Thanks, so I have been to both Edmunds and Carsdirect before and love the sites. You are saying you can usually beat the carsdirect price from 500 to 1000? Now let me ask this, do carsdirect apply rebates to the target price, or is the target price pre-rebate? Also I do know that some cars are less to insure. Take the civic, number one stolen car and it is also more expensive because it is sportier than a corolla. so the corolla will save me in insurance. however, i am really diggin the Sentra SR. I like that it comes pretty much loaded except for some bells and whistles I dont need. At first I was confused at the lack of price difference in the S and SR model, where everything seems to be equal except for some cosmetic upgrades in the SR, however MSRP is the same. This will probably not be the case in the real market, I assume SR will ultimately go for a higher price (500 or so USDs). So we got one vote for Sentra over the corolla from sanjaysdca. I am saying that when I add power everything and cruise control to a corolla LE the price is within a few hundred dollars to the Sentra SR. Bam, i think the sentra has that race in the bag, safer and a better car. right?
I guess you didn't really tell us much about HOW you're using the car. You say you're going to graduate school soon and won't have much money to play around with...so will you be driving much? Keeping a car 8-10 years means a long-term relationship with it, so make sure you get what you really like/want. If you think you'll need a bigger car in a few years....then it won't matter. IMHO, the Sentra is a better car than the Corolla.
Well for right now, I need it as a commuting car about 40 miles half highway half city driving. I will also need to travel to interviews which will require longer road trips. in graduate school it will probably be used on a regular basis to go back and forth from school, and then on occasions and holidays to travel long distances to visit family and friends. I think I need a rather versatile car and I don't want a strictly commuter car. While money isn't unlimited I have budgeted around the initial investment of about 15k as well as future gas/insurance/maintenance/repair costs. So I guess, if I have a few supporters, the sentra is a better car, is there anything that is comparable to the sentra that is better?
To the poster above who asked about trucks... the F150 lasts forever. It might not be as expensive and fancy as some of those others but it will last for 10 years guaranteed, probably much more with a little maintenance and upkeep.
I'm going to throw a curve ball here and recommend a few you might not have considered:
A used CTS A used G35 A used IS300
All of these can be had in mint condition with under 50K on them for your price range. They are built better, stronger, have more features, more safety equipment, and out-everything a typical econobox. My father for years bought 3-5 year old used semi-luxury cars for new economy prices and the difference was amazing.
An IS300 will last at least 5 years more than a Yaris, so buying "used" isn't a big deal. The CTS is a tank as long as you get the last year or two of the first generation. The G35 sedan is.. Well, there's nothing bad about it that I can find.
Check 'em all out back to back so it's fresh in your mind...you'll know within minutes which cars are keepers and which are not a go...trust me you'll know what you want pretty early on.
The Sandman :sick: :shades:
2023 Hyundai Kona Limited AWD (wife) / 2015 Golf TSI (me) / 2019 Chevrolet Cruze Premier RS (daughter #1) / 2020 Hyundai Accent SE (daughter #2) / 2023 Subaru Impreza Base (son)
Pletko has a great suggestion there...really. You'll get killer features which will put a smile on your face with every drive...a CPO Lexus...killer! Don't limit your choices to new econoboxes, sometimes wish I'd have looked at a used C class or a 325i with the power seat option...much nicer cars than what we all own now. Great idea!!!
The Sandman :sick: :shades:
2023 Hyundai Kona Limited AWD (wife) / 2015 Golf TSI (me) / 2019 Chevrolet Cruze Premier RS (daughter #1) / 2020 Hyundai Accent SE (daughter #2) / 2023 Subaru Impreza Base (son)
I don't think those are good choices for economical, first time car buyers. I think he's in a better ballpark with the Civic, Corolla and Sentra. Much better fuel economy and very cheap when they do need repairs. You can buy them new which will give you better insurance costs too. I am surprised though that you think the Sentra is better than the Versa. I drove the Sentra and was unimpressed, but I loved the Versa CVT. It's so quiet for a small car! You really won't go wrong with any of them. One that is cheaper, though, that you might give a look to, is the Ford Focus.
Kid loves it now but it accelerates from a dead stop painfully slow that I couldn't live with it as a daily driver...no way. We've given this guy so many options now that he'll have to do his homework to decide. All good choices. Good luck!
The Sandman :sick: :shades:
2023 Hyundai Kona Limited AWD (wife) / 2015 Golf TSI (me) / 2019 Chevrolet Cruze Premier RS (daughter #1) / 2020 Hyundai Accent SE (daughter #2) / 2023 Subaru Impreza Base (son)
I am very adamant about getting a fuel economy car. So anything that doesn't get 25 city and 35 highway give or take a few mpg, I am very hesitant to buy. Someone said the versa is a better car than the sentra? Can anyone attest to that. The versa starts off much cheaper than the sentra, but after I load it up with the features I want (most of which are standard in the sentra) the price is about equal. The sentra also has nissan's xtronic cvt. I am really thinking the cvt is a great option. It saves on fuel and would eliminate some of the jerk you feel when shifting gears (granted most car enthusiasts would rate this as a con because the shift "feel" is part of the driving experience).
It's slow until you get to about 25 to 30 mph, then it runs normally. But just to get up to speed is annoying to say the least...my kid finally got used to it. The wife will look in 2011 but without the CVT...not worth it!
The Sandman :sick: :shades:
2023 Hyundai Kona Limited AWD (wife) / 2015 Golf TSI (me) / 2019 Chevrolet Cruze Premier RS (daughter #1) / 2020 Hyundai Accent SE (daughter #2) / 2023 Subaru Impreza Base (son)
If you can drive a manual, that opens a FEW other options, but honestly, you're in a bind. Even most new cars other than diesels don't get 25/35, and those that do are mostly stripped down tin cans. Fuel efficiency aside, I wont drive a tin can. You know, I really don'[t like not having fog lights or ABS standard. Or sometimes even power windows.
All I can think of is maybe a C230K sedan with manual, which averages nearly 30mpg.(small supercharged 4) or a VW TDI, but those are pricey to keep running.
The problem is the sedan as well. If you can handle a coupe or hatchback, it also is a larger list. If you can handle two doors, just get a 2005 Celica. It's the least expensive car to repair and keep running that Totoyta's made in the last 20 or so years(trucks aside - that's a different list) and it gets good MPG.(25/33 *new* MPG, no less). 30mpg combined is a cinch.
>honestly, you're in a bind. Even most new cars other than diesels don't get 25/35, and those that do are mostly stripped down tin cans.> That's just silly. all the cars the poster is considering get that kind of fuel economy (better, actually) and they are not stripped down tin cans. Civics, Corollas, Sentras, all have ABS and standard safety systems and they have power windows too. The point isn't what you would or wouldn't drive but what would be good choices given what the poster has in mind. Fuel economy is an important consideration given that the person will be commuting daily.
