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Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

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Comments

  • rpfingstenrpfingsten Member Posts: 154
    allmet33... My 2007 avy has the 5 speed tranny with sequential shiftronic... I hate to admit it here on the forum but I have never tried the sequential shift for fear of doing some kind of harm to the tranny... for example, I've never understood, but when put the car into manual shift mode, it automatially goes to 4th gear... shouldn't it go to first. Salesman told me when he was selling the car to me that you can start driving it in 4th.. if that's true what's the point of first second or third gear... also, i'm not sure at what speeds / revolution you should be shifting so that you don't hurt the transmission... your thoghts please..

    Roland
  • arumagearumage Member Posts: 922
    The ES model is slightly different than the SE in that it has the shiftronic feature. I haven't heard about as many problems with the ES as I have with the SE. It could be the different engines though. I have the 3.2L V6.

    To be honest, I haven't used that feature much. It's my wife's car anyway. The only time I get to drive it is on the weekends. :(
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    mine a 05 Av now with over 40k, trust me - no problem at all 'manually' shifting it, it obviously moves like a scalded cat. The engine, being what it is, revs seamlessly, easily and quietly to redline (6500), rev limiters will stop you from doing any damage up there as well as the 'computer' taking over and shifting for you. And the salesman is all wet, just because the indicator says '4' when you push the lever to 'S' does NOT mean that is what gear the transmission stays in or starts out in - it still will downshift to lower gears at lower speeds. It does, however, lock out 5th, similar to the way most older OD trannies work. Any time in any car you constantly pull the engine or tranny to redline, you do obviously put additional strains on those components. That would apply to any car with any type of transmission and/or engine. As a matter of habit, not recommended - but for having some occasional 'fun', it is wonderful and not likely damaging. But beware, the gendarmes do seem to frown on 'laying rubber', 6 second 0-60 times, and the 100 mph you'd be nearing a quarter mile down the road - especially in a big sedan that is supposedly driven only by 'old folks'! ;)
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    I'll never buy another automatic again - problem solved
    while I'll agree with you that these tranny generated drivability issues are largely solved by doing it yourself, it is an inconvenience that 99% of the car buyers of cars like this are not willing to put up with or in many cases even have the ability to handle. These cars are not even available with manual trannies, there really is no choice in the matter.
    The Northstar, BTW, for a V8 is NOT particulary torque rich - instead being a smoothly reving 'twister' much like all these V6s you don't seem to like. Max HP and torque at the same sort of levels - and as a bonus you get to use a whole lot more gas!
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Rpfingsten...I don't know what you're afraid of...it works lovely!!!

    I don't know about it starting out in 4th. If you're sitting at a stop, you can only press up once and put it into 2nd. You have that option so you if you're on a slippery surface, starting out in 2nd takes some of the torque off the wheels for less chance of slippage upon take-off.

    That being the case, I can only imagine how slow the take-off would be in 4th gear. If it was true, the salesman should have demonstrated it and gave you a reason why you would want to do such a thing! In my opinion, just another case of an idiot salesman not knowing what he was talking about and wanted to say something that SOUNDED like he knew something the customer didn't.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    Both of these Lambda engines are extremly flexible. I have heard the 3.8 can be tuned to as much as 300hp and increased torque as well.

    These are fine engines from Hyundai.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    agreed, for any of you that remember the old XG350, or an older Sonata V6, the new engines redefine the way both the Sonata and the Azera drive. The only fault I could find on the 3.3, slightly higher fuel consumption but a smooth and willing engine to put it mildly. Think there are a few mfgrs. out there that would be well served buying engines from 'lil ole' Hyundai!
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Hyundai has been making some very good engines probably since about 2000 on. I mean...I had the '02 Sonata with the 2.7 V-6 (which was a carry-over from the previous model) and it performed wonderfully. Mated to the 4 speed auto transmission with Shiftronic, the engine purred at lower rpm's, but when you stepped on the gas pedal...you got a little growl from the engine. I wasn't a full blown roar, but it wasn't no whimpy, shrieking whine either.

