the vin # they have on the paperwork matches the STS.
Tow driver arrives, hands me an envelope with the repurchasing paperwork. I sign it and they tow the car away. There's no mention of any money changing hands.
We'll see if they ask me to pony up any more money. I'm not paying them if they do.
Could there possibly be an end in sight on this whole fiasco? I sure hope this is the end.
Just to make certain, I drive over to the Caddy dealership. The STS is sitting in front of their service doors, still with no back window.
I don't know if the remainder of the Cadillac warranty will apply. But, I do think they have to disclose that it was a Cadillac "buyback".
One thing I know for certain, the way I was treated by Cadillac corporate, and the selling dealership, I know for a fact I'll never, ever consider a Cadillac as something I'd want to grace my driveway. The dealership is the only single line Cadillac dealership in the city of Cincinnati (the other two are owned by multi-line conglomerates). I'll do everything within my power to steer people away from them, too.
4.5 month later nothing has been fixed. The car was twice in the shop, and the dealer canceled two more appointments. Either parts were hot available, or the rattles could not be found (well, a quick test drive with the service advisor made them re-appear), and the factory rep had either no time or confirmed the problem but did not know what to do.
There's a paper trail which should help. What would you recommend? Contact Volvo NA? I like the car otherwise.
Thanks,
Frank