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Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison



  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    That is totally off-topic, allmet.
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    The replacement is coming, although not sure if it's destined for the North American market or not. The current one rides on the old Hyundai XG platform, while more than adequate, it could certainly benefit from using the Azera platform, or something similar. Not much details are known at this point.

    I would hope the next Amanti and other upcoming Kias to continue adapt its new family design lanuage, courtesy of Peter Schreyer, head designer - from the ex-cee'd 'vert concept, or the upcoming KOUP, to the forthcoming production Forte - Spectra replacement - argubly one of the best looking cars in the segment.
  • snaglepussnaglepus Posts: 160
    "The current one rides on the old Hyundai XG platform, while more than adequate,
    it could certainly benefit from using the Azera platform, or something similar."


    I'm not sure about that. :confuse:
    The front suspension of the late Amanti is identical to the Azera suspension and the older
    Amanti and the XG350 are the same and those parts are not interchangeable
    with the late Amanti and Azeras beginning with the 2006 MY.

  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557 knowledgable as you are usually, I'm surprised to see that you don't know that the newer Amanti's share a whole lot with the Azera now. The earlier ones shared the XG platform and one of the complaints was that the engine was too weak for that car. My wife's uncle sells Kias and he was driving a new model Amanti. I have to admit, you can see the differences from the older ones if you just stop and look at it. It made me go back and take a look at the specs on the car, lo and now shares the platform and underpinnings of the Azera, along with the 3.8 V-6.

    Although the new 2007 Kia Amanti is roughly the same size as before, it now shares all major underpinnings with Hyundai's well-regarded Azera, and as a result, the full-size Kia sedan weighs about 200 pounds less than before.

    2007 Kia Amanti Road Test

    I think the Amanti will be around as long as the Azera is, especially with the changes that have actually made it a much better car. As I was saying earlier, the newer ones look similar to the older ones, but if you really look...the differences are visible and it's just enough change to make the Amanti a much more pleasing car to look at.
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    I must have been feeding wrong information then. :) Thanks guys!!

    Interesting to note, however, the wheelbase of the Amanti, prior to the the facelift (up to 2006 model year) is the same as after (2007MY and on).
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    I think the new platform is the same size, they just built it differently to be lighter. If you read that Road Test, they said the newer platform that the Amanti and Azera sit on is some 200 lbs lighter than the previous XG platform. Same size, less weight...that's a good thing.
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    The Azera's wheelbase is 1.1 in. longer than the XG.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Okay...then they did slightly lengthen and lighten it then. However, it could still be a revised version of the XG platform. I would find it hard that Hyundai would have come up with an altogether brand new platform for the Azera when all they had to do was tweak the one the XG was riding on. Then again, I could be wrong.

    However, the point is now...the Amanti and Azera share platforms.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    Good GRIEF! Why didn't they change the exterior design if they went to all the trouble of changing the guts? The exterior design (to me) is the absolute worst on the sedan market. Yes, the sedan market, not just large mainstream sedans.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Well...they made some subtle changes, but I guess they wanted to keep a car that was unique to the Kia nameplate. It borrows design keys, but is definitely the Amanti. It's not going to appeal to everyone, which is why it hasn't been talked up much in this forum. However, there are some that believe it to be the true sleeper that folks won't see coming...a dark horse to speak.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    Unless sales have spiked since the last time I checked, that horse is so dark it can't be seen in the shadows of the actual competition!
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    That may be true, I think between the Amanti and the Azera...the Azera is the clear winner here. However, I have to admit...I do see quite a few Amantis on the road here in the DC area. I see them more frequently than I see Azeras and that's no bull.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    Top 10 Losers: Non-Luxury Sedans, Wagons and Hatchbacks (Current Models)

    What I found appears to be the amount of "lot time" a car has, although the site wasn't clear. This is for the month of May, and looks bad for the Ford twins as well as the Kia.

