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The Tesla Roadster - Electric Car

135

Comments

  • From the Tesla web page:

    "If you drove 250 miles/day and recharged 500 times, then you would have driven 125,000 miles! We expect the performance of the battery to decline at that point, but it will still be a gradual drop in performance. If you rephrase the question, think of how much gas you would save if you drove your electric Roadster for 125,000 miles!"

    "If you drove 250 miles/day and recharged 500 times, then you would have driven 125,000 miles! We expect the performance of the battery to decline at that point, but it will still be a gradual drop in performance. If you rephrase the question, think of how much gas you would save if you drove your electric Roadster for 125,000 miles!"

    http://www.teslamotors.com/learn_more/faqs.php?PHPSESSID=486e9c7df4d4a8f1509456d- - fe1582420

    Startup companies are notoriously optimistic. We'll have to see how this plays out. At 15k miles driven a year, it looks like they expect 6 years or so battery life. Then a "slow" decline. not too shabby.
  • alp8alp8 Posts: 656
    I'm guessing redd doesn't have any teenaged sons, nor is he a gamer, himself

    people do upgrade as one of the posters, above, mentioned

    easier to upgrade a pc than a car

    still, it's probably not a significant part of the market

    just as people upgrade brakes, suspension components, and the like
  • tpetpe Posts: 2,342
    Startup companies are notoriously optimistic.

    That's probably true but the owner/founder of Tesla Motors seems to be a little more conservative in his estimates. There is someplace on their website where he is quoted as saying that with his driving style he only expects to get 200 miles per charge. Also they are telling customers that even though the battery pack is rated for 500 charges (125k miles) they anticipate a 100k mile life expectancy. The part about Li-ion batteries that is difficult to predict is how they will age. I'm sure they have done tests where they rapidly charge and discharge these batteries but Li-ion chemistry has a property where it loses storage capacity purely as a function of time. That is probably harder to evaluate without real world data.
  • tpetpe Posts: 2,342
    still, it's probably not a significant part of the market

    I don't know, it depends on how you define significant. There are a lot of online vendors like Atomic Park, Newegg, The Nerds, etc., that do a good business selling computer upgrade/replacement components, including CPUs and Motherboards. For $150 you can get a CPU/Motherboard combination that will blow away what is available on a $300 bargain basement PC. And it really isn't all that hard to replace. The major computer manufacturers design their cases with this in mind. Dell's cases slide open without even the need for a screwdriver. MidnightCowboy says he is an IT professional but I suspect he is in charge of his office's BizHub. You know, the email machine.
  • alp8alp8 Posts: 656
    I think you have to assume re-charging every day (night). Not sure if topping-off is good or bad, but that's what is most likely to happen.

    You pull in the driveway and you plug it in. That's at least 300 charges/year, which means a battery life of less than two years.

    but I may have read that topping-off improves battery life.

    Not sure if any of you have read about the potential for signing contracts with utilities where you would buy cheaper power at night in exchange for you driving to your workplace, plugging in, and then letting the local utility suck off your battery to help even out local electiricy needs. Interesting stuff. Just another way that we might avoid building a bunch of new power plants.

    Not sure it is a good thing, but it is interesting.
  • alp8alp8 Posts: 656
    yes, true - even 1% of the computer sales market is a "significant" dollar figure
  • I'm guessing redd doesn't have any teenaged sons, nor is he a gamer, himself

    alp8 is correct.

    perhaps more people upgrade than i know. I was likening the CPU to the battery in an EV. Do many upgrade CPUs anymore? I don't honestly know. The people I know simply get a new puter when the time comes, but my experience may vary greatly from the norm. I'll leave dungeons and dragons or grand theft auto to the boys in the basement.

    OTOH, battery life in a car is not infinite. Since you must replace it anyway or scrap the whole car, my original question was regarding if newer technology can simply be plugged in without too much infrastructure work.
  • alp8alp8 Posts: 656
    OTOH, battery life in a car is not infinite. Since you must replace it anyway or scrap the whole car, my original question was regarding if newer technology can simply be plugged in without too much infrastructure work.

    and that is a good question
  • tpetpe Posts: 2,342
    I think that when a battery is rated at a life expectancy of 500 charge cycles they mean complete charges. So if you top off when your battery still has 75% of its charge left that only counts as 1/4 of a cycle.
  • I'm sure they have done tests where they rapidly charge and discharge these batteries but Li-ion chemistry has a property where it loses storage capacity purely as a function of time. That is probably harder to evaluate without real world data.

