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Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

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Comments

  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    If you want to spend 20 or 30 grand more on a car to impress your neighbors, go right ahead

    To your logic buy a used Corolla and put the rest in the bank for the kids, vacation. Why spend even $16K on a car when you can spend $3K? Seems like theres a bit of the sentinment: Do as I say and not as I do.
  • autokritikerautokritiker Member Posts: 65
    While you´re at it, you might as well:

    Sell your home and squeeze your family into a 2 bedroom condo in the ghetto side of town. Sure, they may not be as safe there, nor as comfortable -- but think about it, you could save a cool $100,000+.

    (I think you see what I'm getting at)

    Bhmr, you made a valid point in that many people are willing to spend $20K to $30K more to show others they own a status symbol. Very few actually appreciate all the deep history and wonderful engineering that those cars are really supposed to be about.

    We all know why people buy a new (or newer) car instead of saving thousands on a cheap used car. Reliability. Safety. Comfort. Peace of mind.

    As for those who buy an Avalon vs a Camry, or a Maxima vs an Altima, or an Azera vs a Sonata, etc. These people are rightfully rewarding themselves by spending a couple thousand more, however their enjoyment is coming from the extra comfort and driving performance they and their passangers are enjoying; not from being seen by others.
  • cobrazeracobrazera Member Posts: 352
    Glad you're enjoying your 300C, it is a unique and nicely styled vehicle.
    IMO, your 300C and the upcoming Pontiac G8 will be the real sales competitors
    ( at least in the USA market ) for the Hyundai Genesis - not BMW, Mercedes, et al.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "Bhmr, you made a valid point in that many people are willing to spend $20K to $30K more to show others they own a status symbol"

    Really? You think an opinion of how someone else spends their money is really valid? Interesting. You have a magical line in the sand where you decide cars are bought for status and the world should bow to your magical number? Any car bought below the number is for utility, but above the number is status? :confuse
  • sassy1866sassy1866 Member Posts: 6
    I think the thing to consider as well about Hyundai is resale value. When I needed a new car I did consider the Hyundai, but what scared me off what the quality and resale value. Ended up with a Honda and have had no problems with it. So if I'm spending 30k plus on a car I want to know I'll get decent resale value on it. This is why people are more apt to consider and pay more for a Honda, Toyota, BMW, etc. I love the look of the Genesis and think it would be fantastic to have, but still cannot bring myself to buy a Hyundai.
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Member Posts: 1,602
    Read the ENTIRE quote I was referring to. It was about spending $20-30K for the purpose of impressing one's neighbors.

    The quote was not about spending more money to get what the poster thought was a better car, and my reply was not about saving money by buying a POS. The whole point was about spending the extra money (make it $5K, make it $50K, I don't care) to try to impress someone else.

    But we all have different sets of values. For those lacking self -esteem, if (hopefully) impressing the neighbor by buying a particular car builds up their ego, then, as I said, "go right ahead."
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Read the ENTIRE quote I was referring to. It was about spending $20-30K for the purpose of impressing one's neighbors.

    That was the whole point. If my neighbor actually admitted he/she paid $70K for this LS460 ( as an example) to impress me, I wouldn't believe it and would laugh in his face. So who has actually admitted to you they bought an expensive (name your own expensive item) to impress you? Even if they did do so for that specific reason, as I didn't give them the money I wouldn't care. The Lexus dealer is probably happy though.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    There is nothing to worry about quality, and I say this with confidence. If you have had a chance checking out the current Hyundais, the quality matches/exceed others in the class. I have been test driving the Veracruz for a few weeks now and I still don't want to get out from the car at the end of the day :-) Still, you don't take my words for it, ask current owners, read the reviews, awards (i.e. CR, JDPower, AutoPacific), or better it, find out yourself about the quality. I don't think you'd be disappointed.

    Resale value, on the other hand, is still a drawback but to be fair, it has improved quite a bit due to the other areas of dramatic improvements from Hyundai, including perceptions.

