Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!


ford250ford250 Posts: 25
edited March 2014 in Dodge
What will Ford, Chevy, & Toyota do when the 5.7
Hemi runs all over you. The Hemi makes 350hp &
400ib-ft of torgue.


  • towcrazy2towcrazy2 Posts: 337
    So... Know of any plans to stuff that hemi into the Dakota Quad???

    Love my 5.9 QC... But the hemi setup might just be too hard to resist!!!
  • bookittybookitty Posts: 1,303
    Tow, every time they come out with a newer and more powerful engine, there are always fools that are ready to rush in to get one. For instance, there's towcrazy2 and bookitty.... are there any more?

  • cdeancdean Posts: 1,110
    What's an underdrive pulley? never heard of that.
  • modvptnlmodvptnl Posts: 1,352
    Underdrive pulleys are very popular performance add ons that reduce the speed of whatever accessory they're installed on. ie: power steering pump, alternator, water pump by changing the diameter of the pulley. On an average 5.0 Mustang motor they've produced as much as 9 horsepower with similar results on the 4.6. Drawbacks include reduced charging (doesn't seem to be a problem on Ford's 130 amp alternator) and the slower water pump sometimes makes a difference in cooling, sometimes it doesn't.
  • s4016s4016 Posts: 12
    got a 97 5.2 2dr sport. Just love it. Cant' wait for that HEMI rocket to come out.
  • cdeancdean Posts: 1,110
    So basically, an underdrive pulley will rob Peter (waterpump, alternator, ps) to pay Paul (rearwheel hp)?

    Makes sense.
  • quark99quark99 Posts: 136
    Quick notes about underdrive pulleys....some vehicle water pumps are driven by the timing belt, so UDP doesn't affect cooling. (Neon) Also, on vehicles with electric fans, UDP installation/engine cooling becomes even less of an issue...What I've read about pros/cons of a UDP:
    If your average commute is less than 25-30 miles, a UDP can (over the long term) cause shortened battery life, due to insufficient alternator rpms. Most vehicles do not have this problem, and even those vehicles with massive stereo systems that put a large load on the charging system don't usually exhibit problems. It has been theorized that accessories (alternator, P/S pump, A/C pump, etc.) actually last longer with a UDP, due to reduced rpms. Most newer vehicles are overdesigned with respect to charging/cooling systems, and in the case of the Quad, I'd suspect that this is also the case. Most of us opted for the heavy-duty service group with larger alternator, so I doubt any problems would surface, unless your normal driving mode includes hours of idling with A/C, lights, stereo, and other current usage...(police or emergency vehicles????) A UDP is a very cost-efficient way to increase power to the rear wheels. Typical cost is around $175-$225, including appropriate drive belt(s). Installation can be done at home, but most opt for the local mechanic at a charge between $50-$75. On my R/T Neon, I chose the biggest reduction UDP I could find (28% reduction), and it definatly gave a noticeable increase in acceleration (gain of about 6-7HP at the wheels). Remember, our vehicles are designed for the "lowest common denominator" driver, and have to survive being left idling for hours in the driveway with lights, fogs, stereo, A/C, laptop plugged in, and any other number of current drawing devices operating....I commute 105 miles a day, so probably a motorcycle battery would eventually recharge itself if I installed into the quad. One other note: aftermarket UDP's are usually substantially lighter than the stock, mass-produced iron pulleys. The lighter pulley is easier for the engine to get up to "spin", (rotational inertia), and some benefit is gained from that aspect also.
  • moparmadmoparmad Posts: 197
    So if the 354 Hemi becomes reality you could buy it to get 350 horse or you could spend about 15000 dollars on your 4.7 to ruin the warranty and gain a hundred theoretical horsepower.
  • towcrazy2towcrazy2 Posts: 337
    Yes... I suppose there will always be fools like us. Isn't it wonderful, though, to be a "kid!?"

