In a few years, China will be running ads comparing their cars with the Hyundai stable, seeking to gain a little caché by associating Chinese cars with by-then well-known-in-America quality cars...
As I stated in my previous posting, the Azera is a great car for the money, but is not in the same league as BMW or Infinity, especially in the larger models
At the risk of sounding like a forum "host", this thread is for "mainstream", and most of us would think BMW & Infinity are far from that.
Bob...I've never said the Azera was the best car on the road. It is, however, Hyundai's best car on the road as well as huge stepping stone for the brand.
Personally, if Hyundai continues along this path...they should be just fine.
RE: 1814 Mike I totally agree that Hyundai, with the introduction of the Azera, has come a long, long way. 4 years ago I never would have considered, buying and driving a Hyundai, yet here I am today. I believe that Hyundai is capable of producing a luxury vehicle if they choose to do so. I'm not sure if they are willing, at this time, to build the infrastructure to support the jump into this segment of the market. For most Hyundai buyers, price and warranty are predominant factors.
In any event, they seem to be building brand loyalty certainly does seem to be the case, and something they can't help but profit from - long term. Those specs. posted for this 'magical' Genesis somebody posted look awfully close to those of the 300C, which discounting whatever reliability issues it has had, is a good (and successful)car in its own right. Interesting to me, that I saw no claims about FE or vehicle weight (likely well over 2 tons). That (the 300/09 Impala) is where the Genesis will need to compete if it is going to stay a 'Hyundai'. Called something else and trying to convince the public that this mfgr. all of a sudden has the ability to build a 'Lexus' is a real stretch and should be an extremely hard thing to sell - even if it is true.
Bottom line is that we will all know when and if this happens - it will be the same day that Hyundai doesn't have to discount or underprice their products heavily to sell them - at which point those of us that point to residual/resale values as a true measure of vehicle cost will have a lot less to talk about.
"in terms of market impact in this country, that Chinese car may have a slightly better known name than you might think - BUICK."
Re: that...
"It turns out that the first Chinese-designed car that will make its way into the United States is a Buick LaCrosse. General Motors may traditionally be thought of as a North American company, but they've got a design team in Shanghai that has been working on a few projects for them.
The Chinese-market Buick LaCrosse is expected to sell about 110,000 units this year, compared to just 76,072 of the American-market LaCrosse in the United States last year. Yeah, so what. That's the Chinese-market LaCrosse, so what does it have to do with the American market? Well, it turns out that this vehicle -- designed by a team headed by "Shanghai" Joe Qiu -- could be making its way across the Pacific as the next-generation Buick LaCrosse, which is scheduled to hit showrooms around these parts in 2008 or 2009.
Some have said that the Chinese LaCrosse "is way cooler than ours", paving the way for more Chinese-designed vehicles. Just don't bring us a Fengyin." ----------
Drove my buddy's red 97' M3 a few times does that qualify ?
My former FWD 2005 Acura TL 6-speed would run with his Bimmer M3. So I do have a taste of BMW's so called ultimate driving experience. I think they are over-priced and would still take the TL, over the M3 he had as the tL, had a more livable ride and you didn't feel every bump on the road. I roode once in a friends BMW 525i and another's 330i both of which were early 2000 models. I thought the M3 handled better than both of those.
So as a rule BMW's might be the most balanced cars in the world but that's about all they offer the consumer. They handle great and are pretty quick but from my luxury car I want more than just performance. If I just want performance I'd rather save alot of money and buy a Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution X which will spank every production BMW ever made in performance feats. :P
My point is their is more than just performance in a automobile and the Genesis, will offer you BMW 5 series like performance at half the cost. It will offer Lexus/Cadillac like Luxury with lots of gadgetology at half the cost.
So as a rule of thumb I and many others will say that BMW's are over-hyped. You are paying for a emblem instead of the product. It use to be you got a benchmark car when you baught a Bimmer, now you get a good performaning car but what else ? The luxury is expensive once you start throwing on options and stuff like "active steering" is a joke just like the self parking system in the LS460. I want gadgets I'm going to use not stuff that takes a computer operating on dial-up to calculate if the car can fit in the tight space on Rodeo drive. :P The Hyundai, has got it all for half the money and when you see the Hyundai, owner in your rear view I suggest you pull far over and lock your doors because they just might get blown off :P
The Azera, probably doesn't compete with BMW's or your Q45 but it is a nice luxury FWD sedan priced at regular cars prices. Ya know priced like a Camry. It's almost a no brainer to choose a Azera over a camcord. I think some ones a fool for passing up on that oppertunity.
I wasn't trying to compare Azera's to BMW's but was saying the Azera, is probably the best "Mainstream" automobile on the market.
