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The Tesla Roadster - Electric Car

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Comments

  • tpetpe Posts: 2,342
    While battery technology will continue to improve I think it is already there in terms of making EVs viable. The biggest obstacle that currently exists is cost. The materials involved in making Li-ion batteries are not all that expensive. I think that within the next few years we will see some Chinese manufacturer able to offer Li-ion batteries at a cost of around $200 per kWh with a weight of 5 kg per kWh. If I'm right EVs will become a slam dunk. I currently drive a 2003 Honda Accord. I expect that this will be my last ICE vehicle.

    There is a Chinese battery manufacturer called Advanced Battery Technologies. They have paid a licensing fee to Altair Nanotechnologies to use their Li-ion chemistry. I think that they have a good chance of making the battery at the cost and weight I'm predicting.
  • apeweekapeweek Posts: 133
    Nice dodge, however China does not have the patents, and Sony is not a Chinese company, but Japanese....

    Where did I say Sony was Chinese?

    I pointed out that China has SOME important Li-Ion patents, and actually showed you one of them. When you say "the" patents, what are you referring to? Who do you think owns "the" patents?

    What I actually said was that much or most of li-ion research and production takes place in asia.

    What 'dodge' are you accusing me of?

    Regarding exploding laptops, and li-ion safety, if you fear li-ion batteries, stay away from them. Personally, gasoline makes me nervous.
  • apeweekapeweek Posts: 133
    There is a Chinese battery manufacturer called Advanced Battery Technologies. They have paid a licensing fee to Altair Nanotechnologies to use their Li-ion chemistry. I think that they have a good chance of making the battery at the cost and weight I'm predicting.

    More good info, thanks TPE. I'm reading up on this now.

    I feel the same way. I drive a very old EV that feels like it's going to shake itself apart on the freeway. I'm waiting as long as I can to replace it, because I want something really nice.
  • tpetpe Posts: 2,342
    EVs of the future will be extremely nice. Electric motors are three times more efficient than ICEs. They are capable of producing an incredible amount of torque. Forget all the political and environmental issues. Why someone wouldn't immediately embrace this technology for performance reasons is beyond me.
  • terry92270terry92270 Posts: 1,247
    Exactly.

    Costs, suspicion, rumor, and man's inate fear of new things all work together here, in slowing progress.

    Slow. But technical advancement has never been stopped. ;)
  • apeweekapeweek Posts: 133
    I understand that Electro Energy Inc. is about to start manufacturing large format NiMH batteries based on their bipolar design. Do you think that they will be sued by Cobasys (Texaco) like Panasonic was?

    I just looked at this website today. Their methodology allows them to build high-voltage/low-AH batteries. This is just speculation, but this could be a deliberate attempt at a workaround to the Cobasys anti-EV licensing restrictions, which is reportedly focused on high-AH batteries.

    Typically, in an EV, you would take several high-AH batteries and connect them in series to get to the voltage you need. With this approach, each battery would already be at a high voltage, and you would then connect many in parallel to get the AH rating you need for your EV.
  • Because it is a lab experiment and there is no current way to package it efficiently and to put the infrastructure together to have "recharge" stations.
  • apeweekapeweek Posts: 133
    "there is no current way to package it efficiently and to put the infrastructure together to have "recharge" stations."

    We have an electric infrastructure in this country already: electric outlets. That's a principal advantage that EVs have over proposed hydrogen autos, which will require substantial infrastructure investment. The existing electric infrastructure can easily support millions of EVs like the Tesla charging overnight, using off-peak power.

    The "recharge" stations are in the customer's garages. On the road the car can be charged from standard electric outlets.

    Yes, we all know about the limited range, and the fact that recharging takes a few hours. These cars will not be to everyone's tastes - but then, neither are motorcycles, or RVs, or pickup trucks. There are still plenty of consumers for those specialized vehicles.
  • Hey I need to recharge my car mind if I park in your garage for the night? What you don't know me? ROFLMAO

    No apeweek , there is no "recharge infrastructure" for EVs!