Still, those are fairly de-contented strippers at 15K or less. They drive poorly and are just on the wrong side of the value for your dollar equation compared to something a few years old and higher up the car evolutionary chain.
I've driven the 2.0-liter Sentra with the CVT. I didn't have trouble keeping up with city traffic, but the traffic wasn't moving all that quickly. I liked the CVT a lot. It can feel slower than it is, since the engine stays at a constant RPM while you're accelerating.
That's my only beef with the car...the sllooowwww takeoff...I just wanna move already...lol! She got the Arctic Blue color...killer looking car actually but as a daily driver, I'd die for low torque when taking off...I just need more like my Civic which can move if necessary. Still stop & stare at her car as I pull out of the garage...Nissan did real good here! Would go for the sedan SL w/o the CVT.
The Sandman :sick: :shades:
2023 Hyundai Kona Limited AWD (wife) / 2015 Golf TSI (me) / 2019 Chevrolet Cruze Premier RS (daughter #1) / 2020 Hyundai Accent SE (daughter #2) / 2023 Subaru Impreza Base (son)
Ok - I need a new car. My 1995 Corolla (which I love) is getting seriously rusty. All I want is a very reliable car (I hate taking the car in for unscheduled maintenance, and my Corolla has spoiled me, I've gone years with nothing but oil changes), with really good window visibility (characteristic of Toyotas, why doesn't every car have this?), a peppy engine (i.e., not under-powered with responsive acceleration), and reasonably good handling, not much bigger/heavier than my current car. I think I should probably get ESC while I'm at it. Is that too much to ask? 8-} So far, I've seen.
Probably want a 4-dr sedan (for the visibility - coupes don't tend to have it)
-Honda Civic - I had high hopes here based on what I read, but was a little disappointed with the test drive. I could get over how different it drives (distinctive personality), and maybe the small windows (reduced visibility), but when I hit the gas there's a pause before the engine cuts in, which I'm told by the salesperson is because the linkage is electronic. A new feature they're touting this year. No offense, but I think I'll wait until it's a bit more mature and refined.
-Hyundai Elantra - I went in wanting to like this car, but with the headset of "why would I buy this rather than another Corolla". It was a competent Corolla knock-off, but acceleration was sluggish. There was no compelling reason to buy it over the Corolla. BUT, while I was there, I got into a
-Hyundai Accel - I really enjoyed driving this car. It was peppy, good windows, handled very well. However, it's really quite a low-end car, and I suspect over time I'm going to be disappointed with the cheapness of it.
-Corolla - of course I drove one. For some reason, it wasn't as comfortable as my current one (I think the seats are too buckety) but yeah, it generally looked, handled, and drove like a Corolla, little has changed in 15 years, and it may be where I end up. Except, I don't want to 8-{ - because of 2 reasons: 1) Although I don't expect my car to "take off" on me, I am concerned that Toyota has made some general acknowledgments of declining quality in the last few years. These are reflected in the CU ratings, and so maybe it won't be as reliable as I want. 2) I'm in my early 50s, and this car will take me to my mid-late 60s, I want to at least try to find something a little different and fun (that also (sigh) meets all my other criteria). I'm also concerned about widespread web postings about problems with the electronic steering.
My mechanic won't let me look at Nissan's. He says they're designed for easy construction but very time consuming to repair (you have to do too much disassembly). I'm thinking of checking out the Impreza, but it seems bigger and heavier than I'd like (and doesn't AWD imply more maintenance? although it probably would be a plus since I live in New England). I think I should also check out the Mazda-3.
I'm avoiding hybrids for now because I tend to keep my cars much longer than the battery warranties (I drive only 5-7K mi/yr). But maybe I should compromise if there's a car that meets my other criteria. Is there?
Also - I know that I'm ignoring the luxury models, but I can't bring myself to my $27K and up for a car when there are some perfectly acceptable models available for $16-18K (and, geez, they're like giving Toyotas away around here lately).
So I don't know what to do. So I'm asking for suggestions. Want to buy by June.
One other suggestion is the new Kia Forte - this is an updated version of the Hyundai Elantra.
156HP base engine, lots of convenience and safety features, killer warranty ... all for around $15K. I was looking at the EX model just last week and got a couple of quotes for under $15,5K pretty easily. The LX model is even less expensive.
Good luck and let us know how the search goes and what you end up getting.
First off, mos tof the issues that you have can be solved with most vehicles by just getting one with a manual transmission. But of course you don't want it to be a rubbery and useless mess of a gearbox, either. If it has to be an automatic, then you should look at RWD sedans first and stuff like you have been looking at last, because nobody really WANTS to drive a soulless jellybean econobox.
My suggestion would be to go up a size and get a better car with a V6 engine a couple of years old. This would greatly expand your choices to things like the TSX, the previous generation CTS, a Lexus IS (I'd personally get a 2005 IS300, actually as it has none of the present drive-by-wire issues) and so on, and of course, mainstream cars like the Accord. Though, as far as Honda goes, I'd avoid Honda and Toyota and get the Mazda. Nearly identical cars in the way that they drive and their features, but the prices used are far more attractive with the Mazda.
Mazda also has incentives and deals and cheaper parts. The last time I got a Toyota part from the dealer, it was literally the same price range as my Volvo I had a few years ago. Great cars, but wow - Toyota isn't cheap to fix any more. They're clearly gouging quite a bit from what I can tell. Now, to be fair, most of them are. But Mazda seems to be a bit more reasonable. Well, at least currently.
IMO, though, there is a real "sleeper" in the mix that fits all of the criteria and is affordable. Take a look at a 1 year old certified Pontiac G8. This is actually a Holden from Australia and is every bit as well made and well designed as any European sedan. It doesn't look, drive, or feel like any GM car that you've ever seen. They still sell it in Australia and it is the #1 midsize sedan there. I'd rate it as nearly equal to the CTS in overall quality, and GM's 2nd best car to date. Kind of a idiot move, IMO, that they stopped selling it in 2009, but that just means you can get a 30K car for 20K or less, certified.
My only personal issue was the lack of manual transmission, but they are inexpensive used and between it and a Corolla or Civic, well, it's no contest. A car with $5K+ more materials in it will come out ahead every time, just like how the TSX is a better car than the Civic.
http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?ct=c&car_id=273391589 Certified and something I'd take in a heartbeat over a similarly priced Corolla.(after the new car registration fees and other nonsense with the Toyota, not a lot of price difference, actually)
I'm just not a fan of tiny econoboxes any more given the insane number of large turcks and SUVs out there. Unless it's a special model made to get 40mpg, most midsize sedans have no problems at all in getting 3-4mpg less than their tiny economy counterparts. Some get nearly identical MPG highway, in fact. This is something Ford and GM are known for, actually - a very tall overdrive gear. 30mpg in a Buick isn't uncommon on long trips. Plus, it's nice to have, as you mentioned, things like traction control/ESC, leather, and so on. Stripped down economy cars tend to be feature and safety poor compared to their larger midsize siblings.
