Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

celica8

According to Consumer Reports, the Buick Lucerne is rated higher than the Toyota Avalon.

As for buying American, yes, the Avalon is assembled here in the U-S, but all the planning and design, etc. is done in Japan, and the profits go to Japan.

The Lucerne is designed, tested, etc. in the U-S and built in Detroit/Hamtramck Michigan. Profits stay here in the U-S.

captain2

wrong, the Avalon was designed and engineered in California, almost all parts 95%+ are made in this country including obviously engines (Michigan) trannies (Va., I believe), steel etc etc. The Lucerne is one of the few remaining 'American' cars that may be as "American' as the Avalon.
Where does the money go - paying all those American workers, and something Buick doesn't do paying American taxes. Profits? Most of it, into building new plants etc so that Toyota can pay more American workers and pay even more taxes. Even Hyundai just spent $1 billion on a new plant in Alabama. The facts are, that right now, the Toyotas/Nissans/Hondas are contributing a whole lot more into our economies than GM/Ford/Chrysler can even make a dent in.

louiswei

Avalon is assembled here in the U-S, but all the planning and design, etc. is done in Japan

WRONG. Avalon is planned and designed here in the US by Toyota's North American design center.

captain2

According to Consumer Reports, the Buick Lucerne is rated higher than the Toyota Avalon

rated higher in what? The Avalon (along with the TL) is the highest rated sedan (89) ever tested by CR and remains so. It has also won every comparo I know of done by the enthusiast mags including both the LaCrosse and Lucerne, as well as many others.

reliability? - as per my previous post, doesn't surprise me - that's is the one benefit of 50 year old engines and antiquated designs in the Buicks.

plekto

You meant Lexus IS. The GS is in the same category as the E-class and STS.
***
No, I meant the GS. The IS is a souped-up Corolla and not even in the same class as a CTS(or any of the other Lexus models)

louiswei

No, I meant the GS. The IS is a souped-up Corolla

I am sorry, IS is definitely NOT a souped-up Corolla (FWD vs. RWD, 4 banger vs. 6 banger, 150 HP vs. 300 HP and $15K vs. $35K). Last time I checked, CTS is set to compete with the 3-series and C-class (note: NOT the 5-series) and that's in the same category as the IS.

Entry Lux Performance Sedan: 3er, C-class, IS, G, TL and CTS.
Midsize Lux Performance Sedan: 5er, E-class, GS, M, RL and STS.
Lux Sedan: 7er, S-class, LS, Q and "maybe" DTS (might be pushing it though).

plekto

The IS is a joke. Both built on a Corolla platform, so despite the bling and fancy engine and so on, it's still a small car. Stuffing a huge engine it the 350 isn't changing that fact anymore than Mercedes can ignore what a piece of junk the C class is for the money(the C230K they made for a while aside - it was priced right)

The CTS is anything but small. And it has way more power and room inside than the IS series. Better trim and seats as well. 255HP out of the 3.6 engine.

Toyota overcharges by at least 20% on all of their luxury lines, like Merdedes and BMW do, so basing it on price when the CTS isn't more than 35K loaded isn't quite fair, either.

Pull up a window on each:
http://www.edmunds.com/new/2006/lexus/gs300/100508673/specs.html

http://www.edmunds.com/new/2007/cadillac/cts/100717104/specs.html

Put them side-by side and gosh if they don't look really simmilar. Length, width, wheelbase, weight... it's all very slose to each other. But the CTS has more power, better torque curve, and it also turns tighter. I'm not making this up when I say that they are in the same segment.

Just - Lexus is pricing theirs for way more money.

CTS Sport(to be fair): $36,120 $33,772
GS 300 : $43,150 $37,971
And the CTS comes with most every option standard. I priced the Sport version to be fair, but the base CTS is about $30K - so loaded up, it's just at $35K.

CTS
3.6L V6 Luxury Package (w/o wheels) info $1,550 $1,287
5-Speed Automatic Transmission w/Driver Shift Control info $1,200 $996
Power Glass Sunroof w/Express Open info $1,200 $996
AM/FM Radio w/6-Disc In-Dash CD Changer info $1,000 $830
Split-Folding Rear Seat info $400 $332
(the others like fancy paint and engine block heater and so on aside - you have four main choices)

The GS300 has options galore - like making you pay for rain-sensing wipers, trunk mat, wheel locks, and alloy wheels(all standard on the Caddy). 45K is really easy to hit.

