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2017 Toyota Sienna Alignment issues: Are aftermarket camber bolts necessary?

JL402Sienna17JL402Sienna17 Los Angeles, CAPosts: 1
edited December 2018 in Toyota
I recently went to a Firestone Tires to get an alignment check. After getting the initial alignment, I noticed that some of the numbers were still not within factory specs (FR camber, RR Toe). When I brought my van back to the shop, the technician mentioned that there was no factory adjustment for the rear. Is this true?

Also, is front camber adjustable OEM? Or do I need to install front camber bolts? Anyone else experience this?

Comments

  • capriracercapriracer Somewhere in the USPosts: 883
    First, there should be no excuse for a vehicle leaving the alignment shop out of spec - or at least, not informing the owner that the vehicle can not be put back into spec and giving them the option of extra cost aftermarket kits to get it back into alignment. Please note: I am of the opinion that EVERY vehicle can be brought back into spec - except for those that have crash damage - and even then …..!

    I suggest you take it somewhere else, one that will state up front that it might be necessary to install a camber kit and how much that would cost.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Posts: 5,114
    edited December 2018
    First is this all wheel drive, or just front wheel drive?

    I recently went to a Firestone Tires to get an alignment check. After getting the initial alignment, I noticed that some of the numbers were still not within factory specs (FR camber, RR Toe).

    Please post the alignment measurements and the specifications in the format below.

    Front ------------ ----- LF________ RF Spec
    Caster _____________|_____________
    Camber ____________|_____________
    Toe _______________|_____________
    SAI_______________|______________
    Included Angle______|_____________
    Other??

    Rear------------------ LR _________ RR
    Camber _______________|___________
    Toe __________________|____________
    Thrust Angle ____________|___________
    Other??


    When I brought my van back to the shop, the technician mentioned that there was no factory adjustment for the rear. Is this true?

    It is true. There is no factory adjustment. Does the rear suspension look like a trailing arm that supports both rear wheels, or is this independent suspension? If it is the full arm, then once aftermarket suppliers design and make them the alignment will be adjusted with shims that go behind the hub bearings. If this is independent, the only thing service information states is that if it's out of specification, inspection to identify a damaged part is required and the tech is just supposed to replace the damaged part(s).


    Also, is front camber adjustable OEM? Or do I need to install front camber bolts? Anyone else experience this?

    You would either need camber bolts, or simply have a tech that knows how to make the adjustment and then elongate one of the strut to knuckle bolt holes to fit. This is a better routine than the camber bolts, but if you want them they would be these.
    https://www.amazon.com/Centric-Parts-699-44004-Camber-Bolt/dp/B07H994XR7/ref=sr_1_1?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1544037228&vehicle=2017-76-1027------------3-0&sr=1-1&ymm=2017:toyota:sienna&keywords=camber+bolts

    BTW the O.E. camber bolts are 90109-A0052, 90109-17013, 90109-17014, and 90109-17015 and are purchased and installed as needed. These have to be clocked via service information as required.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Posts: 5,114
    edited December 2018

    First, there should be no excuse for a vehicle leaving the alignment shop out of spec - or at least, not informing the owner that the vehicle can not be put back into spec and giving them the option of extra cost aftermarket kits to get it back into alignment.

    Right here is where everyone should assume that you are not involved in consumer based servive facility. For the one time in a hundred that a shop encounters someone like the O.P. they will have to deal with fifty that would object to an additional expense and half of them would go so far as to post bad reviews and call them rip-offs, for doing the job correctly.


    Please note: I am of the opinion that EVERY vehicle can be brought back into spec - except for those that have crash damage - and even then …..!

    On this I will agree, it can be done. The question is at what cost and who pays? I know who shouldn't and that is the technician and yet that is exactly what often happens when dealing with a vehicle that requires anything over the basic adjustments. BTDT too many times to count. You'd have to experience this first hand to really know what I am talking about.


    I suggest you take it somewhere else, one that will state up front that it might be necessary to install a camber kit and how much that would cost.

    I would adjust this easily without a camber kit install on the front. I need information about the rear to truly comment on it.

