I know that Vince doesn't allow anything other than rangers and frontiers to be discussed, but excuse it in this post. (there must be some reason why S10's can't briefly enter this discussion)
Lets Compare: Nissan Frontier vs. Ford Ranger Frontier - less power, better overall Reliability Ford Ranger - more mower, less Reliability
Ford Ranger vs. Chevy S10 Ranger - less power, better overall Reliability S10 - more power, less Reliability
The comparison matches except for the names, so lets consolidate.
Comparison S10 - questionable reliability, strongest engine Ranger - moderate reliability, moderate engines Frontier - most reliable, less powerful engines
As soon as I brought this up Vince was prepared to say I had six friends who had to get rid of their S10's. But the Frontier owner(s) who had their ranger bought back by Ford are ignored by Vince.
I mean, vince praises to everyone how his engine power surpasses the frontier, but all the sudden when comparing to a S10, engine power is of no concern. What is it going to be Engine Power or Reliability, basically it looks like Vince settled for the middle of the Road Truck (moderate power, and moderate reliability). Now every truck has their problems and I understand some are worse than others, but Vince just seems to oscillate between Torque and Reliability, which ever is better in that instance. Why can't Vince just say "I got a Ranger because I wanted a pretty strong engine and decent reliability," and if thats not the case it has to because you have always have had Ford and you will never consider anything else.
I've think I've covered Vince's faults. Vince, at least be consistent.
vince,I am going to ask.What is your point?What is your purpose?What do you expect to accomplish with your posts?It sure is not an intelligent discussion.Can you answer that?
wdoyle, Well said, too bad "Vinny the Kitty" will only skim read your post and take out the bad of the Frontier and the S-10. He's proven that he's not objective in any way. I don't mind if we compare the three trucks here at all. I used to own a '94 4.3L 195hp Vortec...loved the power, hated the transmission.
gooba, You know your efforts are fruitless...at least the tree your trying to get fruit from is fruitless.
See this is what I don't get, everyone is talking about the ranger 4.0l, but almost noone buys it! The vast majority of Rangers sold are 4 cylinders, and we already know who wins out in this category, and the vast majority of V6 rangers are 3.0's but some of the ranger guys make it sound like the only engine out there is the 4.0. It was said before that the consumer rules, if that is so, then the consumer has decided that the 4.0 is not the right engine, Nissan's engines have more power than all ranger engines, and more torque than two of them, want to talk about a weak joke of an engine, the 3.0 can barely out perform the frontier 4cylinder! Even when the new engines come out, (the ohc and the SC) The ranger will have no advantages in power or torque! This is kind of like comparing the mustang to another car and saying the mustang is better because you can buy the cobra, even though almost noone will get it. Same goes for 4x4'ing, alot of people talk about it, but what are the percentages of compact truck buyers that do heavy offroading? Very small. But the frontier still outperforms the ranger off road, Vince knows that too, that's why he has been to afraid to read the open road article I offered to fax him several times, he can't face the truth, Also Nissan has won several offroad events, just look up Art Schmitt racing to see this. My point is, we all have seen the arguments for the V6 4x4 trucks, and there is nothing new said, how about some discussion on the most prevelant trucks? Most folks use these trucks as light haulers and daily commuters.
Gooba; what did you need me to look up on the TSB and part#? My service manager should be in today and I will ask him later.
Oh; almost forgot, it's only been about 4 months now Vince, look under your truck yet? LOL!
If you don't want to go there, here's the jist, over the past 6 years, Art has won 23 off road victories including, 2 championship titles and 4 world championship titles, pretty neat truck too, shows the mods they did to it for racing.
cncman, You know Vince hasn't looked under his truck because he's scared of what he might actually see. I've brought up the frame issue on the 'war' topic and he still avoids the issue. Maybe I'll go by the Ford dealership and take a picture post it along with the Frontier picture. This way it will be gospel to Vince because if it's not on the web it doesn't exist. I also agree with you I think the Nissan gives Toyota a run for their money in the offroad dept. Especially if they pump more money into the racing division. Get their brand some recognition on the weekends, like they had in the earlier nineties with Paul Newman and Tom Cruise racing their 300ZX's. They may just need to 'fine' tune the suspension on their retail trucks. Or maybe put a special offroad suspension package together, but as far as designing the 'underneath' of the truck Nissan and Toyota win that category.
gooba, I know you were just trying, it's just that I hate to see someone waste good logic and typing time.
Here's a link for the latest gathering of Xterras, which you know is basically a 4x4 frontier pickup, In Colorado, beautiful pictures, also gives you an idea of what the Nissan 4x4 is capable of. http://www.xterrain.com/
Nobody talks about 4 cylinder trucks because (in most cases) the person driving them doesn't really care. They see it as an appliance.
Of the dozen or so people that I know who own Rangers, not one of them are a four-banger. It's about 50/50 3L/4L. Are you taking fleet sales into account? Where are you getting these sales figures?
As far as off-roading goes, I'd wager my truck that 99% of the people on these boards haven't taken their trucks even remotely close to the limits of the weakest 4x4 out there.
Also, if you really believe that the Nissan 4-cylinder can outrun, outhaul, or just about anything else over the 3L, I've got this really nice bridge that I think you'd like...
Anyways, I still think I'd take the mighty-mite 2.9L V6 over the current 3L or 4L. The pre-'90 Rangers with the 2.9L, a 5-speed, and the 4.10 gears were really, really, really fun truck to drive. Its numbers are nothing special (140hp and 170ft/lbs), but for some reason the engine, tranny, and drivetrain meshed incredibly well. I don't think that Ford has as good of a combo in the Ranger since then.