    The 3.8 in the Azera is a very smooth operator. I mean...cruising at 80 mph is so effortless it feels more like you're only doing 50. Personally, I've taken it up beyond 100 mph a few times and the engine doesn't seem to breathe hard at all. The 3.8 is a very competent engine which I'm sure will be re-tuned and found in the new Equus when they decide to bring it out. I also hear there is talk of Hyundai producing a V-8 for the Equus as well.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    an idiot salesman not knowing what he was talking about and wanted to say something that SOUNDED like he knew something the customer didn't.
    You mean to tell me that people like this exist??? :D
    Do know several people that drive autos 'manually' as a matter of habit and as you suggest - 'it works lovely'. With me it is more a function of wanting to have a few 'grins' - because otherwise the tranny does fine on its own and the FE is phenomenal for a car with this kind of size and power.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    LOL Yeah, I know a few folks that drive automatics (not equipped with manual mode) in a manual fashion as well. However, by shifting that type of automatic transmission, you're doing nothing but stretching the bands which will eventually lead to failure.

    Automatic trannys equipped with manual mode is really for those that wish for more spirited driving. Yes, for general driving and cruising...auto mode is wonderful and I have no qualms with it at all. However, I'm the type that prefers a more spirited drive more often than not (not to mention the years of driving cars with manual transmissions) so I find myself in manual mode more often than not.

    I wouldn't say the FE is phenomenal, it could certainly be better, but it's not something I'm going to complain about.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    never liked the 2.7, thought it way too rough, but glad you had good luck with it. The old 3.5 is, I believe, still available in the Amanti - a car I would contend is not half the good drive that the Azera is. A good engine is more about 'how it does it' than necessarily 'what it does'
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    The Amanti is a "nice" car, definitely better than the XG in my opinion as far as looks go. I don't understand why they didn't give it more oomph under the hood, it could certainly benefit from it.

    As far as how it did, the 2.7 in my '02 Sonata had 105K miles on it in 4 years and not one mechanical failure or breakdown happend. Biggest issue was a ruptured power steering line that got replaced under warranty during the end of the 3rd year of ownership. The day I traded it in, the salesman said he was gonna have trouble convincing customers that the car actually had 105K miles on it as smoothly as it ran. I took rather good car of that car and loved it. Only reason I traded up for the Azera is my kids are growing and I needed the extra room the Azera afforded. Other than that...I would have held on to the Sonata to be honest.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    never read anything from anybody (that would know) that there is any correlation between 'shiftronic' trannies and tranny problems - although HABITUALLY 'holding' a tranny in gear longer than it normally would be logically should wear on all parts of a drivetrain - which what I think I said originally?
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    The Amanti weighs over 2 tons, the old 3.5 limited to maybe 200hp or so, creating both oomph and FE problems. If there is one thing that the Koreans need to figure out right now, it is how to build things well without the excess pounds...
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    I agree with you there, however...if they had the 3.8 V-6 that the Azera has...I'm sure the Amanti would be a much better performer.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Well...one thing that the engineers at Hyundai did was design a "governor" for the tranny so that if you try to exceed the maximum speed for a lower gear, it will automatically shift up for you (even if you have it in manual mode). Guess they realize there are those out here that would try it.
  • arumagearumage Member Posts: 922
    It's cheaper to build things heavier. Ford uses the same frame between the Freestyle and Volvo XC90, but the XC90 has offroad goodies, higher strength steel, and the V8 with only a 400 lb. weight penalty. The reason is that the XC90 has a fair amount of aluminum in the suspension vs. the less expensive steel in the Freestyle.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    actually Kia, in effect, does have the new 3.8 - they are owned by Hyundai. And yep, the Amanti at 20 lbs./hp certainly the slowest car of this group with about the poorest FE, mostly because of that poundage - a lot of standard 'bling' at a bargain basement price, however.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Yeah...I know Hyundai owns Kia, and the only vehicles they are using the 3.8 V-6 in are the Sorento and Sedona. The Amanti is still using the 3.5 that was in the XG from Hyundai. You would think that the Amanti being the Kia flagship, they would have upgraded the engine on it and maybe offered a 2 engine option.