    A lot of people are coming around on the brand but you just gave us a good example why Hyundai has to continue producing quality automobile, and convincing others to put Hyundai on the shopping list in the first place, regardless of the final decision.

    New news:

    So I checked out the Lexicon discrete audio system. Absolutely fantastic!! It will be in the Hyundai Genesis (currently in the Rolls-Royce Phantom). The Hyundai-equipped is a logic 7 system, with 17 speakers, 7.1 channels, 2 three-way and 5 two-way transducer, and balanced equalization for driver and passengers.
  • alexstorealexstore Member Posts: 264
    in a straight line yes, but once we hit curves, I will be kissing his tail lights.
  • coolrunningcoolrunning Member Posts: 117
    Thanks. I completely agree with you. German cars had earned a reputation for high performance, reliability and uniqueness in decades past when compared to any American car. It appears that the American cars have met and in many cases exceeded the marks set by the German cars in recent years. Curiously, close friends of mine who regularly have the "Beemer" in the shop still swear by them and wouldn't have anything else. My Chryslers have been in the shop once each in the last two years, each for the same petty o-ring replacement to stop a tiny transmission oil drip. They are equipped with Mercedes 5-speed automatics! Overall, I think ALL car manufacturers are building better cars than ever before simply because they have better technology and designs to work with. It is to our benefit as consumers, but it still makes it difficult to choose from perhaps 400 different models available in the world. It all depends on what you intend to use the car for and how much you are willing to pay to get what you need or want. :D
  • riker2riker2 Member Posts: 36
    I bought a loaded 300C literally the week they hit dealerships. I was excited about the design, the engine and the over-the-topness of the whole package. I've been perfectly happy with it for 50,000 miles. But when you live with a car for a number of years and know it inside and out, the love affair fades.

    There isn't a place in the 300C - engine aside - where you can't see the budgeting that made its production possible. From the wide gap between the hood and grill where DCX couldn't solve manufacturing issues to the spartan interior with hard plastic and fake metallic accents, the big beautiful car became a bit tiresome after a year.

    It's really a faux luxury sedan. It makes a great first impression, and delivers the speed and some of the agility you want, but then comes the wind noise, suspension creaks and unwanted rattles.

    What makes the Genesis intriguing is that it apparently delivers not only a RWD sedan with a 368 hp V8. It also provides a complete list of available content that matches a genuine luxury vehicle. It used to be that new Hyundai's looked like 4 year old versions of other makers with less content than consumers wanted.

    The new Genesis looks like an amalgam of CURRENT models, with no stinting on content. If a loaded Genesis can be had for less that 43K, there seems to be a very good argument for a test-drive when it hits the market. That's not to say that I won't end up buying an Infiniti M45, which I've tested twice and plan to purchase some time this year. But I am going to wait until the Hyundai comes out and see if it delivers what looks very impressive on paper.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "But when you live with a car for a number of years and know it inside and out, the love affair fades."

    That was not the case with my BMW. The love affair never faded. Luxury and high quality touches were the order of the day. Reliability and excellent customer satisfaction were the order of the day. Until the day I got rid of it the love affair continued.

    It is true after a while, I took the superb balanced handling for granted...that is until I drove another car and tried to drive it the same way.

    Point is, no matter what you car own the love affair doesn't really have to end after the honeymoon is over.
  • riker2riker2 Member Posts: 36
    "That was not the case with my BMW. The love affair never faded."

    I agree completely. The 300C has been a fun car, but its limitations became clear after living with it for a while. That's the curse of many "near luxury" cars. They can be a great value, but the compromise can be a lot of little sacrifices in comfort or performance.