    Second the only currenlt avaialbe technology is overnigth charge? that charge period and associated technology need s to be 15 minutes or less. Were are not there!

    Motorcycles, RVs and pickup trucks can all recharge with the existing gas/diesel service station infrastructure. EV cannot unless strangers are willing to give away electricity. "Hey stranger cna you spare a charge?"

    Maybe KOAs could be used but still too widespread and far apart for the limited EV range and the long recharge time.

    Oh sorry, I didn't realize you were serious Oh My!!!!

    Charge on - MidCow
  • terry92270terry92270 Posts: 1,247
    Never mind the hundreds of liability problems, licenses that would be needed, and the problem that if they are classified as "service stations" by localities, the provider would also have to offer clean and spotless rest rooms, etc.

    I think your beef is with the insurance industry and their demands and regulations. If so, get in line! :P
  • apeweekapeweek Posts: 133
    ...No apeweek , there is no "recharge infrastructure" for EVs!

    Clearly we are out of sync on our definitions. The electric car is a different paradigm, it will not fit into exactly the same mold as ICE cars. It is not impossible that service stations could offer fast charging someday, but this is not critical to the EV's success. Changes in "the way people have always done things" will not be acceptable to some, for sure. But the advantages of EVs will drive others to embrace change. It is not necessary to sell everybody on this idea.

    If we were having our discussion 100 years ago, when gas and electric vehicles last competed for market share, I would be the one telling you that there is no infrastructure for your gasoline car, whereas my electric car can plug into any electric outlet, at any private home or business. My paradigm would not apply to you, as it would not be your goal to fuel from any of those places, and not necessary to the ICE's success.

    Electric cars appeal to me for exactly the reason they do not appeal to you - I like the idea of never going to a gas station again. The idea of fueling in my own home is immensely appealing.

    I drive an EV (a very old one.) As for recharging on the road, I carry an extension cord for this purpose. While business owners can be taken aback at first when I request to plug in at their establishments, I haven't been turned down yet. A few cents of electricity is a small price for my business, after all. (I haven't had to do this often.)

    This, I think, would be the logical evolution of EV charging. If EVs catch on, people would be topping off their charges at restaurants, motels, and Wal-Marts. This is what I mean when I say the infrastructure is already here. Adding a few outlets here and there is trivial, and would happen naturally without government mandates or massive corporate investments. During the EV years in California, many Costcos installed charging stations to lure EV owners to shop there. This is exactly what free enterprise will make happen if EVs catch on.

    Note also that I don't have to shop for a full three hours to fully charge my car. If I charge for 30 minutes here, 15 minutes there, I can get more than enough charge to finish my errands, or make it those last few miles home.

    Fast recharging will also become moot with battery advances. We have seen maximum EV ranges increase from 50 miles in the 1980s to 200+ miles in this decade. Battery research in the pipeline now could easily make this 300, 400 and then 500+ miles in the next 10-20 years. At some point, drivers will cease worrying about recharging. Just drive for 500 miles, plug in at a motel overnight, and repeat the next day.
  • tpetpe Posts: 2,342
    I agree completely.

    Those that criticize EVs for their limited range are bringing up another problem. The fact that people feel they need to drive over 200 miles on a regular basis is something that needs to be dealt with. Even if gas was as cheap and plentiful as water increased congestion on our roadways is rapidly eroding the effectiveness of our transportation system. More and more private vehicles driving more and more miles per year is unsustainable regardless of the fuel supply.
  • terry92270terry92270 Posts: 1,247
    "Those that criticize EVs for their limited range are bringing up another problem. The fact that people feel they need to drive over 200 miles on a regular basis is something that needs to be dealt with."

    Very Fascist thinking, isn't that? :surprise:

    Do you have some "final solution" in dealing with those silly people who insist on driving when and wherever they wish? Perhaps government madated relocations, so they won't have to drive so far to work....maybe a system of permits and licenses restricting their driving habits, sensors in all cars, and maybe if they repeatedly violate the new order of driving restrictions (Instituted to save the planet, of course!) we could haul off their wife, or one of the kids, to make them see the light?