I think that CT has a point. Funny Ct, the two people I know both have 4 bangers.These two plus my brother(who owns a '94 Isuzu 4 banger)only think of their trucks a transportation between A and B. Most people who buy a compact pick up and upgrade to the V-6 and options that most of us on here have really cared about what they drive and about the choices they made buying what they bought. Those same three people, while very successful in life, have probably washed their trucks a combined 4 times they just don't see it in a truck - the thing that we see in ours. If this is true then that's why we don't see many if any(other than you) that participate in these forums.
CT sure, it will depend on your area as well as your circle of friends, but, I am getting this from automotive news, it is a publication for dealers, it was somewhere around a year ago, plus I have seen it before too in other publications that break down sales, very hard to find something that gives you more than just a total number. And this is for all compact trucks, the vast majority, I think it was in the neighborhood of 60-70% are sold with 4 cylinders. Now if the ranger camp can use fleet sales for their claim to best selling compact, then they have to use that in other sales figures too right?
As to the 2.4l vs 3.0, let's look at the numbers, what is the base towing capacity on both? Frontier is 3500# Ranger is 2720# and gets at the most depending on rear end, transmission and extra cost packages 4,000#. In 98 I had a chance to drive a super cab 3.0l auto right next to a 2.4l king cab auto frontier, we were set up with some kind of clock mechanism outside and inside, the same kind of set up MT and C&D use fro their tests, and the frontier was quicker than the ranger 0-30. The ranger kicked in and had a faster 0-60 by I think around .5-.75 seconds and this was not just one time, this was repeated over and over again by different drivers. Look at the standard payloads, frontier is 1400, ranger 3.0 is I believe 1260. So when you really sit down and look at it, not much difference in the numbers, look at the HP and torque figures, very similar too. I think the only performance advantage the 3.0 would have is in mid range acceleration, 6's will pull better throughout the band better than a four. So I really don't think I am far off base here. Good point from both of you guys about 4cylinder buyers viewing it as an appliance, I guess to a certain degree I am in that camp too. I bought mine because it was the cheapest thing I could buy new, I never bought new before, it is pretty much me driving it back and forth to work, I need something cheap on payments, gas, maintenance and something I could do some work on the weekends in. I don't hardly ever tow or put more than 500# in the bed, I don't even have a bedliner, and only have a couple of scratches in it. but I do keep it clean and looking good, I don't even have a door ding, the inside is just like when I bought it, and I really like the truck, it's fun to drive, it looks good, it has just the right amount of space inside, I haven't had to do anything but routine maintenenace on it, (they did adjust the cold start idle because it was idling low, took about 10 minutes). And I know it will last alot longer than I will probably have it, (if I can ever afford an Xterra that is!) I just had a guy with an 87 Nissan reg cab come in to pick up a new turn signal assembly, it has 361,000 miles on it, beat to hell with dents and scratches, he says it doesn't use any oil, all he has done is replace a water pump and an alternator, never cracked the engine open. And this is such a typical story, I get a guy in with over 200,000 miles on an old Nissan about every 2 weeks. And those cheapskates, still won't trade yet! Well, I need to go hit that white devil of a golf ball this morning, so see you guys soon.
The reason that the 2.4 might beat the 3.0 to 30mph would quite simply be gearing. I believe Nissan puts something like 4.56 gearing in their four cylinder trucks. The base rear end gear in the 3.0 is 3.08 in the 2wd trucks. There are also 3.55, 3.73, and 4.10 rear ends (either open or LSD) available for the 3L.
Remember the old addage that "there's no replacement for displacement"? That's just the case here. It'll just never 'perform' like the 3L. On the plus side, though, it does get better mpg and is a more reliable engine. So, the 2.4L makes an excellent engine for the commuter truck that doesn't do any serious hauling or towing.
As far as ratings, that's just what they are. They're ratings set by the manufacturer. As far as the 3L outperforming the 2.4, it's quite simply no contest.
Payloads have nothing to do with engine size. Keep in mind that a Ranger also has an upgraded payload & towing option.
I've finally figured out why the Ranger has standard towing and maximum towing. Standard towing is attaching a ball to the mounting hole in the rear bumper. So, they rate what you can tow using this setup. Maximum towing is equipping the truck with a trailer hitch and rating the vehicle to tow with the "proper" setup.
I'll lay you odds that Nissan's ratings are when the truck is properly equipped with a hitch.
Have fun on the links. My company's outing is tomorrow. Hope I don't look too terrible!
First off, once again cncman skirts the most important aspect when towing or hauling, something Nissans don't have, TORQUE. The 3.0 will outperform a 2.4 hands down in ANY category. The 3.0 has the superior HP/Torque curve, once again, something NIssan owners hate to bring up. And I notice he doesn't mention the tow option pkg or the payload option pkg that can be put on the Ranger for under $400!! And I notice he doesn't bring up gearing or truck weights. I have already gone through this battle with cncman with the 3.0 vs the 2.4, rember cncman? Most folks don't know they can upgrade from the 2.5 to a 3.0 for about $300 more..
vince,WHO CARES?You have to have a problem reading.The discussion had to do with using the truck as a commuter,not a tow vehicle or big hauler.Why bring up the same old crap?That argument is OVER.MOVE ON.We are tired of this.You still have not answered my questions,nor have you answered anybody else's.The main one is, HAVE YOU LOOKED UNDER YOUR TRUCK? Probably not.You spout all of this knowledge but yet you fail to show any of it.
Listen guys, looks like this is what Vince needs to hear. You are playing right into his hands. He is badgering you!
Lets get to more interesting truck stuff. I am a first time truck buyer. I bought a '00 King Cab, 5 speed, 4 cylinder. I am a homeowner so I have always needed something to haul things in. Sure, if I had the $$ I would have gone all out and bought the v6 CC with all the extras. But for $15,400 out the door, I got a great truck at a great price. Ford builds crap! That is a proven fact anywhere your read long term tests and consumer's reports. Question: How limited am I to going off roading in a 4x2? I am thinking of getting larger tires as an inexpensive way to get a little more ground clearance (and better looks). Ok, so I admit it, I love the looks of my Frontier. Input, please.
