The Inconvenient Truth About Ethanol

kyfdx

Indy 500.. All those Honda engines run on pure 100% ethanol..

ateixeira

I believe it took Brazil about 20 years to get that point, to answer your question.

The 80s model were terrible. They would not start on a cold, rainy morning. They stumbled badly and hesitated until warm.

Modern fuel injection and engine controls has made them far better now.

gagrice

Was the stuff that they used in dragsters back in the 1960s ethanol or methanol?

kyfdx

methanol

gagrice

Is that what they call wood alcohol? The same stuff my dad said was in torpedoes aboard his submarine?

texases

In the US, we talk about corn, in Brazil, sugar cane. But in Europe, ethanol's coming from wheat, so all our basic staples are under assault. I still remember the 'don't do cocaine' movies in high school, where the rats would feed their addition (with cocaine) instead of eating food. A little too close for comfort...

gagrice

Is that process very expensive? If not why are we messing with corn ethanol? I thought the goal was cellulose waste made into alcohol.

jd10013

the goal is for people in congress representing farmbelt states to bring home money for their constituents. Its really that simple.

texases

Yes, cellulosic sometime in the future, doesn't exist yet. We don't grow much sugar cane, so $$ go to corn.

fezo

Swell. This is the equivalent to the idea of looking for a lost item where the light is better rather than where you dropped it.

We have lots more acreage that could grow sugar beets. Why not that if you must do ethanol?

I agree that it's just a big government boondoggle to move money into farm states at the expense of teh rest of the country.

kyfdx

I don't think it as much about the farm states, as moving money into the pockets of Archer Daniels Midland..

You know, the same money that ADM puts into the politician's pockets?

regards,
kyfdx
visiting host

Disclaimer: The views expressed above do not necessarily reflect the view of Edmunds, it's advertisers, etc, etc, etc.. They are merely the uneducated rantings of one individual.

jkinzel

I don't think it as much about the farm states, as moving money into the pockets of Archer Daniels Midland..

They are merely the uneducated rantings of one individual.

Anyone with a third grade education would come to the same conclusion.

kyfdx

Well... at least I qualify, then..

gagrice

I came to the same conclusion, just using what I learned in 2nd grade :shades:

fezo

You were always at the head of the class....

actualsize

ADM? Maybe. But take this quiz...

Q1: What mid-western state holds the first presidential caucus of the primary season?

Q2: What traditional food crop is widely associated with this state?

Q3: Is it likely that a presidential candidate will make it through the primary season without first doing well in this caucus?

Q4: Am I spelling "caucus" correctly? :shades:

ateixeira

Iowa
Corn
No
Yes

I'm not American so don't blame me if I got #1 wrong.

gagrice

You know US pretty well.

PS
It would be political suicide to go to Iowa and tell the truth about ethanol. McCain did about a year ago and was lambasted.

tpe

McCain has since done a flip-flop on his position. Politically motivated or has he had a real change of heart regarding how important ethanol is for energy independence?

nascar57

Well Guys, This ethanol/biofuels deal is not going away anytime soon. I am at work listening to the daily market report and just had a report saying that crude oil will hit $90-$95 by the end of this year if OPEC keeps production at the current level. This is total BS to be controlled by those Arabs. That level of prices will just add to the demand for renewable energy. The only thing that can kill this is if crude drops below $30, dont see that happening ANYTIME soon. It is NOT going to be fun paying $4 for gas.

gagrice

Not to mention getting gouged by our neighbors Canada & Mexico for oil. The Japanese over charging for fuel efficient cars. Now with the Midwest scalping us on ethanol and food, we are in a real pickle.

nascar57

Haha, Yeah gagrice dont sound like a real rosy picture, but Hey at least with ethanol and food, a little money is at least staying in the country. Just a bad situation all together energy wise.

gagrice

Your probably right unless those ADM guys are stashing it all in the Caymans.

actualsize

There is one crucial aspect of the energy market that consumers can absolutely control. It cuts your fuel bill, reduces upward pressure on oil prices, reduces production of greenhouse gasses, reduces the political power of OPEC and reduces our dependence on foreign oil. What can do all this? Buy a smaller car or truck, drive reasonably, keep your tires aired up.

Its pretty much impossible to control the solutions developed by others - individuals, corporations, governments. But we can all do something. Everyone's griping about the situation we find ourselves in and the direction everything is headed. But let's face it: we as a country have been consuming more oil than we need to for a long time, and its catching up to us. Our vehicle choices have everything to do with it.

kyfdx

Nah.... I was at the Porsche dealer on Saturday, and I didn't see any bags of money in the Caymans..

The guy did say, that if I wanted to take a Cayman home, I'd need to bring a bag of money, though...

gagrice

You're an Edmund's Host you can afford it. I did option one out for you with every possible option and it has a TMV of $238,586. Better ask for a raise. You guys and gals deserve it.

PS
No Flex Fuel Option

tpe

Are Canada and Mexico charging over the market price for oil? Are they charging more than the other countries we import oil from or significantly more than our domestic producers? I doubt it. If you think that an impoverished country like Mexico is going to charge the US below market price because we're all whining about how tough we have it then I've got to disagree. Besides Mexico is rapidly depleting its existing reserves. Another reason they aren't going to discount what they've got.

I'm not sure how the Japanese can over charge us on fuel efficient cars since we have choices. The fact that so many people keep buying Japanese indicates that they feel that represents the better value. Apparently the domestics are the ones over charging.

gagrice

I was making a rebuttal to the post that claimed OPEC was overcharging us for oil. It is market driven. If no one will pay $75 for a barrel of oil you try to sell at $74.

In the case of ethanol, we have folks that feel it is OK to run up the price because the money stays in the USA.

nascar57

OPEC is highly to blame for the high prices of crude that we have currently. They are controlling the supply, which in an open market like we have, directly CONTROLS price. They are not producing like they should currently. There have been calls to increase crude production ahead of winter months to alleviate the chance of crude going to $90, but they have sat back and watched this sucker take off to $74 and even headed higher. Ethanol is also on a futures market, try looking at the Chicago Board of Trade, yesterday it closed at $1.99/gallon. So there isnt a group just setting the price of ethanol. But ethanol producers dont have a group oversea's charging this country an arm and a leg. I dont care what it takes, but I want to be able to tell the Arab's to go take a hike with their oil in 10 years, thats why I fully support all domestic renewable fuels. Like I said before, this is only going to add to the momentum of renewable fuels, we arent going to stand complacent and watch OPEC do this to us!!!!

gagrice

It costs everyone everywhere $74 per barrel. This is not just aimed at the USA. Part of the problem is our dollar is weak. With oil tied to the dollar it will show the weakness in our currency. The EU is only paying 53 Euros for a barrel of oil.

So how much would a gallon of ethanol be without all the subsidies?