    Your environmental zeal is overshadowing your good sense, IMO.
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Pennsylvania Furnace, PAPosts: 9,351
    Let's not turn this personal please.

    Edmunds Moderator

    Silver 2012 Nissan Versa Hatchback & White 2019 Nissan Rogue S

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  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel a Certified Edmunds Poster.Posts: 15,705
    Very Fascist thinking, isn't that?

    No fascist thinking at all. Most people are put off on EV's due to a limited mileage while all the time not realizing that they rarely drive that far. Once people realize that they only drive 40, 50, 60 miles in a day their adversion will subside.

    I would hazard to say that most households have two or more cars, of those two at least one isn't (or doesn't have to be) driven more than 100 miles or so on any given day. So why can't one car be electric?

    I would guestimate that a majority of households can get along very well with one EV.

    So a family has two cars, one ICE and the other EV. When they go to work, run errands, shop or whatnot either car can be driven. They go out of town for the weekend or take the family on a vacation they can take the ICE car.

    When they drive where ever they want use the ICE, no one is saying they can't. All they are saying is they have to realize that normal day to day driving is well within the range of the EV's that are coming out today.

    2008 Sebring Ragtop, 2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • terry92270terry92270 Posts: 1,247
    I have constantly agreed about EV's having a place in most people's driving.

    However, it is rather chilling for people to say, as you did, that driving as one wants needs to be "dealt" with.....

    Can you see that?
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Pennsylvania Furnace, PAPosts: 9,351
    Let's NOT make this about each other please.

    Edmunds Moderator

    Silver 2012 Nissan Versa Hatchback & White 2019 Nissan Rogue S

    Need some roadside assistance? [email protected] - or send a private message by clicking on my name.

    Just purchased or leased a vehicle? Write your own vehicle review

  • tpetpe Posts: 2,342
    I merely pointed out that the steady increased usage of our highways is unsustainable. I don't think this represents an opinion. I believe there is plenty of hard evidence regarding time spent in congestion and deteriorating road conditions that will back this up. You apparently disagree and don't see a problem with us driving 2-3% more miles every year.

    I think we have a situation where demand has exceeded supply when it comes to our highway's capacity. The best way to deal with this is a free market approach. No Fascism required. Increase the cost for road usage and you will fund expansion, decrease demand, encourage better urban planning until you've achieved an equilibrium. Some might complain that this is unfair to the poor. I'm sure there are derogatory labels that could be attached to that argument.

    Actually when people start calling others fascists or making ludicrous suggestions about hauling away their family that represents a situation where they have a position that can't be rationally defended.
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel a Certified Edmunds Poster.Posts: 15,705
    Can you see that?

    No I can't seeing that, no one said anything about dealing with how one wants to drive. What has been said is that peoples perceptions need to be addressed. No one ever said that driving as one wants needs to be "dealt" with.

    What needs to be addressed is the perception that an EV with a 200 mile radius will not work for most people. In reality most people rarely drive more than 200 miles in their daily routine.

    Now will you please stop attributing things to people that they never said.

    Can you see that?

    2008 Sebring Ragtop, 2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • Random thoughts:

    I don't think highway congestion has much link to trips over two hundred miles..more to do with more people making short trips or commutes. See rush hour traffic for evidence. At any given time the number of folks making long hauls seems relatively few...at least to what my common sense tells me.

    Cars per household?

    The first National Household Travel Survey (NHTS) of the 21st century shows that an average of 1.9 personal vehicles is owned or available to U.S. households — more than the 1.8 drivers per household.

    http://usgovinfo.about.com/cs/censusstatistic/a/carsperhouse.htm?terms=travel+st- atistics

    Looking up and down my very modest neighborhood, I think this holds true. More cars than drivers...what a crack-up. :)

    Others like myself might hold onto an old vehicle for longer trips when needed. But looking back over the last couple years..I've don't think I've gone more than about 200 in a day over maybe 15 vacation type trips I've taken.
  • terry92270terry92270 Posts: 1,247
    Well, I was talking ideas here, not people.....

