Did you recently take on (or consider) a loan of 84 months or longer on a car purchase?
A reporter would like to speak with you about your experience; please reach out to PR@Edmunds.com by 7/22 for details.
Options

Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

18990929495134

Comments

  • alexstorealexstore Member Posts: 264
    Not Just G, but it will hurt M35 which is basically RWD/AWD Maxima with Luxury Badge
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 16,942
    As far as I know the current Maxima and the M share nothing but the VQ engine. Completely different cars. Now, if the Max does go RWD that would be a different story as I would think Nissan would steal the underpinning from the M (which is really just a stretched G right?)

    2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic

  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    completely different cars certainly, but the M uses a stretched/shrunk and otherwise modified 'FM' platform just like most of the other Nissan products - the AWD/RWD G, FWD Altima, current FWD Maxima, FWD/AWD Murano/FX etc as well as even the RWD 350Z - and as would (I assume) a RWD/AWD? Maxima. Nissan has been a champion of platform (and engine) sharing for a number of years now (the 02 Altima) and largely because of this is supposed to have one of the 'most profitable' product lines of all. All mfgrs. do this to some degree - it's just that some are better at it than others. I would guess that even Toyota/Honda might be a little jealous of the Nissan product line, it turned an entire company around that was in some financial difficulty not that long ago. Chrysler/Ford/GM could learn something .....
  • alexstorealexstore Member Posts: 264
    btw also stock Tires are same
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 16,942
    I stand corrected then! ;)

    2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic

  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 16,942
    "but the M uses a stretched/shrunk and otherwise modified 'FM' platform just like most of the other Nissan products "

    Didn't know that, I thoguht the RWD and FWD were two different platforms. And I thought Yota was good at making the same car 12 ways!

    2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic

  • alexstorealexstore Member Posts: 264
    it saves them ton of $$ to use same platform on many vehicles. so if Maxima offers rwd or AWD it will simply steal sales from M unless they use 3.5 in max and 3.7 in M and rate Max 280-295 hp and M 315-325.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    "It's a symbol of power. Of fresh life. A new beginning.

    Hyundai Genesis, it all starts here."

    Phase 1 internet marketing concurrent with the Detroit auto show (debut site). The ads are on Emdunds, for example.
  • danb315danb315 Member Posts: 3
    i popped my hood yesterday in my 2007 dodge charger and ran the engine, all the while i was hearing a constant clicking noise, i wasnt sure if that was normal or if my fan was lose or what?
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Looks like you found the best place for your question. Good luck - hope we can help. danb315, "Dodge Charger Routine Care & Maintenance" #34, 20 Jan 2008 8:10 am.
  • goldsuvgoldsuv Member Posts: 51
    They are on different platforms with different type front suspensions (strut vs multi-link) See http://www.autofieldguide.com/articles/070401.html
    The 2007 Altima and 2009 Murano are now on a new D platform.
  • smithedsmithed Member Posts: 444
    "True, thanks to NAFTA, the Chrysler 300C HEMI engine is produced in Mexico, the Mercedes transmission is produced in Germany and the car is asembled in Canada."

    My 300C has the Mercedes designed transmission, but it was built in the Kokomo, Indiana plant. The MDS HEMI is built in Mexico

    The sheet metal stampings are made in Michigan by US of Aians, and most of the parts suppliers are US of A companies.

    All those things must be taken into account. Plus having a plant in Mexico keeps some of those folks employed South of the Border. ;)

    Besides, wifey and I like it. :shades:
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Just came from the 2008 Washington DC Auto Show and saw the very nice...Licoln MKS. Saw it at the car show 2 years ago as a concept. They seemed to have actually kept it very close in design.

    It's a sedan that looks like it would belong in the same class as the Genesis and the G8, however...the one thing it'll be lacking (at this point) is available V-8 powerplant. According to the brochure I picked up...270 hp Duratec V-6. It'll have a host of features that a luxury car should have. The kicker is...the FWD base price starts out just over $37K, the AWD variant starts out just over $39K. I put one together on line and with the ultimage package which gives you all the bells and whistles, added addaptive cruise control and 20" wheel package...it priced out just over $48K!!!

