Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

luvmbooty

This discussion would compare and include cars like the Buick Lucerne, Chevrolet Impala, Chrysler 300, Dodge Charger, Ford Five Hundred/Mercury Montego, Hyundai Azera, Toyota Avalon, Nissan Maxima, Kia Amanti.

captain2

For the record, the 4.6-liter Northstar is a twister, not a torquer, delivering 275 horsepower at 5600 rpm, with another 1000 rpm available before the redline, but a torque output of only 290 pound-feet at 4400 rpm. Compared with, say, the 390 pound-feet at 4000 rpm of Chrysler’s Hemi, the Lucerne’s V-8 is only mildly energetic.
a quote from a C&D road test of the 06 CXS
Sure sounds like the Buick has the same 'problem' (by your way of thinking) as the Toyota and Nissan V6s. The point being that there is more good to be found in our 'twisters' in terms of smoothness and FE, thanks in large part to those efficiencies possible with OHC designs. 'Twisters' I'm relatively sure you'll agree need more gears, simply to keep operating at peak efficiency. Or maybe you would be just better off with that 300C or Impala SS, so you can really own a 'torquer'.

luvmbooty

Most mid-size family sedans, I feel, are good for a family of 4, but not enough for family of 5. SUVs and vans are not as economic as they used to be, unless you want to spend more money on hybrid SUVs like the Toyota Highlander.

I think most people who buy these cars have families. That said, I would prefer the best protection for my family with a tested car like the Five Hundred, which is also price is at the low end of the mentioned cars above.

The Avalon and the Impala also received acceptable crash scores by IIHS. Avalon is a nice car if you can afford it. The Impala, I think, you could purchase at the lowest price and uses the flex fuel (if you know where to buy it), so sounds like the most economical out of all. Great it provides seating for six but, I wouldn't want my child in the middle, front with a lap belt instead of a 3 point belt and no head rest. I doubt that seat is large enough for an adult. I personally like the styling of the Five Hundred more than the Impala. For example, I like the Five Hundred's "Command Seating." Also Ford has better warranty than Chevy now.

I know it only has 203 horsepower, but I like it because of space, comfort, great crash test scores, and value. Don't need speed when hauling children.

quietpro

I like the 500 for size but I demand more power. I chose the Impala SS, which, I agree is very conservatively designed (although it has grown on me quite a bit). I also think the 500's styling is conservative but it may be the best choice for family's with larger children.

As for flex-fueled vehicles, E85 is already showing how unviable it really is. Check out this forum: http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/WebX/.f0b617b/1931 . It's a huge forum but there is a lot of information in it.

While I really enjoyed the Chrysler 300/Dodge Charger, both in size AND power, they "skimped" on standard technology. A comparably priced Charger was several thousand more than the Impala. Also, many of the "nifty" little items just aren't available with the other makes.

My opinion on the leading Japanese offerings is that they are overrated and overpriced. That's an argument that will never be solved here and those who prefer them are just as adamant as I am.

That leaves the relative newcomers, Kia, Hyundai, etc. which are proving to be great values. They don't offer all the toys or power I'm looking for but at least there is a significant discount. While we were shopping, we went to a Toyota/Hyundai dealer. The salesman was on auto-pilot thinking we would jump on the Camry bandwagon. We asked and were shown a Sonata but it just wasn't large enough. We weren't aware of the Azera which may have fit our needs. That salesman's failure in objectivity may have cost him that sale. It serves him right, though.

The bottom line is that there are many factors that play a part in a decision. There are a lot of great choices out there and everyone needs to feel they made their own best choice.

stevenw

Many of the engines in those cars are wheezy and just don't deliver the oomph that I'm used to. Before I bought my 2005 300 Limited I had never owned a car that did not have a v-8 engine. I drove a lot of sedans and found I did not like the size (or lack therof) or the lack of lower they exhibited. The 3.5 L HO engine in the limited delivers almost the same HP as my old Aurora did with the NS V-8. Of course you are talking about the base 300 in this discussion because a Touring or Limited (let alone the "C") are over $30K. I have not driven a 2.7 L base 300 but I'd suspect it's worth the $$ to upgrade the engine to the 3.5 unless you like driving a wheezer.

luvmbooty

You could get a fully loaded Chevy Impala SS V8 that has 303 Hp@5600 rpms and 323 lbs.-ft. of torque @4400 rpms for under $30,000.