The Genesis, isn't a mainstream automobile ! Just because it doesn't have a luxury badge, doesn't make it a mainstream car. If you want to compare why bother as it wins this comparo hands down. It's not worth wearing out your keyboard.
It's like the old slogan when I was a kid. "Genesis, does what Nintendo can't do" :P The Genesis does what all the other cars which are like Nintendo's by comparison can't do !!!!
as good as your TL-S was and is , there is no way that it 'runs' with a BMW M anything or FTM even a plain vanilla 530 - especially once the roads develop some curves. You really do sound like a Hyundai 'shill', the fact of the matter is none of us know what the Genesis is or will be, do we? You confuse straight line acceleration with things that matter more than that for those folks that appreciate and truly understand what the real differences are.
China has one thing that it won't ever be able to get past when designing vehicles.
If you check online for China and crash tests, you'll see articles about how their GMC clone got a 1 star rating.
Now, how did that happen? Vitrually the same. The answer is simple. They used recycled half-breaking-strength steel. Now, both will hold the same weight, but shearing and deforming in an accident is completely different.
We all know this when we replace bolts on most anytihng. The recycled home depot junk steel made offshore bolts... Yep, they strip their threads and snap clean off way before their properly made with new steel counterparts.
It'll take China decades to make a decent car because they aren't interested in making a car that's the same, because it would cost them the same as it does here - or close to it.(labor costs aren't too large with most cars anymore, given the manount of automation. The majority goes into advertizing, upkeep of the plant, and materials. That's not going to change much reguardless who you are. Only by skimping on materials wil you be able to be cheaper than the Korean makes.
A $6000 Chinese car? Yep - expect it to fall apart like their mopeds and garden equipment(mowers, etc) does.
the steel industries in this country (and Mexico) are currently shipping a good portion of their production overseas, China having the largest appetite. They (the Chinese) can't produce themselves anywhere as much as they need so as a result steel prices in this country continue to skyrocket. Recycling, as you mention, is becoming more and more common but I don't know if it is creating those quality issues you are talking about... If the cars produced for the burgeoning Chinese market (Buick is a big name over there) aren't required to meet the same safety standards why would GM be doing it? From what I understand a Lucerne 'clone' is being sold over there with a base 4 banger - any takers for a 150 hp 4000lb. sedan?
Captain, I should have mentioned that after I got the Mustang, I also modified it a little :shades: . Spent more on the engine than was paid for the car. It ended up running NHRA C/Modified Production in 1966, and easily turned 1/4 miles times in the 12's. Remember this is in Colorado at then Continental Divide Raceway at about 6,300ft. At one time, it was the quickest 289 non blown engine in Colorado. The biggest problem was getting the power to the pavement, it had a 5.56 rear end and could smoke 8" Goodyear Blue Streak slicks literally through all 4 gears, unless you were careful. Not the best way to get a quick e.t. With the stock 3.10 rear end, it had a top speed well in excess of 140 (but given the tires of those days and aerodynamics, I never ran it much over 140.
So, it just might have been able to beat my Azzy, lol
sure - our current engines besides having 2 less cylinders are also less a bunch of cubic inches, so that you could do things like put a full or 3/4 grind cam in there, oversize a carb to pump some more air and gas, change out the rear end gears etc. Keep in mind that the Mustang started life as a Falcon and weighed all of 2600 or 2700 lbs.. Sounds like you did a bunch of this stuff. But, the average factory stock 'muscle car' was more like that GTO I mentioned, those road test numbers coming from MTs car-0f the year testing back in '68 and certainly more typical of what you could buy for that $2600 you were talking about. Many of those type of cars would run actually in the 7s 0-60 and 15 second quarters, some of the lower production big blocks would, of course, do better. A good friend of mine also has a '65 coupe, 'modified' to be closer to the 270 hp Hi-Per model (4 bbl. and Edelbrock). Besides the obvious FE differences my Avalon (and your Azera) will blow it off despite carrying around an extra 1000 lbs. or so. Surprises me that you wouldn't have pushed that rear end up to 4 or 4.2 if you were drag racing, but if you did that you probably wouldn't be talking about pulling 140 mph in it, a frightening concept in a 65 Stang. We have come a long way since then, haven't we?
Captain...I'd still take that bet. The Azera is only about 400 lbs heavier, so the 8 more HP will cover that. However, the Azera will hit it's max torque before the Maxima will.
However, he stated his Maxima would blow the doors off anything that Hyunadai made. He's the one that better be careful of an Azera breathing down his tail pipe!