    Also, this in too...stopped by the Hyundai section and they had a Genesis on display. It was getting quite a bit of attention as well. The one on display was a very nice shade of red with a brown leather interior. The grille was the non-"H" version (don't know if this will be production version). According to the representative, the Genesis will be hitting show rooms this summer.

    imageSee more Car Pictures at CarSpace.com
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    the MKS is a rebadged Taurus/500 TMK and does use the Ford 3.5 (for the power) - an engine that is still not quite up to snuff - if you believe what CR (and others) say about it. Though it seems that Lincoln is starting to come back to earth with their prices, it still will be a $40k+ FWD (or FWD biased) car that depreciates at a hellatious rate. Lincoln is supposed to be an alternative to Cadillac, not just some gingerbread added to existing Ford products. GM's Cadillac (CTS and STS) does offer something for the extra money, Lincoln did have the LS, now what do they have?
    The Genesis, I'm guessing, will be looked at by those same folks that would consider a G8 or 300C, will probably be a few grand more money for which the buyer will get a higher level of 'fru-fru'. Whether it sells or not is a different story.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    The kicker is...the FWD base price starts out just over $37K, the AWD variant starts out just over $39K
    and you would rather have one of these - instead of a full boat Avalon Limited at $35k? Or an Azera Ltd. or even a Taurus Ltd. at several thousand less than that? I think Lincoln has lost much of its high-end image by offering a mixture of rebadged Ford products (Fusions/Edges/Blackwoods/ Navigators etc etc.) and nothing really unique to the Lincoln brand. Not that GM/Caddy hasn't been known to do the same thing - the DTS/Lucerne come to mind, but at least there are some products out there that are different (and arguably justiying the extra money) . If we accept your contention that this car might be an addition to this 'mainstream' group, aren't we then accepting the Caddy DTS in the group as well? It is, after all, a rebadged Lucerne (or vice versa).
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Actually Captain, this is one time you are incorrect...the MKS is not using the 3.5, but rather a 3.7. The fact that it's kicking out 270 hp, would seem to be "up to snuff" to me. I got to see it up close and it's definitely not a Taurus with extra padding, it really is nicely appointed.

    I can actually see the Genesis stealing sales away from the MKS simply because you'll be getting all the same stuff (sans auto high beams and heated rear seats), but more power for about $6000 less. The base price of the FWD MKS starts where the fully loaded top of the line V-8 Genesis starts.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    I wasn't saying I would rather have an MKS, I was just reporting my findings at the car show. I figured since the car itself met the criteria for this particular forum, I would post it. Personally...I can't see spending that kind of money, especially on a fancy Ford product.

    I mean...what is the limit on th criteria for "Mainstream"? When this forum first started, it carried a title of 'Large sedans for under $35K'. Why it got changed to just say 'Mainstream Large Sedans Comparo', not sure. So...to be honest, I don't know why the DTS wouldn't be included now.

    I guess for a comparison standpoint, we could easily see how you can get everything that's on a $40K car for thousands less by going with an Avalon, Azera, Maxima, etc.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 16,942
    Not to put words in anyone's mouth, but I believe the comment about Ford's 3.5 not being up to snuff is in the NVH department. CR continues to knock the engine in the Edge and MKZ for those reasons. Power wise it is right there with all the other 3.5s

    On another note, anyone notice that on Hyundai's website there is no mention of the Genesis being available with V6s, Hmmm....

    2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic

  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    I believe the 3.7 is really not much more than a 'bored/stroked' 3.5 - much like (I think) the 3.5 and the 3.0 are related. 270 hp, in that case, is not all that much considering the 3.5 is right about there already and also considering that the MKS should logically get very close to 2 tons (with the extra options). One that basis it should be no quicker than an Avalon/Azera/Maxima etc. and probably use a lot more gas in the process - read the CR tests of the Taurus. They suggest that the 3.5 has many of the same 'problems'; as the 3.0 - lack of 'refinement' and dubious FE. My guess would be that Ford might have enough money to do something simple to engines to get the HP 'competitive' but doesn't have the wherewithall to develop completely new (and more efficient) engines. Don't really understand what the MKS is supposed to replace anyway - the Town Car? If that's the case, we'd sure have a bunch of disgruntled cabbies!
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    You may be right in that respect, but the 270 ponies is definitely an upgrade from the 260 that's in the Taurus. Maybe, what should have been in the Taurus instead of the 3.5.

