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  • modvptnlmodvptnl Posts: 1,352
    Did you read the whole thing? Costs were a factor, never said otherwise, it also said emissions and low octane fuel were a factor. I said this BEFORE I read the link.

    Moparmad, why so defensive? I actually said the new designs, from Ford in particular, AREN'T Hemis from the beginning. I also asked about the Chevy Hemi head that I've never heard of, doesn't mean it's not there, would like to learn about it if it exists. Also corrected you on the Twisted wedge quote. So who should be giving up on whom? Also seems the LSI Corvette motor puts out similar #'s without the benefit of a hemi head.(per Quadrunner) If you don't want to discuss it just say so and we'll all go away and praise the all new, not released hemi.
  • quadrunner500quadrunner500 Posts: 2,728
    It's just my feeling that getting 350 hp out of 5.7L is not impossibly difficult, as the Corvette proves. But if you're Chrysler, no harm in reviving the hemi trademark, even if it differs substantially from what it used to mean. I'm sure it's going to be popular, and I hope it is.

    I'm still curious what DC is going to put it in? The trucks? Suvs? Prowler?
  • modvptnlmodvptnl Posts: 1,352
    Mountain motors are only in IHRA. NHRA has a 500 cube limit. A pro stock motor may or may not last through the weekend, true. A top fuel motor WILL burn up something EVERY run.
  • quark99quark99 Posts: 136
    Wasn't one of the negative characteristics of the old hemi engines a fragile valvetrain? I seem to remember that in small collisions, the valvetrain assembly was prone to damage.....or do I have neurons still crossed from the late '60's?
  • moparmadmoparmad Posts: 197
    Corvette does it with 4 vavles per cylinder.Mopar does it with a 2 valve Hemi.I think the misunderstanding is that I am not saying the Hemi is better.I'm just saying the Hemi is just as good.Which seems to me that most non-moparites just spend all thier time trying to figure out why the Hemi is nothing but junk.
    I have always seen everyone in professional drag racing tearing apart thier funny cars and door slammers just as much as the top fuelers.In both cases it is generally just to check.If top fuelers have a higher failure rate then is it not possible that maybe it has more to do with stuffing 6000 horsepower into a 500 cube motor and less to do with an inferior engine design.
    I haven't ever heard of Hemi valve trains being weak per say,just very complicated.Interesting article I saw in a back issue I dug out suggested the true demise of the Hemi was it's shear size making it difficult to fit in ever shrinking engine bays.
    Whatever the reasons.I feel the Hemi is a good head.I feel the 5.7 Hemi might end up being a good engine,only time will tell.And I think that at least everyone should be happy that Dodge is at least trying to get back into performance V8's,if successfull it will force all manufacturers to raise the bar.Remember the Corvette V8 is high priced exotica,the proposed Hemi is slated to go into the Dakota,Ram and Charger R/T.This might make Chevy offer the Corvette V8(or something similar)to the masses,same with Ford.So I am done argueing,the 426 Hemi is legendary and I don't need to defend it's honor anymore,nor will I continue to speculate on an engine not yet in production.I am sorry if I sound arguementative at times I don't mean to.I enjoy seeing others opinions and some very good points were made.But I can't change your minds and you can't change mine so I will end by saying thanks for the conversation.
  • modvptnlmodvptnl Posts: 1,352
    do not have 4 valve heads, unless you count the late great ZR1 which has 405 HP.

    Moparmad, sorry if I caused any of your negative attitude toward trying to have a conversation. The 426 hemi was legendary, my opinion was it just out lived its efficiency due to changing fuels and emissions. Your point about its size is well taken but remember we still had 440's, 460's and 454's many years after. Like the Ford Cleveland head, it was a hard motor to lower compression on and make streetable because of the times.

    I think you might be angry because I questioned your comments on Boss motors, Chevy hemis, and twisted wedge heads. I honestly was questioning you on the Chevy because I don't know of a factory hemi head. Now you're mistaken on the Corvette motor. All people are trying to say is that the #'s are already there with less "exotic" heads(Corvette) and we question what benefit a NEW hemi is going to bring to the table considering we still have crappy gas and strict emissions etc.

