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Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

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Comments

  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    I certainly like the looks of the Azera better than the Taurus, but after pricing some cars, the local Hyundai dealers weren't moving enough on their price. The Ford dealer gave me the $22k OTD quote with no negotiations. I asked for a base, no options Taurus for $20k OTD. He had no base model Taurus SELs, but seeing as he offered a car with $2,300 more in options for $2,000 more, the deal just couldn't be passed up. The best part of it all is that the dealer was low-pressure. The salesman had been VERY patient with me (I've been talking to him for several months while my folks decided). The finance manager offered the extended warranty, and when my folks declined, that was it. No more asking about it.

    There was no trade-in to make the deal more complicated.
  • jg585jg585 Posts: 9
    I have been considering a Chrysler 300. Seats in my Lucerne too uncomfortable. Will be off warrantee soon and want to trade while it still has some value. Any idiosyncrasies about the Charger that relate to the 300?
  • batistabatista Posts: 159
    My 06 Charger has been way better than my previous car an 01 Impala so far.
    The problems I have had is a small transmission leak that is easily fixed, back window condensation during clear cold winter nights and a bit of noise during turning manuevers that most likely means the tie rods need to be replaced.
    I think you will be happy with it coming from a GM vehicle. I do recommend the Hemi if you do a lot of highway driving. The Chrysler 3.5L is much better than the GM 3.8L but not as refined as Toyotas or even GM's 3.6L.
  • alexstorealexstore Posts: 264
    Recently read in a car magazine a comparison of V8 G8 and 09 Maxima. Both cars are my favorites, but in that magazine they chose G8.
    http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/sedans/112_0808_nissan_maxima_vs_pontiac_g8/- index.html
    which car would you chose?
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    This is a really tough choice...

    On one hand I really like the way the G8 GT drives and its styling looks pretty sharp for a sports sedan but the interior is a turn off. The gauges, dashes, center console and center stack aren't too shabby but the rest of the detail like headliner and door panels are pretty poorly made. Not having full power seats for both the driver and passenger is a negative in my book as well.

    On the other hand I am sure the Maxima has a much better interior in terms of quality but given its FWD setup I am sure it wouldn't handle as well as the G8 even without a test drive. Not a big fan of the exterior styling either...

    The answer to the question is: Neither.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Why not add this one to your search? Looks like it'll give you a good balance of performance, luxury and value. And let me tell you...seeing it up close in person, the Genesis is STUNNING!!!

    09 Genesis Review
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    The Genesis is one grill short of luxurious-looking, to me.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    Between the three I'll get the Genesis...

    No Doubt About It!
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    I guess it's in the eye of the beholder, but have you seen it up close and in person? Much more luxurious than any car in the Mainstream Large Sedan segment.

    I guess you're basing your opinion on the fact that it's a Hyundai, right?
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    I have to be honest and yes, this may be Hyundai biased, but....if I had known the Genesis was in the works when I got my Azera (as much as I love my Azera), I would have held off and made my Sonata work for a couple more years. I didn't get to test drive it, but...driving up to it at the dealership gave me that feeling of anticipation. By the way...the Genesis in black is so much better looking than the burgundy or silver one. Anyway, I park my car and walk over to the Genesis to take a peek inside...it was calling to me. The interior is so inviting, it makes you want to climb in. However, by it being the only one the dealership had....they weren't about to let it go on the type of test drive I wanted. I'll be back

    I thought Hyundai did a good job when it came to the Azera in terms of creating a car with appeal and overall quality. The Genesis literally blows the Azera away. I'm sorry...seeing the Genesis online or from a distance on a rotating stand does it no justice. I have to agree with the writer of that write-up I posted the link for...by far, Hyundai has hit a home-run with the Genesis.

    Personally, I feel the Genesis combines the best attributes of the G8 and the Maxima. Would the Genesis be as athletic as the G8...not quite, but close. However, the Genesis would provide a more refined interior than the new Maxima and that's saying a lot considering the new Max is quite Infiniti-ish on the inside. I think if one were on the fence between a G8 or a Maxima...the Genesis would be the perfect combination of the two. Just my two cents.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    I guess you're basing your opinion on the fact that it's a Hyundai, right?