How about a Dodge Caliber RT(not fully loaded) that has 340 Hp @ 5000 rpms and 390 lbs.-ft of torque @ 4000 rpms.

Not included in this comparison but a Pontiac Grand Prix GXP V8 fully loaded w/out Navigation that has same Hp and torque as Impala for under $30,000.

Right now there is a $1,000 manufacturer to Dealer incentive for a 2006 Buick Lucerne CXL V8 that has 275 Hp @ 6000 rpms and 295 lbs.-ft. of torque @ 4400 rpms for under $30,000 (also not fully loaded).

Your best bet with these cars would probably be the Dodge. It also has the best styling of the 4 above. My point is you could get a V8 for under $30,000, though it sounds like your more used to more upscale sedans.

One of the reasons I started this forum was to see how one could buy a near luxury car at a reasonable price. For example, you could spend equal amounts for a V6 Camry or Accord as the 4 cars mentioned above. They probably aren't as refined as the Camry or Accord but definitely more spacious and more comfortable.

stevenw

Although I don't consider a Caliber to be a "large sedan". Maybe a Magnum would be more fitting in this comparison. I think a base Magnum is under $30K as well.

buzz123

Great suggestion for a new topic! My vote is for the Avalon. Consumer Reports ranked it number 1 in the Large Sedan category. As they said, "The Avalon offers a lot of car for the money. It has a limo-like rear seat that can even recline. The quality of the cabin materials is almost as impressive as that of Toyota's luxury Lexus line. The Avalon rides very comfortably and quietly." Those are consumer reports words, not mine, but I definitely agree with them. Not to mention the engine which is a V6 with 268 HP @ 6200 RPM and 248 ft-lbs @ 4700 RPM. All this with a mileage rating of 22 City/31 Highway. In fact, I just returned from a 357 mile trip visiting the in-laws and I actually got even better than that. I got 31.9 MPG and that was driving mostly 70 MPH. Of course you can't get a fully loaded Avalon for under $30K, but you can, and I did, get one that has a lot of great features for less than $30K including the reclining rear seats (great for passengers on long trips) and dual zone automatic climate system (so the wife can set the temp to what she wants and I can set the temp to what I want). Also, as someone else pointed out already, "The Avalon and the Impala also received acceptable crash scores by IIHS." All this made the Avalon the vehicle for me!

luvmbooty

I like the Avalon, too. I just bought a 2006 RAV4. The engine performs the same and so does the 2007 Camry. I think they all share the same engine. Great performance with descent fuel economy. I just hope either of us don't get a recall.

buzz123

Yep, you're right about it being the same engine in the Avalon, 2006 RAV4 and 2007 Camry. I know what you mean about all this recall stuff they've been talking about. I hope either of us don't get a recall, too. Actually, we've been thinking of getting the RAV4 to replace my wife's Corolla. Since I got the 2006 Avalon, we'll probably wait another year or two before getting the RAV4 to space out the vehicles a bit. Looks like they did a great job with the redesign. How has your RAV4 been so far?

luvmbooty

Excellent! The drive is smooth and quiet. We bought the V6 4x4 (part time) w/following options:remote start, curtain side airbags, DTR lights, 3rd row seat (children only), roof rack, mud guards, tow prep, and carpet floor mats. It was hard to find the V6 with the third row. Had mostly 4 cyls with 3rd row in NY/NJ area. With the extra weight, you'd want more power, right?

I think the 3rd row is better than Highlander because 3rd row is 50/50 folding and the bay of where the seat folds in to gives you more room for luggage. There really isn't a whole lot but the Highlander's luggage space is nonexistent when seat is up. We payed $25,400 for it.

I recently went to msn.com and saw Consumer Reports has rated it finally. It's the top rated small SUV now beating the previous winner, the Subaru Forester scored 71, RAV4 4cyl scored 77, V6 scored 83.