Thanks for the input.. I can look at the Kia - I didn't realize it was a twin of the Elantra - if it was, why would it be such lower rated in Consumer Reports? A larger car gives me more choices, except, I don't want a larger car. 8-] I also -do- want something new, and a 4-speed auto trans, FWD is a requirement (I'm in New England) I will take a fresh look at the Honda Fit - thanks. I think I'd rather not buy a restyled/re-done Ford (or any car) until it's been out a year (reliability concerns). One problem around here is the paucity of dealers for the 2nd tier makes. I don't want to have to drive 2hr round trip whenever it needs to see a dealer.... [that's why I cater to my mechanic's preferences - he's good, and very nearby 8-}] thanks - keep the input comin' /j
How about a Ford Fusion? A tad larger than the latest Corolla, but not by much since the Corolla has ballooned compared to your 1995 model! 2010 Fusion is a "redesign" but fairly mild cosmetic stuff. Nothing major and these seem to have good reviews all around. I've had a few as rentals and probably one of the more impressive cars I've had recently. Quite frankly, I find the Corolla horrible to drive so can't imagine you'd be disappointed, but everyone has different tastes.
If you're only driving 5-7k/year, I'd pick up a 1-year old Fusions (or Corolla, or whatever) and save a bundle. Keep what you saved for any repairs and you'll be golden. Considering you'll never hit the mileage part of the warranty anyway....1 year reduction isn't going to amount to anything.
You sound like my mother, then. She is about the same age and wants a good vehicle that's smaller and more agile by a bit, reliable, and all of the rest. So it's really been narrowed down to a few choices.
Certified with a warranty is in no way a problem. You get a warranty and save 5-10K in depreciation. And it still likely has a lot of that "new car" smell. Actually that's unhealthy benzene and other volatile chemicals out-gassing - let the other person get cancer as well as eat the initial depreciation.
EDIT: Actually, I'm not entirely joking. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_car_smell - CPO is a smart move in terms of taxes, insurance, depreciation, lower payments, and your health.
1: The new TSX. It's about the same size as a Civic(based upon the same platform) but it's just simply amazing in the levels of features and little touches that it has over anything else in its price range other than maybe Mercedes, Audi, and Volvo. Just, it has Honda quality. Win-win scenario. And the rear window is easy to see out of unlike the Civic. Get a CPO or Program vehicle 2009 model with 10-15K on it. $20-22K - a bit over your budget, but worth it. You'll never regret it.
2: If you want something smaller, like a Fit, then the best choice for really small is a VW Golf/etc. I have a friend who has one and it's been a fantastically reliable and cheap ride that literally runs circles around the Fit in handling, speed, and features. As long as you avoid the turbocharged engines, you'll be fine. Interesting note - they do make a luxury Fit in Japan that's decked out like an Acura would be over here. The Fit we get over here is too spartan and "econobox" as a result of them not wanting to cannibalize Aura's sales of the TSX.
3: The last choice is also a midsize car. I'd have rated it as #1 before Toyota's problems. But you can get one 1-2 years old with nearly no miles on it for dirt cheap as a result. It's the IS250. It's basically a luxury Corolla with a bigger engine and a ton of extra goodies. I'd rather get a nearly new IS250 than a Corolla for the same money. No contest at all.
4: Now, as a bonus for those who want RWD and.or manual, my top picks are the previous generation CTS and the G35 Sedan. If you want smaller and sporty and yet capable of handing with the Euro crowd in terms of speed and handling, these are awesome cars. note - I'm not a fan of the new CTS - too large and visibility issues - it's really not a car I'd have fun with on a mountain road or on a track day.
The G35, OTOH, is stunning. I tried and honestly can't find a single thing wrong with it. I drove a BMW 5 series and all I could find myself saying was things like "it doesn't have X like the G35" and "Why is this done this way(unlike the G35)". And it looks good, too. There actually are also color choices other than beige, silver, white, and black. :P (the new blue color is fantastic, btw)
Thanks - I wasn't really looking for new vs. used advice (I still consider used cars a bit of a crapshoot - may have cosmetic issues, you never know what the last owner did to it - and if no one else felt that way they would sell for more). The TSX looks interesting except it's bigger than I'm looking for and 2x what I think I need to spend. The VWs don't seem to be as highly rated, but I can have a look. I looked at the small Lexuses, but really, what are you getting? the engineering is just as good and the price is double. I just can't see spending $30K on a car when I can get something fine for $20K.
I've heard some about the Ford Fusion - just trying to accept that there's such a thing as a reliable American car (actually, CU doesn't rate it that high for reliability...)
I wonder if there's a really small Acura. I suppose a 1-year old Accura or LS-250 might be worth a look, if they're really much cheaper than new (are they?)
I was going to look at the Fit today, but what really ticks me off about it (as well as the Civic) is that you have to buy the most tricked-out model (including navigation system, which I have no use for), in order to get ESC. That headset has me wanting to boycott Honda on general principle, since everyone else (Toyota, Hyundai, Suburu, Mazda, etc) now makes ESC std. on their small cars.
Regardless, I think you're really limiting your options by worrying so much about reliability. You're going to have warranty for 3-4 years because you'll never hit the mileage limit. Most any car today can go 100k without many issues and if you look at the raw data...the difference between the best and worst reliable vehicle is only a couple issues crossing three years (assuming normal miles!). Will it really ruin your life to have one or two repairs in 3 years assuming the worst of the bunch?
For someone driving 30-40k miles a year reliability can be a big deal. I used to drive that and at one point bought one of the worst rated vehicles (a VW) and put 200k miles on it with very little drama. The point is...if you really like something and it meets your needs...why sweat it over reliability? You have a good mechanic, you don't drive much, and the real kick in the teeth is you could just as easily buy the most reliable vehicle made and end up with a lemon. It's very painful when you compromise and buy something based on reliability and it turns out to be a heap!
Used cars outsell new ones by boatloads. New cars have a limited supply and they still incentivize the crap out of them to move what they build. If I can find what I want with low miles and decent shape, I'll take a used one any day over a new one. The savings is quite big in the scheme of things and if you go with a CPO you'll end up with more warranty. I recently was shopping for a new SUV and settled on a Pathfinder. Could have bought a slightly used CPO model from a dealer with 7 years of warranty for about $6,000 less than a new one. I ended up buying from a private seller (and not getting the CPO) but saved even more. It doesn't have as good of a reliabity rating as my other option (the 4Runner) but I like it more so I guess I don't care.