When you goose your Azera, does your neck snap back and your butt get lifted off the seat? Also, the Nissan's engine does NOT run out of breath at higher speeds, and I maintain that it would destroy anything Hyundai makes (at the track, of course ). When I was ready to get a new set of tires on the Max, I took the car to an empty lot and had some fun on the old ones (at least, as much fun as I could have while still being nice to the transmission). The power the car has is just incredible.
If I were in the market, I would gladly test drive an Azera just so I can either maintain or put my anti-Hyundai bias to bed. I just hate wasting salespeople's time, though. By the time I'm in the market the Genesis will be out, and THAT car has some potential. Alas, my wife just bought a minivan, so even though my car is paid off, we have 2 years and 10 months remaining until it's my turn. :P
It is so strange, to think that my next car will be a model year '10. I can't say, "Hey, I gots me a 'oh nine' Impala". No, it will be: "Oh, I bought one of the new 'ten' Maximas". "Which ten Maximas?" "No, the year 'twenty ten'". "Oh." Gah. Maybe I'll buy a leftover '09 just so I don't have to have that conversation 43 times over.
Just to wrap up, be careful when comparing Maxima model years, as another poster pointed out. The '02/'03 models are MUCH quicker than previous years, and actually a bit faster than subsequent years due to the car getting bigger (my model year Maxima was really replaced by the Altima).
I had a quick change rear end. Normally, on the street I used a 4.11, but for competition, I used the 5.56's. As you have guessed, the engine was significantly modified. The original factory redline was about 6,000 rpm (by my fading recollection). As modified, the new redline was 9500rpm and I would shift at 9200rpm. When going through the trap, I would be close to the 9500rpm redline at about 105mph to 107mph.
My suspension was okay for straight line 140 lol, but God help me if I had ever had to turn or rely on the stock brakes. Street tires, were the original Firestone Wide Ovals. I think I had one of the first 10 sets ever sold in Colorado.
Enough about the old Mustang, I will get back to "Mainstream Sedans" :shades:
Be careful, the Azera can go over 145mph and Car & Driver clocked it at 6.1 0-60. (I think the 6.1 would be hard to duplicate, but the 145 (I've read 147) seems very doable, particularly if at sea level.
I guarantee you...your Max will not "destroy" my Azera. I know you can't stand to concede to a Korean product or accept the fact that it will hang with your precious Max.
So you had some fun on some old tires, that proves power??? I've got enough power to spin brand new tires on a 20" package. Okay, my '02 Sonata could spin tires too with only 170 hp.
Oh, and believe me that the Azera doesn't run out of breath at higher speeds either. So far, I've had my Azera up to just a lil over 135 mph and that was with the factory tires. I only backed off because the car got that floaty feel. Notice I said, "...backed off..." The car still wanted more!!! I think the Azera is capable of running just above 140 mph when it's all said and done.
I'm not saying I would beat you, but I sure as heck don't believe you would "destroy" me in a race my friend. I know you won't be looking for me in your rear view mirror...that's for sure!
And that's why we get two different Chinas when it comes to steel.
The recycled stuff is almsot everywhere in exported goods. The good stuff goes to their military and major construction projects, so cars and consumer goods don't do as well.
And yes, the new Buick looks good, but it's mostly thanks to the immense size difference that it does well in crashes, recycled steel or not. But I'd not want one in a crash over here versus a typical SUV. I've seen firsthand how remanufactured steel can cause problems.
P.S. Just ask any airplane mechanic about it - you'll get ten times this much in comments.
I recall reading that on the Korean test track, they could regularly exceed the Azera's 160 mph speedometer. Of course, I'd expect that that was with a lightweight Korean driver and with just enough gas in the tank to complete the accelleration run...
so what do you think happens when GM discovers that they can save some money and can import portions of the Lucerne (subassemblies, engines etc.) to assembly plants in this country or Canada? Doesn't speak well for the future quality of that car does it?
No, unfortunately, I smell a D/C type implosion as initial quality and value go way up but the cars suddenly start to fail in crashes and long-term reliability. Kind of like if you take Hyundai where they are now and run them in reverse time-wise.
Cost-cutting above all else is a dead-end path as Mercedes learned. People want you to put forth your best effort and will generally pay for it.
I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that my former 2005 Acura TL, would run not neccessarily beat a Bimmer M3 from the mid 90's I owned the TL, and drove my buddy's M3.
You really do sound like a Hyundai 'shill', the fact of the matter is none of us know what the Genesis is or will be, do we?
