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Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

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Comments

  • kojack1kojack1 Member Posts: 2
    Azera is coming out with navigation in the up coming model.(sports edition or package) by the end on the year. Which includes a navigation system & XM radio etc... Thanks ko jack1
  • smithedsmithed Member Posts: 444
    Dear Host,

    shouldn't some of this discussion be moved to the Azera forum? that's all I see in here.

    Thanks,

    ES :shades:
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Maybe because that's all folks seem to be talking about. If you want to see a new conversation...why not start one. ;)
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 16,942
    This discussion is linked to all the sedans at the top. It just so happens that the Azera (and Avalon) forums have a lot of activity and see this board often.

    2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic

  • jaymagicjaymagic Member Posts: 309
    Many of us Azzy owners would be happy to discuss the shortcomings of other makes. Let us know which one you would like us to critique.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    nice if we could talk about some of these other vehicles. And perhaps some of you could take the Azera specific conversation to one of the dedicated discussions.

    Those who want the conversation to shift can help us out a lot by shifting the conversation. ;)
  • smithedsmithed Member Posts: 444
    I tried starting a new conversation about the many cars listed above, but got no takers. :)
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Maybe you should change the content of the discussion. I don't recall that post to be honest.

    However, to be honest...the Azera is creating the bigger buzz because it's a viable option from Hyundai in a segment nobody ever expected them to be in.

    We've discussed the shortcomings of the American V-6's ala the Lucerne. It's got the size, it's got the comfort, but lacks the muscle under the hood. You have to step up to the V-8 option. Same thing with the 300/Charger.

    There is one guy on here that just loves the Maxima and he's trying to convince us that it belongs in the entry level luxury segement where the Azera and Avalon are, but he's downing the Azera for not having Navigation and Bluetooth (which make a car fit the luxury mold in his opinion).

    Anyway, feel free to chime in on any of this. Maybe you offer a fresh new spin on some the stuff we've hashed about already. Welcome to the forum!
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    Navigation should make its way into the US-spec Azera in about a few months.
  • scottlscottl Member Posts: 109
    I posted a view of the 2008 Taurus on the Taurus forums, but I'm going to put it here, too.

    Personally, I think the lack of Hyundai dealerships in the hinterlands is going to nix that choice for a lot of people. Ford dealers are everywhere.

    I was pretty impressed by the new TaurusHundred.

    I just returned from a 2500 mile 'test drive' (Avis rental) of a 2008 Taurus SEL. My only previous exposure to this platform was a week long rental of a Montego a few years ago.

    The driving was 80% Interstate cruising at 80mph 10% 55mph two lane and 10% suburban traffic.

    I liked the Montego I rented a few years ago, with the exception of the barely adequate drivetrain. The new Taurus has solved that problem in spades. 0-60 and highway passing are great! The tranny shifts smoothly, in fact, I didn't even realize it was a six speed until I had driven it about 1000 miles. It could use some manual control options, but other than that it was flawless around town. Mileage was 26mpg at 80mph, about 22 around town, and I hit 29mpg on a 55 mph stretch of 50 miles or so. This is a *large* car, so that is pretty good.

    Speaking of large, the rear seat legroom is limo-like, the trunk is mammoth, and the front seat accommodations are very comfortable. My wife had driven an Impala about 1500 miles a few weeks earlier, and the seats and overall comfort in the Taurus were head and shoulders (and back and...) better. The car was tight and very quiet. The 6 disk CD changer sounded great, it plays MP3 format CDs, and if you are looking for that iPod jack, it is INSIDE the console, a very logical place for it.

    The downsides: they have definitely detuned the suspension from the Montego I rented. I thought the Montego handled very well for its size. The Taurus is WAY too soft for anything other than highway cruising and flat straight suburban driving. The power steering is numb. The brakes seem to be just OK. The Continental tires are narrow and break traction too easily in both dry and wet, although very quiet.

    The transmission cries out for some manual control possibilities. Six gears and your only choices are low and drive, with an overdrive lockout button. 2,3,4 are automatic only Huh?