    THAT could be a significant problem depending on how long we are talking about.
  • Not sure if any of you have read about the potential for signing contracts with utilities where you would buy cheaper power at night in exchange for you driving to your workplace, plugging in, and then letting the local utility suck off your battery to help even out local electricity needs. Interesting stuff. Just another way that we might avoid building a bunch of new power plants.

    Just someone's luck; they pull in at the office and plug the vehicle in and find that by the time they're ready to go home, there isn't enough charge left to get home, lol. But of course, if the user has a way of dialing in how much electricity they would be able to part with, I guess this would be workable.
  • tpe said : "I think that when a battery is rated at a life expectancy of 500 charge cycles they mean complete charges. So if you top off when your battery still has 75% of its charge left that only counts as 1/4 of a cycle. "
    That is a common misnomer, actually on typical NI-CAD (Nickel Cadmium) batteries recharging on a partial charge is more detimental and significantly reduces the number of total recharge cycles. it also cause retained memeory and reduces the effective amp-hour capacity.

    It is sometimes claimed that NiCd batteries suffer from a so-called "memory effect" if they are recharged before they have been fully discharged. The apparent symptom is that the battery "remembers" the point in its charge cycle where recharging began and during subsequent use suffers a sudden drop in voltage at that point, as if the battery had been discharged. The capacity of the battery is not actually reduced substantially. Some electronics designed to be powered by NiCds are able to withstand this reduced voltage long enough for the voltage to return to normal. However, if the device is unable to operate through this period of decreased voltage, the device will be unable to get as much energy out of the battery, and for all practical purposes, the battery has a reduced capacity.

    There is controversy about whether the memory effect actually exists, or whether it is as serious a problem as is sometimes believed. Some critics claim it is used to promote competing NiMH batteries, which apparently suffer this effect to a lesser extent. Many nickel-cadmium battery manufacturers either deny this effect exists or are silent on the matter.

    An effect with similar symptoms to the memory effect is the so-called "lazy battery effect". (Note, however, that some people use this term as a synonym for "memory effect"). This effect is the result of repeated overcharging; the symptom is that the battery appears to be fully charged but discharges quickly after only a brief period of operation. Sometimes, much of the lost capacity can be recovered by a few deep discharge cycles, a function often provided by automatic NiCd battery chargers. If treated well, NiCd batteries can last for 1000 cycles, or more, before capacity drops below 50% of what it was originally.

    NiCd batteries, when not used regularly, tend to develop dendrites (thin, conductive crystals), causing internal short circuits and premature battery failure, long before the 800-1000 charge/discharge cycles claimed by most vendors. Sometimes, these dendrites can be cleared by applying a brief, high-current charging pulse to individual cells, but once dendrites have begun to form, they will typically recur soon thereafter.

    Biz-Hub operator LOL thats a good one! Then I guess I am way, way overpaid.

    Wait intil February to replace your PC becuase the Vista software will be the standard OS then. Yes back in 286, 386, 486 days it was cheaper to upgrade. Nowadays, if you will check , most PC upgrade shops have gone out of business. It is just easier and more cost effective to replace with brand new equipment. No from a business perspective we don't buy the bottom of the line desktops, laptops and workstations. But when you buy in volume you can get a Dell Lattitude D610 for about half of retail price.

    Getting back to the Telsa. After the first generation comes out there will be a second and ... other generations. More than likely the infrastructure, wiring harness, microprocessors, sensors, programming, mechanical engine components , even the electic motors will change in total and it will be fairly expensive to upgrade from gen 1 to gen 2. But hey I'm just a Biz-Hub operator what would I know ;) ?

    Cheers,

    MidCow
  • apeweekapeweek Posts: 133
    ...That is a common misnomer, actually on typical NI-CAD (Nickel Cadmium) batteries recharging on a partial charge is more detimental...