I have no doubt it will out run the Bimmer 530/535i? the one with the 335i's turbo engine on paper. It might just out do the 545i. :P We will find out in the fall of 2008. So we have a little over a full year here in the States to find out. The cool thing is one day we will get to see in a future test in a car magazine how they stack up in the real world but my early prediction is a victory for the Genesis as Hyundai. You and I might have to meet to settle the score in a road race. :P
this 'shilling' does get old - but I guess we will see if it does at least what the Chrysler 300C (this car more obviously the competition) can do, or maybe we will know for sure (from some GM 'shill') how great the new Impala is, a year before it is actually produced. Kind of reminds me of all those Five Hundred Ford guys, that while they couldn't point to even a passable drivetrain, would tell how how great the car is and will be with a more competitive engine. That was more than 3 years ago and TMK, it hasn't happened yet.
I disagree...Volkswagen stepped way out of it's character in trying to produce a hand built CAR. The problem was, you could either get one model for like$60K+ (V-8) or pay $90K+ for the W-12...there was no in between. Considering the next closest thing in price by VW was only reaching into the $60K's was the Toureg with the V-10. Had the Phaeton been brought out under the Audio nameplate it would have followed naturally behind the A-8 and folks can see spending that kinda money on an Audi...not a VW.
No...the Genesis won't share that fate because it follows in a natural progession of build and price in the Hyundai line-up. The Azera can be had, fully loaded, for just under $30K. The Genesis will start out (according to Hyundai) around $30K and top out between $35-38K. That's really not far reaching with what they're establishing with the newer Sonata, and definitely the Azera.
exactly, people who buy the true luxury/sports sedans won't give it a sniff, even if only because they want a badge in their driveways and want to spend more than maybe they have to. The Phaeton, except for some now typical German techno gizmo problems was a fine car, but nobody wanted that VW in their driveway especially when the same money would put a Bimmer or a MB out there. The fact that this Genesis may be significantly less money will only keep those kind of buyers away, not to mention the fact that that 'H' will continue to mean 'cheap' - at least for the next several years or so. Whether it is true or not is not the point or the problem.
Don't think that's who they are aiming at...if you pay attention to Hyundai, you would know that they are trying to offer those that can't afford the "true" luxury/sport sedans a chance to own one. However, as time goes on and folks start seeing Hyundai as for real and a viable option...you'll see some that had planned to get a BMW, Infinity or MB opt for something like the Genesis because they want to save some money.
Oh, and believe me that the Azera doesn't run out of breath at higher speeds either. So far, I've had my Azera up to just a lil over 135 mph and that was with the factory tires. I only backed off because the car got that floaty feel. Notice I said, "...backed off..." The car still wanted more!!! I think the Azera is capable of running just above 140 mph when it's all said and done.
OK, OK, I hear ya. I WILL make a point to drive an Azera next time I'm in the market, just because of your insistance that it is a worthy competitor to the Maxima. Hey, I'm open to discovering new cars. I just have a hard time believing the same company that produced my wife's college buddy's Excel could make something that rivals my car.
So, IF I had my car up to those speeds, and I'm not acknowledging anything, but I would wager it would button down and not "float". I have read several entertaining autobahn stories from people who imported Maximas to Germany. The funnier things I read: "My windshield wipers suck when I'm going over 120", or "The cruise doesn't want to seem to engage much past 110". :surprise: :surprise:
However, as time goes on and folks start seeing Hyundai as for real and a viable option that, of course, the problem - if the car is genuinely superior than it needs a different name because otherwise it competes with things like the 300. And starting a new 'luxury marque' creates its own market acceptance issues once the buyers understand it is a 'Korean' car. Kind of a 'Catch 22'.
However, as time goes on and folks start seeing Hyundai as for real and a viable option...you'll see some that had planned to get a BMW, Infinity or MB opt for something like the Genesis because they want to save some money.
The problem with this logic is that BMW, Infiniti, and MB all make "aspirational" cars. You're buying a nice luxury car, sure, but you're also buying a name whether or not buyers of these cars can admit it.
As a Hyundai owner, I'm surprised you're not more sensitive to this. You KNOW people are going to judge you based on the fact you drive what is known as an "economy" brand. Now, even though I don't completely buy your Azera worship I know that there is nothing that screams "economy" about your car. It's a very, very nice ride compared to what most people drive.
However, people get shallow when it comes to cars, and let me give you a personal example.
A month ago, my wife bought a brand new navy blue Town & Country. It is VERY sharp, both inside and out. Her friend drives a 9 year old aqua colored Chevy Lumina - you can imagine what this thing looks like. However, when they went out on the town, this friend INSISTED she drive because she didn't want to be seen in a minivan!
This is the kind of perception Hyundai has to overcome as a "cheap" car company, and they have a LONG while to go. For the Genesis to succeed, it *has* to start under $30k. I know this would pretty much kill the Azera, but if the Genesis has the interior and drive to match the exterior, it is what they need to do to change customer perception. The NA auto marketplace is just brutal.