    I live in a mountainous area, and I think other than the extremely low ground clearance, the AWD Taurus would have the potential of being a good mountain car, but the soft suspension, numb steering feel and lack of manual control of the tranny are three big strikes against it. Perhaps the AWD model has a stiffer suspension?

    For the 95% of the target consumers who don't need to go around curves, the Taurus would work well. I have a Toyota, a Mazda and a Chevy pickup right now, and I would definitely consider a Taurus if I lived in the 'burbs. For aggressive driving, it needs some work.
  • smithedsmithed Member Posts: 444
    Are there optional suspensions available for the Taurus, or does only the Mercury come with the firmer suspension? Or is it the tires? It sounds like Ford went for the limo ride like the rear seat. The trunk is used, at least it was in the Five Hundred I looked at two years ago, so presumably the Taurus is the same size. I think it was 22 cubic feet. Certainly it is a family size car. The Taurus has the new bigger V6, right? :shades:
  • scottlscottl Member Posts: 109
    I don't know if an optional suspension is available. The front felt OK, it was just the rear that floated too much. And the car leans more than the old Montego. The SEL level has 17" tires and the higher levels have 18", so tires can be addressed, but I think the suspension is the same on all.

    Maybe they'll put a "Police Package" on the Taurus that would stiffen things up.

    The engine is a new 3.5 Liter with 260 HP. Performance was more than adequate in all situations. 0-60 times are quoted as being under 8 seconds and the tranny always seemed to have a good gear, but I would still prefer a manual mode for long mountain downhills.

    I was totally impressed, and I was prepared to be underwhelmed. As it is, it would be a great choice as a family car for probably 95% of people. However, it isn't going to grab many Subaru/Audi/BMW drivers.

    As an aside, when I returned the Taurus I mentioned to the guy at Avis how impressed I was with the car. He said they had only had them a few weeks, but several people had gone out of their way to say the same.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    You'll probably have a little less roll on the 18" tires as the profile will be a little lower.

    As far as the trunk goes, that's certainly one place the Taur/Hundred shines brightly. I mean...you can stash a few bodies in there to go along with the golf bag and a suitcase or two! LOL

    For me, the only thing that was uninspiring in the Ford entry was the interior. It just seems so bleak and clinical...far from inviting. However, this is just MY opinion, so please don't think I'm trying to say that everyone should see it this same way.

    First word that comes to mind concerning this car...cavernous!!!
  • alexstorealexstore Member Posts: 264
    There is one guy here, who thinks that Navigation systems are either CD or Satellite based and his Azera is the best car in the world. I was waiting for you to correct yourself on this forum, but instead you chose to attack me.
    For your information all Navigation systems nowadays are satellite based and use trilateration to detect your location. In simple terminology, they calculate your distance between at least 4 satellites.
    Cellphone based GPS have significant issues detecting your location. In rural areas their precision is at about 50 feet.
    New Navigation systems are hard drive based , but in car navigation in many cars are DVD not CD based.
    I also agree with one poster and our Host that this forum is Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison forum and is not Sonata or Azera forum.
    Maxima is not the best car even in this forum, I think its Avalon, but at least it does not resemble any other car unlike both Azera and Sonata that resemble Honda Accord
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 16,942
    "Maxima is not the best car even in this forum"

    Depends what you are looking for. If you want a pure sports (large) sedan the only other vehicle in this group would be the 300C (hemi). Of course, you could argue the Impala SS too, but, not sure how well that handles, lot of weight on the front wheels.

    2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic

  • smithedsmithed Member Posts: 444
    "Maxima is not the best car even in this forum"

    Depends what you are looking for. If you want a pure sports (large) sedan the only other vehicle in this group would be the 300C (hemi). Of course, you could argue the Impala SS too, but, not sure how well that handles, lot of weight on the front wheels.

    With the new Altima being nearly the same size as the Maxima (and they are built on the same assembly line) what advantage does a Maxima have? Is it the suspension or appointments? Aren't the engines the same?