    You've definitely got a point regarding the 4.7 being "faster" than the 5.9. Were it not for the fact that I tow a rather substantial load, I certainly would have gone for the 4.7 rather than the 360.

    BUT... Regardless of it's miserable mileage, the 5.9 gives me what I need... Supperior low-end grunt to get that load up to speed, and an "old-fashioned" tranny that's not going to let me down (knock on wood!).

    So MANY ways of squeezing a few more suds out of these motors! Kinda fun, isn't it!!??
  • moparmadmoparmad Posts: 197
    Excuse me I thought that post read 5.7 not 5.9.The 5.7 Hemi prototype(and that is all we got to go by)is an all aluminum mill,and probably lighter than the 4.7L.15000 bucks is what it would cost the average guy who doesn't have your intricate knowledge of superchargers and computer controlled and monitered engines to get someone who does to put all this stuff into his truck.
    Underdrive pulleys don't affect warranties,but if you think Chrysler will warranty lets say your transmission after you add that Paxton huffer then you have totally lost touch with reality.Lets think about this...I manufacture a vehicle with a tranny to match a 230 horsepower engine and some guy comes in and says"Dude this tranny broke in my 475 horse Dakota"what am I gonna say.Exactly..."Sorry buddy read the fine print in that warranty,Doesn't cover problems due to misuse,or modification!"
    With the limited parts available for the 4.7L you will be lucky to come close to 300 horse and retain your warranty,plus everything available for a 4.7L will end up available for the 5.7L.
    I hate to act the prude here,or seem like I don't like the hotrod spirit,truth be known I applaude the effort to create a 4.7L powerhouse,but I just had to interject a little realism...Sorry
  • quadrunner500quadrunner500 Posts: 2,728
    I heard Don Garlitz explain that the beauty of the hemispherical chamber and round top piston was that it let you stick two really big valves in there.

    But in modern high performance engines, the trick is to use 4 or 5 tiny ones, that don't have to open so far, don't need so much duration and overlap. Then use a flat top piston, so the burning charge forces the piston down, instead of inward on itself.

    I think this new hemi will probably be quite different than the original, while hopefully being able to trade on the enthusiast's association with performance.
  • quark99quark99 Posts: 136
    ..on the blower voiding warranty-I was speaking about simpler, less invasive add-ons...on the $15k number, in the Bay Area, many shops will add a Vortech supercharger to your basic V-8 for about $4-6K, including warranty. (yes, that includes, new pump, fuel injection parts, and replacement ECU, if needed..)
    Just a few additional thoughts-for "realism's sake"....
    Proto HP/Torque numbers rarely equate to production. Those gaudy 350HP/400TQ #'s will probably end up closer to 310 HP and 380TQ. Thank OBDIII and emissions controls for that.
    The all-alloy 5.7l proto is unlikely to make production in that configuration. Expect bottom-line DC considerations to recreate the motor as a cast-iron bottom/alloy head engine, like the 4.7l. This alone could account for about a 75lb weight differential. It's likely the main bearings and crank will be significantly larger than the 4.7l. Still, 75lbs is about what a blower and intercooler system would add to the in that sense it's a tossup. In all fairness, if I was building up a Dakota I wouldn't start with a QuadCab, anyway...a regular cab with 5-speed would be a better choice..
  • moparmadmoparmad Posts: 197
    The real beauty of the Hemi is the centrally located spark plug and the valves being inline with the intake charge.True new engines use several small valves to produce the same results as two large ones,but there is no reason why a Hemi can't use multi valves.Ray Barton racing actually offers heads to make a 32 valve Hemi out of your vintage elephant.The efficiency of the Hemi probably makes this unneccessary in a street motor.The downfall of the Hemi was/is that it very expensive to produce.
    The numbers I last seen for the new Hemi were 354 horsepower and 354 ft pounds of torque.
    One quick note...horsepower,and 1/4 mile times mean little to nothing on the street...0-60 times are more indicative of street domination.
  • bigsnagbigsnag Posts: 394
    Everyone's already got them. Have you guys looked at the heads on the new modular motors from Ford? They are all hemi's. Toyota/Lexus has them, too. They aren't that expensive to build or Ford wouldn't have done it. OHC engines, esp DOHC's sort of lend themselves to this type of configuration anyway.
    So moparmad, you're right. There is no reason why a hemi can't use multiple valves. In fact, they already do. It's called the 4.6L Cobra motor, or the 5.4 Navigator motor, or the 4.7L Toyota/Lexus motor. They're everywhere. Hemi's are no longer break through technology known only to Dodge.
  • quadrunner500quadrunner500 Posts: 2,728
    Is that two cars can have identical 0-60 times, yet one is out front of the other. Think about it. It's true, a 1/4 mile is a little long for street domination, but measuring time to a distance is more telling than measuring time to a rate.