    I think the problem Lincoln will face is there's a huge gap between the Taurus and the MKS. I mean...a fully loaded Taurus my sell for just over $30K (MSRP), but we all know that one can be purchased for under $30K. According to the Lincoln site where I build the MKS up...it started at $37 and when I was done loading it up...the price was over $45K.

    In my opinion, Lincoln should have priced it starting out at just over $30K and offered a V-8 variant to take it up to and over the $40K mark it hits now.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    can actually see the Genesis stealing sales away from the MKS

    you really think that someboy willing to pay the extra 10-15 grand to have a "Lincoln" is really going to be interested in something called a 'Hyundai'? I don't. Although I believe that Lincoln is losing its mystique, I also think it still is generally thought of as an 'expensive' (and perhaps overpriced) 'luxury' car that's best bought a year or two old.
    The Lincoln shopper at a Hyundai dealership? Not quite as far fetched as that BMW/MB shopper feeling that way, but close.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    IMO the Lincoln should not be 'based' on the Taurus at all but rather the Volvo S80, AWD, and puttiing out 280hp with a 6 cylinder and also available with the Yamaha V8 at over 300 hp. Put those engines in the MKS then we have the differentiation and some justification for the extra dollars.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Who said they would be "willing" to pay it if they see a better option available? You're always quick to say that folks won't take a look at the Genesis, just because it's a Hyundai.

    There's a lot you don't believe, but when you actually see it for yourself, then you'll believe. I for one, have witnessed it first hand. So...whether you're talking BMW, MB, Infinti, Lexus...don't think for a minute that you won't find someone shopping the likes of them, looking at a Hyundai. A perfect example, a guy pulled up in an S500, walks in and says he's interested in looking at the Azera. Said he wanted something that was still nice, but didn't want to spend a whole lot. He further added that he wanted to keep the Benz in the garage till the weekends and wanted a nice daily driver. Go figure...he could have opted for a smaller C-Class if that were the case, but he didn't. Something brought him in to look at, of all things, a Hyundai!!!! Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...stop contemplating what the car buying public will think. Not everyone thinks like you, a self professed car nut that is closed minded to an awful lot.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    IMO the Lincoln should not be 'based' on the Taurus at all but rather the Volvo S80, AWD, and puttiing out 280hp with a 6 cylinder and also available with the Yamaha V8 at over 300 hp. Put those engines in the MKS then we have the differentiation and some justification for the extra dollars.

    I agree with you wholeheartedly here!!! With the version they are planning on putting out now, it should be starting out at just above $30K and topping out in the mid to high $30K's. One thing I will give them...they are dumping some technology in the MKS.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    A perfect example, a guy pulled up in an S500, walks in and says he's interested in looking at the Azera. Said he wanted something that was still nice, but didn't want to spend a whole lot.

    How often does that happen again? Likely once a month? Or is it more like once in a sales person's lifetime?

    Hey, you are right, things happened so I am pretty sure there is gotta be someone pulled up in a S-class and walks in to buy an Azera. However, if Hyundai is banking on those people to sell the Genesis they might as well pack up the car and ship it back to Korea.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    don't think for a minute that you won't find someone shopping the likes of them, looking at a Hyundai.
    You right - I won't think this way for a minute - only a few years perhaps OR whatever time it takes Hyundai to change its reputation. ;)
    THIS, more than anything else is probably the reason why the Azera doesn't sell better. The autobuyer is NOT ready for a $30k Hyundai, never mind a $40k one.
  • tonycdtonycd Member Posts: 223
    The Lincoln IS based on the Volve S80. The previous one, just as the Taurus is. That's why the Taurus crash-tests so well.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    of course it is - as was the 500 - what I was really talking about is how Ford ought to differentiate the MKS by using the 'Volvo' powertrains INSTEAD of using the 3.5/3.7 DTs or whatever.
  • alexstorealexstore Member Posts: 264
    We have a guy at my work, who swapped MB S-500 4matic with AMG package for a v6 Sonata, but he is still jealous of my Maxima
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    If he was jealous of your Maxima why wouldn't he get one? He could get three for the price of a 4Matic S500.
  • alexstorealexstore Member Posts: 264
    His response:
    Sonata is smaller and also offers slightly better FE.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    If he was jealous of your Maxima why wouldn't he get one? He could get three for the price of a 4Matic S500.