    I have a 300C, I'm not sure it is a "sports sedan", but I like it, had it two years. :shades:
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Are there other cars in this category that are not listed which you'd like to see listed? I have to take one off the list for every one that I add, but maybe if we freshen up the list we can freshen up the conversation. :)
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 16,942
    Other than swapping out the 500 for the Taurus I can't think of any. Is there even a dedicated group for the 08+ Taurus yet?

    2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic

  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 16,942
    "what advantage does a Maxima have"

    Not much right now, I believe it is being redesigned soon to differenciate it from the Altima.

    2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic

  • alexstorealexstore Member Posts: 264
    I have maxima and I agree if you look what Nissan did in the past Altima gets new design and in 2 years Maxima is redesigned.
  • dborthdborth Member Posts: 474
    This may not be the best thread, but July auto sales were just published for the top 10 manufactures. The sales results are for the month of July '07 vs. '06.

    As I can't figure out how to easily attach to this post, I have it scanned and can e-mail to one of the Host's if they feel like showing the complete results.

    July was a lousy month for all except BMW, up 21.0 % with sales of 24,300 units and 1.8% of US market share.

    I will share the big 4 and proceed to Hyundai
    GM, 312,600 units, down 22.4%, 23% share
    Toyota, 224,100 units, down 7.3%, 16.35 share
    Ford, 179,200 units, down 20%, 15.3% share
    Honda, 141,000 units, down 7.1%, 9.5% share
    Hyundai, 43,500 units, down 7.8%, 2.9% share.

    Source: Autodata/LA Times Aug 2, '07
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Is it a jpeg or can you turn it into one? You can post it on your CarSpace page that way.
  • smithedsmithed Member Posts: 444
    I wonder how that would break down cars/trucks/SUVs for each manufacturer.

    Especially GM and Ford must be truck top heavy, but maybe not as much as in the past with gas prices being up. However, businesses need trucks. :shades:
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Member Posts: 1,602
    dborth, why did you choose to boldface the Hyundai results?

    Alexstore, this thread has concentrated on different car models from time to time. Lately it's been focused on the Azera. Check prior pages and you'll see that the focus has been on other cars also.
  • alexstorealexstore Member Posts: 264
    IF market share is measured @ 100% and down, if all major automakers are down, who is up?
  • dborthdborth Member Posts: 474
    Of the 10 manufactures reporting sales for the month of July, only Nissan & BMW were up in unit sales compared to July '06.
  • popsavalonpopsavalon Member Posts: 231
    If this thread is for "mainstream large sedan comparisons" and is on the Avalon Forum, one would think the posts should have something to do with Avalon vs. other sedans comparisons, not just a continual bickering match about personal car preferences. What does the posting of market share have to do with anything??????

    I pull this Forum up because I own an Avalon. I'm not interested in bashing Hyundai, GM, or anybody else.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    The subject is all of the vehicles listed at the top. Have a look. This discussion shows up in all of those vehicle's groups, not just the Avalon.

    But - to everyone - we're getting a little sidetracked with the overall sales performance of manufacturers. Since that obviously includes many vehicles that aren't on topic here, let's move on.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    I pull this Forum up because I own an Avalon. I'm not interested in bashing Hyundai, GM, or anybody else.

    you will have a hard time getting a word in edgewise lately with all these Azeras folks seemingly dominating things with thier perceptions of what 'value' is - with at least some justification.
    The leader in this class, however, by about whatever yardstick, you choose to use, is clearly the Avalon IMO - the power and FE champ, the winner of about any 3rd party comparison done with these cars, and even the highest rated in terms of TCO (and not coincidentally resale values) despite a purchase price thousands more than most of these cars.
    And yes I am a little biased, my 55k old 2005 Avalon Touring without a doubt the best car I've owned - an unbelieveable combination of comfort, power and FE. The rest of the cars in this group, while there are some good 'efforts', are Avalon wannabes ;)
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    No one needs to feel that he or she will have a hard time "getting a word in edgewise", and we don't need to discourage people, please.