The tires are a good beginning.Without knowing the type of terrain you are wanting to go into it is somewhat limiting on the recommendations.The most valuable component in taking your truck off road is you.Probably 90% of it lies with the driver. I would suggest as basic equipment a Hi lift jack,portable air compressor,and if you can afford it a winch.If not,then one that attaches to your rear wheel.And of course a cell phone for those unexpected contigencies.
grubbs, depends on what you mean by offroading, I have taken my 4cylinder 4x2 accross, loose sand on the beach, high water, loose mud, two track roads, alot of back woods stuff, with just the stock tires and have not come close to getting stuck, but I do know how to scoot accross that stuff without burying it. now if you mean mountain climbing, or boulders and things where you need ground clearance and a high AOA/AOD then it is better to go with a 4x4 or soemthing like a 4x4 or desert runner.
Proven by consumer reports who rate the Ranger as a best buy?
Proven by long term tests? Would you really listen to car drivers about the merits of a truck?
Give me a break. Bashing another vehicle is a psychological way of justifying your own purchase. In other words, you feel insecure about your own decision.
That does seem like a pretty good price on your truck if you got popular equipment pkg and the appearance pkg. Enjoy it.
BTW, if you need to ask what a 2wd truck can do off-road, please don't attempt it without the help of someone with experience. Too many people bash up their trucks or get themselves hurt this way.
A 2wd truck without a limited slip differential (which I'm assuming you don't have) is essentially a 1wd truck. For a 2wd truck, I'd at the very least have a LSD and some good 31" all terrain tires (they do look nice too) in addition to some basic safety equipment.
OK, as cncman knows, a guy I work with owns a 1998 Nissan Frontier 4x4 XE. I pulled up next to him at work and examined BOTH of our frames/suspensions at the same time. I didn't see anything the Nissan had over the Ford Ranger? and neither did he!! So your point Gooba? He didn't have a limited slip diff like I have in my Ranger, this was the ONLY real major difference. Along with his bed being larger than mine, but, I have a stepside.... :-)) Why doesn't Nissan make a stepside? These are extremely popular, even Toyota jumped on the banwagon..
I've never understood the utility in having a step side on compact truck simply because you loose bed space. It's just not practical unless you buy it for looks. On the other hand step sides in which the sides are wider than the truck itself are fine (on full size trucks).
Vince: I'd still like a response to my post 469, but I guess I shut you down, otherwise you would have responded.
wdoyle, what is the question? There are plenty of statements in post 469.. I have not always just owned Fords, I have had Dodge, Toyota, and Honda, my wife has owned Nissan, and Subaru, whats your point? There is a room to discuss Chevy S-10 vs Ranger here at Edmunds, why do you bring this into the Fronter vs Ranger room? I have already said, the Chevy V6 is stronger and has about 20 more ft/lbs of torqeu and 30 more HP than the Ranger.. What more do you want?? As far as the Frontier being so much more reliable than a Ranger, Have you checked Edmunds and compared a 1998 4x4 Ranger to a 1998 4x4 Frontier? The Frontier finishes ONE point higher in reliability my friend.. Every time I find a source that rates the Frontier not much better than a Ranger it is immediatly tossed out by the Nissan group... You don't like the truth that the Ranger is the best compact truck on the market today. With the new 2001 just a few months away with its new SOHC 4.0 the Ranger will continue to dominate even the S-10....
When I requested input regarding off-roading capablilities, I guess I was being too general. Gooba and cncman, thanks for your input. Acually, offroading for me is very basic: going off the paved road. I won't be bashing the thing up (it's brand new, man) for now nor climbing any mountains. More like going around dirt trails and roads. Please explain: since I'm guessing I don't have a limited slip differential, how can I get into trouble? Regarding my Ford is crap comment, cthompson21, I am not going to back-up my statment with a bunch of facts, it is not worth my time. IMO, Ford does much better at marketing than building quality products. Much higher depreciation than the Japanese vehicles proves the point to a certain degree. Also, yes, you are correct, I do still have some insecurity regarding my purchase. But as time goes by and I get more familiar with the Frontier and the competition, I feel better about the purchase. Any suggestions regarding an upgrade in tires; preferably some that are not too expensive or too loud on the pavement?
What they were referring to on the limited slip diff,is that both rear wheels will pull if you lose traction.If you get into a situation where the rear tires get into some soft area,as I am sure you have experienced,the tire that has the least resistance will spin,while the other just sits there.All of the power is transferred to the tire that is spinning.On the LSD the other tire would also pull.
The stock General Grabber AWs are junk. General may make a decent tire, but the grabber aw isn't it. I'm waiting for mine to wear out so I can toss some BFG's on there. Basically, the Generals are ok for commuting and trail riding, but for serious mud/rocks/snow they suck.
First off, Rangers have an extremely high resale value when compared to their actual purchase price. For example, I bought my '98 for $18.5K two years ago. It stickered for just under $23K. Today, at 24,000 miles the TRADE-IN value (not retail value, mind you) is $15K.
Second, Ford doesn't advertise for crap. Take a look at a Ford commercial (if you can find one, maybe just local "Come to Fred's Ford" type) versus a Nissan commercial with the cars powersliding on the salt flats to the tunes of Lenny Kravitz. Ford's lack of marketing/advertising brought about the death of the Contour.
Third, aside from the Windstar and maybe a couple misc powertrain combos, Ford doesn't build crap. They're the leader in domestic manufacturers and just a step behind the Japanese. It's been a long time since the 70s and 80s when there was a huge disparity between the domestics and imports.