I wouldn't rule out the Forester because of IIHS.org crash test perfect rating. Back seat is a little cramped but plenty of luggage space. The RAV4s rear seat adjusts forward or back which helps 3rd row leg room.

lweiss

Can you really get a Nissan Maxima for under $30K? If so, I think that it would be very viable for my purposes (rarely more than 4 people in the car). I thought that they went for $33K-$35K, more like an Acura TL. Plus it seems more like a 4 door sports sedan, not in the category of the Toyota Avalon or Chevy Malibu or Chrysler 300.

luvmbooty

If you get it fully loaded, no! If you get it say with 18" chrome wheels, sunroof, VDC w/full size spare, floor and trunk mats, and colored splash guards the invoice comes to $28,889. Edmunds TMV for these options is adds up to $30,809. If your a good negotiator, I think you could. Did you know the 2006 right now has a rebate of $1,500?

luvmbooty

2006 Chrysler 300 2.7L base/103 cu ft interior/24 cu ft luggage/MPG 21c, 28h/190 hp@6400 rpm/Invoice $22,238-$24,858/IIHS.org G,M,A

2006 Dodge Charger 3.5L SE/103 cu ft interior/24 cu ft luggage/MPG 19c, 27h/250 hp@6400 rpm/Invoice $20,983-$29,330/IIHS.org G,M,-

2007 Nissan Maxima 3.5L SE/104 cu ft interior/16 cu ft luggage/MPG 21c, 28h (premium gas)/255 hp@6000 rpm/Invoice $25,648-$34,831/IIHS.org G,M,P

2006 Kia Amanti 3.8L base/105 cu ft interior/15 cu ft luggage/200 hp@5500 rpm/Invoice $25,510-$27,505/IIHS.org G,-,A

2007 Chevy Impala 3.5L LS/105 cu ft interior/19 cu ft luggage/MPG 20c, 29h/211 hp@5800 rpm/Invoice $19,618-$20,968/IIHS.org A,G,P

2006 Toyota Avalon 3.5L XL/107 cu ft interior/14 cu ft luggage/MPG 22c, 31h/268 hp@6200 rpm/Invoice $$23,921-$27,880/IIHS.org G,G,P

2007 Hyundai Azera 3.8L SE/107 cu ft interior/17 cu ft luggage/MPG 19c, 28h/263 hp@6000 rpm/Invoice $21,901-$24,424/IIHS.org G,A,A

2007 Buick Lucerne 3.8L CX/108 cu ft interior/17 cu ft luggage/MPG 19c, 28h/197 hp@5200 rpm/Invoice $24,041-$28,512/IIHS.org G,A,P

2007 Ford Five Hundred 3.0L SEL/108 cu ft interior/21 cu ft luggage/MPG 21c, 29h/203 hp@5750 rpm/Invoice $20,966-$26,340/IIHS.org G,G,G

Right now for 2006 Maxima has a rebate of $1,500, 2006 Amanti rebate $3,000, 2006 Impala rebate $2,000, 2006 Azera rebate $1,000, 2006 Lucerne rebate $1,500 and Incentive $1,000, 2006 Five Hundred REBATE $1,000.

Invoice prices listed above refers to the lowest trim only. Probably possible to get higher trims under $30,000 but not if it's fully loaded and how good of a negotiator you are.

Note that EPA city mileage isn't accurate but can be used as a guide.

Also The only large sedan listed with a fully loaded invoice above $30,000 is the Nissan Maxima SE.

All IIHS.org test scores are with side curtain airbags.

luvmbooty

Sorry it was a typing error. I ment to print CHARGER!

wamba2000

I was pleased to see that CR rated the Hyundai Azera one slot below the Avalon, since it is a new model, it can't get the "recommended" designation. It's ranking was surprising, being higher than many of the cars listed here.

We purchased an Azera about 1.5 months ago and I am very pleased with the vehicle, performance, ride, handling etc. I think the Azera gives the Avalon a run for the money, and if Hyundai continues to maintain and improve quality (Bet large sedan by JD Power) just a month or so ago, it will give Hyundai a foothold in the large car market.

buzz123

Glad you like your RAV4! That is odd about the 4 cyls with the 3rd row. You're right, it makes sense that with the extra weight you would want more power. Glad you were able to find what you were looking for! Sounds like you got a great deal! I think you're right about the RAV4 being a better than the current Highlander. It'll be interesting to see what changes they make to the Highlander. That's great about the RAV4 being rated the top small SUV! Haven't decided yet if we want the 3rd row, but it's good to know the rear seat adjusts forward or back which helps 3rd row leg room. Thanks for the info! Enjoy your RAV4!