    The CTS seems have addressed this issue well. If the Genesis has a good driving dynamic to back up its long content list, it will certainly be entertaining at a price that no other premium sedan can match.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    dying to know - how you can extrapolate overall FE on a 'test drive'. 1000 mile, 3 tank test drives - in both cars? CR has the Avalon at 22 and the Azera at 19 - the Genesis has more power, pounds and is also RWD all of which should serve to hurt FE - which is why I 'guess' (as I said in that post) 4-5 mpg. Hyundai or any mfgr can 'claim' whatever they want but the fact remains, Hyundai's cars have historically been on the low end of the FE totem poles - a combination of building relatively heavy vehicles along with comparatively 'simple' engines (and not just the V6s).
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    . let me say I believe in buying American
    Well, at least the Brand name sounds like its 'American', and the 'concept' of the car (a big ole V8 sedan) is definitely 'American' - with a dose of that good old fashioned German engineering. Maybe I missed something, did we recently annex Canada?
  • colloquorcolloquor Member Posts: 482
    Remember, impressing people, your neighbors, and others is the American way. Drive more car than you can really afford, buy large homes that you really can't afford . . . again, it's the American way. The latter is the cause of much of the sub-prime mortgage mess.

    Without ego, there is no need for many vehicles on the top end of the market. Let's face it, many people in this country spend much of their time and money trying to impress people, rather than spending time and money on more important and less narcissistic endeavors. Those who may buy a Genesis most likely care more about impressing themselves, and not others. Kudos to them . . .
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Without ego, there is no need for many vehicles on the top end of the market

    My friend, that is called capitalism. You must be referring to some other planet where people buy a Genesis because they want a truly great sedan, but the buy a BMW (or other vehicle) only to impress.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    Well, all MPGs advertised are based on EPA ratings. Real life figures vary depending on a lot of factors but my colleagues and I have logged over 15K miles in both, and our results came very close between the two. Again, real life figures vary much which is why I posted EPA figures for comparison.

    Low-end as a fact? Hyundai's bread-and-butter Sonata has very impressive MPG compared to others in the class. Similarly, the rest of the fleet boasts respective, better than average mpg.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    I think I read it somewhere a fully loaded Genesis V8 will not go over 40K. We'll see how things shape up when pricing is released. Should be in showroom early this summer.
  • autokritikerautokritiker Member Posts: 65
    All we can do at this point, really, is guess. In reality, the Genesis 3.8L is only 119 lbs heavier than the Azera. All Genesis models will have a 6spd auto transmission (Aisin for V6's, ZF for V8). The Genesis models have the "2nd generation" Lambda V6 engines, which are both more powerful and more fuel efficient (power and efficiency usually go hand-in-hand, given the same displacement). My guess, based on the spec sheets, is that the Genesis 3.8L will have the same overall fuel economy, if not slightly better than the current Azera. You'd think, logically, the '09 Azera models will get the 2nd generation Lambda engines, as well as the Aisin 6spd. I guess we'll see on that one too.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 16,942
    "I think I read it somewhere a fully loaded Genesis V8 will not go over 40K"

    On paper that seems like a great thing. We need to see production models put up against other vehicles to see for sure. If they are selling this vehicle at this pricing, something somewhere had to give. What it is, we all don't know yet. Is is the suspension, the FE (hand in hand with engine delvelopment and weight issues), interior quality? Or... is Hyundai selling this car at very low profit (even at a small loss) to help launch something greater? I just look at the prices of the Avalon, Lucerne and 300 and think how much money are they making?

    2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic

  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Nope...it was a Murcielago.

    You're right, the premium is supposed to come with a lot you don't see. However, most that buy for status are superficial anyway. Like I said, they'll see the fact that a "lesser" vehicle is giving them some go and get under their skin. So, no...I'm not missing the point at all.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Which, when you're talking about all out speed, a straight line is what is being discussed.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "So, no...I'm not missing the point at all."