    But there is one more thing that needs to be considered and that is, does this Sienna have an ADAS systems installed such as Radar Cruise? Pre Crash Warning or Assist? Blind Spot Assist? Lane Departure Warning or Assist? If it does this "basic" alignment just got a whole lot more complicated.

  • capriracercapriracer Somewhere in the USPosts: 883
    Cardoc said: " …….. For the one time in a hundred that a shop encounters someone like the O.P. they will have to deal with fifty that would object to an additional expense and half of them would go so far as to post bad reviews and call them rip-offs, for doing the job correctly. …… "

    What I am objecting to is a customer leaving the shop thinking his alignment is in spec and it isn't. This is deceptive and worthy of a bad review. There are ways to inform the consumer that he has a problem and what it will take to make it right. In particular, being upfront that there may be some additional costs is the right way to do business. Having a customer leave the shop with the job not done right is not.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Posts: 5,114
    At this point that is what the OP has stated. I haven't seen the specs and measurements yet.  Did you?
  • kyfdxkyfdx Posts: 130,420

    At this point that is what the OP has stated. I haven't seen the specs and measurements yet.  Did you?

    We shouldn't have to craft every response on the basis of hypotheticals. The OP stated that was the case, and a reply was made, based on that statement.

    Sheeeesh

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  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Posts: 5,114
    kyfdx said:

    We shouldn't have to craft every response on the basis of hypotheticals. The OP stated that was the case, and a reply was made, based on that statement.

    Without real oversight you are correct, you wouldn't have to and the responses don't have to be correct. It has always been acceptable, maybe even desirable to throw the shops/techs under the bus. We don't know how far out of spec this vehicle is, that means it isn't known if a correction is really necessary or not. There is plenty of room here for the shop to have done exactly what they should have done on the technical side even if they failed to communicate that fact. Everyone needs to take a step back and work from hard facts especially in the world now where ADAS adaptives might also come into play. If it needs a rear toe correction and has laser cruise this becomes a lot more than "just an alignment". If it isn't perfectly in spec but is within tolerance then it should be left alone.

  • kyfdxkyfdx Posts: 130,420

    kyfdx said:

    We shouldn't have to craft every response on the basis of hypotheticals. The OP stated that was the case, and a reply was made, based on that statement.

    Without real oversight you are correct, you wouldn't have to and the responses don't have to be correct. It has always been acceptable, maybe even desirable to throw the shops/techs under the bus. We don't know how far out of spec this vehicle is, that means it isn't known if a correction is really necessary or not. There is plenty of room here for the shop to have done exactly what they should have done on the technical side even if they failed to communicate that fact. Everyone needs to take a step back and work from hard facts especially in the world now where ADAS adaptives might also come into play. If it needs a rear toe correction and has laser cruise this becomes a lot more than "just an alignment". If it isn't perfectly in spec but is within tolerance then it should be left alone.

    In our (my) world (this forum), we are allowed to relate our experience, without it being assumed that we are lying about it. We can also reply, based on that assumption. We don't need proof.

    Your speculation and expertise about the possible actual problem is appreciated. But, others may provide feedback without the "proof" you seem to require.

    There are plenty of crappy tire and repair shops out there. If your intention is to defend each and every one of them (without proof?), that is going to be exhausting. ;)

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  • rocco244rocco244 Posts: 7
    I am having the same issue with my 2010 Sienna 2 wheels Drive. How did you fix it if you don't mind sharing?
    Front ------- LF____ ____RF Spec
    Caster _(-0.3)__________ |_______ (-0.3)______ -1.0 to 0.5
    Camber _ 2.8___________|_________2.5____ 2.4 to 3.9
    Toe ___0.01____________|______(-0.02)_______-.011 to 0.09
    SAI_____10.3__________|________10.4______ 9.7 to 11.2
    Included Angle__10.0____|________10.1_____8.6 to 11.6
    Other??

    Rear------------------ LR _________ RR
    Camber __________-1.9_____|____-1.6_______-1.9 to -.09
    Toe ______________-0.04___|_____0.08_______-0.14 to 0.41
    Thrust Angle ____-0.06________|___________

    I was given a note that an additional adjustment can be made with a special camber correction bolt available from the vehicle manufacturer. I hope someone can shed some lights here. Thanks
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Posts: 5,114
    I think you have a typo on your front camber and caster, they are switched. Not a big deal but would be misleading for someone that doesn't understand the angles.