The CTS? 35K, because rebates are easy to get and they barely sell over invoice.

captain2

equating an IS with a Corolla - just because they are the same size??? By your way of thinking, we should all be buy cars by the pound, and should think that the best deals out there are things like Crown Vics and pickup trucks! And I guess that there would be nothing better than those depreciation hits you suffer on Caddys and Lincolns once they leave the showroom, equalizes those purchase price differences in a hurry.
You are, however, right about one thing - the CTS is not comparable to any Lexus!

imidazol97

Browsing CR recent copies at the library I thought I saw that Avalon had been lowered in CR's ratings. This was a picture and rectangular note on the bottom of a page--not a full review.

>the highest rated sedan (89)

And I love my 50 year old engine (I thought the redesign was in 1997 for the 3800, but you should know better) that gave me 36 mpg to and from the RCA Dome in Indy two times this weekend. Yup, Corolla 4 cyl stick mileage with V6 power and large car smoothness. And don't tell any of the fadists..., it has overhead valves!!!! Keep it a secret.

>50year old

And GM pays taxes in US. Toyota is a Japanese company. Guess where the money flow eventually ends after the gerrymandering of profit/loss of subsidiaries and captive suppliers.

louiswei

The IS is a joke. Both built on a Corolla platform

Dude, before posting some non-sense, do some googling. The IS is built on the same platform as the GS but a shortened version. The IS is RWD (like the GS) and Corolla is FWD, the two is not possibly to share platform.

Say whatever you want but the CTS is slotted to compete with the 3er, IS and G. Let me remind you the last time...that segment is called "Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedan".

captain2

imidazo - you know better than that (I hope). GM has lost billions in the last few years - US tax law allows those losses to be applied to any future years, if and when, they do make any profits. It will be a number of years before any GM Co. pays anything other than some real estate taxes. Besides which GM has been losing about $2500 on EVERY car they sell (or give away), there are no profits to pay taxes on, money for R&D, or even the money required to close more plants and/or move them to Canada, Mexico, China or wherever.
The Avalon, fyi, has never been rated higher than 'better than average' in CR reliability even going back into the 90s, and in terms of reliability it was downgraded to merely average in late 2005 - the Avalon, at that point, something unknown to the 'American' mfgrs. - a completely NEW car. From what I understand, the 06s etc. have been rerated back up which could be logically expected. If GM/Buick , for example, had the financial and engineering abilities to even try what Toyota did with the Avalon, the tow trucks (and 'black circles') would still be lined up solid between here and Flint, Mich.!
But be happy thinking that you are better supporting our great country buying that Buick, Chevy, Ford or whatever as opposed to one to those 'nasty' Toyotas, Hondas, Nissans - exactly the opposite is probably the truth!!!

tjc78

"Yup, Corolla 4 cyl stick mileage with V6 power and large car smoothness"

Last time I checked the Avalon gets better or the same mileage with about 70+ more HP and equal or better smoothness. Just for curiousity at what average speed did you achieve 36 MPG?? No way at anything above 65 MPH.

batista

The 3800 is nothing special. I dumped my 01 Impala because of intake manifold leaks and transmission problems. 200HP out of 3.8L sucks and you know it. So what if the fuel economy is 19/29 there are way better autos out there.
When accelerating the pushrod engine sounds like a vacuum cleaner and boy does it sound rough when pushed hard.

For me the deal breaker is no RWD. The Buick doesn't have it and neither does the Avalon. So I chose the Dodge Charger which allows me to accelerate without worrying about torque steer and better weight distribution of 52/48 versus a FWD car which has 62/38.

captain2

and you are absolutely right about a basic superiority in getting something close to 50/50 weight distribution. The Avalon has no noticeable torque steer, but will, of course understeer heavily at the limit as all FWD drive cars will.
Sure limits your choices in this category though.
The Avalon will easily outaccelerate your Charger (if its not the Hemi) and even a V8 Lucerne, not to mention FE that's not even close!

plekto

Check out a CTS. Less than 30K for one with the 3.6 engine is easily doable after rebates and a bit of haggling.

Used? Silly cheap - 18K asking price on a two year old model at the local dealer here in Pasadena, CA. Sure there's some wiggle-room in that figure as well.

255HP, VVT, engine that makes the 3800 look like the aging hunk of metal that it is, and it's RWD. The only thing is.. well, it's not a jellybean. Heh. That's good and bad - as most reviewers have said - it kind of grows on you. I think we are all used to seeing jellybeans and it looks odd at first

2007 CTS 3.6
Cars Direct:
Net Cost: $29,414 That includes delivery. $29,414 out the door. It just whomps on the competition at that price-point.