Go check out www.tirerack.com for some tires. They've got a comprehensive survey and ratings section which should help you pick out the best tire fitting your budget.
PLEASE tell me you are not quoting KBB trade-in values. We all know they are grossly high. If you want a real trade-in value, go to the Real World Trade-In Values topic in the Smart Shopper area of Edmunds. Bill (brentwoodvolvo) will tell you what your exact truck is selling for at auctions in your neck of the woods. Much more accurate than KBB.
Maybe you don't get alot of Ford Advertising up there but we get tons down here more than any other manufacturer but Dodge is a close second. How about the new Ford commercials' themes "No Boundaries" have you seen the new ones with the guys climbing the 'wall' and hoisting a Sport Trac up behind them?
Don't forget he's talking about light duty off roading...I'd rather keep my tires and junk the 'ugliest stock rims' I've ever seen! I hate these wheels...four spokes, what's that all about? Then I would upgrade to better tires.
It is KKB. But, I've actually gotten higher than the KKB trade-in values on my last two purchases (both paying dealer invoice for the new vehicle). On a few other deals I've been involved with, I've found it to be within a coupla hundred bucks. But, keep in mind that these are all trades that are a few years old in excellent condition with all of the popular options and configurations. KKB is grossly exaggerated when evaluating old, high milage, or cars with some other negative trait (manual tranny, no A/C, etc...) that really takes away its marketability.
My truck would be a prize on the used car market. It's a '98 with low miles (24K). It's the first year of a new body style (still current until this fall). It's a Ranger. It's a nice looking color. It's got the 4L, and it's a 4x4. It's the first year with the 5-speed auto tranny. It has every other available option except the ext-cab and LSD. It's still under warranty for another 1yr/12K miles.
Auctions are a whole another arena. They're usually cars that the dealer can't sell themself. They're most likely garbage trades that they just want the hell off their lot because they tarnish their image. Or, they're of a different make, so they won't sell it used. This is typically why a Brand X dealer will give you more for your Brand X vehicle than a Brand Y dealer.
But, I'm sure you know all this already. I apologize if I seemed to insult your intelligence. I guess I just like to type sometimes.
I guess we've just had different experiences with KBB, then. Both times I've sold a car on my own, the best trade-in a dealer has offered me has been about $2-3k less than KBB trade-in value. Both times they were low-mile cars in great shape. The last one was a 1998 Honda Civic EX with 20k miles about 4 months ago.
CT; Actually, dealers look at auction reports primarily to determine trade in, it is not necessarily so that auctions only run garbage, we get plenty of Nissans, fords, chevys etc. only a year or two old, with low miles like new, it is not just dealers that sell there, unless the vehicle is really hot, and there is no doubt he can retail it, the dealer looks at auction reports to determine the value because if it does not sell soon, they have to sell it at auction, auction reports are actually the most realistic prices as to what your trade is really worth in real money on a wholesale level.
Did the cars have any unmarketable traits? Unpopular color, no A/C, no power options, manual tranny, or something else?
What part of the country do you live in? Maybe me being here in the Chicago 'burbs has something to do with it?
I don't think that KKB is too accurate with lower dollar cars (or higher dollar cars either). They seem to do best with run-of-the-mill everyday people haulers (like the Grand Am and Ranger I've traded in the past couple of years).
I guess it all comes down to liquidity. Unlike a dealer, I can afford to take that low dollar trade and put it on the curb myself. For that non-selling car sitting on the lot, it takes up space and costs the dealer money just to sit there. For me, I've already taken the hit with depreciation, and it doesn't cost me much at all (well, maybe that $20 worth of insurance).
I did just that with an '89 Corolla when I bought that aforementioned Grand Am. I asked around at a few places, and $2500 was the highest offer. So, I put a for sale sign on it and sold it a week later for $3500.
I completely understand the dealer's situation. And, I take a realistic view of the trade-in price when I go shopping. I've only had someone try to lowball me once or twice in recent years. The rest have come back with an initial offer not $500 less than my target trade-in allowance (not including the tax savings).
Resale, bull... again huh? Nissans are not known for the high resale either folks.. This belongs to the Toyota/Honda and some Euro's... I see we have thrown out KBB because if you punch number of like Rangers and Frontiers the numbers don't look to good to the Frontier crowd so they of course dismiss it.. OK, try carpoint or even right here at Edmunds... but of course you won't like those numbers either so they too will be dismissed right? Gooba, you just proved to me you don't offroad with your explaination of a limited slip, nor do you know anything about diffs. A limited slip doesn't "transfer" power, its not a channel four wheel drive system, its a clutch system, doof..
Actually "Vinny the Kitty" YOU need to check the numbers here at Edmund's again, YOU'LL see that the Frontier has a higher resale value than a similarly equipped Ranger, a piece of advice....never mind you already know 'cause everbody's told you.
vince,I have to thank you.I could not have said it better myself. You said: Gooba, you just proved to me you don't offroad with your explaination of a limited slip, nor do you know anything about diffs. A limited slip doesn't "transfer" power, its not a channel four wheel drive system, its a clutch system, doof.. By your statement you have proven to me that you have a reading and comprehension handicap,and that you have no idea what you are talking about.
My explanation was correct and rather simplified.I did not feel that to answer the question required alot of technical jargon,and result in more questions. Is the following better?
In a standard differential, if one wheel loses traction, it will get all the power and will spin, while the wheel with traction gets nothing. The idea of a limited-slip differential is to prevent all power from being applied to only one driving wheel when traction is lost. There are numerous types of limited-slip, positraction, locker, etc. units.