    I don't believe anybody flamed you or questioned what the 426 accomplished. I for one am curious what benefit the new head will have over "newer" technology. If you don't want to continue that's fine but please don't continue for the wrong reasons.
  • modvptnlmodvptnl Posts: 1,352
    Funny cars are Top Fuel cars.
  • quark99quark99 Posts: 136
    Sorry for being uncivil and making smarta$$ comments at the beginning of this board...Your comments are well-founded and welcome anytime. I'm certainly not an expert on Hemis or the new 5.7l motor....You participated in a discussion that led to greater understanding amongst our fellow Mopar fans...and that's why we "hang out" here at the keyboard, exploring ideas, sharing knowledge, etc., etc,. I tend to "go off" a little sometimes, so again, please accept my apologies-
    As a side note, and I've seen similar sentiments expressed elsewhere, doesn't it seem like all the automakers "hold back" a little on engine improvements? There's always a little something extra in "next year's model", so I guess that's part of the marketing scheme. Case in point:
    In 1996, wasn't Ford's 4.6l only making 205 HP? Then suddenly, it's making 220 HP, or 240 HP in certain it's making 260 HP in the Mustang. Like the 5.4l in the F-150 and Expedition made 240 HP, then 260 HP, and now, of course, it makes 300 HP in the Navigator. Makes you wonder....Of course, in 2002, the 4.7l in the Dakota will probably be bumped up to, say 250 HP, and so on, and so on, ad infinitum. I remember when your basic 2.0l car made about 90-95 HP, then 110, then 125, then 140, then 150, then 170, now the Honda S2000 makes 240 HP! Of course, torque in these 2.0l cars (various automakers) has remained between 110 and 140 lbs....
  • themacguythemacguy Posts: 417
    The production Chrysler 300 C is reportedly getting the (or a close variant of) the 4.7l in the Dakota, NOT the 5.7l hemi, and it'll also get a 'bunch' of crossover pieces from the Mercedes E class replacement- while a new 3.7l V-6 derived directly from the V-8 4.7l is scheduled to go in the new Jeep Cherokee replacement being built in a new plant in Toledo, OH and shipping next spring. I'm quite sure it'll replace the 3.9l. It sure looks like the 4.7l is destined to be the new corporate design mule. Can real performance mods be very far off? :-)
  • nrd525nrd525 Posts: 109
    They don't ALWAYS burn something up on every pass,but most of the time they do.Some of them go the whole weekend and don't hurt a thing,then next week burn it up on every pass.
    If everything is set just right,sometimes the price of the nitro is actually higher than the gaskets and sealer they use.A lot of the time,it looks worse than it really is,when tey open it up,it's just burned/backsided pistons.The pistons are pretty cheap,actually.
    A lot of the teams are just changing engines every round,and fixing them later.MAkes a lot of sense to me,with only 75 min.between rounds now.
  • modvptnlmodvptnl Posts: 1,352
    If by some chance a top fueler DOESN'T burn something up the crew chief will turn up the wick a little. It is my understanding that, like you said, they want to fry at least a few pistons on every run simply because they're running as lean as possible for max. power. It is a fine line and the tune-up can be right one run and be wrong the next due to any change in temp, humidity, pressure etc. "total rebuild" was the wrong term, sorry.

    I like the idea of a "new" hemi design. I just question the benefit that some of the early posts state. The projected #'s are already there with 2 valve technology. And the 4 valve technology still whups it in HP per liter. So why bother???

    Besides, with moparmad gone and no more misinformation on 4 valve Corvette motors and Chevy Hemis and twisted wedge heads and Boss motors this topic is sort of dead. LOL!!
  • bigsnagbigsnag Posts: 394
    You didn't hear? The new Vette is coming out with a Boss 454. It's going to have forged magnesium 4 valve twisted wedge, high port, hemi heads designed by Robert Yates, himself. It's going to put out just under 7000 horsepower and get 97 mpg, in town.
  • modvptnlmodvptnl Posts: 1,352
    that it's a 4 wheel drive diesel with trailer tow. ROTFLMAO!!!!!!
  • bigsnagbigsnag Posts: 394
    I thought it was going run on "cold" fusion.
  • towcrazy2towcrazy2 Posts: 337
    Any discussion of new engines and more power is ALWAYS interesting... As is Dodge re-entering NASCAR racing.

    Don't know about you all, but speaking for myself, it'll be gratifying to see Chrysler put some bucks into the Winston series... Not that the cars will have anything at all in common with a production vehicle... But it's nice to see Dodge take an attitude shift toward racing again.
  • njt15njt15 Posts: 20
    M-mad, check you history books. The first Hemi was installed as early as 1951 in Dodges and Chryslers. The c.i. of the dodge Red ram was 270 something and the Chrysler - Firepower was a 331 c.i. Then came the 354 hemi and the 392 then the 426 hemi. The 426 hemi is known as the Elephant motor, but the earlier Hemi's are the whale motors. Also, I'm pretty sure that DeSoto also had a Fireflite hemi.
  • moparmadmoparmad Posts: 197
    njt15 Try actually reading the post I said the 354 Hemi was the first Hemi in the 300 series.That is the 300 series of cars.Which started in 1955.
    To the rest...
    I have heard many Chevy guys refer to the 427 as a semi Hemi.I don't know nothing about Chevys and Fords just like most of you know nothing about Mopars.I left this topic because I was tired of talking to people who just argue and don't read.I don't know everything,but I do know a little.Which is more that can be said of some here.I will just take my leave now because I can finally see there is no intelligent conversation to be had here.
  • quark99quark99 Posts: 136
    Hope your awkwardness in the social arena is limited to these boards...geez, no one's perfect, but it sure seems like you got either an insecurity complex or an ego problem. Why not stick around and share some of your mopar knowhow? We are all interested in learning, why else waste time at the keyboard? As far as intelligence goes....well, we all have something to contribute-maybe you could learn something from us, like a little patience.......
  • modvptnlmodvptnl Posts: 1,352
    Chevies have semi hemi heads........wrong