The issues with the Fit are exactly why you buy a CPO upper-scale car. You spend nearly 20K for a loaded and nice car, but in the end, it's still an economy car and by then, isn't really "economy" in price.
And, yes, you can get a $30K car for $20K that still has a warranty as good as brand new. The CPO warranty generally extends the new one another 1-2 years. Most vehicles have so little wear on it that it might as well be new. I know of one local dealership that meticulously cleans the interiors and goes over every inch of the car to the point where it looks and feels like new. They actually take out the seats to clean the carpets among other things.
Now, not all dealerships are like that, so you have to shop around, of course, but I have seen some vehicles that literally don't have a single ding or scratch on them (usually dealer owned or program cars) and yet there's that massive price difference staring you in the face.
A bit more about cars... :P
You'll likely hate Ford, from what you've been saying. Your top choice probably would be a Mercedes or Volvo if it weren't for reliability and repair cost issues that are typical of the European luxury cars. The Ford Fiesta is coming out soon, but it's a love it or hate it experience and honestly quite a bit overpriced as well. Ford's trick of selling a $15K car with $10K in options is all too common in the industry now.
Thanks - it's really inconvenient for me to lose a car for a day (or two, or 3, as my mechanic is usually backlogged), and it's REALLY inconvenient to have to take it to a dealer because there are none within 30 min of my home (so it's 2 1-hour drives with 2 cars, one to drop-off and one to pickup).
And to be honest, I'm spoiled, my Corolla went years between needing anything more than an oil change. 8-}
But, ok, I'll stop by a Lexus dealership and check out used. (there's exactly -one- dealer within reasonable driving distance (sigh). (I'd check out Acura as well, but I don't see that Acura makes anything as small as the Civic) (UPDATE: 2-year old Lexus's are still $27-28K - can't justify the difference over a Corolla or Matrix (or Scion))
And you're right, i'd look closer at the european cars if they were cheaper/less painful to own.
still - I suppose if I fell in love with something less reliable, I'd give it a 2nd look (I DID like the Accent, but the CU "I'd buy again" was really low - and I think -that- should mean something...).
You should also take into consideration more than just selling price when buying. You'll find some dealers have much better service facilities along with free loaners so service becomes far less of an issue. I'm also a considerable distance from anything but a Ford/Chevy/Dodge shop so that's a part of what I look for when shopping a dealer. Most of the luxury brands will give you a loaner for oil changes. Some will drive to you home and pickup the car and leave you a loaner. There are also some lower-end dealers which will do this. I end up driving an extra 15 minutes to the Toyota/Honda dealers we have used because they give free loaners. My wife drives a Lexus and the service is top-shelf but she paid for that on the front end for sure!
The reason you likely never needed more than oil changes on your old Corollas was because you never drove it! I have a relative that drives very little and she has a '98 Malibu which has a horrible reliability rating. She bought the car with 20k miles in '99 as an off-rental unit and now has 75k miles. She's made two repairs since buying it. No rust either but that's something Toyota is known for and doesn't seem to hit the reliability radars....
Yeah, you have to go three years old with Lexus or wait until next fall. The real steal, though, is the TSX. It comes in at 30K, which is the lowest price in its segment, and it has the highest level of standard equipment from what I can tell.
This TSX is only $23K. The economy is rough for a lot of dealerships and this is the reality for most of them - they aren't making huge profits any more on used vehicles.
Here's a Civic EX-L, no Nav, automatic: CarsDirect Price: $20,285 Plus 1-3K in first time registration "luxury tax"(aka first year DMV fees)
Not sure why people keep recommending the TSX - it's -not- a small car - weighs more than our Dodge Caravan. I've heard rumors that some places in the country, dealerships are friendly accommodating places. Not in MA, not foreign car dealers, unless you're willing to pay $100 to get your oil changed, or $500 to replace your brakes.
I do drive my car - a lot, every day, on local, curvy, bumpy roads. I suspect I give it as much, or more, wear as someone with 5x the mileage if most of that mileage is highway.
I drove the Fit tonight - I liked it, but it really sticks in my craw to have to either buy the top model, with a nav system i will never use, just to get ESC. Maybe I don't really need ESC but it's the principle. Also checked out the scion Xd and Yari. Yari is very basic, and scion - well, it is like a badly-designed van, with huge blind spots (on the other hand, the new prius has a huge black bar across the middle of the rear window - what were they thinking?). I'm (god help me) still going to visit the lexus dealer soon, and take another corolla test drive, maybe I can learn to like it 8-}.. Thanks for the other shopping tips. Keep 'em comin'
/j
(ps - to sit in a scion I had to go way out in their lot. none in the show room - they're the only scion dealer for 50 miles in any direction and they only sell them on request - tells you something...
Well you said "I drive only 5-7K mi/yr". That's between 30%-50% of the national average so it's pretty low in terms of aging a vehicle. Now if that 5-7k miles is all sitting in heavy traffic then you'll have a "high hour" vehicle that will certainly not last as long as a highway car. But just normal driving around, even if the roads are rough, should not cause any serious extra wear. We drive 10 miles to the nearest town out some pretty rough roads and beyond shocks and tires I don't notice any additional wear to our vehicles from that type of driving. Wife's GX470 is extremely tight with 140k miles although it needed a trans-axle to the tune of $1,500.
You mentioned checking out Subaru as well and you might really like the Impreza. They're more like old-school Toyotas than the new Toyotas but you get AWD and a nice pile of safety features. There's more to break on them but I wouldn't sweat that. Of course Subaru is more common in NE than most anything. I once read they sell some crazy percentage of their vehicles in NE.
I've been wavering on the impreza - all you say is true, but after the corolla (which always gave me a true 27-30mpg) its a jump to get a car with no better MPG than our Caravan, still, if I like the drive..... ok, i'll check one out 8-}
However - I'm skipping the lexus, even the I250 is a big car, bigger and heavier than the Mazda3, and no FWD option (only AWD at significant premium - this is New England - cannot have RWD)
Now , the impreza is only slightly smaller/lighter than the mazda 3 - you guys keep pushing the bigger, heavier cars - 8-}
RWD has never been an issue with me in snow, but well, maybe that's just me.
I mention the TSX as it's among the smallest of the premium vehicles out there other than the small junk from Mercedes and BMW. Yes, they are lovely to look at, and drive very well, but the quality isn't there until you get to their upper-end vehicles.
I do know that if you want high quality and small, you have to either sacrifice low cost, back seats(or usable ones at least), or the automatic transmission. The only other choice that I can see as a potential option might be... See, I'm essentially drawing a blank as all of the other good small luxury cars are only sold in Europe or Japan.