My advice to you is to know what you are talking about before you have something to say.You are a piece of work.But,hey,thanks for REALLY showing you ignorance and lack of mechanical knowledge. I read your post about looking under your truck and your friend's truck.You gave the expected answer."DUH they look the same"You bring up the frame construction of your Ranger and you finally look and YOU STILL DO NOT KNOW WHAT YOU ARE LOOKING AT.LOL. LOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOO SER!!!!
Trucks generaly have a stronger resale value than passenger vehicles. However, comparing similar trucks that I bought, the '00 Ranger xl supercab has an invoice of $13,756 but a low (or trade-in) value of only $8745 ('99). The Frontier xe king cab has a $12594 invoice with a low value of $9,615. These values are from Edmunds without adding any options, to keep things simple. Without even doing any percentage calculations, these are noticeable differences. Am I missing something? If it wasn't for the Toyota Tundra, however, my first choice in a full size truck would be the F150 supercab. It is a good looking truck. A co-worker just purchased a '00 Tundra and the build quality is incredible. The few times I've driven in a f150, they seem to definitely be a step behind from the japanese products, IMO. Thanks for the input on the tires. Mahimahi, are the Generals quiet on the pavement? I'll be going into tirerack in just a few. Gooba, your explanation of LSD was simple and easy to understand, thanks. I went without my Frontier today and now I know I'm turning into a truck guy! I didn't like the low ride in my wife's car. Also, the drive seemed boring. I missed my Frontier.
grubbs1, The link I gave you takes you to a review of a particular model, one with a little more aggressive tread than the stock models that I have, so i don't remember what they said about those tires on the road. Mine are very quite but like I said the tread is less aggressive. Glad I could help.
Nope, no bad traits to either. Esp the Honda. It was black, had a spoiler, automatic, low miles, was in great shape, etc (all Civic EX's come std. with power locks, windows, moonroof, keyless entry - the spoiler was a factory spoiler that we paid extra for). KBB was just way high on the trade value, that's all.
Take a look back some of my previous posts. I've said that KKB, Edmunds, NADA, or whatever aren't as accurate with the types of vehicles you quoted. Those would be low dollar vehicles with major negative traits (no A/C, manual trannies, not a single option in the trucks you mentioned).
In addition, I said to compare what you actually purchase the truck for against what the trade-in value is worth.
In addition to the dealer just about paying you to take something like that off his lot (in other words, at or below invoice), you've also got a rebate of at least a 1000 up to 1500 coming as a rebate on that SuperCab XL Ranger. Does Nissan ever offer rebates? (cncman?)
I don't think you'd see much of either of those trucks produced. Try your analysis with a middle of the road truck (about what the average joe would buy) and see what happens. Go with something like a ext-cab, V6, automatic, A/C, cruise, pdl, pw, AM/FM/Cass, & alumiminum wheels.
Did you trade it at another Honda dealer? Do you live in a part of a country that brings out some bad traits in the car? Did you try any other places? What happened on the other end of the deal?
I guess it just seems weird to me that KKB was 3,000 off with such a run of the mill car. You sure you looked at trade-in and not retail values?
I sold it myself for $2,500 more than they offered me to the first person that looked at it. I had it appraised at a Honda dealer, too and they quoted me the same $10,500. I am sure it was the trade-in value (KBB said it was worth more than we paid two years ago for retail - paid $15,500, KBB said it was worth over $16k two years old with 20k miles).
Keep on hitting that crack pipe Vince. I have come to the conclusion that you must smoke a lot of crack to have all the dillusions that you spout. How else could you continue to waste our time posting nonsense and ignoring the facts. Be careful driving that high torque Ranger when your high on crack. Meow.
And here again is croy2 with his only recourse, to name call and whine... Enojoying your no Torque Frontier? or better yet your no room in the supercab Frontier? Your useless jumperseat Frontier? Your homely looking Frontier? Gee, I wonder why Nissan made such a huge change for 2001? Hmm.... Look around the net Nissan lovers, the Frontier doesn't bode well in the looks department... Mixed remarks so far on the 2001... UGLY once again!
Sorry but the Ranger takes the "HOMELY" or "PLAIN JANE" award for every year except the 2001 model but, nobody has seen that one in person yet. I don't like the 2001 Nissan Frontier but, the 2000 model and previous models look good and far better than a Ranger. As I've said before Vince, opinions are like *ssholes everybody got one...especially you, Kitty!
Nice try Vince. My 00 SE Crewcab has plenty of room in the back for my two young kids. As far as looks go, I have received nothing but compliments. I too do not really care for the 2001 CC, but my 2000 looks way better than any cheapo ranger cruising the SoCal highways. You can see the inferior build quality throughout the Ranger. Don't forget Vince, I actually owned a Ranger at one time, so I have some objective experience for comparison. You on the other hand have never owned a frontier and you just keep repeating your torque bable. Hit that crack pipe kitty.
I'm still waiting to see that torque curve, vinny. Put your money where your mouth is. Of course you never produce...so until you do everybody knows the torque curve on the 3.3L has a much better "band" than the weak [non-permissible content removed] 160hp producing 4.0L YOU have, even if you get a whopping 25lbs more. when do you get it? for how long do you get it? These are questions YOU can't answer because you don't know what you're talking about. Maybe you'll be lucky enough to have a fellow Ranger owner bail you out of the work of having to research...kind of like I did when I found the torque curve for the improved 4.0L and the 3.3L and posted it...not much difference there so with a 'weaker' 4.0L I'm sure the 3.3L will dominate, but will see I won't claim victory without proof unlike YOU. Go find some Meow Mix Kitty!
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Lets Compare:
Nissan Frontier vs. Ford Ranger
Frontier - less power, better overall Reliability
Ford Ranger - more mower, less Reliability
Ford Ranger vs. Chevy S10
Ranger - less power, better overall Reliability
S10 - more power, less Reliability
The comparison matches except for the names, so lets consolidate.