buzz123

Glad you like your Azera! I purchased my Avalon before the Azera was released, so I wasn't able to consider it in my decision. However, from everything I've read, Hyundai really has done a great job turning things around with their new vehicles, including the Azera. You definitely get a lot more features for the price with the Azera over the Avalon. I think the biggest negative I can see about the Azera is mileage. The Azera is: City 19 MPG, Highway 28 MPG and the Avalon is: City 22 MPG, Highway 31 MPG. However, it's not a huge difference and if it was around when I was buying, I definitely would have given the Azera a test drive. I've got a bad back and if the Azera was more comfortable than the Avalon, then I'd be willing to sacrifice a couple of MPG and go with the Azera. Unfortunately, since I've had bad luck with American cars, I only considered something from Toyota or Honda but next time I'll probably add Hyundai to that list. If the American companies can turn things around like Hyundai, I may even add them back to my list. It'll be interesting to see if Hyundai can keep this up. I think you're right when you said "...if Hyundai continues to maintain and improve quality (Bet large sedan by JD Power) just a month or so ago, it will give Hyundai a foothold in the large car market." I look forward to testing driving an Azera when it comes time to trade in my Avalon. Of course, that won't be for another 10 years or so, but at least by then it should be clear how Hyundai is really doing. Enjoy your Azera!

buzz123

Now I see what you meant earlier when you said "...I would prefer the best protection for my family with a tested car like the Five Hundred..." Looks like the 500 has the best IIHS test score! That's definitely a big plus for the 500. At least my Avalon came in second. Are you thinking of getting a 500?

luvmbooty

You bet! I love the roomy interior and huge trunk. I also love styling. Many critics say the Five Hundred lacks styling but I love the VW Passat and Jetta's look but if I'm spending that kind of money I'd prefer size. I read somewhere that a VW designer helped with the Five Hundred's making.

Also the Five Hundred shares its platform with the Volvo S80, which is why I'd expect how it got those test scores. I think if Ford wants to stay in the business of selling cars, this strategy is the way to go. Down sizing and taking the best parts from each make and create one "super sedan". Say for instance, Mazda 6 sportiness, Five Hundred's interior, trunk and price, Volvo platform, comfort interior from Mercury, a refined engine and trany from Lincoln or Jaguar. I don't know. Just an idea.

For now I'm happy with the Five Hundred. What I like about it the most is its price. I think it's a lot of car for the money and so is the Hyundai Sonata, another sedan I've been considering.

Sonata's government test scores were all 5's. Like styling.
IIHS.org gave it G,A,G, which is better than most. Can't beat price especially with current rebate of $2,500 for the GLS V6 or LX trims. You could easily get a GLS V6 for under $18,000! All safety features are standard (6 airbags, traction, and stability). As they say, "Best Warranty in America." The Sonata offers 105 cu ft interior and 16 cu ft trunk. V6 engines put out 235 hp@6000 rpms. Consumer Report's doesn't rate it since it's a new design but recent previous models have had good reliability records (2003-2005). CR did give the Five Hundred its highest recommendation, though.

captain2

you'll be pressed to find a reasonably well optioned Avalon for under $30k and they are still selling well enough that there has been no need for all the rebate/discounts available on the lesser cars. But, the base XL and perhaps even the sportier Touring can get to this kind of number - other than that (XLS/Ltd)you are looking at 33-40k, more competitive with things like TLs etc.
The Azera is interesting in that Hyundai has done a great job with its new V6s - but, it is certainly 'Buick' soft and needs to lose a little weight to improve FE. Resale value, of course, figures to be horrid. It surprises me that they are already starting 'Detroit style' discount programs on such a competent entry in this field.
The Maxima - wonderful powertrain, smaller than many here, certainly available in the higher 20s, and as is Nissan tradition a sportier, harder edged feel.
The 'American' entrants - hard to take seriously, they have yet to figure out how to build a competitive V6 engine. GM's 3.8 has been around for 50 years, and while it should durable, it is rough-as-cob and well behind in FE. The 3.6 in the Lacrosse/CTS (and Chrysler 3.5) better but still behind even what 'little ole' Hyundai has done - never mind the truly superior efforts from Toyota/Honda/Nissan. The Ford 3.0 DT a joke in what is otherwise a well designed (Swedish) car.
IMO, the best car in this range, the Avalon without a doubt - although you will pay a premium for it - the best value, probably the Azera. The 'Detroit' cars - better get them while they're hot (and cheap), some of them may not be available much longer!

luvmbooty

Not interested in the Upscale sedans priced over $30,000 like Acura, Lexus, or Audi. Too much money for a car just to get from point A to B.