    If government increases road taxes, or makes a per-mile tax, that is fascism, a manipulation of people to get what government wants, is it not?

    When someone says people who wish to drive as they want need to be dealt with, what is that? Is it not a belief that others have the right to regulate behavior they do not like, for the "greater good"?

    I'll bow out of this, as even the Moderator cannot tell the difference between someone questioning another's opinion and attacking them personally, and a poster hiding by not wanting to take responsibility for their posted opinion, and labeling someone who disagrees with personal name calling, lol. :surprise:

    Somehow I think Edmunds wanted to encourage debate, or someone did, by making the forum names as they are. Since advanced technology always spurs spirited debate, perhaps forums about the subject need to be deleted, not censored.
  • tpetpe Posts: 2,342
    Actually I did say we have a problem with ever increasing road congestion that needs to be dealt with. The only options I see are to ignore the problem, increase highway capacity, or encourage more efficient driving habits. Let's assume that ignoring the problem is a bad idea. Let's also assume you believe that people should be free to drive as much as they want. That leaves continually expanding our roadways. I personally believe that at some point we will run into a brick wall following that approach where new roads can't be built fast enough and existing roads can't be maintained. Maybe I'm wrong. It wouldn't be the first time. But if I'm not wrong at some point it is inevitable that we view our roads as a limited resource that need to be allocated efficiently.
  • dhanleydhanley Posts: 1,531
    "Very Fascist thinking, isn't that? :surprise: "

    I don't think so. I am a big roadtripper. Have driven to chicago(oak park) to san diego in just under 40 hours flat. Also, chicago to albuquerque in ~18. Albuquerque->oceanside in under 9 hours. Unless you've done that, you aren't a hard user.

    However, i could use an electric car. I do a lot of driving around chicago that would be served well by batteries. If i could plug in at home and not buy gas for a few months, well, that woud be great!

    I could have 2 cars, easy enough in a typical married household, or rent for that few-times-a-year road trip.

    I don't think of that as fascist. I think of it as saving money, so i can buy more chevron stock!

    :)
  • terry92270terry92270 Posts: 1,247
    Read exactly what was said:

    "Those that criticize EVs for their limited range are bringing up another problem. The fact that people feel they need to drive over 200 miles on a regular basis is something that needs to be dealt with."

    Now I believe in EV's, which your post breezes over, and makes it seem as if I was speaking against electric cars. My point was about those who seem to think they need the government to dictate how others should drive....get it? ;)
  • john500john500 Posts: 409
    There was a one page article about the Tesla Roadster in the latest Car and Driver issue. It indicated that a lot of the car is Lotus-based. Should be fun to drive. I did not see that on the web site with a quick glance.
  • tpetpe Posts: 2,342
    The government dictates a lot of things. Not always through taxation or incentives but often times through laws and threat of punishment. I don't know of a single government that this does not apply to. Maybe they're all fascist to varying degrees. At that point the term loses its significance. The government primarily sets laws or policies to discourage behaviour that is contrary to the public interest. As congestion gets worse the indiscriminate, inefficient use of this limited resource (highways) may be seen as a behaviour that needs to be discouraged.

    I think there are a lot of ways to measure the effectiveness of a particular transportation system. One of the big factors is the time it takes to get from pt A to pt B. By that criteria I believe the system we have of using private vehicles is past its prime. I know that the trips I commonly take require more time than 10-15 years ago and the trend shows no signs of letting up. Maybe it still represents the best method but the way things are going that won't always be the case without some controls put in. Is that fascist? Without emission controls placed on manufacturers we'd have air that is unbreathable. Leaving it up to the individual to regulate his road usage will eventually result in an oversaturated system that is unpassable.

    A quote from Dr. Paul Macready, the principal engineer behind the EV1.

    Looking Beyond the EV1
    "The one great thing this whole electric car mandate in California has done," MacCready observed, "it's got people to start... thinking more broadly about what is mobility and what do we need. Gee, adding a zero emission car that maybe doesn't take any energy to the car fleet of California, doesn't do anything for pollution. Getting rid of an old car that's polluting a lot, that helps. But one more nice car just adds to traffic and parking problems. We have to look at the whole system of mobility rather than just a vehicle."