    You are clearly talking about NI-CD batteries, which are not used in any electric cars I know about.

    The memory efect of which you speak is a NI-CD phenomenon only.

    The Tesla, and other new electric cars, use LI-ION batteries.

    From the FAQ at Tesla Motors:

    Li-Ion batteries are good for 500 complete charge/discharge cycles. One cycle consists of discharging the pack from 100% state of charge (SOC) to 0% SOC. Realistically, drivers will not completely discharge their pack. More likely, drivers will drive the car for 50 or 100 miles then plug it back in to charge it up to 100% SOC. Driving only 50 miles is only a partial discharge, roughly using 20% of the charge. If a driver continues to drive 50 miles every day and recharges every night, then after 5 days they would complete the equivalent of one charge/discharge cycle.

    In any event, the battery pack is guaranteed for 100,000 miles, so you can take it up with Tesla if they don't make it that far.
  • tpetpe Posts: 2,342
    For someone that works in the computer industry you don't seem all that familiar with backwards compatibility. It is rather unusual for new developments to make existing technology useless. It does sometimes happen but that's only when supporting an old standard imposes such a hinderance to advancement. In the context of this discussion we are primarily talking about battery pack upgrades. Are you stating that future batteries won't be compatible with older EVs? Or are you stating that even though they may be it will be cheaper to replace the entire vehicle? In either case I disagree, again.

    Hey, did you ever figure out how to get coffee on the BizHub?
  • tpetpe Posts: 2,342
    The memory efect of which you speak is a NI-CD phenomenon only.

    Not to mention the Cadmium in NiCd batteris is considered a hazardous waste product. Li-ion batteries are not. I don't think we will be seeing NiCd batteries in any future EVs.
  • Oh yeah backward compatability, legacy systems. New cars typically don't adhere to backward compatibility, not part of the marketing plan of selling new cars. Haven't heard many advertisments to upgrade my Porsche 911 to a Porsche Cayman.

    Interesting note about the Lithium-Ion still too expensive for hybrids, but maybe not for $100K electric car. Smaller more power, but still the same heat recall the recent Sony battery fire problem? The solution chilled water and a radiator to cool the Lithium Ion heat discharge.

    My BizHub has one of those coffee holders. You just push the CD button.

    Now the big question: If don't tell you about something/everything does that mean I am not familiar with it? LOL, you probably assume impedance always equals resistance because you assume the amperage and the voltage are in phase.

    Cheers,

    MidCow
  • terry92270terry92270 Posts: 1,247
    I posted a $100K electric car. It uses lead-acid batteries.

    1,100 pounds of them. :sick:
  • Although I want one, I have to accept a couple of things:

    1. The batteries will need to be greatly improved in the speed of recharge. This will be needed as a way to spur the development of a fast recharge infrastructure in order to allow us to use the vehicle for more than just a commuter.

    2. The batteries used will need to be greatly improved in the number of times they can be recharged. I believe this is necessary so that the cost of the batteries doesn't become part of the 'cost of ownership'. If I have to pay 30k for batteries, but I'm able to recover 80% of that cost when I sell the vehicle (since the batteries don't have to be replaced) then I've greatly reduced the total cost of ownership. I hope that the replacement battery pack for the Tesla will be of this type instead of the current version.

    3. For those of us that can't afford two vehicles, we will most likely focus on a vehicle that can satisfy 99% of our driving needs. Until a fast recharge infrastructure is in place or a vehicles range is greatly increased, an EV will not satisfy most peoples needs as their only vehicle. More power to those that can afford this particular vehicle though and for families that can afford multiple vehicles so that they, at least, will be able to consider a 2nd vehicle that serves primarily as a commuter!
  • tpetpe Posts: 2,342
    The Tesla Roadster was never meant to be a vehicle for the masses. It is a high profile showpiece of what an EV can be and in that sense it is an excellent execution.

