Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

captain2

the Avalon when it first came out really was (and still is to some degree) about the only Toyota product that could even be halfway construed as having at least some of the characteristics of a 'sports sedan', it is THAT quick. And improved FE over the old Camry based 200 hp model. Sales of the 2004 were plugging along at about 3-4000/month, the 05 hit the ground running at closer to 10000/month. In early/summer 05 they did indeed sell close to sticker, were difficult to find without price pumping distributor add-ons, and damn near impossible to find on dealer lots. Many owners of 05s had to 'order' them. Exactly the definition of a high demand and high quality automobile.
Since then Toyota has caught up a little and the actual price paid has been getting to within a few hundred of invoice simply because, I think, the same drivetrain is available now in the Camry and ES. If somebody like Ford or GM could even do that (produce a car that people actually WANT), not have to rebate or discount, they would certainly not be doing what they are doing from a pricing perspective - but the sad fact is that they can't - they don't make anything even close to the same car. So maybe demand has subsided a little bit, but in terms of market value (and resale values) it is best in class and has yet to receive anything other than rave reviews from every automotive/consumer mag in existence. Easily the standard to which the other cars in this group should aspire - 'Detroit' should be ashamed that it is a company like Hyundai that can manage to do that.

As far as 6 grand rebate goes, this, apparently, is available on 07 GMs (that don't happen to be demos) as well, the car I was talking about in the ad probably never existed, as many of those 'come-on' ad 'examples' don't. The fact that a GM or any car is rebated 20-30% is definitely relevant as it would indicate the depths to which Ford, in this case, has to go to get somebody to consider an inferior and outdated automobile.

louiswei

Grill - rip off from Nissan
Head light - rip off from Acura
Front fascial - rip off from Lexus
Side - rip off from Infiniti
Rear light - rip off from Aston Martin

Overall it looks good. Got to give credit to Hyundai by ripping off so many elements from many brands and pieces them together to make a graceful looking car.

But come on Hyundai, when would you start your own design scheme and stop ripping off from others? Until then, it'll still be considered as 2nd tier.

However, the Azera is one original looking Hyundai and good looking too. The photos don't do Azera justice, one has to see it in person to appreciate how graceful looking it is. I would even go to extreme and say that Azera is one of the few "classic" looking sedans left on the market today.

Oh by the way, the Veracruz looks like a RX inside and out.

allmet33

Honestly...I don't have a problem with it. I actually felt the front grille was a rip from the new Camry.

Regardless of what each part of the car looks like, as a whole...it's a beautiful car. What's even better...it's targeted for the mid $30K's!!!

Don't quite know how original the Azera looks when you pull it up next to a Benz S-class. The lines and curves are eerily similar. I've also had folks say that my Azzy looks like a BMW 730i too.

Look at how many years the Camry and Maxima looked similar to each other. It's not a new concept by any stretch of the imagination.

The Veracruz is a very viable crossover option to be considered with the Outlook/Acadia/Enclave and CX-9.

captain2

louis- how many cars out there are truly truly unique from a styling perspective? Even my Avalon takes 'Banglesque' cues from the rear, and Lexus cues from the front. Unless you are, of course, Chrysler, which has pretty much always been way out in right field, and produces these love-it/hate-it things like the 300. Most mfgrs. aren't going to take the same sort of chances on such a 'polarizing' design, and will 'copy' what people have already shown to like.

tjc78

When I first bought my '06 I had a legitimate hard time believing that it would get better FE than my '03. But after a year of driving it actually betters it by 2 MPG. Incredible considering the HP difference. What I like about the car is, even my softer riding XLS model can be fun to drive. Definitely some body roll but more than enough control for anything I dare to do with it. I am suprised the Avalon's sales are a little down but as you pointed out the 3.5 is now spanning the line and most likely is the cause.

imidazol97

>produce a car that people actually WANT

You seem to say that mantra often. Perhaps your opinion of what other people should want and what they do want differ?
People are buying GM and Ford cars every day.

>the same drivetrain is available now in the Camry and ES

It's nice to see someone state that the 3 cars are based the same. Early on people tried to say the Avalon was competely different.

imidazol97

>produce a car that people actually WANT

You seem to say that mantra often. Perhaps your opinion of what other people should want and what they do want differ?
People are buying GM and Ford cars every day.

>the same drivetrain is available now in the Camry and ES

It's nice to see someone state that the 3 cars are based the same. Early on people tried to say the Avalon was competely different.