    "When I give talks, I say that if everybody had a Massaratti that runs on Cold Fusion, would that be good? No, you'd have one big traffic jam. You'd look like Bangkok. So you have to look at mobility in broader terms including telecommuting where you don't go, you don't use any energy; land use planning, where the suburbs are, car pooling, mass transit, life style.
  • dhanleydhanley Posts: 1,531
    "My point was about those who seem to think they need the government to dictate how others should drive....get it? ;)"

    "something that needs to be dealth with" doesn't mean that the govermnment needs to legally dicatate it. Get it?
  • "..so i can buy more chevron stock! " You're a day late on that one. needed to buy before the Jack field was announced in the Gulf of Mexico. Actually it looks like the stock anaylsysts are that impressed went up 3 points yesterday already coming back down.

    The discussion seems to be getting away from Telsa and more toward the problem of increasing driven-miles. or a mass transportation infrastructure which will cost significant government funding and involvement.

    Again, the Telsa is a experimental concept and to put it into actual production might take place , but again you have a lot of design and developmental and infrastructure obstacles to overcome.

    It also appears from other discussions the understanding of EV is a whole shift in thinking of complete home charging, which will be too large of paradigm shift for most for a long time. Almost as large as me going from maunal to automatic.

    Cheers,

    MidCow
  • alp8alp8 Posts: 656
    If government increases road taxes, or makes a per-mile tax, that is fascism, a manipulation of people to get what government wants, is it not?

    um, no, that is called "government"

    if you are so bent on using the term "Fascism" then I suggest you start with a definition, perhaps at Wikipedia

    not all government regulation is "fascism" - that is just silly

    electric cars work regardless of whether we "need" them. Provided the air quality/water quality, etc. is maintained at the point of manufacture, the use of the vehicle can help alleviate local air quality concerns. And that is very important in areas with poor air quality. Of course, it's not just cars causing problems in such areas, and those other sources will have to be "dealt with"

    :-)
  • alp8alp8 Posts: 656
    I don't see why cars/household is a valid parameter for defining anything, other than how many cars each household has. It's not an indicator of environmental degradation, which is what is assumed.

    I currently own a convertible. If I buy an EV and don't sell my convertible. How is that causing enviro damage? It's not like I can drive both at the same time.

    Keep in mind that if you demean someone who owns a large SUV and another high MPG vehicle (EV or otherwise), it is more likely that they will dump the high MPG vehicle and keep the truck. There is nothing wrong with keeping both, and using the truck when needed (ie to haul stuff, etc.).

    Yes, it does take more resources to build two vehicles than one, but I am not talking about going out and buying two new vehicles at the same time. The 2 vehicle approach works for A LOT of people, and I have seen no good case made that it causes enviro damage.
  • I guess i need to work on getting my specific point across in my posts. There was some discussion upthread of how practical the EV with its limited range might be for the average Josephine. I provided evidence that most households have two vehicles already and therefore an EV's limited range might not be a problem for many...thus allowing it to compete as far more than a niche market car. I wasn't really talking about environmental issues at all.
  • and from the last line of my original post:

    "Others like *myself* might hold onto an old vehicle for longer trips when needed."
  • tpetpe Posts: 2,342
    I agree but I actually think an EV would be adequate as the sole vehicle for a lot of people. If you only make long trips a couple times a year it is almost certainly cheaper to rent on those occasions. If you sometimes need the utility of a larger vehicle for hauling purposes then at that point cars like Toyota Camrys and Honda Accords are no longer suitable as an only vehicle either and the EV issue isn't even relevant.
  • I agree with that. I would be one of those who would accept the range limitation if advantages as anticipated are real. They would outweigh the rare inconvenience..at lest for me. That is my situation now as a matter of fact. I would keep me "remodeling" vehicle, even if I went with a Camry/Corolla/Yaris type car.