    I've read several of your posts and I think that I have a good idea of where you're coming from. With that said I think you will agree with me on the point I'm about to make. The Tesla Roadster has a 1,000 lb battery pack that will provide it with 250 mile range per charge. This battery pack probably costs $40-50k. There are now new battery technologies that have a far higher power density. With these new batteries a 200 lb battery pack could provide all the power needed to achieve the same Tesla Roadster performance. So why not go with this 200 lb battery pack and a 200 lb efficient diesel generator? You save 600 lbs and a lot of money. The 200 lb battery pack would provide 40-50 miles of all electric driving. This accounts for the vast majority of all driving done by Americans. Occasionally this generator would have to kick in and you would be burning fuel. Oh well. I read a nice quote along these lines from the President of UC Davis. He said that good is not the enemy of perfect.
  • terry92270terry92270 Posts: 1,247
    "Good is not the enemy of perfect."

    Perfect quote! :P
  • You are correct in concluding that I feel (fairly strongly) that having a 50-100 mile electric driving range, with an efficient motor generator to provide extended driving range, will be the solution for the near term. Diesel is one option although I believe a flex-fuel option might be nice as an option. I admit that my preference is to be able to have a single vehicle that can satisfy most (if not all) of my specific driving needs.

    More power to those that can (and do) accept an electric only solution!
  • So, what is gained with this serial thing?

    If using an ICE to charge a battery to run an electric motor is somehow more efficient than driving the wheels with an ICE, why hasn't someone just used this as the primary system long ago? That is, regardless of the size of the battery, the power from the ICE/generator could be used to drive the motor?

    I tend to think that this
    ICE-->generator-->battery-->motor, chain can't lead to a gain in efficiency. I guess aside from the simplified trans, what else do you get?
    Can you really get by with a smaller engine if you want a serial to be able to run completely on gas when needed?
    Seems to defy my rudimentary knowledge of physics.
    Engineers out there?

    On edit: Ok, I just thought of one advantage. The battery can be charged while the car is stopped in idle.
  • tpetpe Posts: 2,342
    I tend to think that this
    ICE-->generator-->battery-->motor, chain can't lead to a gain in efficiency. I guess aside from the simplified trans, what else do you get?


    I used to feel the same way and maybe you are correct. The gain might come from the fact that when the engine kicked in to re-charge the batteries it would always run at its peak efficiency in terms of power generation per fuel usage. And once the battery was adequately re-charged the engine would shut down. This is not the case when the engine is driving the wheels and is operating throughout a wide range of power outputs that don't represent optimum conversion efficiency.

    While using this IC generator won't be as efficient as charging the batteries from the grid in day to day use this type of vehicle could be more efficient than a pure BEV. The reason being is that it could be significantly lighter. Replace the Tesla Roadster's 1,000 lb battery pack with a 300 lb battery pack and a 200 lb generator and you'll save 500 lbs of weight. For trips less than ~70 miles you will still be able to run as a pure BEV but will have saved energy by carrying around less weight. So it becomes somewhat of a trade-off that will vary by individual. If you are someone that rarely drives over 70 miles then you will actually save more energy by going this series hybrid route. If you take a lot of longer trips than the large battery pack would provide the greatest energy savings.
  • Thank you 'tpe'.

    You've done what seems to be an excellent summary of why this type of serial hybrid will probably be with us until such time as we have much better battery technology (e.g., less weight, better recharge, cheaper, more capacity) and a more comprehensive recharging infrastructure for extended road travel. This type of vehicle will allow most of us to drive in electric only mode for limited range commutes, but still allow us to have the freedom to take longer trips as needed without having to resort to having multiple cars or renting one.

    While I know that there are a lot of families that already have multiple cars, there are also a lot of people that are single with only one car or where the driving needs are so disparate between couples that sharing is not a comfortable option. Has anyone ever gone to a rental agency and been given a choice of vehicles to rent, where there was nothing available that they would have picked if given a choice? Has anyone ever said to their significant other, 'just pick out what you want since it's really going to be "YOUR" car'? For those that don't fall into these groups, great, for others, I'm sure you'll want what you want and will want it with as little compromise as possible.
  • terry92270terry92270 Posts: 1,247
    "Has anyone ever said to their significant other, 'just pick out what you want since it's really going to be 'YOUR' car'?"