    Just speak up - we'll talk about any on-topic vehicle anyone wants to discuss.

    It's no one's fault that most of the participants here want to discuss the Azera. We just need to change the subject if we want the subject changed.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 16,942
    I'll chime my .02 in about the Avalon too. We all have our choices and can tell you I drove all the large cars south of 40K. IMO the Avalon beats them all. The only thing that is a compromise in the Avalon is the handling. It certainly is no sports car even in the Touring form. The Lucerne was/is my second choice but the powertrain options just aren't there for me (3.6 six speed please GM). The Azera continues to be the value leader in this segment however I felt the overall driving experience the Avalon was better. In addition due to weighing less the Av is a little quicker and gets better MPG than the Azera.

    To date I have a little over 13K on my '06 XLS and it has been flawless only requiring 2 trips to the dealer for LOF and tire rotation.

    2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic

  • martin22martin22 Member Posts: 53
    I'm sorry but I have to say I find this thread pretty meaningless. Most, if not everyone, will defend to the last their own purchase decision which was probably the correct one based on their own values and perceptions.
    I, for one, defend my decision to purchase an Impala SS which in my opinion is the best thing since sliced bread (Question: what was the best thing before sliced bread?)
    I would recommend to anyone to give that car a try but respect that person's decision to go elsewhere - such is the diversity of life.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Tell us what made you choose the Impala SS - what features are important to you?
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    Most, if not everyone, will defend to the last their own purchase decision which was probably the correct one based on their own values and perceptions.
    of course we will, somehow our egos getting in the way sometimes of admitting what could be $30k wrong decisions. Would be interested to know what your 'real' FE is with your SS and whether, it can maintain true highway speeds running on 4 cylinders - something I couldn't get the 300C to do?
  • bruneau1bruneau1 Member Posts: 468
    Why don't all you Azera fans switch to that forum. This is the Ford-Mercury forum. Have any of you driven the new Taurus or Sable? Do it, and compare prices. You might have a surprise. These cars are not everyone's cup of tea, but they offer some things that are superior to the Azera. Space, seat comfort and height, ride, mileage (FWD), and quiet that rivals many costlier vehicles. The change from the former 500 and Montego is dramatic.
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Member Posts: 1,602
    This is NOT the Ford-Mercury forum.

    It is the "Mainstream Large Sedans" forum and offers members' opinions about various large sedans.
  • jaymagicjaymagic Member Posts: 309
    Hmmm, Taurus versus Azera

    Space -- The Azera has more -- Front Headroom, Front Shoulder room, Front Hip room, Rear hip room, and Front Leg room -- I am guessing when you say the Taurus has more space, that you like to ride in the back seat or the trunk.

    Seat Comfort -- hard to say which is better, if SPACE is important and you are riding in the front seat, it looks like the Azera wins.

    Seat Height -- Certainly the Taurus has a higher roof, so you may be correct. Guess they couldn't figure a way to lower the center of gravity.

    Ride -- Kind of subjective -- Perhaps you have some figures that support this.

    Mileage -- Must have missed something, according to Edmunds, the top of the line Taurus (FWD) versus the Azera Limited shows the Azera gets better mileage 19/28 versus 18/28.

    Quiet -- Can't find a figure for the 08 Taurus, but I know the Azera was even more quiet than an Avalon in the Motor Trend tests, and the Avalon makes some tombs sound noisy.

    I guess comparing an 08 Taurus to an 07 Azera, it turns out I am not surprised -- the Azera wins. But, I do not question that the change from the 500 is dramatic -- a new engine will do that. Welcome to the Forum.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 16,942
    "Seat Height"

    When the 500 was introduced I believe the high seating position was actually a big selling point. Didn't they call it "command seating" or something along those lines. I would assume that the Taurus has the same height as aside from the engine and some stying bits the vehicle is largely unchanged.

    2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic

  • martin22martin22 Member Posts: 53
    Well, let's start with the eliminations based on personal preferences.