    Good question.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    the poor man may have lost his job - or it may have really bothered him that the maintainence tab on the S500 was more than what his entire payment is on the Sonata. ;) Who knows - but certainly a difference in driving a relative appliance vs. driving a REAL car.
    PS - yes, all the cars in this group are relative appliances when it comes down to 'comparisons' like this because this is no comparison. :P And while this guy may be happy with his Sonata, I would bet you that he also would be the first to tell you the same thing.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Does it really matter? It happens...go figure.

    Never said that Hyundai was banking on that. Like I've said and still say...Hyundai is offering a bit of luxury to those that want something like an Infiniti, Benz or Beemer and can't afford it. I guess you can call it blue-collar luxury!
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Maybe, the realistic answer was he couldn't afford the S500 anymore and that's why he ended up in a Sonata. I can think of other cars he could have gotten if he was looking for fuel economy and a Maxima wouldn't have been a huge stretch for him having dropped the S500. Sounds to me the like the reality of paying for maintenance on that S500 bit him in the butt!
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I can think of other cars he could have gotten if he was looking for fuel economy and a Maxima wouldn't have been a huge stretch for him having dropped the S500.

    That's what I was thinking. Going from $100k, it wouldn't seem like the difference in $24k and $30k would have been a problem. The cars likely have similar maintenance costs. If he truly wanted a Maxima, looks like he would've gotten one. Instead, he chose a slightly smaller more fuel efficient vehicle. Nothing wrong with either choice.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Well...he certainly won't like the Sonata if he tries comparing it to the S500 he just got out of, but if he looks at it for what it is and what it does for him...I'm sure he'll be quite happy with the Sonata. Will he miss his Benz...OF COURSE! Will his bank account be happy...CERTAINLY!!!
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    offering a bit of luxury to those that want something like an Infiniti, Benz or Beemer and can't afford it. I guess you can call it blue-collar luxury!
    well Hyundai is marketing the car,at least, to those potential MB/BMW etc buyers - very few of whom are 'blue collar'. Which is why they are barking up the wrong tree - those 'white collars' won't listen- the 'blue collars' ,though, MIGHT -on their way over to their local Pontiac/Chrysler dealer.
    and sure, I could trade my $30k Avalon in on a brand spanking new $9k Kia but I doubt very seriously that Kia would consider me even a potential buyer even though I could obviously afford several of them. They know that the chances of me ending up in a Korean econobox (or anybody's econobox) are something akin to the chances of that S500 buyer ending up in a Genesis (or a Sonata).
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    How do you figure they are marketing TO potential MB/BMW buyers? Where did you get this from???

    You mean to tell me that every person that's a potential MB, BMW, Infiniti, Lexus or Acura buyer is receiving personal adverts letting them know about the Genesis??? Oh wait, it only shows up on THEIR televisions, right? Maybe, those potential buyers are the only ones getting annoying pop-up ads on their computer telling them about the Genesis, yeah...that's it!

    Come on Captain, you're reaching a bit there on that statement. The only thing Hyundai has said is that they looked to the the likes of BMW/ MB and other such brands when it came to creating the Genesis. Does that mean, they are marketing those types of buyers? No, it does not...unless you twist it in your own way to see it. It merely means they set a benchmark to shoot for in creating affordable luxury that the blue-collar types can afford while the white-collar folks are riding around in their Beemers, Benzes and other such fancy rides.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    OK OK I guess you're the one that thinks that it's going to be a BMW/MB alternative, not Hyundai - because they certainly know better than that - like in those TV ads 'comparing' a Sonata to a 5 series. Must be a joke, I guess? Maybe we can call it 'the Hyundai challenge' - these kind of things haven't helped Ford out much either.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Sonata to a 5-series, Azera to a LS460 and Veracruz to a RX350...