That said, the Sentra and Mazda 3 are better values for the money than the Toyota and Honda.
I would personally just get another Corolla. It has spoiled you enough for a 2nd chance. But definatly check out the....
VW Golf - People rave about them, and it looks and drives nice to boot!
Mazda 3 - A fun to drive vehicle definatly worth a look.
Upcoming Chevrolet Cruze - A small car with a very nice interior and you will lose your luggage in its massive trunk.
Upcoming Ford Focus - I don't know much about this one but it may win you over.
Also i noticed you said you didn't want a 1st year vehicle because its kinks haven't been worked out yet. Allthough i don't know about the Ford i can tell you that the Cruze has already been out for abit (i don't know exactly how long) in other contries.
I am looking to purchase a new SUV to replace my Odyssey Minivan. Minivan is great, but I am ready to move on to something a bit less "soccer momish" I have three growing boys so I definately need something with 3 rows that provide enough room for long legs. We also travel a lot so I need something that provides ample storage behind the 3rd row. I have been looking online for months but haven't found that perfect SUV that would fit my needs. I love the QX 56, but gas mileage is horrible.
It's tough to beat a minivan in terms of comfort/cargo. We traded a Suburban for our Odyssey. But if image is the issue then obviously there's a compromise there somewhere. As you've noticed, it's only the biggest of the utes that can come close to offering the 3rd row space and cargo capacity. A bit of a compromise with slightly less cargo space and 3rd row room, would be the GM triplets (Enclave/Traverse/Acadia) or the Honda Pilot. Those are close in size to the truck-based SUV's but built on car platforms (Odyssey in the Pilot's case) and have less tow-worthy engines. I really like the Enclave myself and while it's not quite to minivan level of utility/space, it's not bad.
I hate to break the news to you, but SUVs are just as soccer momish as minvans. I checked on this some time ago with my late teen, early 20s kids and they confirmed that SUV = mom-mobile. It was long ago, 1997, but we went with a second minvan after having considered alternatives such as full size van or Suburban. Those other options were just too gargantuan and costly.
A co-worker had his teenage son recently suggesting a Ford Flex to his parents (currently they have an Oddyssey), so I guess that would potentially project the desired non-mom-mobile image. I don't know anything about the vehicle, but it does appear to get minvan-lke mpg.
Flex is a nice and attractive vehicle IMHO but there is NO space behind the 3rd row. Same problem as 90% of the vehicles with 3rd rows. They're great for hauling 6-7 people as long as those people have nothing to bring along with them!
I see the TSX is the smallest of the category - but not small enough, I think. as far as FWD/RWD - I don't know where you live, but RWD is definitely a drawback for the snowy icey winters here.
I was looking for a huge SUV once apon a time also. Traverse is the best budget SUV you can find and Chevrolet Tahoe always seems to be rated at or near the top.
However there is also the
Chevrolet Suburban, GMC Acadia, Buick Enclave, Ford Expedition, Toyota Sequoia, GMC Yukon, Mazda CX-9, Nissan Armada, and the Jeep Commander.
There may be a few more that have 3 rows but if you want a juggernaut of a SUV here are your choices.
The TSX is built on the Civic platform, much like how the IS250 is on the Corolla - just with a LOT of changes to the interior and external body panels. Anyways - drive both and see if one pushes your happy buttons
My sister a couple of years ago had her choice down to a Civic or the Mazda 3. I went over every spec, every option, and every last detail. They actually are near clones of each other aside from the visual differences. But you can get a Mazda 3 for a coupe of thousand less than a Civic if you're shopping for program or 1 year old certified vs new. The Sentra is also a better car than the Corolla for that reason as well. Slightly faster depreciation and quality is just as good. Actually, better, since the Sentra doesn't have the (potentially defective) throttle control system that all Toyotas now have had since ~2006.
My choice would be to get something with a manual transmission because of the better MPG, lower cost, and sportier driving. Most of the problems, in fact, that cars these days are having is from the overly complex automatic transmissions. Case in point - the Mercedes C class is a disaster repair-wise, but if you get one with absolutely nothing electronic on it - no sunroof, no nav, no anything - and manual, it'll last you a decade or more without any major issues.
I never asked if manual was a possible option, though. If it is, though, it opens up a whole other range of small and fun cars.
***** Concerning the SUV question/post:
If you only have three or four passengers, you might also consider a full size sedan. Even an old Crown Vic gets better highway MPG than most SUVs, and something large like an Avalon or Cadillac DTS will get nearly 30mpg on long trips. Plus have a massive trunk. And it's certainly more classy as well as handles better than a typical minivan.
(edit - of course get one 2-3 year old, Certified. A Grand Marquis, for instance, 2 years old can be had for almost 60% of its new cost)
MPG: 15 City / 23 Hwy - EPA - actually gets a consistent 25mpg highway according to most owners, due to a very tall overdrive gear. Not bad for a big V8. 292HP, btw.
A 2008 Sienna V6 minivan, btw, gets 17/23. Almost 100HP less than the DTS. A 2008 4Runner V6 gets 16/20 mpg. Same story. Too small of an engine for the weight, so it actually works too hard and MPG suffers.
If we're talking V6 large sedans, though, 18/28 is extremely typical with 30mpg on cruise control being possible. My father has an older Park Avenue as an example and we can easily fit five full sized adults in it. I personally hate driving it, but it's worlds better than the minivan I last rented on a trip with my relatives. Tons of space but no power, no features, miserable handling.. the worst of all worlds rolled into one massive compromise - just to fit 7 people.
Another solution to the no space behind the 3rd row problem, which we used when we had a non-grand minivan, is a car top carrier. There are also those shelf things that can be put on a trailer hitch or even a small trailer as other options.
Comments
A used CTS
A used G35
A used IS300
All of these can be had in mint condition with under 50K on them for your price range. They are built better, stronger, have more features, more safety equipment, and out-everything a typical econobox. My father for years bought 3-5 year old used semi-luxury cars for new economy prices and the difference was amazing.
An IS300 will last at least 5 years more than a Yaris, so buying "used" isn't a big deal. The CTS is a tank as long as you get the last year or two of the first generation. The G35 sedan is.. Well, there's nothing bad about it that I can find.
Let someone else eat the depreciation.