    Actually I believe you are. If you are type who believes you have the fastest car on the block it will annoy you when any car bests you. How do you think RS4 supporters feel about the 335i meeting or exceed the performance of a car costing twice as much?
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    I'll guess that Hyundai, in order to sell the vehicle in decent numbers will have to either overprice the car and then float big discounts (ala Buick) or simply float 15-20% initially. The Hyundai buyer (like the 'American' car buyer) -and unlike the 'Japanese' car buyer- EXPECTS this, an unfortunate by-product of selling their products on the cheap for years and years. Even if the market accepts a $40k sticker on the Genesis, Hyundai had better be prepared to sell it for $35k or so.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    I know some of you guys have voiced earlier, when we first saw the images of the NA-spec Genesis that there should be a Hyundai badge on the grille, well your wish may be granted.

    At NAIAS, there are two variations of Genesis on display. One as is to the press images, no badge on grille nor wheels; there was another one, slightly different front, different grille execution, and Hyundai emblems on the badge and wheels.

    There is a decision to be made, either one or two, or both.

    Personally, I like the more aggressive badge-less grille.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 16,942
    If I was a betting man I would think you are going to see the one with the "H".

    2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic

  • alexstorealexstore Member Posts: 264
    OK enough about Genesys. Lets talk about 2009 Maxima.
    1)first car on this forum with diesel engine ( displacement and specs unknown)
    2) 270+ hp
    3) 3.5 or 3.7 L engine
    4) about 18-28 mpg- gas engine FE
    5) is there possibility of AWD?
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    The point that I've been making all along, how do you figure I missed it when you just validated it? We're saying the same thing, just saying it differently.
  • jaymagicjaymagic Member Posts: 309
    Let's talk about a diesel. I rented a Volvo S 90 diesel in Germany a couple of years ago. It was unbelievable. Really great mileage and more than decent go power, even with 4 people and luggage. Ran a steady 130 on the autobahn with no problems.

    I can only hope that in the next few years, the newer generations of diesels are an option. (Of course, unlike the US, diesel fuel is less than gas in Europe). I probably would not want a Maxima (no offense, just not my cup of tea), but who knows, for the right price I would certainly consider it.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    alex- as a fellow Nissan addict I too look forward to Nissan's product developments and further regard the 08 Maxima as a big improvement over the 07- the exterior and interior designs seem a whole lot better. What I don't understand is Nissan's apparent total commitment to the CVT, IMO a disconcerting car to drive, in something that is supposed to be on the 'sporting' side of things. If they do come out with a diesel it should represent some new highs in fuel efficiency, but in combination with the CVT, it may also mean the ultimate in a transportation 'appliance' - something that Nissan products have never been. The new top rated Altima appears good enough to carry the whole line right now, it would be great if Nissan got a little more innovative with the Maxima.
  • alexstorealexstore Member Posts: 264
    I agree though my maxima is down 15 HP compared with New Altima which is also lighter it beats it in 0-60 and doesn't gain much in FE. Only 1 MPG.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Well...Nissan needs a car to fill the void between Nissan and Infiniti in the full-size segment. I mean, you can choose between the 370Z or the G37, after that...there's a huge void between the Altima and the M.

    I mean...Toyota has the Avalon to the point where if one just wants the status of having a Lexus, but really likes what the Avalon has...you can get an ES. If the name doesn't mean a hill of beans to you, then you can get the Avalon and not feel like you're missing anything.

    I agree Captain, Nissan should be innovative with the new Maxima, truly make it the flagship of their entire line-up, it's not like they're not capable of doing so.
  • tonycdtonycd Member Posts: 223
    As the owner of an older Maxima, I'm turned off by the recent editions. I agree the '08 is a significant step forward from the '07, but it remains an outdated, torque-steering beast with some odd interior details. Not that Consumer Reports is the end-all of automotive analysis, but they go so far as to say the Altima's mechanicals beat the Max in significant ways -- which figures, since the current Maxima is built off the previous Altima.