    By any chance would you happen to be single? :P
  • tpetpe Posts: 2,342
    What's nice is that with these new high power density batteries a 300 lb battery pack could provide bursts of power that would allow for extreme performance. The Altairnano batteries have a power density of 4000 Watts per kg. That's around 560 kW in a 300 lb battery pack or 3 times what the Tesla Roadster's motor is rated at. And you probably wouldn't need more than a 70 hp engine to keep the batteries charged.
  • LOL, No, but I am one of those that doesn't share very well, so I want what I want with minimal compromise and our tastes are a bit different.
  • I hope there are options for we who don't want to spend the money or add the complication of a dual system

    I emailed Tesla as to what they anticipate the replacement cost of a battery to be. No reply so far.

    You know what I think the biggest possible killer to EV/HEV vehicles is? Liability. Suppose we go for awhile and people get the idea that there are health risks to being around that much EMF. Think of what happened with cell phones and breast implants. Doesn't even have to be valid. The sharks will circle.
  • tpetpe Posts: 2,342
    I'd guess the replacement cost for the Tesla battery pack is upwards of $40k. If BEVs become more common place this is where the biggest savings will occur because the price of this type of battery should drop significantly due to economies of scale. If ultra-capacitors ever live up to their hype it won't matter how much they cost because they will never wear out.
  • I've heard 40k bandied about. How is that arrived at?
    I don't know what their cost structure is, perhaps they lose money on every roadster made. But to do these small production runs using a purchased Lotus chassis and pretty much customizing the rest, has to be pretty expensive...if you are arriving at it by trying to back out costs from a total. I may ask Tesla again and this time be a "potential customer."

    MSRP on a Viper is $85k and up.
  • tpetpe Posts: 2,342
    The Tesla Roadster has a 50 kWh Li-ion battery pack. The few companies that sell these type of large format batteries quote prices of around $1k per kWh so when I said $40k for the Tesla pack I was being conservative. Tesla is not making much money, if any, on these initial cars, IMO, they are looking towards the future.

    I'd take the Tesla over the Viper in a heartbeat.
  • I've found that the Tesla pack contains a qty of 6800, Li- Ion 18650 cells. I've found these retail on the web for $7.25 ea for 2400mAh and $5.29 ea for 2200mAh. I don't know if tesla adds a lot of value to these in term of what they do and additional hardware they might apply. Also I don't know about the quality of the product I priced.

    Probably pretty safe to say that the pack costs at least $25k+...taking into consideration the quantity purchased.
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,994
    ROCHESTER HILLS, Mich. — Electric-vehicle maker Tesla Motors used the opening of its new technical center here on Friday to announce the launch of Project WhiteStar. Its goal is to develop and produce a five-passenger high-performance sedan, expected to reach the market around 2009.

    http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=119384

    Rocky
  • roland3roland3 Posts: 431
    ... A "Plug In Extended Range", taking half the battery weight and expense off a car like the Tesla and installing a lightweight genset, say 300 CC's (18 cubic inch) preferably Diesel, might be a good idea while we are waiting for that superconductive type breakthrough.
    ... So you are going on a trip in excess of 125 miles, well here is one thing the computers are not doing yet. At the start of this trip you run both batt and genset power, after two hours the genset should have added 40 to 50 percent charge. This should be near 200 mile range.
    ... This would also save quite a bit of time looking for a charging location any time you were stoped on these rare trips. Yes, it has it's limitations. What is that old saying about making all the people happy all of the time or that pursuit there of.
    ... Allright, you left the vehicle in long term parking for three days with the lights on and when you open the door your not quite sure if that's a reflection or the domelight is on, but the genset does crank; however this (with some sophisticated switching to not charge the batts at this time) will only run the car 15 MPH, but it gets you accross the street to a restaurant where you leave the genset run for an hour or more and viola 20 to 25 percent charge, might get you home if you live 30 or less miles away.
  • tpetpe Posts: 2,342
    That doesn't sound significantly different than what GM is planning with the Chevy Volt. The major difference is that the Volt will have a generator capable of actually re-charging the battery while you're driving, not just reducing its rate of depletion. In addition the Volt's generator would only kick in when the battery fell below a certain charge level. So regardless of the length of your trip you would always be using the minimum amount of fuel. GM says that battery technology isn't quite there yet. I think the people at Tesla would disagree. Now I agree that battery affordability isn't there yet, at least not for the mainstream even in this reduced battery pack configuration.
  • I guess it will depend on how the battery price and power play out as to how big the engines will be. 40 electric miles a day translates to 14,600 a year. Folks who could plug in at work could get up to an 80 mile commute on electric. Granted, we don't drive the same amount every day, but that would certainly make the ICE or diesel power mode pretty scantilly used for most folks. I bet some people who filled their tanks might have to worry because they use so little that the same gas might be in the tank long enough to turn bad and clog their system.