    Whoa, I don't think I deserve to be asked that question, and I won't even honor it with a response.

    image
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Either it is or isn't the basis of your opinion. How do you figure that the Genesis is a grill short of luxurious-looking??? It shares the look of a Lexus or Infiniti quite well and both of those are considered luxurious looking vehicles. The only thinking left is that since it's not of a "premium" brand that either the Germans or Japanese make...then it simply can't be a luxury-looking vehicle. Unless of course, you have another line of thinking that makes sense. I'm simply asking you to expound upon your statement, that's all.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    To me, the vertical divider between the slats, the too-wide holes between the slats, and the lack of any badging, makes the whole thing look pretty basic and lacking in strength, with plastic-looking slats. The Azera looks better to me simply because they gave it a badge, proudly displaying its identity. Out of curiousity, what are some other cars that have NO badging forward of the cabin? Certainly no luxury marque, or even mainstream large sedans displayed in this forum. In my mind, if Hyundai is proud of this product (as they should be), they should at least put their name on the face.

    image

    The M45 has more substantial chrome brightwork with a prominent badge:

    image

    Honestly, the option they DIDN'T choose would make a lot of difference in Hyundai's favor, even though it looks MUCH like an LS460.

    image

    Here's the car we get.

    image

    Motor Trend had this to say about the grill options:

    The options are these: the v-shaped horizontal-bar design, which looks very much like a South Korean-market's grille, or the more Lexus-like grille with the prominent Hyundai badge. Or neither. I vote for neither. The big-badged grille looks too anonymous; the other grille stands out for all the wrong reasons.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    To each his own. Hyundai played it safe with the selection of the grille. They left the "H" off the front and think that was the right move to make.

    Have you seen the 3 different grille options that were floating around? The one that actually made it to the car is the best of the 3. It has a very Benz-like look with enough difference to not be a Benz grille.

    However, while a grille can accent a vehicle, it does not a luxury car make. Regardless of which grille is on the car...it is in fact a luxury sedan. However, for everything the Genesis has to offer and as strong a statment it has made for it's position, there will always be detractors looking for even the slightest thing to fault the car or company for. I guess that's what happens when a car makes as big a splash as the Genesis has made thus far.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    You're just brainwashed to think that the grille must have the mark of the manufacturer. Do you see it on a Benz, do you see it on a BMW, do you see it on a Jag? No...all have plain grilles with their manufacturer's mark above the grille on the hood. Just because you do see it on a Lexus or Infiniti...does that make it the status quo? One side does, the other doesn't...which is right/wrong?

    Funny you post the Azera grille. Have you seen the same Azera grille without the "H"...looks so much better. I will actually be removing my factory grille and going with a custom one without a manufacturer's mark as well.

    By the way...have you actually SEEN the Genesis in person???

    Is this the one you would rather see???
    image

    Stacked up to the others...you mean to tell me that THIS doesn't have a luxury look???
    image
    any less than this...
    image
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    Have to agree with thegraduate here, if Hyundai is proud of this car (as they should be) then they should put a badge at the front end.

    Also, I am too not a fan of the waterfall grille design.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    You're just brainwashed to think that the grille must have the mark of the manufacturer. Do you see it on a Benz, do you see it on a BMW, do you see it on a Jag? No...all have plain grilles with their manufacturer's mark above the grille on the hood.

    The problem is that the US Genesis doesn't even have a badge above the grille on the hood! As matter of fact, if the 2nd half of the car is covered off no one would know this is a Hyundai!!

    The answer to your question is YES, well, at least for the Merc and Jag...

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  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    I'd reply to allmet's post but the pics are so big I can't find the reply button.

    Simply stated, the lack of the badging, on that style of grille, leaves me with a "cheap" feeling. You don't have to agree with it; it just lacks an upscale look to me. A nice H emblem would do wonders for the otherwise anonymous design.
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    The grille on the Genesis sedan looks striking in real life. I'd say, however, the winged emblem adds to the character - I believe an owner has already added the winged emblem to his new Genesis ;)

    I will try to grab some real-life photo of the Genesis sedan.

    Here is a media photo in the mean time.

    image
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    I hated the H emblem Hyundai USA unveiled at the Detroit auto show. Recall Hyundai unveiled two versions of the Genesis at the show to gauge which one would work better.

    In my opinion, the H made the Genesis grille look like a oversized Sonata. I am glad Hyundai USA went with the right grille choice ;)
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Louiswei...come on man, do you really believe that Hyundai is less proud of the BEST car they have produced to date simply because the decided not to put their "H" on the grille??? If that's the case, then Mercedes is less proud of the S & E-Class cars compared to the C-Class one's right? I mean...the C-Class has a huge circled 3 point star (the size of a personal pan pizza) in the middle of the grille while the E & S-Class cars simply have a small, ornate hood mounted emblem (maybe the size of a half-dollar coin).