    2008 Mercury Grand Marquis: 223 days
    2008 Ford Taurus: 120 days
    2008 Mercury Sable: 119 days
    2008 Kia Amanti: 117 days
    2008 Dodge Avenger: 96 days
    2008 Buick Lucerne: 87 days
    2008 Mazda6 hatchback 86 days
    2008 Chrysler Sebring: 77 days

    2008 Chrysler 300: 73 days
    2008 Buick LaCrosse: 69 days

    The top 10 winners for May:

    Top 10 Movers: Non-Luxury Sedans, Wagons and Hatchbacks

    2008 Toyota Prius: 11 days
    2009 Toyota Camry Hybrid: 17 days
    2008 Mazda5: 23 days

    2008 Pontiac G8: 23 days
    2008 Chevy Malibu: 24 days
    2008 Chevy Impala: 29 days
    2009 Toyota Camry: 31 days
    2008 VW Jetta: 33 days
    2009 Hyundai Sonata: 36 days

    2008 Toyota Avalon: 37 days
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    I understand that, but if you go and read the 2007 Road Test on the Inside Line...the reviewer said the Amanti isn't for everyone, but for those that aren't looking for driving dynamics, but want touches of luxury for less than $27K...the Amanti will give them just that. He doesn't say that it'll fly off the lots and I can only tell you what I observe in my daily driving. Every area won't see the same thing. Heck, here I can run across Azeras now on a daily basis. A trip to Atlanta, I saw two (one on the way there and one on the way back), but didn't encounter any IN Atl. Same for Dallas too.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    The Amanti is another Buick it sounds like... I'm not finding fault with how the car drives or behaves from behind the wheel (i've never driven one, how could I? ;))

    I just NEVER see Kia Amanits. Azeras? Yes. I can honestly say that I see many more of the new Taurus Sedan than I see Amantis. That's saying something, considering the Taurus isn't selling well.

    Request: Can anyone link me to some sales numbers of these cars? Not specific; it can be by month, YTD, etc... I really don't care. I'd just like to compare.

  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    I think you are right...the true Korean Buick. Like you, I've never driven the Amanti either. However, after seeing the one my wife's uncle was driving...I was curious to find out how it does drive compared to the Azera.
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    Request: Can anyone link me to some sales numbers of these cars? Not specific; it can be by month, YTD, etc... I really don't care. I'd just like to compare.

    Break out the bubbly, Kia sold 1,117 Amantis in June, more than triple the amount compared to the same period last year :) Still down YTD, however:

    Azera here:

    Probably one of the few large cars not off by 20-30% or more this year to date compared to last


    Sharp decrease in June but in the same condiition as with all other large cars.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    Considering the 2008 Taurus wasn't really fully moving at this time last year (or was it?) I wouldn't write the Taurus off as a sales victory/loss just yet, as much as I like the car.

    Thanks for working on finding me the links though, joe. I really appreciate it!
  • jontyreesjontyrees Posts: 160
    I'm starting to see a few Tauruses around Austin - a couple in my neighborhood, one down at the golf club. Everyone that rides in mine is impressed - it's obviously a great car for taking a few coworkers to lunch.
  • cyberpunkcyberpunk Posts: 39
    I have to completely disagree. I don't see anybody confusing the '09 Maxima with the Civic, from behind.

    And I have seen them both in person - I own both the '09 Maxima and an '07 Civic.

    The Maxima is bigger. The sheet metal is much more aggressively flaired. The shape of the tailights is completely different. The Maxima has dual exhausts out the back. The shape of the trunks is different. The only thing both backends have in common is the line the trunk opening makes as it heads down towards the bumper...a line that is in almost universal use, I might add.

    Finally, the Maxima is simply much better looking, when comparing the back of the two cars. :)
  • hjc1hjc1 Posts: 183
    That's what I like about this country.... Everyone has an opinion good or bad.
    Maybe If only one person was left - all our countries problems would be solved
    We wouldn't have too worry about the Dems not wanting to drill for oil or the Repub. wanting to. ETC ETC ETC
  • cdmuilecdmuile Posts: 152
    Yeah, but how could all the people who don't believe what I believe 'be so terribly' wrong?
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    I wouldn't expect someone that owns an '09 Max to agree with me...heaven forbid one would admit that the back end resembles a smaller Civic!!! OMG!!!!

    Dude, take a chill pill for real. I know the differences between the two and can also admit that the Max looks much better as well. I wasn't saying that it didn't. I simply said that looking at the back of both cars you see similar lines (which by the way...are not universal).

    Besides, I'm entitled to my opinion. ;)
  • cyberpunkcyberpunk Posts: 39
    Dude - you need to relax. I didn't come down on you - I just said I disagree with you. If you read my post, you'll also notice that I said I own a Civic, so I'm not sure why you'd think I'd have an issue with the Maxima resembling the "smaller Civic." I just said I disagree that it does, and I posted why I disagree.