So, call me shallow, but if I'm looking at buying in the $35k range of cars, I'm thinking G35 or 3 Series. For the Genesis to get my attention, it would have to be every bit the car those two guys are, at 5k less.
Well...to think that Hyundai is the same company now as when they were producing the disposable Excel is your first mistake. They are 10+ years removed from that and have shown steady improvement, hitting their stride in 2002 with the redesign of the Sonata. Since then...sky has been the limit for them. I'm not touting Hyundai to be the best on the block, no, no, no...not quite. However...Hyundai is breathing down the necks of Toyota and Honda and both of those companies know it.
Well...considering your Maxima was built as a sports sedan, you're right...it would not "float". The Azera is a highway cruiser, a touring sedan...so naturally, the softer suspension will allow it to "float". I'm sure the tires have a lot to do with it too, because since changing to a performance tire that's wider...the car is much more stable at higher speeds.
I'm pretty sure the Max isn't the only car to experience windshield wiper issues above the 100 mph mark. Cruise control doesn't engage past a certain speed as a safety feature. Heck, the cruise on my Xterra doesn't maintain speeds above 80 mph very well. It's like pushing the gas pedal and letting of repeatedly. Under 80 mph...it's fine.
if your preferences run towards the Maxima end of things suggest to you that you will find either the Azera (or the non Touring Avalon) a bit too soft and sloppy. I considered the G35 as well 2 years ago, it is a wonderful car (even to the point of defining 'value'in the sports sedan segment) - just a bit small and a bit 'hard' for my tastes.
Captain...I would agree with you wholeheartedly on that!
If Hyundai really wanted to shake things up...they could offer an Azera with a sport tuned suspension. The car already has an athletic shape...why not?
hitting their stride in 2002 with the redesign of the Sonata. while I'll generally agree that the Sonata has been improved substantially (I'd tell you 2005 though, not 2002)and can be looked at as an alternative to Camcordimas etc. it should also be noted that the Sonata also started life on a JD Powers high and has been showing more and more reliability related issues ever since. And the reason why this doesn't happen to the Azera is because?
Because we have swallowed the kool aid, that's why. Or maybe because Hyundai continues to improve its quality control program and the Azera started in 06. I know you may occasionally peruse the forums on Azeras (even tho you don't have or want one). What you may notice is that other than the original clunk type issue, you have not seen virtually any owners (even early 06) complaining about any after market issues, and certainly nothing major or symptomatic to Azeras in general. And, now the Azera has been out for about two years.
Who knows five years from now, that may change. But for now, it appears they are continuing to be just as reliable/well built as the JD Powers survey indicates.
Trust me, the '02 Sonata is where Hyundai showed they could bring a design to market that wasn't quirky and be made with materials that didn't look cheap or cheesy. While the engine was the same as the previous model year, the transmission was a refreshing upgrade with the Shiftronic mode being offered standard on the V-6 model.
That particular Sonata showed that Hyundai could compete with the Camry and the Accord as the Sonata carried itself in a very Camry-like manner. However, that's not to say that the '06 re-design really is what raised the public's eyebrow concerning the Sonata.
The Sonata has a history to build upon, the Azera doesn't. The Azera is establishing itself now and it has set a pretty high benchmark for a first year model. I hope that the Azera can maintain and prove to be what owners like myself already believe it to be. A very good car.
keeping in mind that I put engine compartment sophistication above all else and that my basis for comparison is a 240hp 03 Nissan VQ, I'll contend to you that it wasn't until the 06 that the Sonata was a viable choice, that 2.7 never a standout in any regard. The Azera, OTH, has the proper stuff right out of the box although I would likely never consider one until they 'tighten' it up a little and maybe coax a few more mpgs.
Maybe THAT would be the reason why there's always cars and stop lights in my way when I'm doing speed tests!!!
Might be.
I'm not so sure what the handling characteristics of a car at speeds greater than 100mph have to do with anything, though . . unless you're buying it as a race car, or gonna be driving it in Germany.
Captain, I have an '05 Sonata with 2.7L. It's had enough juice for me, for non-race driving. No lack of power pulling into traffic or merging onto a high speed highway.
One on my friends thought it had so much power and liked the look of the Azera so much (and with over 90 more HP) that he started looking into the Azera over a year ago and has taken a few test drives. His present car comes off lease in June (a Mecury Mountaineer Premier V-8).