    Your left rear camber is right at the maximum negative range according to the readout specs. A lot of cars today do run negative camber because it makes the car more aggressive in turns and less likely to break traction. This increased turning capability does come at a cost of tire edge wear. The rear suspension uses shims behind the hub bearings on the front wheel drive with a beam type rear axle. The factory spec is -1.27 degrees +/- .3 degrees. The 4WD is similar.

    The front Camber is fine and needs no correction. The offset in Caster on the front would tend to produce a slight right hand lead.
  • rocco244rocco244 Posts: 7
    rocco244 said:

    I am having the same issue with my 2010 Sienna 2 wheels Drive. How did you fix it if you don't mind sharing?
    Front ------- LF____ ____RF Spec
    Camber _(-0.3)__________ |_______ (-0.3)______ -1.0 to 0.5
    Caster _ 2.8___________|_________2.5____ 2.4 to 3.9
    Toe ___0.01____________|______(-0.02)_______-.011 to 0.09
    SAI_____10.3__________|________10.4______ 9.7 to 11.2
    Included Angle__10.0____|________10.1_____8.6 to 11.6
    Other??

    Rear------------------ LR _________ RR
    Camber __________-1.9_____|____-1.6_______-1.9 to -.09
    Toe ______________-0.04___|_____0.08_______-0.14 to 0.41
    Thrust Angle ____-0.06________|___________

    I was given a note that an additional adjustment can be made with a special camber correction bolt available from the vehicle manufacturer. I hope someone can shed some lights here. Thanks

  • rocco244rocco244 Posts: 7
    Fixed camber/caster
  • rocco244rocco244 Posts: 7

    I think you have a typo on your front camber and caster, they are switched. Not a big deal but would be misleading for someone that doesn't understand the angles.

    Your left rear camber is right at the maximum negative range according to the readout specs. A lot of cars today do run negative camber because it makes the car more aggressive in turns and less likely to break traction. This increased turning capability does come at a cost of tire edge wear. The rear suspension uses shims behind the hub bearings on the front wheel drive with a beam type rear axle. The factory spec is -1.27 degrees +/- .3 degrees. The 4WD is similar.

    The front Camber is fine and needs no correction. The offset in Caster on the front would tend to produce a slight right hand lead.

    Thanks a lot for your input. You described the car condition like if you are driving it. The offset in Caster on the front would tend to produce a slight right hand lead which annoying. How can I get that fixed? will replacing the camber bolt help?
    Also my main concern is the tires edge wear I just got the tire replaced for that specific reason. If it is due to left rear camber is right at the maximum negative. How can that be fixed? Shims replacement maybe?
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Posts: 5,114
    The rear camber woud produce some edge wear over time, rotating the tires would help some but ultimately produce identical wear on all four tires.

    The rear is adjusted with shims that go behind the rear hub bearings. You should have the left rear camber increased about .7 degrees for the ideal -1.2 and the right rear .4 degrees to get it to the ideal spec. The rear toe is adjusted at the same time. the right rear does not need a correction, the left rearcould be toed in about .1 degrees.

    The front caster is adjusted by moving the cradle. If that offset was the other direction it would help hold against road crown. The right hand side would need to move forward about 1/8" to 3/16" as rotated around the left front cradle to body bolt. What I mean by that is both right hand cradle bolts would be loosened, and just the left rear cradle bolt. Then the right side would be pushed forward slightly and retightened. Doing that would simultaneously increase the right hand caster while the left would decrease slightly.

    The way the car is set right now you not only have a light caster lead on the front, you don't have any offset for road crown and the rear has a dynamic thrust angle also to the right. I'm not at all surprised to hear that this has a right hand lead.
  • rocco244rocco244 Posts: 7

    The rear camber woud produce some edge wear over time, rotating the tires would help some but ultimately produce identical wear on all four tires.

    The rear is adjusted with shims that go behind the rear hub bearings. You should have the left rear camber increased about .7 degrees for the ideal -1.2 and the right rear .4 degrees to get it to the ideal spec. The rear toe is adjusted at the same time. the right rear does not need a correction, the left rearcould be toed in about .1 degrees.