    Being a recently naturalised ex-pat Brit, I wanted to support a US brand so no foreign names were considered. Ford were ruled out because our farmer would never speak to us again. (I said this would get personal!)

    It boiled down to a choice between the Charger R/T and the SS (My wife hates the look of the 300 and the Magnum)

    The Charger drove like a dream with a little more road feel than the SS. The ride was a little harsher though. We disliked the cheap plastic look and feel of the Charger's interior. The Impala felt a lot better in this respect.
    Other features offered in the Impala -

    OnStar, such a great system - it still spooks me when the car sends me an email each month telling me how it's doing.

    XM satellite radio - we have 2 other XM receivers so we can enjoy a family plan add on. Also, I much prefer XM programming to that offered by Sirius which was the only service then available in the Charger.

    Remote start from 200ft - so nice to enter a cool car after arriving with the grocery cart when it's over 90 outside!

    The SS has many 'surprise and delight' features and, of course, that oh so lovely V8 burble. Overall, I think it is a very well equipped and screwed together package at a reasonable price.

    Oh, did I mention it was on offer at 72m/0%!

    In answer to Cap'n 2, we are retirees so our annual mileage is probably less than the norm. However, we did do a 5½K mile road trip last winter and averaged about 24mpg. Also, yes, our SS will maintain 70mph on a level interstate in the 4 cyl mode with the instant mpg reading in the upper 20's. On this point, the Charger sales guy told us that the Hemi DOD only works between 40 and 60 mph.

    Martin
  • scottlscottl Member Posts: 109
    I'm sure the Azera is a nice car. I think anyone considering one would do well to also look at a Taurus/Sable. This is not a rebadged 500 with a new engine. They made a lot of changes to the car.

    As for front/rear seat room, the rear seat room is a big factor in a FAMILY car. If you are driving solo you should probably be in something smaller. As for the front seat room, if your [non-permissible content removed] is so big you need something even bigger than the Taurus, then you should look at a full sized van....The Taurus is huge in that respect.

    The Taurus is quieter than the Avalon according to both road tests I've read.

    The Taurus mileage numbers are for 2008. The EPA has changed how mileage numbers are calculated, and the numbers are generally lower than they were before. The numbers for the 2008 Azera are not yet on the EPA website, but if they were 19/28 for '07, expect 17/25 for 2008.

    The Azera gets lower crash ratings than the Taurus, and is more expensive.

    The bottom line for most people is going to include things like how close the dealer is to their house, and how expensive the car is to maintain and service.

    I think the Azera will appeal to people who are totally against buying an American car. People with open minds will consider the Taurus, and I think the majority would choose it over the Hyundai.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    I think the Azera will appeal to people who are totally against buying an American car
    an interesting perspective - would be willing to bet you that you will find more folks that have a problem buying a Korean car than an 'American' one.
  • cobrazeracobrazera Member Posts: 352
    I think the Azera will appeal to people who are totally against buying an American car. People with open minds will consider the Taurus, and I think the majority would choose it over the Hyundai. Sorry, Scott, I purchased an Azera last Dec in spite of the fact that I am a GM retiree, eligible for GM employee discount.
    I have owned over 20 new GM cars over the years, my second car is a Mustang Cobra, and feel as an American, I have the freedom to buy what I want. I certainly don't have a bias against any manufacturer.
    The Azera was selected because it fit my particular set of needs.
    No doubt, more people will choose Taurus over Azera, mainly due to the huge Ford dealer network and Ford brand loyalty -not necessarily because it's a better car.
  • scbobscbob Member Posts: 167
    I think the Azera will appeal to people who are totally against buying an American car. People with open minds will consider the Taurus, and I think the majority would choose it over the Hyundai.
    Sorry Scott, but I owned a 96 Taurus and it left me stranded on the interstate at 112,000 miles when the transmission blew. Tow truck driver told me that he towed lots of Taurus' with transmission failures. Also heard the same from mechanics.
    I will consider an American car, but the Azera is more comparable to the Cadillac or Lincoln or big Buick class.
  • scbobscbob Member Posts: 167
    The Sept 2007 issue reviews most cars and the 2008 Azera did excellently overall.
    They also picked the 2009 "Genesis" as one of the 10 cars worth waiting for. Only two sedans made the 10 list-Genesis and Lincoln MKS.
  • scottlscottl Member Posts: 109
    There is not a single part on the 2008 Taurus that was on the 1996. No question that the older Taurus had issues, although there are a lot of them out there with over 200K on them. I guarantee you that you could find an example in every single make out there of auto trannys blowing out at 125K.