170hp is on par with the current Honda and Nissan 4 bangers, leading, of course to slower acceleration times in a 3200 lb.+ vehicle, although there is no doubt the V6 is going to be naturally a bit smoother. Based on numerous airport rentals, I found the 2.7 also a little rough besides being relatively slow - but, again keep in mind I'm comparing it to things like my wife's Altima 3.5, which arguably in 2003 was the best V6 available, there is (and was) simply no contest in either power or smoothness/refinement. The 3.3, however, I did drive recently for a coupla weeks and while it disappointed me in FE, it is a much much better effort and not necessarily because of the HP increase - although that certainly helps! And sure, several of these cars including the Azera ares going to be in the next county before that older Sonata even gets off the line.
Comments
At the risk of sounding like a forum "host", this thread is for "mainstream", and most of us would think BMW & Infinity are far from that.
Personally, if Hyundai continues along this path...they should be just fine.
Quiet bizarre for a modern car......
Mike
I totally agree that Hyundai, with the introduction of the Azera, has come a long, long way.
4 years ago I never would have considered, buying and driving a Hyundai, yet here I am today.
I believe that Hyundai is capable of producing a luxury vehicle if they choose to do so.
I'm not sure if they are willing, at this time, to build the infrastructure to support the jump into this segment of the market.
For most Hyundai buyers, price and warranty are predominant factors.
certainly does seem to be the case, and something they can't help but profit from - long term. Those specs. posted for this 'magical' Genesis somebody posted look awfully close to those of the 300C, which discounting whatever reliability issues it has had, is a good (and successful)car in its own right. Interesting to me, that I saw no claims about FE or vehicle weight (likely well over 2 tons). That (the 300/09 Impala) is where the Genesis will need to compete if it is going to stay a 'Hyundai'. Called something else and trying to convince the public that this mfgr. all of a sudden has the ability to build a 'Lexus' is a real stretch and should be an extremely hard thing to sell - even if it is true.
Bottom line is that we will all know when and if this happens - it will be the same day that Hyundai doesn't have to discount or underprice their products heavily to sell them - at which point those of us that point to residual/resale values as a true measure of vehicle cost will have a lot less to talk about.
Re: that...
"It turns out that the first Chinese-designed car that will make its way into the United States is a Buick LaCrosse. General Motors may traditionally be thought of as a North American company, but they've got a design team in Shanghai that has been working on a few projects for them.
The Chinese-market Buick LaCrosse is expected to sell about 110,000 units this year, compared to just 76,072 of the American-market LaCrosse in the United States last year. Yeah, so what. That's the Chinese-market LaCrosse, so what does it have to do with the American market? Well, it turns out that this vehicle -- designed by a team headed by "Shanghai" Joe Qiu -- could be making its way across the Pacific as the next-generation Buick LaCrosse, which is scheduled to hit showrooms around these parts in 2008 or 2009.
Some have said that the Chinese LaCrosse "is way cooler than ours", paving the way for more Chinese-designed vehicles. Just don't bring us a Fengyin."
----------
http://www.mobilemag.com/content/100/354/C12099/
Well, if the car(s) enter under the established Buick nameplate, that sorta fuzzies-up the need to build name recognition...
My former FWD 2005 Acura TL 6-speed would run with his Bimmer M3. So I do have a taste of BMW's so called ultimate driving experience. I think they are over-priced and would still take the TL, over the M3 he had as the tL, had a more livable ride and you didn't feel every bump on the road. I roode once in a friends BMW 525i and another's 330i both of which were early 2000 models. I thought the M3 handled better than both of those.
So as a rule BMW's might be the most balanced cars in the world but that's about all they offer the consumer. They handle great and are pretty quick but from my luxury car I want more than just performance. If I just want performance I'd rather save alot of money and buy a Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution X which will spank every production BMW ever made in performance feats. :P
My point is their is more than just performance in a automobile and the Genesis, will offer you BMW 5 series like performance at half the cost. It will offer Lexus/Cadillac like Luxury with lots of gadgetology at half the cost.
So as a rule of thumb I and many others will say that BMW's are over-hyped. You are paying for a emblem instead of the product. It use to be you got a benchmark car when you baught a Bimmer, now you get a good performaning car but what else ? The luxury is expensive once you start throwing on options and stuff like "active steering" is a joke just like the self parking system in the LS460. I want gadgets I'm going to use not stuff that takes a computer operating on dial-up to calculate if the car can fit in the tight space on Rodeo drive. :P The Hyundai, has got it all for half the money and when you see the Hyundai, owner in your rear view I suggest you pull far over and lock your doors because they just might get blown off
Rocky
Rocky
The Genesis, isn't a mainstream automobile ! Just because it doesn't have a luxury badge, doesn't make it a mainstream car. If you want to compare why bother as it wins this comparo hands down. It's not worth wearing out your keyboard.