    Even the 50 mpg in gas mode would be a quarter to a half less fuel used for most.

    Not saying anything new here. I want to see these cars of various modes on the road and competing. Can't wait.
  • tpetpe Posts: 2,342
    I want to see these cars of various modes on the road and competing. Can't wait.

    I don't think the wait will be that long. Within a couple of years we should also have a lot more high mpg diesels to choose from and maybe even some diesel hybrids. So something for everyone. And when the government suggest higher CAFE the auto-manufacturers can respond, "hey, the vehicles are out there, now make people want them".
  • I keep hoping that GM comes around to acknowledging that the battery technology actually is here now, but using today's technology will require them to increase their planned battery capacity to allow for a longer EV range in order to have an acceptable number of recharge cycles to ensure a reasonable battery lifetime.
    By the time the car is ready for production, I feel confident that the price would also be at a reasonable point, perhaps even to allowing options for increased EV only range to keep price down for short range commuters but allow longer EV commute for others as they wish.

    In summary, I see no reason for GM to express any doubts about the possibility of the vehicle being made production ready and available sooner rather than later.
  • roland3roland3 Posts: 431
    ... I was origanally going to post this in "plug in hybrids" but the Tesla numbers: production date, weight, range, and price are facinating. Of course, who does not think of adding or taking away options, not everybody wants the ride/handling of a Zo/6 Corvette, or the power so most order a more domesticated beast.

    ... Any engineers out there have an idea of what would happen to the four second, zero to sixty, with half the peak load, taken away in batt size? Keep in mind that the car might be two to three hundred pounds lighter even with the little genset. Oh yeah, would have ten to fifteen thousand dollars to put a genset in the vehicle.
  • tpetpe Posts: 2,342
    .. Any engineers out there have an idea of what would happen to the four second, zero to sixty, with half the peak load, taken away in batt size?

    I'm by no means an expert on this but here's a couple things I do know. The Tesla has a 185 kW motor and a battery pack that is around 450 kg. Cut this in half and you have a 225 kg battery pack. Given that standard Li-ion batteries have a power density of around 1 kW per kg I think that the performance wouldn't suffer. There are newer battery technologies from companies like A123 Systems and Altairnano that supposedly have a big advantage when it comes to power density. They claim their batteries produce 3-4 kW per kg. So potentially a relatively small battery pack, say 100 kg, could supply a very powerful electric motor producing incredible performance, albeit with limited electric range. If I were rich I'd love to build a car with a 100 kW motor powering the front wheels and a 150 kW motor powering the rear. I'd install one of these new technology 100 kg battery packs and a 1 Liter diesel generator to keep it charged. Granted the generator would be running almost non-stop, which wouldn't make it much of an EV but it would have performance that probably exceeded that of a Viper while getting at least 30 mpg.
  • roland3roland3 Posts: 431
    ... Thankyou, Tpe, I still think of batteries as weight and cube, have enough keeping a working conversion mode, between my ears, for metric to inches (lol). The Tesla might be a real "tipping point" vehicle. Where else have you seen conversation about taking out power or range in an eletric before ???
  • Some sources are reporting the Tesla sedan will be built in NM.

    Also reporting that the price will be "at least $50k." How many green mercedes drivers are there who will accept the limitations? They say they want to build 10,000 units a year.