> As far as 6 grand rebate goes, this, apparently,

Your "apparently" indicates you don't really believe it and I wouldn't either unless it's a demonstrator, program car, etc., meaning used to me. That's probably a comeon ad. And they help cheapen the image for any car no matter which store is using them.

captain2

you're taking things out of context again!
my opinion of what people want is unimportant, sales statistics and to some degree the prices that these cars command are indicative of what they are actually buying!
The Camry and the ES are the same car, same WB, platform, drivetrain. The Avalon is the one that is larger and that preceded the other two by a year or two and remains different. And yes when the Avalon came out in early 05 it shared nothing with the Camry or the ES at that time.

tjc78

"It's nice to see someone state that the 3 cars are based the same. Early on people tried to say the Avalon was competely different. "

The '05 Avalon was a complete redesign the ES and Camry now are based off that platform/drivetrain.

The Previous (00 to 04) Avalons were stretched Camrys. The ES has always been a Camry underneath.

tjc78

Wow! we both jumped in that one quick!

captain2

given my distaste for car dealers - I might even go so far as to tell you that ALL their ads are come-ons!

captain2

Sometimes I wonder if Toyota might have been better off naming the Avalon something like a 'Crown'. There remains this misconception that the Avalon is still an optioned out Camry?

tjc78

The redesign was such a change for the car that renaming it may have been a good thing. Although the Camry and Avalon share many things, IMO, they are very different vehicles.

jaymagic

Captain, you know I love the Azera, but what is this with beating up on the Avalon in this group. It's a great car and hugely different from a Camry. You can't go wrong with either the Avalon or the Azera. For those that don't want a Hyundai for whatever reason, the Avalon is the clear choice for a large sedan, unless you need a police car, with bench seats.

Two years from now, we will be sparring about the Genesis (or whatever it will be called) and the Lexus or Infinity. The people who buy BMW's and MB's will never look at anything else, even if Audi makes more sense.

allmet33

jaymagic...you're right, no matter how good a product Hyundai may put out, there are some that just won't give it any credit.

Right now, Hyundai is hyping the Genesis to be it's competitor against the E-Class and 5-Series. That's a tall order to fill. However, that goal is attainable...especially based on what they've shown with the Azera.

People can say what they want about Hyundai vehicles, but until they've gotten in one and driven it...they won't truly understand. Anyone that stops me and asks me about my Azera, I tell them...don't go in there and test drive one unless you're ready to buy one. You will find it very hard to not want to get it when you see how well it's put together, how it feels sitting in it, how it drives and most of all...what you get for the money.

One thing I find funny...folks talk about how the Avalon is sportier in handling than the Azera (which is true), but I have NEVER seen anyone drive an Avalon in a sporty way! If we were in Europe, both cars would be considered touring sedans and both are QUITE capable in every sense of the term.

captain2

jay- haven't read anything yet 'beating up' on an Avalon, there is simply nothing to 'beat on'. Think the problems that some folks have with it are those folks that value their purchases by the 'discount' they got on it, or the ultimate price they paid - not understanding perhaps that there is some truth to the adage 'you get what you pay for'.

Would have a hard time believing that even Hyundai thinks that it can successfully target Lexus LSs/GSs, Infinity Ms etc. with the Genesis. Can imagine that Hyundai would like to be considered the 'luxury' Korean brand leaving Kia for the masses - but really, Lexus/Infiniti? GM is supposedly coming out with a whole new line of RWD V8s for 09 - maybe more likely Hyundai's target?

allmet33

Well...for now, Hyundai has stated that it's goal is the European offerings. However, I know you've seen the new Lexus add offering up the new 438 HP Hybrid they have...WHOA!!!

First 8 speeds and a car that can parallel park itself (given the right parameters) and now 438 HP packed into a hybrid model!!! Lexus (Toyota) is definitely showing what it means to push the envelope!!!

If Hyundai falls a bit short of it's target for the Genesis, I think they'll still hit a bullseye because it is an offering that will give what it seems most of the Americans want...size, power, appeal and technology. If it has decent FE, then the fact that it will be offered at the mid $30K range will make it hard to ignore.

At 300+ HP, the closest competetior for that, price-wise would be a Hemi powered Charger, 300 or Magnum (excluding the SRT-8). I mean...anything made by Lexus, Benz, BMW or Infinity will cost you a minimum of the mid $40K range just to get that kind of HP & size.