    The front caster is adjusted by moving the cradle. If that offset was the other direction it would help hold against road crown. The right hand side would need to move forward about 1/8" to 3/16" as rotated around the left front cradle to body bolt. What I mean by that is both right hand cradle bolts would be loosened, and just the left rear cradle bolt. Then the right side would be pushed forward slightly and retightened. Doing that would simultaneously increase the right hand caster while the left would decrease slightly.

    The way the car is set right now you not only have a light caster lead on the front, you don't have any offset for road crown and the rear has a dynamic thrust angle also to the right. I'm not at all surprised to hear that this has a right hand lead.

    Thanks again for sharing your knowledge here. So to adjust the front caster I need to get a new set of camber correction bolts to adjust the cradle? Is that something that's done by the alignment shop? As I was told by the tech in FS that he is not able to perform the adjustment fully with the OEM camber bolts. I can get that replaced in addition to the shims and take it back to Firestone for alignment? I have lifetime warranty on the alignment so that's not an issue for me. Let me know if what I understood from your input is right?
    Thanks,
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Posts: 5,114
    No, you do not need camber bolts at all. You need the cradle ( frame under the transmission and engine) to rotate counter clockwise about a half of a degree as viewed from above and behind the car.

    As far the lifetime alignment goes, did you read the fine print on regards to someone else doing repairs that affect the alignment angles?

    That being said the whole idea of underpriced "basic " alignments versus the "lifetime" one is little more than a marketing gimic that actually hurts your chances of having a talented and disciplined technician serving your car. This also crosses into having service writers who may never have been a technician understanding how to actually explain what needs done to a given car.

    The whole idea that a service like this can be competitively priced on some menu board leads to exactly where you are right now. If you took a written estimate of what I showed you and went to any number of "consumer experts" or some online forum, few if any would actually have any experience doing the work and would give you all kinds of advice. That advice would quite often be that the shop was trying to rip you off or you should shop around to find it cheaper etc. What you wouldn't be likely to be told is how you should be rewarding the person who learned how to do this with your business because of what it took to learn how to do it the right way.

    So, you need two properly set up shims in the rear behind the hub bearings and the cradle aligned with the car, and then the total front toe angle reset to the thrust angle. Plus if you have any ADAS ( advanced driver's assistance systems) on the car that need to be retrained because of the thrust angle correction that would also need to be done.
  • rocco244rocco244 Posts: 7

    No, you do not need camber bolts at all. You need the cradle ( frame under the transmission and engine) to rotate counter clockwise about a half of a degree as viewed from above and behind the car.

    As far the lifetime alignment goes, did you read the fine print on regards to someone else doing repairs that affect the alignment angles?

    That being said the whole idea of underpriced "basic " alignments versus the "lifetime" one is little more than a marketing gimic that actually hurts your chances of having a talented and disciplined technician serving your car. This also crosses into having service writers who may never have been a technician understanding how to actually explain what needs done to a given car.

    The whole idea that a service like this can be competitively priced on some menu board leads to exactly where you are right now. If you took a written estimate of what I showed you and went to any number of "consumer experts" or some online forum, few if any would actually have any experience doing the work and would give you all kinds of advice. That advice would quite often be that the shop was trying to rip you off or you should shop around to find it cheaper etc. What you wouldn't be likely to be told is how you should be rewarding the person who learned how to do this with your business because of what it took to learn how to do it the right way.

    So, you need two properly set up shims in the rear behind the hub bearings and the cradle aligned with the car, and then the total front toe angle reset to the thrust angle. Plus if you have any ADAS ( advanced driver's assistance systems) on the car that need to be retrained because of the thrust angle correction that would also need to be done.

    Fair enough thanks for all your help
  • rocco244rocco244 Posts: 7

    No, you do not need camber bolts at all. You need the cradle ( frame under the transmission and engine) to rotate counter clockwise about a half of a degree as viewed from above and behind the car.

    As far the lifetime alignment goes, did you read the fine print on regards to someone else doing repairs that affect the alignment angles?