It's like the old slogan when I was a kid. "Genesis, does what Nintendo can't do" :P The Genesis does what all the other cars which are like Nintendo's by comparison can't
do !!!!
Rocky
What does CTFU mean? The definition I found in Urban Directory is profanity? There must be a nice meaning?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
If you check online for China and crash tests, you'll see articles about how their GMC clone got a 1 star rating.
Now, how did that happen? Vitrually the same. The answer is simple. They used recycled half-breaking-strength steel. Now, both will hold the same weight, but shearing and deforming in an accident is completely different.
We all know this when we replace bolts on most anytihng. The recycled home depot junk steel made offshore bolts... Yep, they strip their threads and snap clean off way before their properly made with new steel counterparts.
It'll take China decades to make a decent car because they aren't interested in making a car that's the same, because it would cost them the same as it does here - or close to it.(labor costs aren't too large with most cars anymore, given the manount of automation. The majority goes into advertizing, upkeep of the plant, and materials. That's not going to change much reguardless who you are. Only by skimping on materials wil you be able to be cheaper than the Korean makes.
A $6000 Chinese car? Yep - expect it to fall apart like their mopeds and garden equipment(mowers, etc) does.
So, it just might have been able to beat my Azzy, lol
However, he stated his Maxima would blow the doors off anything that Hyunadai made. He's the one that better be careful of an Azera breathing down his tail pipe!
When you goose your Azera, does your neck snap back and your butt get lifted off the seat? Also, the Nissan's engine does NOT run out of breath at higher speeds, and I maintain that it would destroy anything Hyundai makes (at the track, of course
If I were in the market, I would gladly test drive an Azera just so I can either maintain or put my anti-Hyundai bias to bed. I just hate wasting salespeople's time, though. By the time I'm in the market the Genesis will be out, and THAT car has some potential. Alas, my wife just bought a minivan, so even though my car is paid off, we have 2 years and 10 months remaining until it's my turn. :P
It is so strange, to think that my next car will be a model year '10. I can't say, "Hey, I gots me a 'oh nine' Impala". No, it will be: "Oh, I bought one of the new 'ten' Maximas". "Which ten Maximas?" "No, the year 'twenty ten'". "Oh." Gah. Maybe I'll buy a leftover '09 just so I don't have to have that conversation 43 times over.
Just to wrap up, be careful when comparing Maxima model years, as another poster pointed out. The '02/'03 models are MUCH quicker than previous years, and actually a bit faster than subsequent years due to the car getting bigger (my model year Maxima was really replaced by the Altima).
My suspension was okay for straight line 140 lol, but God help me if I had ever had to turn or rely on the stock brakes. Street tires, were the original Firestone Wide Ovals. I think I had one of the first 10 sets ever sold in Colorado.
Enough about the old Mustang, I will get back to "Mainstream Sedans" :shades:
So you had some fun on some old tires, that proves power??? I've got enough power to spin brand new tires on a 20" package. Okay, my '02 Sonata could spin tires too with only 170 hp.
Oh, and believe me that the Azera doesn't run out of breath at higher speeds either. So far, I've had my Azera up to just a lil over 135 mph and that was with the factory tires. I only backed off because the car got that floaty feel. Notice I said, "...backed off..." The car still wanted more!!! I think the Azera is capable of running just above 140 mph when it's all said and done.
I'm not saying I would beat you, but I sure as heck don't believe you would "destroy" me in a race my friend. I know you won't be looking for me in your rear view mirror...that's for sure!
The recycled stuff is almsot everywhere in exported goods. The good stuff goes to their military and major construction projects, so cars and consumer goods don't do as well.
And yes, the new Buick looks good, but it's mostly thanks to the immense size difference that it does well in crashes, recycled steel or not. But I'd not want one in a crash over here versus a typical SUV. I've seen firsthand how remanufactured steel can cause problems.
P.S. Just ask any airplane mechanic about it - you'll get ten times this much in comments.
Cost-cutting above all else is a dead-end path as Mercedes learned. People want you to put forth your best effort and will generally pay for it.
You really do sound like a Hyundai 'shill', the fact of the matter is none of us know what the Genesis is or will be, do we?
I have no doubt it will out run the Bimmer 530/535i? the one with the 335i's turbo engine on paper. It might just out do the 545i. :P We will find out in the fall of 2008. So we have a little over a full year here in the States to find out. The cool thing is one day we will get to see in a future test in a car magazine how they stack up in the real world but my early prediction is a victory for the Genesis as Hyundai. You and I might have to meet to settle the score in a road race. :P
Rocky
No...the Genesis won't share that fate because it follows in a natural progession of build and price in the Hyundai line-up. The Azera can be had, fully loaded, for just under $30K. The Genesis will start out (according to Hyundai) around $30K and top out between $35-38K. That's really not far reaching with what they're establishing with the newer Sonata, and definitely the Azera.