I agree that the Avalon is the most refined sedan in this forum but like you said you'd pay a premium price for it. I also think that Toyota is being a little greedy not to give rebates or incentives for a soon to be one year old model. One reason why the Azera will give it a run for its money.

I don't believe that the 'Detroit' cars are on their way out though. There are many people who are fans of American cars. I think as long as the 'Detroit' cars will be competitive as long as they keep their prices down. The Five Hundred will be getting a better engine in 2008. I think it's the Duratech 3.5 with hp of 250.

buzz123

I know what you mean about styling. Critics say the same thing about the Avalon, but I like the styling of the Avalon and the Five Hundred much better than the Chrysler 300. It's pretty cool that a VW designer helped with the Five Hundred and that it shares its platform with the Volvo S80. I think your idea of Ford "Down sizing and taking the best parts from each make and create one super sedan..." is just what they need to turn things around. All the specs and everything about the Five Hundred look great. It's definitely a lot of car for the money. I can definitely see why you'd be considering it. If I hadn't had so many problems with American cars in the past, I probably would have given it a test drive and considered it myself. Hopefully, Ford and other American companies continue this trend so I can add them to my list again when it comes time to trade in my Avalon. That's interesting about the Sonata doing better than the Azera in the IIHS test scores. I can definitely see why you'd be considering the Sonata. Looks like it has a lot of pluses as well. Good time of year to be buying with all the rebates they have now.

buzz123

I definitely agree with you about Toyota being a bit greedy. It would have been nice to get some kind of rebate on the Avalon. I also agree that sedans over $30K are too much money for a car just to get from point A to B. I paid $26K for my Avalon XL. It doesn't have leather seats or a moonroof, but it has the same great engine and ride quality as the more expensive models not to mention Toyota reliability. To me the reliability was worth the extra premium. My previous car was a Chevy Malibu and I had to spend thousands and thousands of dollars keeping it running over the years. The last straw was when they said my transmission was shot and it would cost $2.5K to rebuild it! My wife has a Toyota Corolla that is one year older than my Malibu and she only had to do routine maintenance like replacing the brakes and tires. Since we keep our cars for 10 years or so, that difference adds up over the life of the car. To me, piece of mind is more important than extra options that I will probably never miss because I've never had them before. Of course, that's just my personal preference based on my own experience. Each person has to make a prioritized list of what's important to them and base their decision on that.

luvmbooty

One thing I find funny about the Malibu is JD Power named it "Highest Ranked Entry Midsize Car in Initial Quality". Consumer Reports 'New Car Prediction' was 'Worse than Average'. IQS by JD Power is for the first 3 months of ownership only. This could be misleading if you don't really look at it for what it is, especially if you own a car for 10 years.

I don't believe in buying a car fully loaded, either. I'm not one to spend most of my time in one, although I appreciate dependability and comfort as would anybody. Example, what are you buying exactly when you buy a higher trim? Unless the engine is an upgrade, I think it's a waste of money. It's the same :mad: :mad: car!

Let's take the Avalon as an example.

Avalon XL Invoice: $23,921; Avalon Limited Invoice: $29,888 (with no options added)

Fully loaded XL Invoice: $28,294; Fully loaded Limited (w/out Nav.): $33,431

I'm sure you get a lot more for nick nacks for the money but I think a person could survive with out them. It's also the same ENGINE!