    I think the 3.8 would alleviate some of the FE burden on the Amanti as the extra horsepower would compensate for the weight.

    Even if they did put the 3.8 in the Amanti, I would choose the Azera over it. ;)
  • floridabob1floridabob1 Member Posts: 1,190
    RE 422
    Every car that I have ever driven has had the same "governor" if it had a manual mode for the automatic transmission. Hyundai engineers certainly didn't invent this feature. My 98 Chrysler Sebring does the same thing.
  • jdre86jdre86 Member Posts: 30
    When I'm driving my Avalon in the manual mode, I can bounce it off the rev limiter all day if I choose to do so. It never automatically upshifts for me. This is the same for another relative's '05 Avy.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Floridabob1...there you go again. I didn't say that the Hyundai engineers invented the technology, I merely said they installed it. This was in response to a post about holding a gear too long causing damage to the transmission over time.

    Since when did Chrysler have manu-matic transmissions???
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    So you're saying you can keep the pedal floored in 1st gear and it won't automatically shift up on you??? I don't think the shift governor has anything to do with the rev limiter because you can almost take it up to redline before it'll happen, it has more to do with vehicle speed.
  • kronogoosekronogoose Member Posts: 116
    Just FYI, the Amanti will have the 3.8L Lambda engine plus other upgrades for 2007.

    http://blogs.edmunds.com/Straightline/1555

    Greg
  • arumagearumage Member Posts: 922
    Since '98 I guess. Like I said, my '00 Intrepid ES has it, but I don't think the lower models did. It probably came in on the '98 Intrepid ES too. It does wonders for the engine since it is pretty free revving, with redline at 6600rpms. If you don't use it, the transmission is fairly conservative, which is fine for me because I'm used to the '99 Camry LE 4-cyl that is my daily driver. :)
  • fairw21611fairw21611 Member Posts: 1
    Chrysler has used their "AutoStick" manu-matic since 1997 for sure. I have had it in the following cars:

    1997 Dodge Intrepid Sport
    1997 Chrysler Sebring LXi
    1998 Dodge Stratus ES

    and currently in my 2002 Chrysler 300M

    It works great and I love it.

    Bill
    Hagerstown, MD
    (future Azera owner)
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Thanks for clearing that up. Good luck with that future Azera purchase!!!
  • floridabob1floridabob1 Member Posts: 1,190
    RE: 428
    allmet 33, re-read your post #422. I believe you wrote that Hyundai engineers DESIGNED a "governor" for the tranny. My point is that limiters have been used for a very long time.
    This is just conversation, for fun. Let us not get angry.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Okay, okay...poor choice of wording. However, it was meant more to just mean that a governor of sorts was designed into the tranny so that one would avoid damaging it by going over the maximum speed for any gear, thus damaging it. That's all.

    It was never intended to make one believe that Hyundai engineers came up with the intial concept of transmission governors. I mean...Hyundai wasn't the first company to come up with a manual shifting automatic transmission. After all, Hyundai did jump in the game some 15-20 years after Honda, Toyota and Nissan.
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    They over-engineer the safety margins. It's exactly like having a rev-limiter at every shift. You can't push it to the limits without it usually taking over for you and inducing as much as 1-2 seconds lag between shifts. In normal driving, it's fine, though, but it's still nohting like a manual gearbox.

    Not to mention it's still an automatic and hugely more expensive to fix than a clutch.
  • jsylvesterjsylvester Member Posts: 572
    It is an electrical override feature on the computer control - just like 99% of the other autostick features. It does nothing to help or hurt reliability.'

    How do I know? I had autostick in my 2000 Intrepid R/T, and the car still blew two transmissions in 67,000 miles. I almost never used it - it is a gimmick more than anything else, unless you get stuck in snow or sand and need to select a gear.