    And I never said you're not entitled to your opinion, although it sounds like you need to work on your self-esteem if you come so unglued by people disagreeing with you.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    I am relaxed. ;)

    May I ask...which Civic do you own? I know it's an '07, but which model and trim?

    There is nothing wrong with my self-esteem...I actually do think very highly of myself. :blush:
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    I actually do think very highly of myself

    Houston, we have a problem...

  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Come on Louis...a problem? :surprise:
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    move on, please
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    move on, please

    Pat, if you can't sense the humor in the last couple posts then that's pretty sad...

    That's all I have to say.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Thank you Louis, I'm glad we were on the same page this time. :D
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    Move on please. :D :D :D :D :D

    Is that better? :shades:
  • rpfingstenrpfingsten Posts: 154
    Ok boys, after hearing all the hoopla about the Genisis, I finally made my way over to the dealership last Sunday and looked one over. I will admit that the car is "somewhat" attractive. Nice lines. It should be noted that I did not drive the car ( dealerships locked up on Sunday ) so it was pretty much just a look/see. Peering thru the window, I can't say that I was overly impressed with the interior. To be honest I prefer the interior of my Avy to the Genesis. Also, the interior of the Genesis appeared to be alittle smaller than the Avalon. For most people, the difference in size is probably not a big deal, but I'm bumping 270 lbs so interior comfort is important to me. The engine in the Genesis cranks out a few more hp than the avy, but here again, the ponies generated by the avy power plant is more than sufficent for me. I did like the warranty on the Genesis, If memory serves me, it's a 5 yr, 75k bumper to bumper...much better than the Toyota 3 / 36K. The sticker on the Genesis was an even 40K. In my opinion too much for that car. For less $ I could buy a new Es 350 or even a new Avalon XLS or Limited. Another thing that concerns me, first year models.. never have been a big fan of "first year" production. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure the Genesis is a good car, but for 40 grand, seems to me to be alittle more hype than the car is worth. jmo

  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    You know...looking in and sitting in give you two different impressions. I thought the interior of the Genesis seemed to be no bigger than that of my Azera...until I sat in it. It is bigger than it appears to be once you are sitting inside.

    You COULD pay less and get an ES350, but you're getting a lot less car in doing so, dropping down to a mid-sized sedan as opposed to the large sedan that the Genesis is. As discussed in the Genesis Forum, the Genesis is more comparable to the GS in terms of what you get for the money. Best statment so far, LS size, GS handling & comfort...IS price.

    Oh yeah, the warranty is 10 yr/100K mi. powertrain, 5 yr/60K mi. new vehicle, 7 yr/Unlimited mi. anti-perforation, 5 yr/Unlimited mi. 24-hour roadside assist, 12mo/12K mi. replacment parts & accessory, 8 yr/80K mil emission & performance. Where did you see 5yr/75K mi??? :confuse:
  • tjc78tjc78 South JerseyPosts: 9,185
    Also, the interior of the Genesis appeared to be alittle smaller than the Avalon

    I own an '06 AV XLS and I touched on this on the Genesis forum. I don't care what the #s say the Avalon is larger inside. I can fully extend my leg in my Av and the seat isn't all the way back (I'm 6'). In the Genesis my leg was slightly bent and the seat was all the way back. The back seat also had a touch less room than the Av behind the drivers seat (set up for me). It definately wouldn't be a deal breaker but the Genesis is smaller inside. As for the car itself it is a nice ride. The handling is great (much more controlled than the Av) and the interior materials are as nice or better than the Avalon. The car is quiet and there is plenty of power. However, Hyundai's 3.8 is not as refined as the Toyota 2GR it simply doesn't have the willingness the rev that the Yota has. My Avalon also felt quicker but benefit of the doubt the Genesis I drove was not broken in yet.

    2017 Buick Enclave / 2019 Volvo S60 T6 Inscription

  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    I don't care what the #s say the Avalon is larger inside.

    Hey Tjc78...numbers don't lie! ;)

    Seriously...I don't know how you had everything set up, but I'm 6'2", 215 lbs., and found there to be PLENTY of room in both the front and rear seats for someone of my size.