    Why are you not bringing up the 'stellar' track record of the 1996 Hyundai products? I know some owners from that era who could tell you some stories.

    Again, I'm sure the Azera is a nice car, but so is the Taurus, and dismissing it out of hand is silly, especially based on 12 year old experiences with a car that has absolutely nothing in common.

    I'm not a Taurus owner or a Ford owner, and probably won't be anytime soon, but I was impressed by the car for the 2500 miles I spent in it, and think it is worth taking for a drive if you are looking for a large car.
  • bruneau1bruneau1 Member Posts: 468
    Right on. Some zealots aren't willing even to investigate. They might find out something they are unwilling to believe.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 16,942
    When you get "burned" by a particular vehicle you tend not to go back to it. My '93 Taurus was a mess (head gasket, tie rods twice, leaked everything, and more all before 90K) My 98 Olds 88 had a water leak from day one that was never fixed, traded it after one year (looking back should have gotten a lawyer and lemon lawed it). These 2 vehicles turned me to Toyota and I have yet to by American again (except for my 99 S-10 used). However, I believe Ford and GM are now building better vehicles and when my '06 Avalon comes off lease I will certainly test drive a Taurus. Actually, I am pretty sure I will like it because the only thing I didn't like about the 500 was its lackluster powertrain. Of course by that time (March '09) the Max will be new, the Impala, Genesis... lots of choices :)

    2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic

  • fushigifushigi Member Posts: 1,459
    I think most people are smart enough to acknowledge the differences between a current and 12 year old model. However, if they've been burned by a model or brand, they may shy away from buying that model/brand or at least drop it lower on their list of makes to consider.

    I owned a Mercury that had horrible reliability including a problem that was seriously dangerous. So for me, I'll be avoiding FoMoCo products until I've made the rounds through the other brands that haven't left me stranded or put my life in danger. It doesn't matter that their current lineup has little to nothing in common with my car. Ford let me down. So until I've been disappointed by the other automakers Ford doesn't deserve a sale from me. And considering my age, tendency to hold on to cars for 8+ years, and the reliability of the Japanese & Korean cars I've bought, I doubt I'll ever buy another Ford product. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice..

    Hyundai hasn't burned me (my wife has an Elantra) so unless things change I'll be considering an Azera when it comes time to replace my current car.
    2017 Infiniti QX60 (me), 2012 Hyundai Elantra (wife)
  • vic10vic10 Member Posts: 188
    What were you running (or transporting) when you couldn't get the 300C to hold highway speeds on 4-cyl? With myself and luggage and doing under 75 (even 73...), and as long as I'm not going up a decent grade, my 300C will switch to 4 cyl. But hit 75 and the system automatically cuts out. I know it's working because I can consistently get 26mpg with cruise set at 70 - 73, but it drops to 20 or below at 75mph.
  • smithedsmithed Member Posts: 444
    Isn't it great that we have so many choices from what are very good cars compared to what we had to put up with in the past? :shades: The competition and technology has gotten us so far from where things used to be.

    From all of these mentioned here, I think I could be happy with any of them. It's like ice cream flavors: certain people will like certain ones.

    I think I would have to look at the Azera and Taurus if I were looking now. In July 2005, there was no Azera and the Five Hundred was weak. There was no Lucerne, only LaCrosse, no V8 Impala. For now, I'm keeping the C. :)
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