    Hemi's had a sperical dome shape to the piston crown. These new multi valve engines use flat top pistons with dished pockets for valve relief, and a centrally located spark plug.
  • bigsnagbigsnag Posts: 394
    The reason hemi's had domed pistons was for compression. A hemi head means it has a hemispherical combustion chamber, which gives you a very large combustion chamber size. In order to run 11:1, back in the day, they had to have domed pistons. These days everything runs from 8:1 to a little over 9:1. There is no need for domed pistons. I'm not sure if we are trying to say the same thing or not.
  • moparmadmoparmad Posts: 197
    Ford had Hemi's in the sixties too they were called Bosses,Chevy did too.But Dodge took the whole deal just a little farther.True that modern engines are a Semi-Hemi,if you want to take the term in it's technical meaning.But most modern engine use a wedge,or in Fords case a twisted wedge design.The Chrysler Hemi as evidenced by the 528 crate motor still uses a dome even at 9.0:1 compression.Yeah all combustion chambers are kinda dome shaped(unless it's a flathead)but it is the depth of the dome that makes it a true Hemi.Wether believe in the Hemi legend or not is secondary to the result produced in the new 5.7 Hemi prototype...350 Horsepower is 350 horsepower no matter what the shape of the chambers.
    Just a little irony for anyone interested...the new Hemi is slated to debut in the Chrysler 300 Hemi C,and is reported to be 354 cu. inches.The first Hemi ever to be used in the Chrysler 300 series was...354 cu. inches.
  • quadrunner500quadrunner500 Posts: 2,728
    What vehicle is Chrysler going to put this hemi engine in? The trucks?

    BTW, Corvette 5.7L makes 345 hp.
  • modvptnlmodvptnl Posts: 1,352
    All the Boss motors were not Hemis. Only the Boss 429 which came out a few years AFTER the Dodge motor. What chevy ever had a hemi head????? Unless you're counting the Rodeck(sp?) heads which have nothing to do with Chevy. The Twisted wedge design is a patented head from TFS which basically rotates the valves off the centerline to unshroud the valves. TFS has no affiliation with Ford. Otherwise all Windsor Ford heads are all inline valves like stock small chevy and dodge heads without the siamese center exhaust valves in the middle which chevy went away from in the LSI motor. Hemi means hemispherical which simply means if the combustion chambers follow a parabolic arc it's a true hemi. If there is a variance in this arc it's a semi-head design. Like the Boss 429 the Hemis do need a lot of dome in the piston to make any compression. Of the new 4 valve heads I know my Cobra is NOT a hemi due to the figure 8 style and almost flat combustion chambers(wish I had a scanner). Sorry for rambling.
  • bigsnagbigsnag Posts: 394
    Here's a picture for you.

    So, no Ford modular engines are not "true" hemi's, but they do have valves on the opposite sides of the chambers, they are canted, a direct path for the fuel/ exhaust charges, a centrally located spark plug, yada yada yada.
    The 5.4 Cobra R engine makes 385 hp.
  • modvptnlmodvptnl Posts: 1,352
    Good pics. Can you find one for a real hemi? You'll see the incredible difference in the chamber as far as the how large the dome is. Also the valves come in at a lot more of an angle.