The Sandman :sick: :shades:
2023 Hyundai Kona Limited AWD (wife) / 2015 Golf TSI (me) / 2019 Chevrolet Cruze Premier RS (daughter #1) / 2020 Hyundai Accent SE (daughter #2) / 2023 Subaru Impreza Base (son)
The Sandman :sick: :shades:
2023 Hyundai Kona Limited AWD (wife) / 2015 Golf TSI (me) / 2019 Chevrolet Cruze Premier RS (daughter #1) / 2020 Hyundai Accent SE (daughter #2) / 2023 Subaru Impreza Base (son)
'24 Chevy Blazer EV 2LT
The Sandman :sick: :shades:
2023 Hyundai Kona Limited AWD (wife) / 2015 Golf TSI (me) / 2019 Chevrolet Cruze Premier RS (daughter #1) / 2020 Hyundai Accent SE (daughter #2) / 2023 Subaru Impreza Base (son)
The Sandman :sick: :shades:
2023 Hyundai Kona Limited AWD (wife) / 2015 Golf TSI (me) / 2019 Chevrolet Cruze Premier RS (daughter #1) / 2020 Hyundai Accent SE (daughter #2) / 2023 Subaru Impreza Base (son)
All I can think of is maybe a C230K sedan with manual, which averages nearly 30mpg.(small supercharged 4) or a VW TDI, but those are pricey to keep running.
The problem is the sedan as well. If you can handle a coupe or hatchback, it also is a larger list. If you can handle two doors, just get a 2005 Celica. It's the least expensive car to repair and keep running that Totoyta's made in the last 20 or so years(trucks aside - that's a different list) and it gets good MPG.(25/33 *new* MPG, no less). 30mpg combined is a cinch.
How will people know how kewl I am if I don't drive my fogs 24/7 ???? It's, like, what I am, ya know?
:sick:
That's just silly. all the cars the poster is considering get that kind of fuel economy (better, actually) and they are not stripped down tin cans. Civics, Corollas, Sentras, all have ABS and standard safety systems and they have power windows too. The point isn't what you would or wouldn't drive but what would be good choices given what the poster has in mind. Fuel economy is an important consideration given that the person will be commuting daily.
'24 Chevy Blazer EV 2LT
The Sandman :sick: :shades:
2023 Hyundai Kona Limited AWD (wife) / 2015 Golf TSI (me) / 2019 Chevrolet Cruze Premier RS (daughter #1) / 2020 Hyundai Accent SE (daughter #2) / 2023 Subaru Impreza Base (son)
Probably want a 4-dr sedan (for the visibility - coupes don't tend to have it)
-Honda Civic - I had high hopes here based on what I read, but was a little disappointed with the test drive. I could get over how different it drives (distinctive personality), and maybe the small windows (reduced visibility), but when I hit the gas there's a pause before the engine cuts in, which I'm told by the salesperson is because the linkage is electronic. A new feature they're touting this year. No offense, but I think I'll wait until it's a bit more mature and refined.
-Hyundai Elantra - I went in wanting to like this car, but with the headset of "why would I buy this rather than another Corolla". It was a competent Corolla knock-off, but acceleration was sluggish. There was no compelling reason to buy it over the Corolla. BUT, while I was there, I got into a
-Hyundai Accel - I really enjoyed driving this car. It was peppy, good windows, handled very well. However, it's really quite a low-end car, and I suspect over time I'm going to be disappointed with the cheapness of it.
-Corolla - of course I drove one. For some reason, it wasn't as comfortable as my current one (I think the seats are too buckety) but yeah, it generally looked, handled, and drove like a Corolla, little has changed in 15 years, and it may be where I end up. Except, I don't want to 8-{ - because of 2 reasons: 1) Although I don't expect my car to "take off" on me, I am concerned that Toyota has made some general acknowledgments of declining quality in the last few years. These are reflected in the CU ratings, and so maybe it won't be as reliable as I want. 2) I'm in my early 50s, and this car will take me to my mid-late 60s, I want to at least try to find something a little different and fun (that also (sigh) meets all my other criteria). I'm also concerned about widespread web postings about problems with the electronic steering.
My mechanic won't let me look at Nissan's. He says they're designed for easy construction but very time consuming to repair (you have to do too much disassembly). I'm thinking of checking out the Impreza, but it seems bigger and heavier than I'd like (and doesn't AWD imply more maintenance? although it probably would be a plus since I live in New England). I think I should also check out the Mazda-3.
I'm avoiding hybrids for now because I tend to keep my cars much longer than the battery warranties (I drive only 5-7K mi/yr). But maybe I should compromise if there's a car that meets my other criteria. Is there?
Also - I know that I'm ignoring the luxury models, but I can't bring myself to my $27K and up for a car when there are some perfectly acceptable models available for $16-18K (and, geez, they're like giving Toyotas away around here lately).
So I don't know what to do. So I'm asking for suggestions. Want to buy by June.
Thanks very much!
/j
156HP base engine, lots of convenience and safety features, killer warranty ... all for around $15K. I was looking at the EX model just last week and got a couple of quotes for under $15,5K pretty easily. The LX model is even less expensive.
Good luck and let us know how the search goes and what you end up getting.
First off, mos tof the issues that you have can be solved with most vehicles by just getting one with a manual transmission. But of course you don't want it to be a rubbery and useless mess of a gearbox, either. If it has to be an automatic, then you should look at RWD sedans first and stuff like you have been looking at last, because nobody really WANTS to drive a soulless jellybean econobox.
My suggestion would be to go up a size and get a better car with a V6 engine a couple of years old. This would greatly expand your choices to things like the TSX, the previous generation CTS, a Lexus IS (I'd personally get a 2005 IS300, actually as it has none of the present drive-by-wire issues) and so on, and of course, mainstream cars like the Accord. Though, as far as Honda goes, I'd avoid Honda and Toyota and get the Mazda. Nearly identical cars in the way that they drive and their features, but the prices used are far more attractive with the Mazda.
Mazda also has incentives and deals and cheaper parts. The last time I got a Toyota part from the dealer, it was literally the same price range as my Volvo I had a few years ago. Great cars, but wow - Toyota isn't cheap to fix any more. They're clearly gouging quite a bit from what I can tell. Now, to be fair, most of them are. But Mazda seems to be a bit more reasonable. Well, at least currently.
IMO, though, there is a real "sleeper" in the mix that fits all of the criteria and is affordable. Take a look at a 1 year old certified Pontiac G8. This is actually a Holden from Australia and is every bit as well made and well designed as any European sedan. It doesn't look, drive, or feel like any GM car that you've ever seen. They still sell it in Australia and it is the #1 midsize sedan there. I'd rate it as nearly equal to the CTS in overall quality, and GM's 2nd best car to date. Kind of a idiot move, IMO, that they stopped selling it in 2009, but that just means you can get a 30K car for 20K or less, certified.