    That being said the whole idea of underpriced "basic " alignments versus the "lifetime" one is little more than a marketing gimic that actually hurts your chances of having a talented and disciplined technician serving your car. This also crosses into having service writers who may never have been a technician understanding how to actually explain what needs done to a given car.

    The whole idea that a service like this can be competitively priced on some menu board leads to exactly where you are right now. If you took a written estimate of what I showed you and went to any number of "consumer experts" or some online forum, few if any would actually have any experience doing the work and would give you all kinds of advice. That advice would quite often be that the shop was trying to rip you off or you should shop around to find it cheaper etc. What you wouldn't be likely to be told is how you should be rewarding the person who learned how to do this with your business because of what it took to learn how to do it the right way.

    So, you need two properly set up shims in the rear behind the hub bearings and the cradle aligned with the car, and then the total front toe angle reset to the thrust angle. Plus if you have any ADAS ( advanced driver's assistance systems) on the car that need to be retrained because of the thrust angle correction that would also need to be done.

    One last Q. I found two shims and I am not quite sure which one to get?

    Moog-K72641-Camber-Shim
    Moog-K72642-Camber-Alignment-Shim
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Posts: 5,114
    You need one 3/4 degree shim and one 1/4 degree shim. The part numbers through Advance are:

    The 3/4 degree for the left hand side.
    https://shop.advanceautoparts.com/p/moog-alignment-shim-k7264-3/20516974-P#product-applications-d

    When this one is installed the thickest part of the shim will be about 1 o'clock. That will tip the tire outward at the top and slightly inward in the front.

    The 1/4 degree for the right hand side.
    https://shop.advanceautoparts.com/p/moog-alignment-shim-k7264-1/20516976-P

    When this one is installed the thickest part of the shim will be at 12 o'clock. That way you make a camber adjustment tipping the tire outward at the top but no toe adjustment.

    These are not my preferred choice as I like working with EZ SHIM which are a two piece design that allows for more adjustment possibilities but this would be "close enough". I cannot find an EZ SHIM listing for your Sienna. But standing the tires up a little and approaching the ideal toe-in angle would minimize your tire wear. At the same time this change would also reduce the thrust angle which right now moves the rear of the vehicle slightly to the left which makes the car go right. You don't see it but the front toe angles actually steer slightly left while the wheel is level with the dash to correct for that.

    Now the front. There are typically four bolts that hold the cradle to the body. What you will do is loosen, but do not remove the cradle bolts at the drivers rear (right at your feet) and both of the bolts on the passengers side. (About 3 turns is plenty) If you look right now and try to measure between the rear of the front tires and the fender openings, you will see that the right front tire is behind the left front tire as judged by the fenders. It's not much, somewhere between an 1/8" to 3/16". With the cradle bolts loosened find a way to pry the right side of the cradle forward slightly and retighten the bolts. That will rotate the cradle around the left front bolt that you didn't loosen and will cause the right hand caster to increase and the left hand caster to slightly decrease. If the left side caster becomes slightly less than the right side that will help the car track against the road crown. (which in right hand lanes leans to the right so water can run off)

    If you look at exactly at where your steering wheel is right now when going straight down the road, ideally it should be level with the dash. When you get this done it will end up looking like you are making a very slight right hand turn. Getting the alignment reset and any ADAS relearns now should finnish the job. BTW don't be surprised if Firestone cannot do an ADAS reset, especially on a Toyota.

  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Posts: 5,114
    edited July 26
    kyfdx said:

    Your speculation and expertise about the possible actual problem is appreciated. But, others may provide feedback without the "proof" you seem to require.

    There are plenty of crappy tire and repair shops out there. If your intention is to defend each and every one of them (without proof?), that is going to be exhausting. ;)

    The latest exchange in this thread should be revealing some detail that few people other than someone who has really studied suspension geometry would ever know. I have never had any intention to defend questionable practices and the lifetime alignment gimmick is high on my list of things that need to go away if anything is ever going to improve. That also goes for the computer alignment machines that have very lax base tolerance settings where a lot of stuff can show up "in the green" as being acceptable but fall well short of a drivers expectations when it comes to handling and tire wear.