    So...the people that debadge their cars, are they less proud of them? Be careful with that answer because I've seen plenty of MB's rolling around my area with all the emblems removed. I've seen plenty of luxury vehicles with custome aftermarket grilles (with no emblem). Most of the time, when you get a good look at a car it's usually from behind because you're stuck in traffic. That being said, Hyundai positioned their "H" on the trunk.

    Is the waterfall grille the best grille Hyundai could have come up with...probably not. Personally, I think a nice chrome mesh grille would have been slick (made from the same mesh that Jaguar uses for theirs). However, of the 3 grilles that were out there for the Genesis...it truly is the best looking option.

    Thank you for providing me with a good laugh this morning. I mean to think...Hyundai not being proud of the, hands down, best car they have ever produced (and they know it). They're so NOT proud of it, they went and shopped the best sound system they could find for it (Lexicon). They're so NOT proud of it, they went and found two top notch transmissions (Aisin & ZF) to put in them. Come on man, I know you really don't believe that statement you made.

    I can accept the fact that you simply just don't care for the grille. In which case, leave it at that, but don't put it on the maker, claiming they're not proud of their own product so they left their mark off the front of it, they have the "H" on the wheels and the steering wheel as well. How many places does the emblem really have to go??? The sad thing is...the car makers get us as consumers every day and we don't even know it. WE...are rolling advertisement for the makers and we don't even get paid for it. As a matter of fact, we PAY for the priviledge of advertising for them (funny...they pay huge amounts for their products to be seen in movies and tv shows). We, the consumers, are getting pimped by the auto makers every single day. We go to them only to purchase a liability (it certainly is no investment) that takes money out of your pocket every day that you own it, gets you back a percentage of it if you decide to trade or sell it and yet...the auto maker makes more money because of it.

    Sorry...I'm done ranting now. :blush:
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    In my opinion, the H made the Genesis grille look like a oversized Sonata.

    What's wrong for the Genesis being an oversized Sonata? If Hyundai is proud of its name and products then there is nothing wrong having the family resemblance...

    S-class looks like an oversized C-class
    LS looks like an oversized IS
    A8 looks like an oversized A4
    Camry looks like an oversized Corolla

    I don't see anything wrong with that. As matter of fact, if Hyundai is trying to build "heritage" here then family resemblance is an important way to get it there.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    Ah no don't get me wrong, Hyundai is definitely proud of the Genesis, they are just not proud of putting the Hyundai 'H' badge on it.

    Say whatever you want but I am sticking with my opinion.

    Don't want to bring up the "seperate luxury brand/dealer network" debate again but that's a nice to solve this problem...
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Proud, but not proud enough, huh? That really doesn't make a lot of sense.

    I can understand if the Genesis were quirky in design like their past vehicles used to be. I can understand if Hyundai tried to bring a luxury car to market made of bottom end materials.

    Like I said, I can respect your opinion if it were simply the fact that you just didn't like it. Heck, we can't like everything out there. If Hyundai were not totally proud of their Genesis, they wouldn't be putting themselves behind it unlike the way they did the Azera.

    It's hard to say that Hyundai wasn't capable of producing a car of the Genesis' stature, go back and look at their concept car, the HCD7. Even though it was a concept car, it was actually a car that COULD have been put into production and been a hit.

    As far as the seperate dealer network goes, one can't deny what the Genesis brings to the table. As much as you want to fight it, it must be conceded...a luxury car from a non-luxury brand. Like I said a few months ago, Hyundai is breaking the mold of what an auto-maker is supposed to be.
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    I am talking about the front section only. The other cars you listed don't look alike upfront, IIRC. The Genesis looks much better from a styling POV IMO with the current grille, and it gives its own distinct look in the family, and not just an "oversized" Sonata. Observe:

    Genesis grille that never made it:

    image

    2009 Sonata grille:

    image

    2009 Genesis current grille:

    image
  • drwilscdrwilsc Posts: 140
    Is it me? or would it have made more sense to compare the G8 GT with the G35 Journey? Both RWD (rather than the FWD Maxima). Journey starts at just 32,700, in the ballpark of the G8. Motor Trend tested an automatic 2007 G35 S and recorded a 0-60 time of 5.3 seconds, faster than the G8 GT in this comparo. Seems a more reasonable comparison than the G8 vs Maxima and I suspect would have had a different outcome.
  • tjc78tjc78 South JerseyPosts: 9,161
    Not a fair comparo there either.... the G35 is much smaller than the G8. IMO the only current car that matches up with the G8 is the Charger/300C. Maybe the Genesis, but honestly that car is totally different. The Genesis is a big lux car that just happens to be fast, the G8 is a performance car that just happens to be big.