OK, OK, I hear ya. I WILL make a point to drive an Azera next time I'm in the market, just because of your insistance that it is a worthy competitor to the Maxima. Hey, I'm open to discovering new cars. I just have a hard time believing the same company that produced my wife's college buddy's Excel could make something that rivals my car.
So, IF I had my car up to those speeds, and I'm not acknowledging anything, but I would wager it would button down and not "float". I have read several entertaining autobahn stories from people who imported Maximas to Germany. The funnier things I read: "My windshield wipers suck when I'm going over 120", or "The cruise doesn't want to seem to engage much past 110". :surprise: :surprise:
that, of course, the problem - if the car is genuinely superior than it needs a different name because otherwise it competes with things like the 300. And starting a new 'luxury marque' creates its own market acceptance issues once the buyers understand it is a 'Korean' car. Kind of a 'Catch 22'.
Time, of course will be Hyundai's best friend as time will prove whether or not the brand is worthy.
The problem with this logic is that BMW, Infiniti, and MB all make "aspirational" cars. You're buying a nice luxury car, sure, but you're also buying a name whether or not buyers of these cars can admit it.
As a Hyundai owner, I'm surprised you're not more sensitive to this. You KNOW people are going to judge you based on the fact you drive what is known as an "economy" brand. Now, even though I don't completely buy your Azera worship I know that there is nothing that screams "economy" about your car. It's a very, very nice ride compared to what most people drive.
However, people get shallow when it comes to cars, and let me give you a personal example.
A month ago, my wife bought a brand new navy blue Town & Country. It is VERY sharp, both inside and out. Her friend drives a 9 year old aqua colored Chevy Lumina - you can imagine what this thing looks like. However, when they went out on the town, this friend INSISTED she drive because she didn't want to be seen in a minivan!
This is the kind of perception Hyundai has to overcome as a "cheap" car company, and they have a LONG while to go. For the Genesis to succeed, it *has* to start under $30k. I know this would pretty much kill the Azera, but if the Genesis has the interior and drive to match the exterior, it is what they need to do to change customer perception. The NA auto marketplace is just brutal.
So, call me shallow, but if I'm looking at buying in the $35k range of cars, I'm thinking G35 or 3 Series. For the Genesis to get my attention, it would have to be every bit the car those two guys are, at 5k less.
Well...considering your Maxima was built as a sports sedan, you're right...it would not "float". The Azera is a highway cruiser, a touring sedan...so naturally, the softer suspension will allow it to "float". I'm sure the tires have a lot to do with it too, because since changing to a performance tire that's wider...the car is much more stable at higher speeds.
I'm pretty sure the Max isn't the only car to experience windshield wiper issues above the 100 mph mark. Cruise control doesn't engage past a certain speed as a safety feature. Heck, the cruise on my Xterra doesn't maintain speeds above 80 mph very well. It's like pushing the gas pedal and letting of repeatedly. Under 80 mph...it's fine.
I certainly hope people who are talking about driving vehicles at 100+ mph are doing it on a TRACK, and not on the streets/highways.
If Hyundai really wanted to shake things up...they could offer an Azera with a sport tuned suspension. The car already has an athletic shape...why not?
while I'll generally agree that the Sonata has been improved substantially (I'd tell you 2005 though, not 2002)and can be looked at as an alternative to Camcordimas etc. it should also be noted that the Sonata also started life on a JD Powers high and has been showing more and more reliability related issues ever since. And the reason why this doesn't happen to the Azera is because?
Who knows five years from now, that may change. But for now, it appears they are continuing to be just as reliable/well built as the JD Powers survey indicates.
That particular Sonata showed that Hyundai could compete with the Camry and the Accord as the Sonata carried itself in a very Camry-like manner. However, that's not to say that the '06 re-design really is what raised the public's eyebrow concerning the Sonata.
The Sonata has a history to build upon, the Azera doesn't. The Azera is establishing itself now and it has set a pretty high benchmark for a first year model. I hope that the Azera can maintain and prove to be what owners like myself already believe it to be. A very good car.
Might be.
I'm not so sure what the handling characteristics of a car at speeds greater than 100mph have to do with anything, though . . unless you're buying it as a race car, or gonna be driving it in Germany.
One on my friends thought it had so much power and liked the look of the Azera so much (and with over 90 more HP) that he started looking into the Azera over a year ago and has taken a few test drives. His present car comes off lease in June (a Mecury Mountaineer Premier V-8).
He's picking up his new Azera next Wednesday.