    The worst part about the "lifetime" alignment is that every subsequent visit the vehicle owner makes after making that purchase, the technician assigned to the car isn't producing any profit for the time that gets spent redoing the alignment. Well unless they sell some parts. If they don't do that even though they may be an hourly employee, their hourly wage is usually a modest wage at best and not actually a livable wage. They need to be turning a profit to generate a bonus and since they aren't that means there is no bonus for that time making it a losing effort financially for the technician. It doesn't take much to figure out what happens long term when management does things like that to their employees.

    Probably one of the worst abuses I have ever seen in just this one area of service and repair was when technicians were taught how to do the alignments completely and correctly as I outlined in the last response only to have self claimed experts call it a rip-off. Their "opinion" was that it wasn't necessary and so the vehicle owners started complaining about the additional expenses after the repair was done. To then try and appease the customer the shop turns around and gives it away and then doesn't pay the tech for having done the complete and correct job.
  • capriracercapriracer Somewhere in the USPosts: 883
    There's another issue that hasn't been addressed yet. Excessive camber.

    Many vehicles have camber specs that don't give good tire wear because the alignment specs are geared towards handling. Interestingly, the Toyota Sienna is one of those.

    My experience is that any camber spec greater than 1° tends to develop one sided tire wear - and there are a lot of vehicles that have such a spec. That fact that the Sienna is not a sports car should mean that the alignment shouldn't be so spec'd.

    Having said that, I think my answer to the original question is: Yes! Aftermarket camber bolts are necessary for a 2017 Toyota Sienna.,
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Posts: 5,114

    Having said that, I think my answer to the original question is: Yes! Aftermarket camber bolts are necessary for a 2017 Toyota Sienna.,

    GM brought out the J body for the 1982 model year. That was the first car that we dealt with that wasn't slotted from the factory to allow for camber adjustment. The rotuine was to measure the front end and if the camber needed corrected the techs would have to remove the alignment heads, and the wheels to access the strut to knockle bolts and they would ream the bottom hole to allow the camber to be adjustable. Then they would put it back together compensate the heads and continue on with the alignment. I did one car that way and knew there had to be a better way. In short I found the port-o-power in the body shop and the duck-bill adapter fit inbetween the strut and the inner fender. I would loosen the upper strut to knuckle bolt and remove the lower one with the duck-bill tool holding the assembly. The best part was I could now use the port-o-power to make the camber adjustment and tighten the top bolt. Then I only needed to ream the bottom hole just enough to re-install the lower bolt. No extra parts needed and it took me less than five minutes a side.

    A slight modification of the routine is necessary on some front strut systems and they require the upper bolt hole to be the adjustment point. That is how I would do a Sienna if it needed adjusted.

  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Posts: 5,114

    There's another issue that hasn't been addressed yet. Excessive camber.
    Many vehicles have camber specs that don't give good tire wear because the alignment specs are geared towards handling. Interestingly, the Toyota Sienna is one of those.

    Teaching modern alignment classes can be challenging because there are so many different systems out there and the techs not only have to follow the routines in the machines, they also have to learn the behaviors of each suspension system and then maybe even need to know a given drivers habits. (aka normal useage such as in town versus highway)

    We see negative camber on a lot of vehicles for exactly why you state, improved handing. Camber does load the edge of the tire and can impact tire life. That is something that is even more dramatic because of the wider profile tires. But with those wider tires we also have the influence of scrub radius and with multilink suspensions and aerodynamics, the actual positioning of the tires while driving down the highway is not the same as what we are looking at while the car is sitting on the alignment rack.


    My experience is that any camber spec greater than 1° tends to develop one sided tire wear - and there are a lot of vehicles that have such a spec. That fact that the Sienna is not a sports car should mean that the alignment shouldn't be so spec'd.

    Stand those rear tires up and the Sienna becomes prone to oversteer. The negative camber helps prevent that.



  • kyfdxkyfdx Posts: 130,420
    From my standpoint, just because it is a minivan doesn't preclude the need for good handling. Especially, since most drivers nowadays seem to lack emergency handling capabilities. When a FWD vehicle gets wonky, most drivers have no idea how to recover.

    My car has high negative camber, and it does wear out my tires quickly. But, I'm happy with that trade-off.

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