    I set the driver's seat up for me to drive and I got out and got behind the driver's seat in the back...the seat back was 2" away from my knees. It seems you're being unfair in comparing the say in your Avy...the seat isn't all the way back and you have room, but in the Genesis the seat is all the way back and you don't. Why don't you try setting the driver's seat up for how you would be sitting if you were driving, and then get behind it.
  • tjc78tjc78 South JerseyPosts: 9,185
    I think i am comparing them fairly.... first of all the Genesis is plenty roomy for me. Second I am just noting that there is more available leg room in the front of the Avalon. I am not imagining things, the seat was all the way back and adjusted for me (down it the back, slightly raised in the front) the exact way I sit in my Avalon, and my leg was slightly bent. In my Avalon my leg is fully extended and the seat still can go back a little. As for the rear seat room I was comparing them with my seat set for me in either car. The Avalon was still a touch roomier. Like I said its not a deal breaker either way, just an observation. I still also contend that the interior #s should only be used as a guide. You must try out the car for your body type. Heck my GF has an Elantra and I can't believe that at 6' 275 I am comfortable in it (front only of course). However, we still take the Avalon most of the time ;)

    2017 Buick Enclave / 2019 Volvo S60 T6 Inscription

  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Okay, I misunderstood, I was thinking you were talking room behind the driver's seat. If I'm not mistaken, the numbers for the front seat put the Avy at an advantage, but just slightly in terms of leg room. This just goes to show that everyone not only drives differently, but sits differently too. I'm 6'2" and like you...I lower the rear part of the seat, raise the front slightly, recline the back a bit and I like my legs to have a slight bend in for me...that was the perfect driving position

    One question, with the front of the seat raised, how can you possibly expect to have straight legs to the pedals since they are lower than the seat to begin with???
  • tjc78tjc78 South JerseyPosts: 9,185
    how can you possibly expect to have straight legs

    Maybe I don't raise the front seat all that much. I know on some cars I raise it all the way, I never paid attention to how far up it is on my car... all I know is the Avalon fits me very well.

    2017 Buick Enclave / 2019 Volvo S60 T6 Inscription

  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    all I know is the Avalon fits me very well.

    There is truly nothing wrong with that at all. Personally, I think all cars require their own driving position with each driver. I mean...I've paid attention to how I have sat in the various cars I've owned and all of them have required something different to truly find that comfortable position for me to be in. Some were more comfortable than others of course, but they all had their own quirk
  • jaymagicjaymagic Posts: 309
    I will only admit that I would love to see 270 lbs again. My Azera easily accomodates a very comfortable driving position for me (don't really know if my legs are straight or not, but doubt it), with knee room behind the seat for another like me ( I know because I have been there.). Now my 2000 Avalon would do the same thing.

    I have to check out the Genesis, but a good friend, who often rides with my wife and I says the Genesis seems even a little larger than my Azera. But, I agree, perception may sometimes trump reality.

    Of course, my position is that ANY sedan that wishes to be in the category of mainstream sedan, should meet the 270 lb. test. The only " mainstream sedans" that I can never be comfortable in are from Pontiac (have not tried a G8 tho). Historically, the low roof line kills me before I can even get in the car.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    The Azera does indeed provide a very comfortable driving position, 6'2", with the driver's seat in position for me to drive, it's not too comfortable for me to climb in the back seat behind the driver's seat. I have to sit with my legs open (a knee on each side of the seat back). In the Genesis...I was able to put my knees together and still have a couple inches between them and the seat back.
  • zierzier Posts: 9
    It might be better to compare the Genesis with other makes. The car has real wood, real metal, and not plastic grain or painted gray and chrome plastic of the Avalon and Azera, and offers a V8. Not all cars are super large, and luxury cars tend to have larger dimensions, but also larger seats so less leg room, especially in the rear. The Genesis is competing against cars that offer V6 and V8 offering, like the Lexus GS, Infiniti M, Cadilac STS, Mercedes E, Audi A6 but at a lower price. This is not just another iteration of the Azera.
  • zierzier Posts: 9
    Car sales of large cars are all down this year versus last year -

    The Impala is way down, but is really a midsize based on interior dimensions, but is the top seller of the cars listed (152K for this year so far versus 210K last year at this time).