    What are the chances that the initial ev models will be upgradable as new technology comes along?
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel a Certified Edmunds Poster.Posts: 15,705
    What are the chances that the initial ev models will be upgradable as new technology comes along?

    What are the chances of upgrading ICE cars as new technology comes along?

    2008 Sebring Ragtop, 2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • tpetpe Posts: 2,342
    What are the chances that the initial ev models will be upgradable as new technology comes along?

    That's an interesting question. Electric motors are already around 94% efficient and have very long life expectancies so there isn't much room for improvement there. While a battery pack isn't something that you want to replace if the need did arise several years down the road that would almost certainly represent an upgrade. There is also software involved that controls and optimizes these systems. I imagine that would see some enhancements over time and would be fairly simple and inexpensive to install. There are also companies working on what is essentially spray-on photo-voltaic coatings. That is something that could potentially be applied to the exterior of a car to give it slightly more range and re-charge while parking capability. Bottom line is that the upgrade potential is huge compared to an ICE. As long as it doesn't rust away and you don't get sick of the styling it could very well be the last car you buy. Probably the main reason the established auto manufacturers aren't all that enthusiastic about supporting them. Remember the term "planned obsolescence"? That was coined by Detroit.
  • alp8alp8 Posts: 656
    redd: Although I replied to your post, I wasn't really meaning to "argue" with your comments. Just framing an issue you discussed in a slightly different way.
  • terry92270terry92270 Posts: 1,247
    God, its almost as if some in here are getting their material written by Al-Gore. I gotta break out some granola! :P
  • I do hope that Tesla has replaced their current batteries with either supercapacitors or a battery technology that doesn't require replacing every few years (I consider a life of 5 years = few years). Without this need to be replacing batteries, it's very conceivable that an electric car could be considered a longer term purchase than an ICE vehicle.

    No matter how much I've read about how safe Tesla has made the current batteries, I just can't help feeling some level of concern that something unexpected might go wrong to cause an explosion or fire, and don't want to be the one that is the exception to prove that the unexpected can happen. I'm aware that gasoline is also an explosive material, I'm also aware that it seems to require an outside source to cause an explosion, which doesn't seem to be the case for their current Li-ion batteries.
  • tpetpe Posts: 2,342
    Tesla Motors isn't going to deliver its first vehicle until the middle of next year. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see a change in their battery configuration by then. I share your concerns regarding the battery pack that they are currently testing the car with. From what I've read they have essentially hooked up about 7,000 Li-ion cells that are very similar to what you see in a laptop. We all know about the hazards and shortcomings involved with this type of battery. Basically they have achieved a higher level of safety through their packaging and monitoring of the individual cells but that doesn't necessarily mean they won't fail or degrade. It just won't be catastrophic. There are companies right now that claim to have made Li-ion chemistry inherently safe and capable of far more charge cycles. If these claims are at all correct that seems like the way to go. Again, it wouldn't surprise me if the battery pack they are using was purely to prove a concept and demonstrate performance/range capabilities. We'll see next year.
  • At some point you have to just build with the best available product. Supercapaciters are a long ways away. It is like computers were...if you kept waiting for the next upgrade you would never buy a computer because you knew it would be obsolete is six months. At some point the technology advances, and though computers get better, the ones out now will do the job for 95% of users. I think 200-250 mile range though not perfect is pretty close to usable for a lot of folks.
  • tpetpe Posts: 2,342
    I agree that 200-250 mile range is more than adequate for most people. My hope is that these batteries can continue to deliver this range, or close to it, for a period of 5 years or greater. Its a legitimate concern because Li-ion batteries have yet to demonstrate this longevity. I have my fingers crossed that this won't be an issue but if battery capacity is reduced by 50% in 3 years then this is the type of negative publicity that would represent a major PR setback for BEVs.