Of course you'll never get any Avalon at invoice but I doubt anyone would buy at MSRP.

captain2

interesting perspective - think that Toyota is being a little greedy not to give rebates or incentives!
The Avalon is currently being sold for a few hundred over invoice and, as you note, without rebates and incentives. Is this a function of Toyota being 'greedy' or is it really the market dictating a perceived value? The new Ford Mustang continues to sell well with very minimal rebates/incentives - is Ford being greedy or have they finally stumbled on a marketable car? The Morris just a few years back was sold at prices well over sticker, and don't go into a BMW dealership and ask about rebates on that 530 - never has there been any such thing. As Buick is prone to do - the overpriced (and poorly rated) Lucerne CXL can be stickered well above $35k intentionally, factoring the inevitable discounts in initially - I guess so that Buick might convince the public that it really is a $35k car that 'happens' to be available at prices several thousand below that. The market dictates exactly what a car is worth, rebates or not - and if any car manufacturer makes a car that is in such high demand that they don't have to float obscene discounts, they won't. 'Greed' has nothing to do with it. If the new Impala or 500 were truly superior cars and the buying public agrred with that - I assure you that they wouldn't be selling for the prices they are today and that GM/Ford (USA) wouldn't be losing nearly as much money as they do.
An unfortunate result of all these employee pricing programs/rebates/incentives/financing deals that the 'American' mfgrs. themselves trapped into - the mfgrs. continue lose their butt and furthermore do not have the money to develop or manufacture better cars. The 500 should never have been put on the market without an improved drivetrain. A primary reason why the Japanese 3 will continue to manufacture better cars. People that go into a jewelry store and buy because of 50% off sale need to understand the concept of inflated prices and crappy diamonds!
Do agree, however, that a large percentage of the American car buyer, would prefer to buy that American branded car (even if it isn't actually built here) - if only apples were apples.

tjc78

Can't agree more. I gave the Lucerne a drive before I bought my Avalon. There was really no comparison. The Av's V6 was quicker than the V8 in the Buick and the overall car just isn't as "polished" as the Toyota. The 500 is a really nice car, but outclassed in terms of the engine. There is most definately a reason Toyota doesn't have to discount as heavy as GM and Ford. It is a shame, I would go American again, if they could make a car that can honestly compete, not just on paper in terms of specs.

captain2

this is one of the ways the successful mfgrs. can make some money - take the same basic engine and platform and offer it in as many upscaled forms as you can:
- the 3.5 in your Avalon that also appears in multiple Lexus models for tens of thousands more
- the 3.6 or the V8 in the LaCrosse/Lucerne that appears in the Caddy CTS/DTS again for significant premiums
- Nissan/Infiniti which has pretty much based their entire lines on the VQ V6 and the $23k Altima V6 platform - also revitalizing the entire company in the process.

Is a Lincoln Zephyr, for example. 'worth' the extra 10 grand or so more than an optioned out Fusion? Well, it is for the folks that need or want the extra 'bling' or the label. If all a car is is an appliance we would all be driving around in Kia econoboxes. Most folks out there put more value in a car than simply getting from A to B, an attitude that the mfgrs. will happily cater to.

Hope you are enjoying your XL, mine an 05 Touring that I paid $30k for with some minor options - it is such a wonderful car at your $26k or even $40k some folks are paying for an optioned to the gills Limited.

luvmbooty

Besides me, is there anyone else besides Avalon owners reading this forum?

luvmbooty

Captian2 and Buzz123, say if you couldn't afford an Avalon, which would be the other car of choice in this forum and also any other sedan? Don't tell me a Camry or Accord, right?

captain2

the Azera/Sonata, especially if you plan on keeping it a long time (warranty should take care of expensive problems and resale value becomes insignificant), possibly the Maxima/Altima if you can stretch a few grand because you would likely get that money back at trade-in time, if you normally change cars more often.

loyalbuickfan

Yes this discussion is posted on all of the Large Sedan Forums at Edmunds. I read it at the Buick Lucerne Forum.

Each owner seems to understandably defend their personal choice as the best car.

However in what order are that person's preferences?

Mine must be it this order.
Smooth Quiet Ride, Trouble-Free, Dependable, Cloth Seating, LuxuryOptions, Smooth Engine Performance, MPG, Cost, Warranty, Resale Value.

Now mix up that list in 5 ways and you may get 5 "best " cars.

Comments?

janeandwaldo

I was just reading the post by TJC78 and I find it hard to believe he actually test drove a V8 Lucerne and compared it against an Avalon. I will not claim to be an expert on the Avalon I only know what I have read. The Avalon may have more power or feel like it has more power I won't deny that as I have not driven one.

In the Lucerne forums however I have heard Avalon owners complain about vibrations, engine noise, transmission trouble, bad suspension.

I'll tell you what I challenge any car out there to give as smooth and quiet a ride as the V8 Lucerne. I have one and I absolutely love it. I wouldn't trade it for anything. It has plenty of power for me it will light the tires anytie you ask.