    I'm sure the next Maxima will be off the newer Altima chassis, and that will help a lot. What I'd like to see atop that chassis is an interior more like an Azera and less like an Altima. In my Altima service loaners, I've seen enough hollow plastic/cardboard topped with elephant-gray fuzz to last me a lifetime.
  • alexstorealexstore Member Posts: 264
    wow strange I have to agree with you, but price wise maxima is in the same basic range as G
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    LOL It happens from time to time!

    Where do you see the pricing starting on the Maxima? The reason I ask, a fully loaded, top of the line Altima will top out over $30K. Maybe start it off around the upper $20K's and fully loaded, top of the line model will set you back close to $40K. That's putting it in the price range of the Hyundai Genesis really!!!

    I know the Maxima now is in the same price range as the G, but in car comparison...you would go from the Altima to the G. In terms of sedans, one would think that you SHOULD go from the Maxima to the M. That being the case, Nissan needs to really step it up to fill that gap.
  • cdmuilecdmuile Member Posts: 152
    Yeah, Nissan's CVT is definitely unusual. We recently replaced our CRV with a Rogue. I drive it with the shifter to the side and use the paddles to choose which of the five "speeds" I want. It works pretty slick. My wife leaves it in drive and is happy. I suspect the Maxima's larger engine would greatly change the feel of the CVT. Just a guess.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 16,942
    "What I don't understand is Nissan's apparent total commitment to the CVT"

    That is a mystery to me as well. I can't stand these CVT transmissions. Its even worse in an underpowered car, like when the 500 had it.

    2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic

  • alexstorealexstore Member Posts: 264
    if GTR now uses a 6 speed, may be cheaper version will reach MAxima. BTW GTR's AWD can be adopted to MAxima . NIssan Says that 3.8 is not a larger displacement of VQ. Well I am happy with VQ all I want is 300-320 Max with AWD to get away from torque steer.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    given the ultra high (480hp) performance GTR, would like to see Nissan adopt a DSG type tranny that is currently being used in some hi-per German/Italian cars. This is an automated clutch 'manual' tranny that will even 'blip' into downshifts etc. and is apparently also pretty fuel efficient - like the CVT and a true MT. Would be unique in this class and likely also leave in much of the driving 'fun'.
    Don't believe that AWD, in itself, is a solution to torque steer problems because AWD vehicles that are FWD biased (or FWD to start with) will normally route 90%+ of power to the front wheels anyway. You only get a power split to the rear wheels only in the event of loss of traction and TS is more a condition of too much traction. A more effective approach seems to be in what Acura is doing with the 286hp TL-S - electronically limiting throttle engagement when the front wheels are turned or Toyota's approach thru transmission gear selection. In any event, expect Nissan to do something to 'eliminate' TS in its luxury flagship - although increasing the HP (something they can easily do, VQ or not) will likely make it more difficult to do.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 16,942
    "all I want is 300-320 Max with AWD to get away from torque steer"

    I thought the Max was going RWD. Did I miss something? AWD that is FWD biased won't help things all that much in the torque steer department.