    2017 Buick Enclave / 2019 Volvo S60 T6 Inscription

  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Since the Genesis isn't listed above, I just want to say in short...it definitely is in a class of it's own. If you get the 3.8...it sits right on the edge of not being mainstream because fully loaded w/tech package will run you $40K. You can get a base model 3.8 for $33K, premium package for $35K and the premium plus for $36K (which is VERY nicely loaded by the way).

    I would urge any interested in the 300C, M35, Maxima, G8, E-Class or even a GS...go drive a Genesis. Trust me, getting in it, pushing the start button, putting it into gear and hitting the gas will quickly make you forget all about whether or not you like the waterfall grille. The seats...think of your favorite easy chair and how you sink in and feel comfortable. Well...the seats in the Genesis are that comfortable, without the sinking in part. They support you as well as pamper you with the thick, supple leather they used. The dash...very, very high quality feel to it....comparable to the likes of Lexus, Infinity & Benz. Only difference, they don't use real wood trim, but the faux wood looks nice. I tested a midnight blue with tan interior and the dash had a charcoal leather, but the wood trim was an ebony faux wood...SWEET!!! I like the fact they went with the black carpet with the tan seats.

    Let me put it like this...we can go back and forth about which car is faster 0-60, which can pull higher G's on a skidpad, which can pull through a slalom the fastest, but...for every day driving that most of us do, you can't deny the quality of ride this car gives you. If you look at it from a perspective of how you actually drive (and now how a magazine would run a car through it's paces)...you would fall in love with the Genesis.

    Okay, so it doesn't have power pedals, but with the power adjustable steering wheel/column (up, down & telescope) and all the adjustments the seat offers...you really don't need them. The biggest omission I can see is the lack of power folding mirrors...that's it.
  • drwilscdrwilsc Posts: 140
    The Genesis looks like a very nice car. The question is, is a non-luxury brand like Hyundai gojng to be able to convince people to buy it over the likes of BMW 3-series, Lexus ES or IS, Infiniti M35/M45 or G35, Benz C 350, Cadillac CTS, etc when a loaded V6 costs 36 grand and the V8 version starts at $37,250? The Genesis probably would have better executed if were priced more like the G8 GT in the lower 30's.

    People will gladly plop down 40 grand for those other makes, but a Hyundai? Tough sell, regardless of how good the car actually is.
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    The Genesis probably would have better executed if were priced more like in the lower 30's.

    It really wouldn't matter too much, I don't think. If a prospective shopper is passing on the car, it would not make that much of a difference if a loaded Genesis was in the lows 30s, say.

    And too bad for them, since the Genesis is one well-crafted product. I, for one, think the US Genesis V6 and V8, ranged from 33K-42K MSRP (w/ delivery and shipping) are very very competitive. There have not been many faults I've came across with the car so far, neither have other perspective shoppers, owners, and professionals in the industry. Everything is pointing in the right direction for the Genesis, including previous weak spots from the company that makes this car - for example, the predicted residual value is something like 66% after two years and 50% after 3 - amazing figures; or the fact its suspension is actually one of the strengths, this coming from a company known for making softer rides. Bottom line, this is just a damn good car, with or without the price factor; of course, the price just makes the deal that much sweeter.

    I am actually in the process of doing my research and drives for my next car, all of the luxury-branded cars similarly priced in the range of the Genesis are out, either too small (3er/G35) or their drivetrain (ES, MKS), G8 and GS are also out. It's really coming down to a battle of the luxury mid-to-large sedans (i.e. 5er, M, Genesis, E-Class). A test drive or two on the Genesis will certainly help with the process.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Honestly...all it will take is someone taking a ride in it. From the moment you sit down in the driver's seat to the instant you fire up the engine and the dash comes to life. When you start comparing what you get for the money and what you would have to pay the other makers for a car with equal options and amenites, coupled with the fact you can burn regular gas...it starts becoming more and more attractive than it already is.

    I'm telling you...internet pics do nothing for the car. Seeing it in person makes you want to climb inside. The layout of the car makes you want to see what it's all about. Driving it...well, you quickly forget that it's a Hyundai, that much I can guarantee. If you didn't have the circled "H" staring you in the face (steering wheel center), it would be very easy to forget that fact!!!