Comparison
S10 - questionable reliability, strongest engine
Ranger - moderate reliability, moderate engines
Frontier - most reliable, less powerful engines
As soon as I brought this up Vince was prepared to say I had six friends who had to get rid of their S10's. But the Frontier owner(s) who had their ranger bought back by Ford are ignored by Vince.
I mean, vince praises to everyone how his engine power surpasses the frontier, but all the sudden when comparing to a S10, engine power is of no concern. What is it going to be Engine Power or Reliability, basically it looks like Vince settled for the middle of the Road Truck (moderate power, and moderate reliability). Now every truck has their problems and I understand some are worse than others, but Vince just seems to oscillate between Torque and Reliability, which ever is better in that instance. Why can't Vince just say "I got a Ranger because I wanted a pretty strong engine and decent reliability," and if thats not the case it has to because you have always have had Ford and you will never consider anything else.
I've think I've covered Vince's faults. Vince, at least be consistent.
Well said, too bad "Vinny the Kitty" will only skim read your post and take out the bad of the Frontier and the S-10. He's proven that he's not objective in any way. I don't mind if we compare the three trucks here at all. I used to own a '94 4.3L 195hp Vortec...loved the power, hated the transmission.
gooba,
You know your efforts are fruitless...at least the tree your trying to get fruit from is fruitless.
Same goes for 4x4'ing, alot of people talk about it, but what are the percentages of compact truck buyers that do heavy offroading? Very small. But the frontier still outperforms the ranger off road, Vince knows that too, that's why he has been to afraid to read the open road article I offered to fax him several times, he can't face the truth,
Also Nissan has won several offroad events, just look up Art Schmitt racing to see this. My point is, we all have seen the arguments for the V6 4x4 trucks, and there is nothing new said, how about some discussion on the most prevelant trucks? Most folks use these trucks as light haulers and daily commuters.
Gooba;
what did you need me to look up on the TSB and part#? My service manager should be in today and I will ask him later.
Oh;
almost forgot, it's only been about 4 months now Vince, look under your truck yet? LOL!
http://www.nissan-usa.com/frameset_frontier.html
If you don't want to go there, here's the jist, over the past 6 years, Art has won 23 off road victories including, 2 championship titles and 4 world championship titles, pretty neat truck too, shows the mods they did to it for racing.
You know Vince hasn't looked under his truck because he's scared of what he might actually see. I've brought up the frame issue on the 'war' topic and he still avoids the issue. Maybe I'll go by the Ford dealership and take a picture post it along with the Frontier picture. This way it will be gospel to Vince because if it's not on the web it doesn't exist. I also agree with you I think the Nissan gives Toyota a run for their money in the offroad dept. Especially if they pump more money into the racing division. Get their brand some recognition on the weekends, like they had in the earlier nineties with Paul Newman and Tom Cruise racing their 300ZX's. They may just need to 'fine' tune the suspension on their retail trucks. Or maybe put a special offroad suspension package together, but as far as designing the 'underneath' of the truck Nissan and Toyota win that category.
gooba,
I know you were just trying, it's just that I hate to see someone waste good logic and typing time.
which you know is basically a 4x4 frontier pickup,
In Colorado, beautiful pictures, also gives you an idea of what the Nissan 4x4 is capable of.
http://www.xterrain.com/
Of the dozen or so people that I know who own Rangers, not one of them are a four-banger. It's about 50/50 3L/4L. Are you taking fleet sales into account? Where are you getting these sales figures?
As far as off-roading goes, I'd wager my truck that 99% of the people on these boards haven't taken their trucks even remotely close to the limits of the weakest 4x4 out there.
Also, if you really believe that the Nissan 4-cylinder can outrun, outhaul, or just about anything else over the 3L, I've got this really nice bridge that I think you'd like...
Anyways, I still think I'd take the mighty-mite 2.9L V6 over the current 3L or 4L. The pre-'90 Rangers with the 2.9L, a 5-speed, and the 4.10 gears were really, really, really fun truck to drive. Its numbers are nothing special (140hp and 170ft/lbs), but for some reason the engine, tranny, and drivetrain meshed incredibly well. I don't think that Ford has as good of a combo in the Ranger since then.
As to the 2.4l vs 3.0, let's look at the numbers,
what is the base towing capacity on both? Frontier
is 3500# Ranger is 2720# and gets at the most depending on rear end, transmission and extra cost packages 4,000#. In 98 I had a chance to drive a super cab 3.0l auto right next to a 2.4l king cab auto frontier, we were set up with some kind of clock mechanism outside and inside, the same kind of set up MT and C&D use fro their tests, and the frontier was quicker than the ranger 0-30. The ranger kicked in and had a faster 0-60 by I think around .5-.75 seconds and this was not just one time, this was repeated over and over again by different drivers. Look at the standard payloads, frontier is 1400, ranger 3.0 is I believe 1260. So when you really sit down and look at it, not much difference in the numbers, look at the HP and torque figures, very similar too. I think the only performance advantage the 3.0 would have is in mid range acceleration, 6's will pull better throughout the band better than a four. So I really don't think I am far off base here.
Good point from both of you guys about 4cylinder buyers viewing it as an appliance, I guess to a certain degree I am in that camp too. I bought mine because it was the cheapest thing I could buy new, I never bought new before, it is pretty much me driving it back and forth to work, I need something cheap on payments, gas, maintenance and something I could do some work on the weekends in.