I know Pontiac is dropping the G8 which in GT badging will possess a 362 HP V-8 and will be priced between the mid $30K's to maybe $40K. It too offers the power, size and appeal, but...will it have everything else it needs. I certainly hoped they learned from their failed GTO.

captain2

remember when Toyota came out with the Lexus LS back in the early 90s? Toyota already had an established and great reputation for building great cars, they come out with a new name, underprice the BMWs/MBs at the time, and delivered, of course, exactly what the market expected. A huge success complete with new dealerships that would do everything but wipe your nose for you. Would suggest to you that if Hyundai wants to compete in that market, they should try to do the same thing. Not sure that Hyundai has either the technical expertise or finances to do what you are suggesting, and that they shouldn't concentrate on what they are showing is easily done, making those "American' manufacturers look silly!

w9cw

I guess everyone forgets how the Japanese "copied everything," not only in the auto market, but everywhere else in years' past. Not only aesthetics, but "nuts and bolts" items, such as SU and Solex carbs (Mikuni), and everywhere else mechanically. Hyundai is certainly not the first to do this, nor will it be the last.

captain2

besides which, the 05 Avalon (at 280hp at the time) was the same size and would outaccelerate the Lexus LS430 back then - for $20k+ less. Does that make it even equal to it - NOT!

captain2

you leave out something very important - sure, they 'copied everything', you leave out 'improved everything' and not only the Japanese but now also the Koreans, the current crop of sedans available to all of us, being prime examples. And while we're at it, why not 'let' the Chinese come in an do the same thing? There really should not be a reason in the world why we can't develop and build competitive cars in our own country - it is a business we used to 'own'.

jaymagic

I don't think Hyundai is going after the LS (yet). The GS is a different story. I can remember when Lexus and Infinity "went after" Bimmers and MB's. People said no way. Now the build quality on the Lexus and Infinity cars is much better than Bimmers or MB's (at least in the last few years). I would take an Avalon or an Azera over many of the way more expensive tiny 3 series German cars right now (not the M's naturally, lol).

But, like those that will not go after a Korean car, I think there are still a number of people that will not look outside Germany for a sport/luxury sedan, just based on history and brand cache. Unfortunately, we don't have Autobahns in the US. so sustained 155+mph driving is not a very real possibility. But traveling in a VERY capable lux vehicle is an everyday yearning. I think the coming Hyundai will offer a very tempting package for well under $40K out the door. And, I am willing to wait and see what the US can offer with the various zeta platform vehicles. Two years is an eternity in technology.

I am not pro Hyundai or pro Korean. I am for the best deal on the best car I can afford, regardless of country or brand. If it is a US make or MADE (including just put together) so much the better. The better our economy the happier I am. PS, if the car I picked happened to be a hybrid or save me a few bucks and help the environment, even better.

allmet33

I don't know about improving everything...there's nothing technologically superior about the 3.8 V-6 used in the Azera.

The U.S. can still crank out power and has been able to with engines like the Hemi. However, the foreign makers are better at producing engines that offer power along with good FE (especially Toyota/Lexus & Honda/Acura).

allmet33

I have to agree jaymagic, not the LS (that's got 400+ HP, not to mention the price tag), but definitely...the GS is attainable. Power-wise...it'll be up there with the 430, price-wise...it'll still beat the 330!!!

Same goes for the Infinity M's...power-wise it's up there with them, but will sell for less than the G.

Hyundai hit a huge mark with what they did in the Azera. The way they were able to make a value based sedan look, feel and act like it's worth way more than it really is. I really do believe that Hyundai can pull it off.

jaymagic

BTW, listened to a Hyundai press conference and the "Genesis" will be released in Korea at least 6 months before late 08 US delivery. That should help with quality control on a new model.

allmet33

Isn't that how they've done all their models? I know the XG was out there before it showed up here. I'm pretty sure the Azera was out there, before it was dropped on our shores. I can also say that the Azera was delivered to some at the California HQ and given to select personnel to drive and give feedback on for a few months before they showed up in the show rooms of America.

jaymagic

I am not sure about the Azera, I think it was released in Korea about the same time as US. I know the Korean version had more technology in it (NAV, etc.). I seem to recall they had the early production "clunk" in Korea, too. At any rate, I think the six months lag time will be very helpful in bringing a car to market that has to be "right" the first time.

imidazol97

Releasing at home for a time lets them iron out the bugs. When it comes here it's viewed as new but never developes those inevitable first-year-model problems. Hence it improves the image of the company. That's what the Japanese makers had done with some models. It actually misleads us here into thinking they never have teething problems with new models! grin.

Good technique, no doubt about it.

The Genesis is beautiful. I just saw the MT spread on it with pictures and a friend had sent pictures yesterday. Really nice shaping without the slant-eye look on headlights and taillights.

allmet33

Well...I know GM does it to an extent. I mean...my wife went to the GM plant this past winter and she commented on how they were testing an '09 model vehicle already.

floridabob1

RE: 1652
Most Hyundai buyers are unwilling to pay for too much research and design. We want a good reliable ride for not too many bucks.