    In our current financial state, one isn't simply going to just plop down $40K. They are going to want a whole lot for that money and I hate to say it, but there isn't another large sedan that can give you what the Genesis gives you for the price. There might be a couple that come within a few thousand $$$, but you would have to look at the trade-offs.

    I also hate to point out...the 3-Series, ES, IS, G-35, C-Class or CTS don't even compare to the Genesis. First of all, none have the interior space to match the Genesis. Like I said before, the Genesis would compare better to the M35/45, 300C, G8, GS, 5-Series & E-Class...trust me. Until you've gone to actually sit in it and drive it, you won't understand.
  • tonycdtonycd Posts: 223
    Which is pretty much what the first Avalon was, no?
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    I finally got to see a new Maxima on the street. Very sharp car in person...the one I saw was black with the charcoal interior. The new Max is supposed to be bigger on the inside than the previous model and if it is, Nissan is making very good use of interior space because on the outside it looks smaller. To be honest, it doesn't look any bigger than a G35. The lines are very fluid and the car looks like it's in motion even when sitting still. One thing I love is how Nissan did the tail lights (you would have to see them in action to understand). It may be a Maxima, but it lends itself to an Infinity vibe. Good job Nissan!

    Now...there is always talk about how one automaker copies something from another automaker and it just so happened that the Max was at a stop light next to a Honda Civic coupe...the pics below give an idea of how similar they are from the back, but of course, the Max has more rounded rear quarter panels. If you were to see them both from directly behind, they would be hard to tell apart from a distance.

    image

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  • hjc1hjc1 Posts: 183
    Sorry allmet I don't see the similarity except they both have 2 red tail lights :=)
    I think the Honda looks better.............
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    The pictures don't show it that well, but in person...you can easily see how similar the overall design and shapes are similar between the two. Of course, everyone will have their opinion whether what looks good or not. The Max actually looks very, very good. The pictures do it no justice.
  • hjc1hjc1 Posts: 183
    I guess that's why we have so many makes and models.
    Sure would be simpler if everyone thought the same.......
    BUT BORING :=)
  • tonycdtonycd Posts: 223
    Unless Maxima has it, I believe the Avalon is alone in this class in offering front seats that can be cooled as well as heated.

    I know every car in this class does offer leather seats. Most are not perforated. I've never owned anything but cloth upholstery. So, my question: Does your back get sweaty in the summertime on these seats?
  • rhduke00rhduke00 Posts: 129
    Tony,

    My back does not get sweaty in my 2007 Hyundai Azera even when the outside temperature is near or over 100 F and I have black leather seats.

    BTW you can get both heated and cooled front seats for the Buick Lucerne on all but the CX base model.
  • garym1jgarym1j Posts: 46
    Doesn't that option add about $2000 to the price of the Avalon? Seems a bit extravegant for an air conditioned butt. Only in America.
  • tjc78tjc78 South JerseyPosts: 9,161
    Doesn't that option add about $2000

    Well.... yes and no. The cooled seats are available only on the Limited. So if comparing to the XL it would add about $8000. Comparing to a loaded XLS about $1500. However, you gain keyless start, sunshade, signal mirrors and some other things as well.

    2017 Buick Enclave / 2019 Volvo S60 T6 Inscription

  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    The Buick Lucerne offers them A/C seats, last I checked.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    How right you are Hjc1, how right you are!
  • marsha7marsha7 Posts: 3,703
    Obviously you do not comprehend the value I place on my butt being cooled and heated as climate may require...:):):):):):):):):)
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    :) Well now you know you have 2 choices in this segment - the Buick and the Toyota! :D
  • tonycdtonycd Posts: 223
    I want to know whether I NEED those two big, expensive choices.

    Do the rest of you find the lack of perforations and/or seat coolers a problem? Do you miss them, or wish you had them?
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    I've been driving my Azera for 2 years and I live in the DC Metro area (lots of humid heat during the summer months here). I don't really have a problem with sweating or anything at all.

    However, after test driving the Genesis (which has the perforated leather), they felt much more comfortable. I didn't use the cooling feature (which is available) and I felt like I was riding on cloth seats. So even if you don't go for the cooled seat option, the perforated leather makes a difference in my opinion.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    I'd agree - the perf. leather in my folks' new Taurus is cooler to the back than my friend's '01 Acura CL without it; both have light colored leather, and light exteriors.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    Is anyone even bothering with this car anymore?

    image
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