I don't hardly ever tow or put more than 500# in the bed, I don't even have a bedliner, and only have a couple of scratches in it. but I do keep it clean and looking good, I don't even have a door ding, the inside is just like when I bought it, and I really like the truck, it's fun to drive, it looks good, it has just the right amount of space inside, I haven't had to do anything but routine maintenenace on it, (they did adjust the cold start idle because it was idling low, took about 10 minutes). And I know it will last alot longer than I will probably have it, (if I can ever afford an Xterra that is!) I just had a guy with an 87 Nissan reg cab come in to pick up a new turn signal assembly, it has 361,000 miles on it, beat to hell with dents and scratches, he says it doesn't use any oil, all he has done is replace a water pump and an alternator, never cracked the engine open. And this is such a typical story, I get a guy in with over 200,000 miles on an old Nissan about every 2 weeks. And those cheapskates, still won't trade yet! Well, I need to go hit that white devil of a golf ball this morning, so see you guys soon.
Remember the old addage that "there's no replacement for displacement"? That's just the case here. It'll just never 'perform' like the 3L. On the plus side, though, it does get better mpg and is a more reliable engine. So, the 2.4L makes an excellent engine for the commuter truck that doesn't do any serious hauling or towing.
As far as ratings, that's just what they are. They're ratings set by the manufacturer. As far as the 3L outperforming the 2.4, it's quite simply no contest.
Payloads have nothing to do with engine size. Keep in mind that a Ranger also has an upgraded payload & towing option.
I've finally figured out why the Ranger has standard towing and maximum towing. Standard towing is attaching a ball to the mounting hole in the rear bumper. So, they rate what you can tow using this setup. Maximum towing is equipping the truck with a trailer hitch and rating the vehicle to tow with the "proper" setup.
I'll lay you odds that Nissan's ratings are when the truck is properly equipped with a hitch.
Have fun on the links. My company's outing is tomorrow. Hope I don't look too terrible!
Lets get to more interesting truck stuff. I am a first time truck buyer. I bought a '00 King Cab, 5 speed, 4 cylinder. I am a homeowner so I have always needed something to haul things in. Sure, if I had the $$ I would have gone all out and bought the v6 CC with all the extras. But for $15,400 out the door, I got a great truck at a great price. Ford builds crap! That is a proven fact anywhere your read long term tests and consumer's reports. Question: How limited am I to going off roading in a 4x2? I am thinking of getting larger tires as an inexpensive way to get a little more ground clearance (and better looks). Ok, so I admit it, I love the looks of my Frontier. Input, please.
I would suggest as basic equipment a Hi lift jack,portable air compressor,and if you can afford it a winch.If not,then one that attaches to your rear wheel.And of course a cell phone for those unexpected contigencies.
I have taken my 4cylinder 4x2 accross, loose sand on the beach, high water, loose mud, two track roads, alot of back woods stuff, with just the stock tires and have not come close to getting stuck, but I do know how to scoot accross that stuff without burying it. now if you mean mountain climbing, or boulders and things where you need ground clearance and a high AOA/AOD then it is better to go with a 4x4 or soemthing like a 4x4 or desert runner.
Proven by consumer reports who rate the Ranger as a best buy?
Proven by long term tests? Would you really listen to car drivers about the merits of a truck?
Give me a break. Bashing another vehicle is a psychological way of justifying your own purchase. In other words, you feel insecure about your own decision.
That does seem like a pretty good price on your truck if you got popular equipment pkg and the appearance pkg. Enjoy it.
BTW, if you need to ask what a 2wd truck can do off-road, please don't attempt it without the help of someone with experience. Too many people bash up their trucks or get themselves hurt this way.
A 2wd truck without a limited slip differential (which I'm assuming you don't have) is essentially a 1wd truck. For a 2wd truck, I'd at the very least have a LSD and some good 31" all terrain tires (they do look nice too) in addition to some basic safety equipment.
Good luck.
He didn't have a limited slip diff like I have in my Ranger, this was the ONLY real major difference. Along with his bed being larger than mine, but, I have a stepside.... :-))
Why doesn't Nissan make a stepside? These are extremely popular, even Toyota jumped on the banwagon..
Vince:
I'd still like a response to my post 469, but I guess I shut you down, otherwise you would have responded.
I have not always just owned Fords, I have had Dodge, Toyota, and Honda, my wife has owned Nissan, and Subaru, whats your point?
There is a room to discuss Chevy S-10 vs Ranger here at Edmunds, why do you bring this into the Fronter vs Ranger room? I have already said, the Chevy V6 is stronger and has about 20 more ft/lbs of torqeu and 30 more HP than the Ranger.. What more do you want??
As far as the Frontier being so much more reliable than a Ranger, Have you checked Edmunds and compared a 1998 4x4 Ranger to a 1998 4x4 Frontier? The Frontier finishes ONE point higher in reliability my friend.. Every time I find a source that rates the Frontier not much better than a Ranger it is immediatly tossed out by the Nissan group... You don't like the truth that the Ranger is the best compact truck on the market today. With the new 2001 just a few months away with its new SOHC 4.0 the Ranger will continue to dominate even the S-10....
Regarding my Ford is crap comment, cthompson21, I am not going to back-up my statment with a bunch of facts, it is not worth my time. IMO, Ford does much better at marketing than building quality products. Much higher depreciation than the Japanese vehicles proves the point to a certain degree. Also, yes, you are correct, I do still have some insecurity regarding my purchase. But as time goes by and I get more familiar with the Frontier and the competition, I feel better about the purchase.
Any suggestions regarding an upgrade in tires; preferably some that are not too expensive or too loud on the pavement?
Second, Ford doesn't advertise for crap. Take a look at a Ford commercial (if you can find one, maybe just local "Come to Fred's Ford" type) versus a Nissan commercial with the cars powersliding on the salt flats to the tunes of Lenny Kravitz. Ford's lack of marketing/advertising brought about the death of the Contour.