    All good I guess.

    http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070220/UPDATE/702200428
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,439
    I would not consider one for my driving car. I would like a plug-in runabout for the short trips to the store. I don't think there is anything practical or useful about a $50k car with the inherent limitations of an electric vehicle.
  • tpetpe Posts: 2,342
    "at least $50k." How many green mercedes drivers are there who will accept the limitations?

    Other questions would be, are there any owners of $50k vehicles that never drive over 250 miles? How many people that can afford a $50k vehicle have more than one car? If there are those that fit into these categories then there are really no relevant limitations. And if this would be your only vehicle and you rarely make the 250+ mile trip there is always the option of renting on those occasions. And any limitations also need to be weighed against the convenience of foregoing the 30+ annual trips the average motorist makes to a filling station. What about the situation where you didn't plan on driving 250 miles but ended up needing to? Well I've been driving over 30 years and that's never come up. What about people that don't have access to an outlet for re-charging? Remember this is still a $50k vehicle. Not exactly aimed at the apartment dweller.

    So, IMO, a 250 range will be a non-factor for enough people that this car will still have a market. No it won't have the mass appeal of Camrys and Accords that sell 400k units but since they only plan on making 10k a year the fact that its appeal will be limited is also a non-factor. But to even sell that many this $50k EV will still have to offer comparable performance, comfort, and amenities to the other $50k vehicles that buyers have to choose from.
  • It was disappointing to hear that it was now to be "at least $50k" rather than the $40k that was bandied about earlier. "at least" implies that we are probably looking at closer to $60k.

    I am just guessing at the mindset of the average buyer in that categary, but I don't think they are much concerned with saving gas or the planet. Any drawback such as a range limitation could well be a deal breaker, whether it comes into play much or not. It's all about convenience, luxury, performance and status. Still, 10k is not all that many units..perhaps there are enough folks with the money and incling to move them. Certainly hollywood has a few elligible buyers. I have little doubt that the Tesla will be tricked out and perform well for its class. Perhaps the unique factor will spur buyers to go with it. The status thing..the I got stuff you don't thing.

    I guess at this point, I will be waiting for the Volt.
  • tpetpe Posts: 2,342
    I guess at this point, I will be waiting for the Volt.

    I agree. I think the Volt is the more logical next step on the way to pure EVs.
  • knightskyeknightskye Posts: 9
    Phoenix Motorcars is releasing, what, 5,000 of their SUTs next year? Those will be $45,000 - a lot less than the Roadster, and even lower than the White Star that hasn't been built yet. They said they're making an SUV, too. I wonder if the SUV will be under $40,000.

    For some reason, I see Phoenix doing a lot better in the beginning than Tesla. Whether it be their lower prices, or their awesome batteries that fully recharge in 10 minutes and have 9,000 life cycles. The car goes 130 miles, but they said something about an expansion pack that would allow the cars to go for about 250 miles.

    You guys are right, though. The cars, for a while, at least, won't be too affordable to the mass market. There will be some people pushed over the edge by the gasoline prices. The prices will come down once they mass-produce them, though. And then the Volt will come out. I wish they gave us a price estimate for the Volt, though.

    Tesla added weight to their car for safety and durability reasons, so now they just say, "Over 200 miles."
  • fordenvyfordenvy Posts: 72
    gas stations should employ recharging stations that use a 220 maybe instead of a 110, that way you can recharge in 1/2 hour instead of 6 hours, then the electric car can really become.
  • tpetpe Posts: 2,342
    If the Tesla's 50 kWh battery pack was almost fully discharged it would take around 7 hours to recharge from a 220V 30 amp outlet. There are special charging stations that can deliver power a lot faster. The Altairnano 35 kWh battery pack can be re-charged in 10 minutes at one of these high capacity charging stations. However I don't believe the batteries in the Tesla can accept a charge this fast even if it was available.

    So basically your roadtrips will be limited to ~200 miles. Probably not a big deal. If you consider this car to be an electric Dodge Viper then ask yourself, how many 200+ mile roadtrips do people make in Vipers? Probably not many. These types of cars are toys and not meant to be practical and shouldn't be judged from that perspective. But even as a toy the Tesla will be a valuable proof of concept testbed.
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