I am not bashing you and don't mean this to be a slam but please to bash the Lucerne because 'you feel' the Avalon has more power is absurd. It is a great car and if people can get over their Buick Prejudice they would see how great.

91 LeSabre - Donated at 212,000 miles still running strong
97 LeSabre Limited - Still own with 165,00 miles still running strong.
06 Lucerne CXL V8 - 10,000 Miles no issues yet runs as great as the day we drove it off the lot.

loyalbuickfan

I could not agree more.

I am finally replacing my 1994 Park Ave. (bought new),156,000 miles and it still runs great! I will take delivery of my specially ordered New Lucerne in 3 weeks.

tjc78

I drove them back to back within 15 minutes and on the exact same course. The dealers are across the street from one another. The Av is quicker, had a better ride, the enigne was quieter, and I preferred almost everything about the car. I had someone with me who felt the same way too. Not to start a war here, but the Buick is not a new car. The Engine and trans are ancient. The Av gets way better mileage (23/31 compared to 17/25) because of the 5 speed tranny. My Avalon has not one rattle, no trans issues, vibrations, anything. The only thing I can say bad about the car is the Bridgestone tires are a little noisy. I should have gotten one with the Michelins. The Avalon forum has its share of complaints, but also a lot of praise for the car. Don't get me wrong the Lucerne is a nice car, probably one of the nicest GM's I have ever driven, but has a little way to go yet. Also, the Avalon came in with a much lower monthly payment on a three year lease for almost indentical MSRP. The residual was better and when I was looking there weren't any incentives on the Buick, (not that there was on the Av either)

captain2

to be fair here - you are comparing FE figures of a V8 versus a state of the art V6 although the HP figures are very close - the reason why the Avalon is so much quicker and so much more economical is that it weighs substantially less and not so much to do with the number of gears in the tranny.

tjc78

Forgot about the weight difference, the Av is 400 lbs less. However, your point kind of proves mine. The V8 Lucerne is just a new design with an old powertrain, whereas the Toyota design is much more modern and efficient.

buzz123

You're right, that is an interesting difference between what JD Powers and Consumer Reports say. I guess they're both right. My Malibu was fine for the first 3 months. Actually I think it was fine for the first couple of years, but after that it was one thing after another, after another, after another...........

buzz123

Yes, I am enjoying my XL! Glad you're enjoying your Touring! You're right, it is a wonderful car!

buzz123

That's a really good question. I actually looked at the Accord and Camry first. However, I have a bad back and the seats in those cars just weren't comfortable enough for me. That's what sold me on the Avalon. The seats are very comfortable and just right for my back. Based on my bad experience with GM and my Malibu, I just couldn't bring myself to consider any of their products. Personally, I don't like the looks of the Chrysler 300 or Dodge Charger so that eliminates those choices. I guess for me, it would come down to the Five Hundred, Azera, Sonata or Maxima. If you're taking the Avalon off the list because of price then the Maxima would probably have to come off the list for the same reason. That leaves either the Five Hundred, Azera or Sonata. Each car has its pluses and minuses so it's hard to say for sure. I think a final decision has to be based on which of the pluses and minuses are most important to each person. Since I have a bad back, the most important thing to me is comfortable seats, so that would probably be the tie breaker for me. If IIHS test scores or trunk size are most important go with the Five Hundred. If Consumer Reports ranking or the engine is most important go with the Azera/Sonata. There's really no right or wrong answer. Just what suits each person best given their particular set of circumstances.

captain2

'Detroit' in general has always been very good with V8 engines and not so good with the technology that allows my Avalon the 27 mpg overall that I get and the low 6 second 0-60 times that is supposedly possible. Can't remember any smaller displacement 4 or 6 cylinder engine that could hold a candle to engines available from Europe and Japan - the 'Detroit' approach - attack the problem with displacement.
The Lucerne V8 is only marginally slower (7 second), the 300 hp V8 Impala SS marginally quicker (high 5s), but both with a substantial FE penalty.
Can't imagine, however, that for whatever faults the Lucerne may or may not have, it should be every bit as quiet as any Avalon - this is precisely what a Buick is all about - isolation. If you remember it was the Avalon that made a reputation as a 'better Buick' and both cars were sold heavily to an older demographic. While the Buick has not changed much, the Avalon has. And there are a number of folks that prefer a V8 'rumble' to that exhilirating V6 'growl' the Avalon has at anything over 4000 rpm or so. If a soft/quiet ride is paramount, the Lucerne is a logical choice.

usfarbuo

Is this a Buick or Toyopta forum. I "hit" Azera on my computer but all I see are remarks about the buick or avalon.

killerbunny

I also think that Toyota is being a little greedy not to give rebates or incentives for a soon to be one year old model. One reason why the Azera will give it a run for its money.