Third, aside from the Windstar and maybe a couple misc powertrain combos, Ford doesn't build crap. They're the leader in domestic manufacturers and just a step behind the Japanese. It's been a long time since the 70s and 80s when there was a huge disparity between the domestics and imports.
Go check out www.tirerack.com for some tires. They've got a comprehensive survey and ratings section which should help you pick out the best tire fitting your budget.
If you are not quoting KBB, I apologize.
My truck would be a prize on the used car market. It's a '98 with low miles (24K). It's the first year of a new body style (still current until this fall). It's a Ranger. It's a nice looking color. It's got the 4L, and it's a 4x4. It's the first year with the 5-speed auto tranny. It has every other available option except the ext-cab and LSD. It's still under warranty for another 1yr/12K miles.
Auctions are a whole another arena. They're usually cars that the dealer can't sell themself. They're most likely garbage trades that they just want the hell off their lot because they tarnish their image. Or, they're of a different make, so they won't sell it used. This is typically why a Brand X dealer will give you more for your Brand X vehicle than a Brand Y dealer.
But, I'm sure you know all this already. I apologize if I seemed to insult your intelligence. I guess I just like to type sometimes.
-C
Actually, dealers look at auction reports primarily to determine trade in, it is not necessarily so that auctions only run garbage, we get plenty of Nissans, fords, chevys etc. only a year or two old, with low miles like new, it is not just dealers that sell there, unless the vehicle is really hot, and there is no doubt he can retail it, the dealer looks at auction reports to determine the value because if it does not sell soon, they have to sell it at auction, auction reports are actually the most realistic prices as to what your trade is really worth in real money on a wholesale level.
What part of the country do you live in? Maybe me being here in the Chicago 'burbs has something to do with it?
I don't think that KKB is too accurate with lower dollar cars (or higher dollar cars either). They seem to do best with run-of-the-mill everyday people haulers (like the Grand Am and Ranger I've traded in the past couple of years).
I guess it all comes down to liquidity. Unlike a dealer, I can afford to take that low dollar trade and put it on the curb myself. For that non-selling car sitting on the lot, it takes up space and costs the dealer money just to sit there. For me, I've already taken the hit with depreciation, and it doesn't cost me much at all (well, maybe that $20 worth of insurance).
I did just that with an '89 Corolla when I bought that aforementioned Grand Am. I asked around at a few places, and $2500 was the highest offer. So, I put a for sale sign on it and sold it a week later for $3500.
I completely understand the dealer's situation. And, I take a realistic view of the trade-in price when I go shopping. I've only had someone try to lowball me once or twice in recent years. The rest have come back with an initial offer not $500 less than my target trade-in allowance (not including the tax savings).
I see we have thrown out KBB because if you punch number of like Rangers and Frontiers the numbers don't look to good to the Frontier crowd so they of course dismiss it..
OK, try carpoint or even right here at Edmunds... but of course you won't like those numbers either so they too will be dismissed right?
Gooba, you just proved to me you don't offroad with your explaination of a limited slip, nor do you know anything about diffs. A limited slip doesn't "transfer" power, its not a channel four wheel drive system, its a clutch system, doof..
You said:
Gooba, you just proved to me you don't offroad
with your explaination of a limited slip, nor do
you know anything about diffs. A limited slip
doesn't "transfer" power, its not a channel four
wheel drive system, its a clutch system, doof..
By your statement you have proven to me that you have a reading and comprehension handicap,and that you have no idea what you are talking about.
My explanation was correct and rather simplified.I did not feel that to answer the question required alot of technical jargon,and result in more questions.
Is the following better?
In a standard differential, if one wheel loses traction, it will get all the power and will spin, while the wheel with traction gets nothing. The idea of a limited-slip differential is to prevent all power from being applied to only one driving wheel when traction is lost. There are numerous types of limited-slip, positraction, locker, etc. units.
My advice to you is to know what you are talking about before you have something to say.You are a piece of work.But,hey,thanks for REALLY showing you ignorance and lack of mechanical knowledge.
I read your post about looking under your truck and your friend's truck.You gave the expected answer."DUH they look the same"You bring up the frame construction of your Ranger and you finally look and YOU STILL DO NOT KNOW WHAT YOU ARE LOOKING AT.LOL. LOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOO SER!!!!
If it wasn't for the Toyota Tundra, however, my first choice in a full size truck would be the F150 supercab. It is a good looking truck. A co-worker just purchased a '00 Tundra and the build quality is incredible. The few times I've driven in a f150, they seem to definitely be a step behind from the japanese products, IMO.
Thanks for the input on the tires. Mahimahi, are the Generals quiet on the pavement? I'll be going into tirerack in just a few.
Gooba, your explanation of LSD was simple and easy to understand, thanks.
I went without my Frontier today and now I know I'm turning into a truck guy! I didn't like the low ride in my wife's car. Also, the drive seemed boring. I missed my Frontier.
The link I gave you takes you to a review of a particular model, one with a little more aggressive tread than the stock models that I have, so i don't remember what they said about those tires on the road. Mine are very quite but like I said the tread is less aggressive. Glad I could help.
In addition, I said to compare what you actually purchase the truck for against what the trade-in value is worth.
In addition to the dealer just about paying you to take something like that off his lot (in other words, at or below invoice), you've also got a rebate of at least a 1000 up to 1500 coming as a rebate on that SuperCab XL Ranger. Does Nissan ever offer rebates? (cncman?)
I don't think you'd see much of either of those trucks produced. Try your analysis with a middle of the road truck (about what the average joe would buy) and see what happens. Go with something like a ext-cab, V6, automatic, A/C, cruise, pdl, pw, AM/FM/Cass, & alumiminum wheels.
I guess it just seems weird to me that KKB was 3,000 off with such a run of the mill car. You sure you looked at trade-in and not retail values?
I don't doubt you, I guess I'm just curious.