My only personal issue was the lack of manual transmission, but they are inexpensive used and between it and a Corolla or Civic, well, it's no contest. A car with $5K+ more materials in it will come out ahead every time, just like how the TSX is a better car than the Civic.
http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?ct=c&car_id=273391589
Certified and something I'd take in a heartbeat over a similarly priced Corolla.(after the new car registration fees and other nonsense with the Toyota, not a lot of price difference, actually)
I'm just not a fan of tiny econoboxes any more given the insane number of large turcks and SUVs out there. Unless it's a special model made to get 40mpg, most midsize sedans have no problems at all in getting 3-4mpg less than their tiny economy counterparts. Some get nearly identical MPG highway, in fact. This is something Ford and GM are known for, actually - a very tall overdrive gear. 30mpg in a Buick isn't uncommon on long trips. Plus, it's nice to have, as you mentioned, things like traction control/ESC, leather, and so on. Stripped down economy cars tend to be feature and safety poor compared to their larger midsize siblings.
I would also look at the Focus ... there is a new one due out any day now, I think, though. And the Fiesta is on its way, too.
I don't know about this Nissan issue your mechanic describes. I certainly didn't see such an issue with my 350Z or G35.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
I can look at the Kia - I didn't realize it was a twin of the Elantra - if it was, why would it be such lower rated in Consumer Reports?
A larger car gives me more choices, except, I don't want a larger car. 8-] I also -do- want something new, and a 4-speed auto trans, FWD is a requirement (I'm in New England)
I will take a fresh look at the Honda Fit - thanks.
I think I'd rather not buy a restyled/re-done Ford (or any car) until it's been out a year (reliability concerns).
One problem around here is the paucity of dealers for the 2nd tier makes. I don't want to have to drive 2hr round trip whenever it needs to see a dealer....
[that's why I cater to my mechanic's preferences - he's good, and very nearby 8-}]
thanks - keep the input comin'
/j
If you're only driving 5-7k/year, I'd pick up a 1-year old Fusions (or Corolla, or whatever) and save a bundle. Keep what you saved for any repairs and you'll be golden. Considering you'll never hit the mileage part of the warranty anyway....1 year reduction isn't going to amount to anything.
Certified with a warranty is in no way a problem. You get a warranty and save 5-10K in depreciation. And it still likely has a lot of that "new car" smell. Actually that's unhealthy benzene and other volatile chemicals out-gassing - let the other person get cancer as well as eat the initial depreciation.
EDIT: Actually, I'm not entirely joking.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_car_smell - CPO is a smart move in terms of taxes, insurance, depreciation, lower payments, and your health.
http://www.healthystuff.org/departments/cars/product.bestworstcars.php
This is a site dedicated to this sort of research. It unfortunately seems to be very make and make specific with no patterns. Some Hondas, for instance, are good, others are horrendous.
Anyways, on to the cars...
1: The new TSX. It's about the same size as a Civic(based upon the same platform) but it's just simply amazing in the levels of features and little touches that it has over anything else in its price range other than maybe Mercedes, Audi, and Volvo. Just, it has Honda quality. Win-win scenario. And the rear window is easy to see out of unlike the Civic. Get a CPO or Program vehicle 2009 model with 10-15K on it. $20-22K - a bit over your budget, but worth it. You'll never regret it.
2: If you want something smaller, like a Fit, then the best choice for really small is a VW Golf/etc. I have a friend who has one and it's been a fantastically reliable and cheap ride that literally runs circles around the Fit in handling, speed, and features. As long as you avoid the turbocharged engines, you'll be fine. Interesting note - they do make a luxury Fit in Japan that's decked out like an Acura would be over here. The Fit we get over here is too spartan and "econobox" as a result of them not wanting to cannibalize Aura's sales of the TSX.
3: The last choice is also a midsize car. I'd have rated it as #1 before Toyota's problems. But you can get one 1-2 years old with nearly no miles on it for dirt cheap as a result. It's the IS250. It's basically a luxury Corolla with a bigger engine and a ton of extra goodies. I'd rather get a nearly new IS250 than a Corolla for the same money. No contest at all.
4: Now, as a bonus for those who want RWD and.or manual, my top picks are the previous generation CTS and the G35 Sedan. If you want smaller and sporty and yet capable of handing with the Euro crowd in terms of speed and handling, these are awesome cars. note - I'm not a fan of the new CTS - too large and visibility issues - it's really not a car I'd have fun with on a mountain road or on a track day.
The G35, OTOH, is stunning. I tried and honestly can't find a single thing wrong with it. I drove a BMW 5 series and all I could find myself saying was things like "it doesn't have X like the G35" and "Why is this done this way(unlike the G35)". And it looks good, too. There actually are also color choices other than beige, silver, white, and black. :P (the new blue color is fantastic, btw)
I've heard some about the Ford Fusion - just trying to accept that there's such a thing as a reliable American car (actually, CU doesn't rate it that high for reliability...)
I wonder if there's a really small Acura. I suppose a 1-year old Accura or LS-250 might be worth a look, if they're really much cheaper than new (are they?)
I was going to look at the Fit today, but what really ticks me off about it (as well as the Civic) is that you have to buy the most tricked-out model (including navigation system, which I have no use for), in order to get ESC. That headset has me wanting to boycott Honda on general principle, since everyone else (Toyota, Hyundai, Suburu, Mazda, etc) now makes ESC std. on their small cars.
I -am- going to drive a Scion this weekend though
thanks for the comments, keep them comin...
/j
For someone driving 30-40k miles a year reliability can be a big deal. I used to drive that and at one point bought one of the worst rated vehicles (a VW) and put 200k miles on it with very little drama. The point is...if you really like something and it meets your needs...why sweat it over reliability? You have a good mechanic, you don't drive much, and the real kick in the teeth is you could just as easily buy the most reliable vehicle made and end up with a lemon. It's very painful when you compromise and buy something based on reliability and it turns out to be a heap!
Used cars outsell new ones by boatloads. New cars have a limited supply and they still incentivize the crap out of them to move what they build. If I can find what I want with low miles and decent shape, I'll take a used one any day over a new one. The savings is quite big in the scheme of things and if you go with a CPO you'll end up with more warranty. I recently was shopping for a new SUV and settled on a Pathfinder. Could have bought a slightly used CPO model from a dealer with 7 years of warranty for about $6,000 less than a new one. I ended up buying from a private seller (and not getting the CPO) but saved even more. It doesn't have as good of a reliabity rating as my other option (the 4Runner) but I like it more so I guess I don't care.
And, yes, you can get a $30K car for $20K that still has a warranty as good as brand new. The CPO warranty generally extends the new one another 1-2 years. Most vehicles have so little wear on it that it might as well be new. I know of one local dealership that meticulously cleans the interiors and goes over every inch of the car to the point where it looks and feels like new. They actually take out the seats to clean the carpets among other things.