    At least Ford is sane with their "Ford Challenge" as they swap only comparable cars (like Accord for Fusion). I would love to see Hyundai's edition of them swapping Sonata to a 5-series, Azera to a LS460 and Veracruz to a RX350. Well, probably the last one might work actually.

    I really have no problem with Hyundai's products, what I have problem with is their advertising strategies.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Once again, you only see something for what you want to see it as. I never took those ads as being a a car comparing it to a car to get a BMW owner interested. It's simply saying to the blue-collar worker...you don't have to pay BMW money to get this or that.

    So...since Hyundai says the Azera has more room inside than a 7-Series, that means they are going after potential 7-Series buyers? LMAO You're a riot...truly. No...they are simply saying you can get a nice car with more room than a 7-Series and certainly not pay 7-Series money. That's pretty appealing to someone of the blue-collar nature with a family consisting of 1 or 2 kids, don't ya think?

    Stop being so cynical.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Again, the comparo with the Azera and the LS460...simply put, you can spend all that money for a car that can park itself, or you can have a nice car and save at least $30K. Were comparisons made to say that the Azera rivaled the LS in anyway? Did the ad say that the Azera was better than the LS? No...it simply said, for those open minded enough to get it, sure...you can spend it IF you have it, but if not...here's a nice car that isn't ridiculously priced.

    As far as the Veracruz to the RX...even Car & Driver has compared the two and said that the Veracruz is a worthy competitor against the RX. Wow...makes you start to think...if the Veracruz can go head to head with RX, why can't any other models do the same with other luxo-models? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm!!!
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    I guess we are getting off topic here but maybe you should check out Edmunds' long term test blogs. They have just acquired a Veracruz and one of the editors commented that it's not as nice as the RX.

    As for the Azera vs. LS460...

    It's almost like North Korea kept saying that they have missiles that can reach somewhere in our west coast but forgot to mention that we have missiles that can hit Kim Jong Il's king size bed whenever we want. :P
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    agreed - and even Ford can compare comparable cars that aren't really comparable - as in their Fusion/Accord/Camry 'challenge'. Hyundai does seem to think they are perhaps - something more than they are.
  • autokritikerautokritiker Member Posts: 65
    We're assuming the guy bought his Mercedes brand new, or less than a year old with only a few-thousand miles on it. Used 2003 - 2005 Mercedes S500 4MATIC models, with 30K to 50K miles, are selling for $35,000 to $45,000 retail. You can get one with 60K to 80K miles for under $30,000.

    It's so tempting pick up a high-end used car for a fraction of the price of a new one. Then, within a year or two, you'll find out that the scheduled maintenance and out-of-warranty repairs on those cars will drain your wallet -- Fast.

    In that case, I'm sure the guy would be very happy with an Azera/Maxima/Avalon, which are all great cars and cheap to own, for around $30,000 brand new. Even a Sonata Limited, loaded (leather, heated seats, 6-CD premium stereo, etc) selling for between $20,000 to $22,000 new, is more than enough to satisfy the average consumer.

    People who can truely afford to own over-the-top luxury cars are people who are swimming in so much extra money that they don't know what to do with it all -- so they dump some of it on a nice fancy machine.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    the most logical 'target' for the Azera is - the Lucerne and Taurus. A little bit of a stretch to get into Avalon/Maxima territory but absolutely outrageous to compare it to a 7 series and/or a LS.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    absolutely outrageous to compare it to a 7 series and/or a LS.

    It's more like: absolutely outrageous to be mentioned in a same sentence with the 7-series and LS.

    Same goes for every other car in this category.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    since Hyundai says the Azera has more room inside than a 7-Series, that means they are going after potential 7-Series buyers
    why else mention it? This would be from the same guy that thinks Hyundai warranties their cars for 10 years - because they have more faith in them or they are built better? No, not cynicism - it's called realism. ;)
    The truth is that Hyundai doesn't know how to 'sell' cars EXCEPT thru price reductions - because in the Azera they do have a car that should be good enough to sell without giving them away. And it still doesn't 'sell' well even after the inevitable 'Korean' discounts.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    Same goes for every other car in this category

    Yep.
Sign In or Register to comment.