    Fords have twisted wedge heads.....wrong

    New Corvettes have 4 valve heads...wrong

    Chrysler Hemis came after the Ford Hemi.....wrong

    Moparmad, you're right there is no intelligent conversation here. All those "facts" above are wrong.........Oh, they're all from you........nevermind. Sorry you feel we're so dumb.
  • moparmadmoparmad Posts: 197
    Sorry Quark99 that was not meant for you,I have enjoyed your insight.
    Modvptl...You are the one who told me that Ford never made a Hemi,except the 429 Boss.I said that Ford also made Hemi's and called them Boss's,so I was partially right.You are the one who said but it was after Mopar,I never said anything about any of them being first.
    I was told by friends that the 427 Rat was almost a Hemi...wrong or right,don't know don't care.
    Then someone says that the Corvette doesn't have four valve heads,except for the ZR-1.Well,last I knew the ZR-1 was a Corvette,so I was partially right.By the way,if four vavle heads are the last word in performance engines,why doesn't Chevy use them in the new Corvette?Don't get mad,just a question.
    Finally I was making the point that new Fords are not Hemi's as was suggested by another person,I confused the aftermarket Twisted Wedge heads with the stock sue me.If they are a wedge of any kind I guess they are not a Hemi.
    Someone questioned the width point I brought up as to being an ingredient in the demise of the
    Hemi.They mentioned that other big blocks survived after the Hemi.To clarify I was talking about the width of the head itself,not the width of the block.Look into a V6 Daytona and try imagining the valve covers about twice as wide as they are,if you can find them.
    Now for the umteenth time...I am not saying the Hemi is any better than any current head,I'm just saying that it makes the power so what's the problem?Chrysler could have used any head and valve train they wanted,they chose the Hemi.Definately for the marketing aspect,but they must have seen something else there to invest the money in it.Remember,other than us gear heads alot of modern buyers don't know what a Hemi is,and could care less.
  • modvptnlmodvptnl Posts: 1,352
    There's no reason the dialogue can't go on. Don't know why you got upset.

    You had said "Ford had Hemis too(I took that as meaning plural) they called them Bosses....But Dodge took the whole deal just a little farther" I took that as meaning the Dodge came AFTER the Boss 429. If I was mistaken I apologize.

    As for the Corvette the ZR1 four valve motors haven't been produced in 5 years and they produced 60 more horsepower then the current Vette motor and the proposed Hemi. The only reason that was brought up was that the CURRENT 2 valve Corvette motors have numbers favorable to the proposed Hemi, that's all. Why doesn't the Corvette use a 4 valve head? My only thinking on that is at 5.7 L they don't have to yet. As emissions regs tighten up I believe they will be forced to smaller displacements and multi cam/valve technology to make up the difference.(Almost like the demise of the original Hemi!) Please realize that the Ford DOHC 4v 4.6L (a full 70+ cubic inches smaller then the GM LS1) is producing very close power numbers. The DOHC 4V 5.4 Cobra R motor is a limited production vehicle but ALL the parts with the exception of the intake are off the shelf parts. This motor conservatively makes 385 horsepower with estimates as high as 425 HP.

    I haven't read back through all the posts but I think what started this was some people were saying (not you) that because the new Chrysler motor was going to be a Hemi that it automatically was going to stomp all current engines. I just don't see it that way.

    As far as correcting what I thought was misinformation provided by you I try to do it diplomatically, please tell if I didn't and I will "correct" my tone in the future. Your Chrysler knowledge is fun and debate is what I thought made these topics. I don't believe I flamed you and if I did I apologize.
  • njt15njt15 Posts: 20
    You did say first Hemi in a 300. Try not to be so sensative. You are not the only person with knowledge.