Don't think so.

There is no greedy car company, as there is no generous car company. Everything is dictated by demand and supply. If Toyota offer more incentive than needed, there will be a huge line up waiting for Avalon deliveries. And then some customers are not pleased by the 6 month wait.

buzz123

I think the forum is supposed to be anything that falls into the large sedan category and is less than $30K. You're right, so far, it seems like most of the contributors have been Avalon owners followed by Buick owners. However, I think comments about any of the vehicles that fall into this category, including the Azera that you mentioned, are welcome. I'm sure it's just a matter of time before more owners of other vehicles start contributing as well. Feel free to make any comments you have about the Azera or any other vehciles in this category that you're intrested in.

buzz123

I think that's a great way to look at it! You're right when you said "Each owner seems to understandably defend their personal choice as the best car." I like your list of preferences especially the cloth seats. I prefer cloth seats as well.

averigejoe

Seems to me there is a clear winner here.
Look at the power, equipment, price, warranty and dimensions.

Verdict: HYUNDAI AZERA

Tell me where I am wrong.

hardhawk

I went to the Chicago Auto Show in Feb. and the one car that impressed me the most was the Azera. I am 6'4" and can sit in the driver's seat and get out and sit in the back driver's side seat comfortably. The Avalon is nice, but my head hits the roof in the back seat and the styling is bland. The Buick everyone is bashing was nice, but unremarkable styling turned me off. I loved the look of my 1992 Park Ave. Ultra. That was a sharp vehicle and was very relaible for the 6 years I owned it. I will certainly look at the Azera when new car time comes as in terms of car for the $$$ no one else can compare. Right now with kids and stuff to carry, I love my Dodge Magnum RT. There is no other sport wagon than can even come close in value and performance for the $$$. But, I am prejudiced towards what I picked.

imidazol97

I'm going to do what Pat suggested in another Mix discussion: tell what I like and would like different.

I like that the Lucerne replaces a range from LeSabre Custom to Park Avenue Supercharged with one car. So the Lucerne is really a dichotomy (trichotomy) or cars. I like the idea of cloth seats and smooooooth 3800 motor for those of us who don't like to drag race with high revs 99% of the time. I like the smooth but well-controlled ride; it's not your father's Buick ride anymore. Even our 03 is taut.

I'd like to see the standard bench seat available on each model and with cloth seats; I don't want to have to buy a console in the middle of the front seat to get cloth seats again like my older Buick has. I hate the leather.
I'd also like to see the Lucerne marketed as 3 different cars so that the CR and competition couldn't stereotype one model as the character of the other two; i.e., 3800 base softer ride vs Northstar wheel-scrubbing V8 with computer controlled ride struts-one of the best rides, I've read.

imidazol97

>Not to start a war here, but the Buick is not a new car.

Isn't the Avalon built on the Camry chassis? The 17/25 is for the powerful Northstar. The 3800 v6 is higher and it will deliver the mileage. See my earlier post as to the varied characteristics of the car.

The 4-speed auto works great, especially when you have a motor with torque, which both do. There is no hesitation problem with the trans/motor combo.

wolverinejoe80

man, azera looks clear winner to me. i love avalon and maxima, but they are so expensive.

janeandwaldo

Hey that's OK TJC you got your opinions I just wanted to point it out ot you. I really don't see where there could be any car much quieter or smoother than my Lucerne but I haven't ridden in an Avalon so I won't knock you. I refuse to buy a Japanese car just because I will not put an American out of work. EVen though I know Toyota probably has Assembly plants here in the US I still refuse to do it. Especially after losing my job back in 2002 to Indian IT Consultants. To boot I had to train them too so they could take my job. That was the worst training the guy to take your job. Good luck with your Avalon I hope you don't have the problems others have reported!!