    An interesting press release from Altair Nanotechnologies. While its prudent to be somewhat skeptical of this type of information I've got to believe there is some substance to it. At least I hope so.

    http://www.b2i.us/profiles/investor/ResLibraryView.asp?BzID=546&ResLibraryID=170- 08&Category=856
  • terry92270terry92270 Posts: 1,247
    The good thing about all of that is, when most of us are in the Nursing Home, we will have some interesting reading about Tesla's soon-to-be-released first production model, and how one can be one of the first to purchase one... :P
  • about as likely as upgrading you desktop PC or laptop unless the new "cahrging station" infrastucture provides trade-ins and/or free upgrades along with their capichino and lattes.

    MY charge is running low .. .

    MidCow
  • tpetpe Posts: 2,342
    People upgrade their PCs all the time.

    You know with Bill Ford stepping down as CEO of Ford Motors I'm somewhat surprised they didn't contact you for the position. Your forward thinking and vision would have been a perfect fit for top management at a domestic auto manufacturer.
  • if electric motors are laread 94% efficient there is not much room for improvement. So the real bootm line is that this is minimla upgrade potential compared to ICE, unless of course you can develop frictionless motor bearings.

    Remember Brooks Stevens born 1911 died 1995:

    As one of the country's first industrial designers, he helped to decide how many of the objects that surround us should look. He is particularly noted for his automotive designs-such as the Willys-Overland Jeepster, the Studebaker Gran Turismo Hawk, and the Excalibur-but he and his firm created designs for almost anything you can think of: motors, toys, packages, appliances, bicycles, planes, trains, and even clothing. Also, Stevens was a design theorist. He coined the term "planned obsolescence," which is still the subject of much debate today.

    Stevens lived in an era when people were not as conscious of threats to the environment as we are today. All the same, however, he was always careful to say that planned obsolescence was not the same as organized waste. He envisioned "obsolete" products going on the secondhand market, where they could be purchased by people of lower incomes. That way, he reasoned, everyone would have access to more and better goods. Of course, it hasn't always worked out that way, but perhaps it's unfair to blame Stevens for that.
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel a Certified Edmunds Poster.Posts: 15,705
    about as likely as upgrading you desktop PC or laptop

    In reality a lot more likely. Computers are relatively cheap and upgrading one is slightly less than buying a new one.

    Now with an EV it is possible to make them with plug in components that make upgrading them far easier. With some forethought it wouldn't be hard to engineer an EV to accept technologies that are just today being developed. Hence if done correctly an EV today may be able to accept super capacitors that would come out 10 years from now with minimal cost and effort.

    2008 Sebring Ragtop, 2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • "People upgrade their PCs all the time. "

    No they don't.

    They buy completely news ones! In case you haven't looked a brand new desk top is less than $300 and a laptop less than $500. And the development cycle is less and less.

    My source, I am in the IT business LOL and have been for many years.

    MidCow

    P.S.- Turned down the job, "I had a better idea .."
  • tpetpe Posts: 2,342
    All I can say is that you are 100% wrong. A $300 desktop contains zero top of the line components. If you really are in the IT business I doubt you use a $300 computer but maybe you do. People that buy entry level computers probably won't upgrade them because they don't care. Here's another example, a good percentage of PCs are bought by gamers. They wouldn't consider a $300 desktop but would routinely upgrade their graphics card, sound card, monitor, i/o devices, add memory, etc... People that are into music or photography will add additional hard drives. It really isn't that difficult. Maybe you can get someone in your company to show you how.
  • "They buy completely news ones!"

    That is pretty much true, save upgrades in monitors and memory.

    Any store bought pc these days is good enough for what most of us do with them. You don't really get much by upgrading the cpu these days. As the technology was developing people were more likely to upgrade from a 286 to a 386 or what not. It was cost effective and you could actually see difference in speed.
    now, us ave folk beyond a better monitor and possibly more memory there is no point and by the time you throw in the latest operating system it is not worth it.

    Of course there is no perfect analogy for the EV, but I would suspect development in battery technology will allow more efficient and cheaper units to be mass produced, so upgrading the battery to get another 100 miles in range might be popular. (Much as it was worth it for some to replace the CPU in earlier puters.) Especially since the batteries will eventually need to be replaced in any case. I don't know if the computer architecture in the cars will be built to handle this.
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