    2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic

  • coolrunningcoolrunning Member Posts: 117
    True, thanks to NAFTA, the Chrysler 300C HEMI engine is produced in Mexico, the Mercedes transmission is produced in Germany and the car is asembled in Canada. But, last time I checked, there are no "Canadian" cars on the market. Much like the Japanese cars built all over the United States, the cars are still Japanese cars. Japan has not annexed the USA...
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    let's assume that the 300 assembly plant employs and couple of thousand workers being paid an average of $40k/year. Exactly how many times do you suppose that $800 million can be spent - to pay local taxes, to build schools etc. etc. - all to the benefit of the Canadian economy. Or. as you say, the Mexican and German economies. Furthermore a company like Chrysler that has shown such a fine ability to lose beaucoups of money will NOT be paying any semblance of corporate income taxes for years and probably not ever.
    Compare that now to a co. like Toyota and car like the Avalon where those workers do get paid in American dollars, do pay American taxes, and do support local economies all over the country because that's also where most of the parts come from.
    Now I can't help you if you simply have a problem with names ending in a vowel (or don't understand some relatively simple economics) - but if you want to buy a car that is truly doing something to keep Americans off of welfare - you probably don't want to buy a Chrysler 300- that Canadian/German/Mexican car with an American name.
  • coolrunningcoolrunning Member Posts: 117
    Wow! I thought I was just buying a car! I had no idea I was supposed to balance the trade deficits and keep Americans off welfare too. The only reason there are so many japanese car factories operating in the USA these days is to keep them from being considered "imports". Not out of the goodness of the Japanese businessmen's hearts. They would much prefer to build them in Japan and sell them here, but there are limits on how many they can flood our market with. There is nothing simple about economics, but it is easy to assume anything you want. I doubt anyone (including you) ever considers the effect of your next car purchase will have on the world economies. People just want the best car they can get for the money. Try to stay in focus.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    thought the Max was going RWD
    don't believe there is anything out to confirm or deny this - maybe just some wishful thinking given that Nissan already has what it needs to do this in the Infiniti Gs and Ms. It may come down to that RWD Maxima poaching sales from those higher profit Infinitis - much like a RWD Avalon would likely rob from the LS. Like you I guess I can't imagine 300hp+ in a FWD car - even GM seems to have learned this in abandoning the Impala SS in favor of the Aussie RWD model. But, if they do (come out with the RWD Max) put me in line, for sure ;)
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    you're the one that said that it is important to you to buy 'American', did you not? - all I'm doing is explaining that you really didn't. But you are right - we should also consider what we all believe to be the car we want, and we all have different motivations. And yes, the fact that the Avalon IS about as much as an 'American' car as you can buy these days makes a lot of difference to me!
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    The only reason there are so many japanese car factories operating in the USA these days is to keep them from being considered "imports
    Yes and no, while we have started to have things like import tariffs and local content laws (as many other countries do) this is NOT the real reason. The real reason is because the American dollar is weak and Toyota, in this case, found out that it can make more MONEY building cars in Kentucky (or wherever) and minimizing te effect of the the 'fortunes' of the dollar . Ditto for Honda, Nissan, Hyundai, BMW, MB etc etc. Likewise, Chrysler (and GM/Ford) found out they can LOSE LESS money by abandoning this country. So they (those nasty 'foreign' cos.) all invest literally billions building plants etc. HERE and employing bunches and bunches of REAL Americans. . This is an ultimate justification (money) for any business decision and is also the reason why those 'American' Cos. aren't really 'American' anymore.
  • cobrazeracobrazera Member Posts: 352
    A more effective approach seems to be in what Acura is doing with the 286hp TL-S - electronically limiting throttle engagement when the front wheels are turned or Toyota's approach thru transmission gear selection.
    In typical GM fashion ( fix it, but make it cheap ), the torque steer on the V8 powered Pontiac Grand Prix was reduced by gearing it taller than the similar Chevy Impala - how's about 100MPH in 2nd gear?
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 16,942
    "It may come down to that RWD Maxima poaching sales from those higher profit Infinitis -"

    You may be right on that. A loaded up RWD Max would certainly hurt the "G". You would be getting many similar features, power, etc, but in a much larger package. Might not be what everyone wants, but, for some exactly what the doctor ordered.

    2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic

  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    and like the top gear in the 3.8s for years - such things also meant to maximize FE often at the expense of drivabililty? What you talk about holding perhaps higher than necessary gears at lower speeds best summarizes Toyota's approach as well which eventually creates a problems with delays in multiple gear downshifts on reapplying throttle Something that is getting common as these mfgr. chase those coveted mpgs and Toyota is taking a fall (of sorts) for. I think in the GP V8 they also monkeyed around with increasing tire and wheel sizing for the fronts as well - it supposedly works to some extent but as you say a cheap 'fix' - you can't ultimately change the laws of physics.
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