    To me, it is pretty much a useless feature, and has no impact on deciding what vehicle to purchase.
  • jdre86jdre86 Member Posts: 30
    Yes, I can keep the pedal floored in 1st gear and it will just bounce off of the rev limiter. I don't quite understand what you're talking about when you say shift governor.

    Scenario: You're driving at 40 MPH and you're in the manual shift mode in 4th gear. You're approaching a red light and you begin downshifting (3,2,1) If you try to downshift to first gear before slowing down to less than 30 MPH you will hear a beep and the display will still show "2" indicating that the downshift was not made. Is this the shift governor you're talking about?
  • arumagearumage Member Posts: 922
    The first Toyota imported to the US was in 1958 so they are a little farther behind than that.
  • arumagearumage Member Posts: 922
    Some cars with manumatics will automatically shift to the next higher gear before redline. Most do not downshift by themselves though.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    You are right, but when you get used to driving it, you can learn to anticipate your shifts and that brief lag in between is compensated for a bit.

    With a 100K mile powertrain warranty, I'm not worried about expensive repairs any time soon on this transmission. If I keep up with the preventive maintenance...no problems. Do I really think it can last? The answer is yes, I took my '02 Sonata to 105K miles before trading it in and there was NOTHING wrong with the car whatsoever. Only traded it for the Azera because I needed a car with more room.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Jdre86...The shift governor isn't what you're explaining at all. First of all, there is no beep when the car downshifts...at least not in my Azera.

    The governer is something built into the transmission that will not let you exceep the maximum speed in any of the lower gears (1-3). You now how in a manual, you might be able to take 2nd gear up to 40 mph and hold for a few seconds? Well, with the Shiftronic if you have it in 2nd gear (manual mode) and you exceed the maximum speed for that gear, the transmission will automatically shift you up to the next gear.

    Arumage...If most manumatics won't downshift on their own, then what Hyundai has is truly wonderful, huh? ;)
  • arumagearumage Member Posts: 922
    It suppose it all depends on how you like it to hold a gear. The Hyundai Santa Fe actually shifts up in manual mode before the engine hits it's peak horsepower numbers.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Have you really tried pushing it? When you're driving a bit more aggressively on the gas pedal. Normally, with a new car, I like to do everything I can think of so I know how the car will respond in various situations.

    There have been a few occassions when merging into highway traffic, I've needed to hold 2nd gear for faster acceleration. If you exceed the max speed for 2nd gear and don't realize it, the car will shift into 3rd before you may be ready and you'll lose that acceleration you had.
  • jdre86jdre86 Member Posts: 30
    First of all, I'm not referring to the Azera. I don't drive that car, so I don't know much about it. I'm referring to the Avalon.

    Lets say that you are driving in the manual mode and you are at a red light. The display shows "1" indicating that you are in first gear. If I don't upshift by myself, the transmission will not automatically do it. It will rev all of the way to the redline and bounce off of the rev limiter, but it will not automatically upshift for you.

    About the beep. Let's say you are driving at 35 MPH and you are in 4th gear (display showing "4"). You nudge the shift lever towards "-" to downshift. You are now in 3rd gear (display showing "3") still going 35 MPH. You nudge the shift lever towards "-" again and you are now in 2nd gear (display showing "2"). Realistically your car would have slowed down with the engine braking, but we're gonna assume that you have your foot on the gas and are maintaining 35 MPH. In 2nd gear @ 35 MPH you're probably turning about 4000 RPMS...high, but still well within the capacity of second gear. Now, let's say you nudge the shift lever towards "-" one more time. In the Avalon the display will still indicate "2" and you will hear a "beep beep" notifying you that you are going too fast for a downshift to be made. If you slow down enough and nudge the shift lever towards "-" again the transmission will then downshift to first.

    That's all I was ever trying to say. In the Avalon, the transmission will never automatically upshift for you.
  • kwk1kwk1 Member Posts: 39
    "In the Avalon the display will still indicate "2" and you will hear a "beep beep" notifying you that you are going too fast for a downshift to be made. If you slow down enough and nudge the shift lever towards "-" again the transmission will then downshift to first."