    Maybe with new technology a new hemi will work. The reason it didn't is I don't believe it's that efficient of a design because of compromises of the piston shape and fell way ward due to lousy fuel and emission laws. If true hemis were superior streetable motors they wouldn't have ever left us.

    In the normally aspirated Pro stock class the motor to beat is the Olds wedge head and even the Chrysler camp when not being busted for running G.M. blocks(true story by the way) doesn't run a hemi and Glidden went back to the Ford wedge dropping the Boss heads due to detonation problems when he was still racing. I know moparmad will come back with top fuel Hemis dominance but remember you're running 30+ pounds of boost on nitromethane on a motor that's basically rebuilt every quarter mile.

    I'm curious about the new Chrysler hemi but it's not some magic potion for ultimate performance.
  • bigsnagbigsnag Posts: 394
    You shall receive. Although this pic sucks, bad.
  • bigsnagbigsnag Posts: 394
    Although this is of an aluminum reproduction, racing type head, but I think we get the picture. Ha ha!!
  • bigsnagbigsnag Posts: 394
    This is a pretty good article, although sans pics.
  • modvptnlmodvptnl Posts: 1,352
    I go for a 3 mile run and you already got the pics!!! Good job Bigsnag. I do believe a lot of the text and pictures confirms what I was saying. I was going to mention pentroof chambers but I didn't know exactly what shape they took. Maybe like the Cobra head???? I have been taught that big valves usually reduce low end torque due to lower velocities. Much like the text said about 4 valve heads. The advantage of a 4 valve head is either variable valve timing (as stated) or in the Cobra's case a split intake tract for low and high speed. Time will tell.
  • bigsnagbigsnag Posts: 394
    Thank ya. Thank ya very much (in my best Elvis accent).
  • bigsnagbigsnag Posts: 394
    As long as we are being technical about everything, let's just clear the air about Dodge's new "Hemi". It won't be a true Hemi, either. It looks like it is going to have combustion chambers like the 4.7 does, which is a semi-hemi. The word "Hemi" is a great marketing tool. Don't think that DC won't milk it for all it's worth. Check out this link for the details.
  • 2drive2drive Posts: 90
    Actually, it was the production costs, not any shortcoming in the efficiency of the design that killed the Hemi. To quote Robert Ackerson's book on the 300, "A long standing indictment of the hemi-head had been it's complexity relative to the wedge-type cylinder head and the resulting high production costs. In time this issue would resurface at Chrysler."
  • moparmadmoparmad Posts: 197
    2Drive I give up with these guys,first they argue that all engines these days are Hemi's.Then they dig out all thier pictures to prove that all engines these days are not Hemi's.All they think they know is that Chrysler is marketing a larger 4.7 and calling it a Hemi.If they thought about this they would realize the obvious flaw in that thinking is that if Chrysler thought the Hemi name would sell they would call everything a Hemi,and certainly the 4.7L.
    O.K. I have dug out my April Mopar Action magazine they say this is an all new mill,it cranks out 354 horsepower at 4000 rpm and 354 ft pounds of torque at 3200 rpm.They also go on to say that this engine replaces the 360 in the trucks and will also power the up coming Charger R/T.It also features dual plugs per cylinder with a coil on plug ignition.
    Finally you knew it was coming...Hemi's aren't used in the mountain motor pro stock classes because a huge domed piston isn't the hot ticket for high revs.Top fuelers run massive boost which require a very high flow cylinder head,otherwise you are just creating lots of useless manifold pressure.And don't fool yourself any of the super serious dragracers tear their motors down after every run.
    I'm not saying that this new mill is the King Elephant reborn,I just think it is a bit closer to a true Hemi than anything we have seen lately.I'm also not saying that a Hemi head is the magical component to performance.I have been a subscriber to Mopar Performance magazine for many years and have found that they are almost always right when it comes to Mopars.They say it is a true Hemi,so I will believe them for now.
This discussion has been closed.