    The new Hemi may be for marketing, but it will still have to perform. It is likely being driven by the new owners of Chrysler, the Germans. They seem to like to win in any form of racing that they are in. In fact yesterday I watch the "brutish" Viper leave all the others behind in some road race. It was best, however, to see the Corvette that GM spent millions tweaking to a 7.0l, still be left in the dust. The Vette guy was whining that it was not fair. Hey, GM Vette guy, see NASCAR where Bill France has protected Chevy for about 50 years, (speaking of all the breaks). I believe that the "Elephant" was only allowed for 1 year there.
  • lariat1lariat1 Posts: 461
    Isn't Bill France one of the reasons that the original Chrysler Hemi went away? I remember reading an article in a magazine ( I believe it was car craft) about the Hemi engines and it mentioned that the Hemi was made illegal after one year in NASCAR for reasons I cannot recall, I do remember that the Hemi pretty much kicked everyone butt that year, we can only hope that the new Hemi engines will compete with the already proven engines of today. The article also talked about Fords Hemi engine that they were developing to keep pace with Chrysler, but they scrapped the project after the Hemi head was banned, according to the article the engine was making something like 750 hp before it was shutdown, after that only a few of the engines were made and were only used for dragsters.
  • steve234steve234 Posts: 460
    This discussion may have run its course, but I just recently found it and found some of the information/comments interesting. I suspect that the new D/C hemi has a dual role for Dodge. To invoke the memories of the famous 426 and also as a engine for the new nascar teams. Let's face it, the 360 is a fabulous work engine, but I do not imagine that the builders are thrilled with it as a base for a race car. As to the number of valves, the problem is that increasing the number of valves has several advantages for performance, but increases the complexity of the drive train. Some pundits are saying that in a few years, the traditional valve train will be replaced with solenoid operated valves. No more camshafts or timing belts. This will allow for computer adjustment of the valve timing according to driving conditions. Imagine the discussion that will invoke.
  • superjim2000superjim2000 Posts: 314
    The 'vette has a new engine.....OK new for '97.

    It was created largely due to emmisions. It makes good HP numbers and gets good mileage. This 2 valve engine spawned the new V8 engines in the Silverado. GM spent a ton of money on these engines and they are supposed to be excellent.

    With a 4v head you have an engine that:

    Breathes better

    Has a higher redline.

    It sacrifices mileage for power, but not a whole lot with todays technology.

    Because of the better breathing and higher RPM, it makes more horsepower than a OHV engine. Chevy kept the 350 displacement (OK 347) because who could think of a 'vette without one?

    The hemi was ahead of its time, providing 4v power in a 2v head, or as close to it as was possible at the time.

    Btw....motors are electric, engines burn fuel.
  • steveeaststeveeast Posts: 158
    ...but not when it's an outboard...
  • modvptnlmodvptnl Posts: 1,352
    Sorry but a motor IS NOT just electric. This is from Merriam-Webster Collegiate Dictionary.

    Main Entry: 1mo·tor
    Pronunciation: 'mO-t&r
    Function: noun
    Etymology: Latin, from movEre to move
    Date: 1586
    1 : one that imparts motion; specifically : PRIME MOVER
    2 : any of various power units that develop energy or impart motion: as a : a small compact engine b : INTERNAL COMBUSTION ENGINE; especially : a gasoline engine c : a rotating machine that transforms electrical energy into mechanical energy
    3 : MOTOR VEHICLE; especially : AUTOMOBILE
    - mo·tor·dom /-d&m/ noun
    - mo·tor·less /-l&s/ adjective

    While the LS1 MOTORS are a fresh design I guarantee as emissions tighten up the motors will get smaller with multivalve technology. Interesting how Chevy abandoned the siamesed exhaust valves on the new heads for a more Ford like layout. LOL!!! I asked a question in another topic that no one answered: What is the trophy truck (off road racing) of Team Chevys Larry Ragland running? Answer; a 4.5(not sure what the production motor will be) version of their NEW inline 6 WITH DOHC AND 4 valves per cylinder. So the writing is on the wall IMO.

    Last year NHRA fined Pro Stocks Dodge team (Alderman) for running GM blocks. Aerodynamic testing on the Winston CUP team is being done with ....GULP!!! Chevy motors. Seems they can't get enough power out of the Craftsman Truck motors. This last info was garnered from last months CAR CRAFT. The NHRA info was in the drag racing mag.

    So I agree with Steve, Dodge better do something...Even the mighty V10 is rumored to be going smaller with multi valve technology. We'll see.
  • quadrunner500quadrunner500 Posts: 2,728
    Speaking of power output, the new Corvette R06 puts out 385 hp from the 5.7L LS1, tested in this months Motor Trend. 16 valves, pushrods, still life in the old design.
  • modvptnlmodvptnl Posts: 1,352
    You're correct but did you happen to notice what a "modern" 5.4 motor put out in the same article?

    With the 5.4's bore and stroke(very undersquare) it should naturally be a torquer but with its DOHC 4 valve heads it also has more horsepower giving up 20 cubes. AMAZING!!
  • modvptnlmodvptnl Posts: 1,352
    I also think it's an ls6 now; isn't it??
This discussion has been closed.