    That's similar to a manual transmission.
    Only in a manual, you can rev up the engine and it will slip into first gear.
    Most auto trannys will upshift if you hold it too long.
    A shift kit enables you to hold any gear for any length of time or any rpm though.
  • billwfriendbillwfriend Member Posts: 44
    My lease is up on my 04 Odyssey in 4 short months, and I'm strongly considering either an 05 Five Hundred or 06 Impala (instead of the 05 Pacifica the wife wants - horrid mileage). I've got the wife, 2 young kids, and a dog to tote around (the dog not so often tho).

    I've seen 05 Five Hundres SE models (under 30k miles), and 06 Impalas LT1 (under 20k miles) both for $14k in my area.

    While the 500 is a little bigger, with a larger trunk, the Impala gets a little better milage, and is a yr newer in my price range.

    I've not driven either vehicle yet, and would like some opinions before I get new car (used car) fever!

    Thanks!
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    If you are going for the Impala, better get the V8. The V6 has absolutely no kick at all.
  • billwfriendbillwfriend Member Posts: 44
    I'll add some more detail... I don't need 'kick', as I'm not a teenybopper. I'd like a large sedan that my wife can sit in the rear seat, between 2 car seats, in a pinch. I'd like a truck large enough for a couple large suitcases and an assortment of smaller bags for vacations. I'd like decent mpg too.

    200 hp in any vehicle is enough. Not too long ago, 150 hp in a mid size car WAS the luxury.

    Thanks!
  • lakerunner4hlakerunner4h Member Posts: 37
    Get the Impala! I have a 2006 Five Hundred Limited that I'm attempting to trade right now. The Five Hundred is a very nice room car that cannot get out of it's own way. Merging onto a freeway or attempting a quick 2-lane pass are knuckle-whitening exercises. I'm no speed demon -- my prior vehicle was an '03 LeSabre. The LeSabre could get up and run away from this Ford.

    Looking at an '07 LTZ and '07 SS. Heart says SS; head says LTZ. We'll see which wins.
  • guestguest Member Posts: 770
    billwfriend: Don't forget about 2 "sleeper" cars. An 06 Ford Crown Vivtoria or Mercury Grand Marquis LS. You can buy either of these 2 Good Bets by Consumer Reports for between $13,495-$15,995, depending on how optioned with between 14-21K miles and still have the remaining 3 year/36K Mile Warranty. Friend has an 05 Grand Marquis--in the Ozark hills he gets 20+ MPG driving around and on trips 25+ MPG. Plenty of room and they seat 6. Prices I mentioned are before ya start dickering! Just a thought!
    Bob
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Don't forget about 2 "sleeper" cars. An 06 Ford Crown Vivtoria or Mercury Grand Marquis LS

    Sleepers?

    More like in a coma or vegetables...

    :P
  • guestguest Member Posts: 770
    Why hasn't anybody mention the Charger.I have a 06 Charger SXT and I would compare it to any of the vehicles you mention.It has a great ride ,tons of room,and power with the 3.5 with the 5 speed.Plus its not bland looking like the Ford or the Chevy.
  • bobwileybobwiley Member Posts: 241
    louiswei: Ever drove or owned one? The person was looking for a roomy, comfortable car that got good mileage. You can buy an 06 car that stickered for near $30K and is practically bullet proof for 1/2 the original price. What one year old used car costing $15K would you recommend that fulfills the persons needs?
    Bob
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    If in comfortable you meant a land yacht then yes the Crown Vic or the Grand Marquise are definitely your choice.

    Also, to answer your question, yes I have drove one before. To tell you what, before I drove one I thought my mom's Camry is soft, but boy, after driven a Crown Vic the Camry's like a 3-series compare to it.
  • guestguest Member Posts: 770
    louiswei: They are what they are--big, comfortable American sedans. My point was for a "VERY" resonable price you can have a year old car that fulfills the posters desire for room, comfort and very decent gas mileage. For me, I love our 06 Avalon Limited---superb choice for, comfort, room, mileage, resale value, ride, quiet etc.
    Bob
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