$31,964 with the 18 inch/high-end suspension option, rear folding seat, engine block heater, and whatever else I could reasonably throw in other than a sunroof(which leak and are is too far back to really be useable)

I see no reason to get an Avalon or Lucerne or simmilar with this costing a huge amount less and having about the same performance.

maximafan

Oh, Puhleez!!!!

maximafan

Look, I don't drive the IS, but, come on!!
The Corolla sure wishes it looks like the IS!

rpfingsten

Please allow me to throw in my 2 cents worth on the 3800 v-6. Around town or on a "flat" level highway, the 3800 is adequate... I just traded in an oldsmobile regency elite that had the 3800 in it and I have to tell you, whenever I would drive thru those hills in the Ozarks, that poor 197 hp engine was straining to the top of each and every hill..and not to mention the engine was so noisy that a friend of mine asked me if I had a diesel engine under the hood...gas mileage was fine, and the engine was dependable..hardly anything major wrong in almost 15 years of service, but god help you if you needed to get out of the way of an oncoming train or semi... the power just isnt there.

Roland

floridabob1

Many of these vehicles being compared are definitely not "large sedans"
I believe that the purpose of this thread was to compare Azera to similar sized and priced models.

pat

I was just getting ready to post something similar, thanks floridabob1.

The vehicles we are (supposed to be) comparing (across the board, not just to the Azera) in this discussion are those listed at the top of this page.

imidazol97

>hardly anything major wrong in almost 15 years of service

Your Oldsmobile was 15 years old. Did you check the exhaust manifold donuts for seal under load? That may have been giving some noise. I had replaced one on a 93 3800. While you may believe your engine was noisier than it should have been, I find mine 3800s are just fine.

>to get out of the way of an oncoming train or semi

I find I got out of the way of oncoming semis just fine in two recent trips to Indy last week.

>poor 197 hp

It's the torque output on a motor and at what speed it produces what torque that makes the car driveable (unless you're on a NASCAR track ). I used to hang on every 2 or 3 horsepower change in cars when I was younger; now I've realized how unimportant those changes were in the actual driving of the vehicles. Torque, transmission ratios, final drive gearing all are more important; horsepower makes nice advertising fodder for the unwashed.

floridabob1

RE: 326
I mentioned the comparison to Hyudai's because this is a thread of the Hyundai forum. No?

pat

It is linked to all of the boards of the vehicles listed above - it appears on all of them.

floridabob1

Re 328
My bad! I did not realize that.

plekto

That's why the 3.6 GM is offering in the upper-end LaCrosse and CXS is such a fantastic engine. No mush at the bottom end, plenty of torque, and it's quiet. It feels like the biggest darn VTEC you've ever driven.

The LaCrosse, though, has a low output version of it and FWD, plus looks like a jellybean. Pass. The Cadillac version of the same engine has more power, is RWD, and best of all, with stickshift, it's a very very fast car. 6 speed manual with 255HP and about as much torque is reminiscent of a 70s muscle-car.

And, it's under $30K by a few dollars, so it fits the criteria of this discussion :P

varob

Let me throw in my .02 about my 2005 Chrysler 300 Limited since so little has been written about it. I bought mine in August of 2004. The base price was around 26.5 K, and mine came loaded-up, so it's a bit over the 30K discussion limit. It has the 3.5 V-6, but forgive me, I don't know all the specs, etc., but I can tell you that it has plenty of spunk, gets reasonable gas mileage (19/27or so), and has been very reliable so far. I'm pushing 40K miles and just got back from a road trip from VA to FL and back, and the drive was very comfortable. There have been some issues with the 300C and the 5.7 Hemi engine, but my 3.5 V-6 has had no problems. The Continental tires that came on it were trash, but I replaced them with Goodyears and have had zero problems. Anyway, I just didn't want a discussion of large sedans to continue without some mention of the Chrysler 33.

floridabob1

RE; 331
Friend has an 06 300C Hemi and loves it.
He has had little or no problems and is getting same or better gas milage than me.
My wife refuses to drive the 300C because she feels as if it to big. I like the ride.

kdhspyder

And GM pays taxes in US. Toyota is a Japanese company. Guess where the money flow eventually ends after the gerrymandering of profit/loss of subsidiaries and captive suppliers.

In Texas, building the multi-$Billion truck facility. The Tundra launch will be a $5 Billion investment in the US alone. Thus the money eventually ends up back here. As opposed to GM for example where the money ends up developing facilities in China. Note that since GM only creates losses it pays no income taxes here. What positive cashflow it does have is redirected to Asia as it expands it's presence there.

pat

Let's get away from this topic and go back to comparing the cars listed above - we've really been wandering lately.

pat

No "bad" whatsoever. If you don't already know that we link discussions to all related boards, it's not obvious at all and lots of people think what you thought. I'm happy to have a chance to explain how that works for anyone who doesn't know. Generally speaking you can expect any comparo to be linked to all of the boards in the subject.

Carry on!