    The Ford Taurus at 36K this year is now outselling Avalon 31K (Taurus sales are down (36K for Taurus vs. 42K for 500 at this time last year) but not as down as Avalon (31K versus 46K). The Charger is selling fairly well but down (64K versus 72K), the Chrysler 300 sales are way down (43K versus 72K). Azera (12K versus 14K) and Amanti (2.5K vs 4.5K) have never been big sellers compared to the others. The Buick Lucerne is also way down similar to the Avalon (around 31K for the year down from 47K). Mercury Sable is 12K this year versus 13K for Montego last year, but this is really the same car as the Taurus except for styling cues. The taurus X is going away with the Ford Flex introduction (wagons based on the Taurus) but sales are way down (22K vs. 34k) but the FLex is also on the Taurus platform (or should I say the Vovlo S80 platform since it really started life as an S80 before 500/Taurus).

    This segment will most likely see a shrinkage in offerings as I doubt sales will rebound. The Sable is supposed to go away in 2010 and Mercury will offer small upsacale cars (european fords coming here to the states) and lincoln large cars. I wonder if Hyundai (Kia) can keep 2 cars with sales that are lowest in the segment. It seems that the 300, Lucerne and Avalon have taken the biggest hits, and they are the more expensive offerings in this segment. The others are off, but not quite so much. The impala is off partly due to the Malibu, but the next generation Impala will be a true large car, and will most likely be more expensive and sales will drop, but Malibu sales will exceed previous generation and take the place of Chevy's high volume seller that was Impala.

    I have a feeling that in the mid to upper 30's, there is a lot of competition in the midsize near luxury offerings, so some may looking at the brand more than the car and size.

    There are not too many AWD offerings in this class which will probably change. I suspect the Taurus is fairing better then Avalon as people come out of SUVs, they can still have AWD.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Zier...not to burst your bubble, the Genesis does NOT have real wood on the interior. It is a faux wood like the rest of the Hyundai cars have, it's just their best faux wood product. The worst Hyundai offers is what you'll find in their Santa Fe's...looks like the wood grain was drawn on with a Sharpie pen.

    Also, the Genesis does have larger seats than compared to Azera and Avalon, but leg room was not sacrificed.
  • zierzier Posts: 9
    Mine did not burst. The wood on the doors surronding the switches is not real, as is th case in some other cars. But, on the dash, yes it is real.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Where have you heard that the wood trim in the BASE model Genesis is real wood??? Why would they use real wood on the dash and not on the doors? If there is any real wood, I would expect it to be the woodgrain steering wheel that comes standard on the 4.6.

    Indeed, IF any of the "wood" accents in the 3.8 are real, that would be a great. However, I highly doubt that the base model 3.8 would get real wood on the dash. The premium, premium plus and tech packages all come with leather on the dash. The 4.6 all have leather on the dash and the woodgrain steering wheel, which is more likely to be real wood than the wood trim on the dash of the base 3.8.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    None of the wood trims in the Genesis are real.

  • jg585jg585 Posts: 9
    The seat in my ’07 Lucerne is SO uncomfortable is cripples me. I love the ride, but the seat is a killer. Dealer stuffed it twice. Still terrible. I have to use a Homedics seat pad.
    As it approachs 50,000 mi I want to dump it before the warrantee expires. My body likes a Nissan Altima. Chrysler 300 wasn’t bad. Honda Accord so so, VW Passat too short in the seat bottom and so on and so on. Too bad as I like the Lucerne.
  • rpfingstenrpfingsten Posts: 154
    Jg585..... have to agree with you about the seats in the Lucerne. When I was in the market for a car, I nearly bought the Lucerne. Loved the ride, actually found the ride to be better than my Avalon, but I do remember telling my wife that I just didn't feel comfortable in the seats. I attributed it to my being 275 lbs, but my wife said the same thing when she drove it, and she only weighs 120 lbs. Other than that I really liked the car. Although I think for my purposes I was better off buying the Avalon.

  • tjc78tjc78 South JerseyPosts: 9,185
    Too bad as I like the Lucerne.

    I would definately give the Avalon a drive and also go test drive a Hyundai Genesis. Its a very nice machine, I drove one recently and am seriously considering replacing my '06 Avalon with one early next year when my lease is up.

    2017 Buick Enclave / 2019 Volvo S60 T6 Inscription

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