Now, not all dealerships are like that, so you have to shop around, of course, but I have seen some vehicles that literally don't have a single ding or scratch on them (usually dealer owned or program cars) and yet there's that massive price difference staring you in the face.
A bit more about cars... :P
You'll likely hate Ford, from what you've been saying. Your top choice probably would be a Mercedes or Volvo if it weren't for reliability and repair cost issues that are typical of the European luxury cars. The Ford Fiesta is coming out soon, but it's a love it or hate it experience and honestly quite a bit overpriced as well. Ford's trick of selling a $15K car with $10K in options is all too common in the industry now.
http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?ct=c&car_id=274039536
A typical example. What was $40K 20K miles ago is now $23K.
And to be honest, I'm spoiled, my Corolla went years between needing anything more than an oil change. 8-}
But, ok, I'll stop by a Lexus dealership and check out used. (there's exactly -one- dealer within reasonable driving distance (sigh). (I'd check out Acura as well, but I don't see that Acura makes anything as small as the Civic) (UPDATE: 2-year old Lexus's are still $27-28K - can't justify the difference over a Corolla or Matrix (or Scion))
And you're right, i'd look closer at the european cars if they were cheaper/less painful to own.
still - I suppose if I fell in love with something less reliable, I'd give it a 2nd look (I DID like the Accent, but the CU "I'd buy again" was really low - and I think -that- should mean something...).
keep 'em comin'
/j
The reason you likely never needed more than oil changes on your old Corollas was because you never drove it! I have a relative that drives very little and she has a '98 Malibu which has a horrible reliability rating. She bought the car with 20k miles in '99 as an off-rental unit and now has 75k miles. She's made two repairs since buying it. No rust either but that's something Toyota is known for and doesn't seem to hit the reliability radars....
http://www.cars.com/go/search/detail.jsp?tracktype=usedcc&csDlId=&csDgId=&listin- - gId=36396771
This is your typical after-haggling price for an IS250. My $40K estimate was off - it's only $30K new, or about 22K two years old.
The trick is to use Autotrader and Cars.com to do these searches, since 90%+ of dealerships list their cars now on one of the two websites.
http://www.cars.com/go/search/detail.jsp?tracktype=usedcc&csDlId=&csDgId=&listin- - gId=37200639
This TSX is only $23K. The economy is rough for a lot of dealerships and this is the reality for most of them - they aren't making huge profits any more on used vehicles.
Here's a Civic EX-L, no Nav, automatic:
CarsDirect Price: $20,285
Plus 1-3K in first time registration "luxury tax"(aka first year DMV fees)
Drive both. Really a no-brainer.
http://www.manheimconsulting.com/Used_Vehicle_Value_Index/Current_Monthly_Index.- html
I do drive my car - a lot, every day, on local, curvy, bumpy roads. I suspect I give it as much, or more, wear as someone with 5x the mileage if most of that mileage is highway.
I drove the Fit tonight - I liked it, but it really sticks in my craw to have to either buy the top model, with a nav system i will never use, just to get ESC. Maybe I don't really need ESC but it's the principle. Also checked out the scion Xd and Yari. Yari is very basic, and scion - well, it is like a badly-designed van, with huge blind spots (on the other hand, the new prius has a huge black bar across the middle of the rear window - what were they thinking?). I'm (god help me) still going to visit the lexus dealer soon, and take another corolla test drive, maybe I can learn to like it 8-}.. Thanks for the other shopping tips. Keep 'em comin'
/j
(ps - to sit in a scion I had to go way out in their lot. none in the show room - they're the only scion dealer for 50 miles in any direction and they only sell them on request - tells you something...
You mentioned checking out Subaru as well and you might really like the Impreza. They're more like old-school Toyotas than the new Toyotas but you get AWD and a nice pile of safety features. There's more to break on them but I wouldn't sweat that. Of course Subaru is more common in NE than most anything. I once read they sell some crazy percentage of their vehicles in NE.
However - I'm skipping the lexus, even the I250 is a big car, bigger and heavier than the Mazda3, and no FWD option (only AWD at significant premium - this is New England - cannot have RWD)
Now , the impreza is only slightly smaller/lighter than the mazda 3 - you guys keep pushing the bigger, heavier cars - 8-}
I mention the TSX as it's among the smallest of the premium vehicles out there other than the small junk from Mercedes and BMW. Yes, they are lovely to look at, and drive very well, but the quality isn't there until you get to their upper-end vehicles.
I do know that if you want high quality and small, you have to either sacrifice low cost, back seats(or usable ones at least), or the automatic transmission. The only other choice that I can see as a potential option might be... See, I'm essentially drawing a blank as all of the other good small luxury cars are only sold in Europe or Japan.
That said, the Sentra and Mazda 3 are better values for the money than the Toyota and Honda.
VW Golf - People rave about them, and it looks and drives nice to boot!
Mazda 3 - A fun to drive vehicle definatly worth a look.
Upcoming Chevrolet Cruze - A small car with a very nice interior and you will lose your luggage in its massive trunk.
Upcoming Ford Focus - I don't know much about this one but it may win you over.
Also i noticed you said you didn't want a 1st year vehicle because its kinks haven't been worked out yet. Allthough i don't know about the Ford i can tell you that the Cruze has already been out for abit (i don't know exactly how long) in other contries.
Any suggestions?
A co-worker had his teenage son recently suggesting a Ford Flex to his parents (currently they have an Oddyssey), so I guess that would potentially project the desired non-mom-mobile image. I don't know anything about the vehicle, but it does appear to get minvan-lke mpg.
The GM triplets... GMC Acadia, Chevy Traverse or Buick Enclave
Lower down the cost scale... Dodge Journey has a lot of room, front-to-back (but, not as much width).
Think hard about not sticking with a mini-van, though... Hard to beat the value and utility. And, agreed... SUVs are still soccer-momish..
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Yeah, but they are rugged, outdoorsy, soccer-Momish. :P
However there is also the
Chevrolet Suburban, GMC Acadia, Buick Enclave, Ford Expedition, Toyota Sequoia, GMC Yukon, Mazda CX-9, Nissan Armada, and the Jeep Commander.
There may be a few more that have 3 rows but if you want a juggernaut of a SUV here are your choices.
My sister a couple of years ago had her choice down to a Civic or the Mazda 3. I went over every spec, every option, and every last detail. They actually are near clones of each other aside from the visual differences. But you can get a Mazda 3 for a coupe of thousand less than a Civic if you're shopping for program or 1 year old certified vs new. The Sentra is also a better car than the Corolla for that reason as well. Slightly faster depreciation and quality is just as good. Actually, better, since the Sentra doesn't have the (potentially defective) throttle control system that all Toyotas now have had since ~2006.
My choice would be to get something with a manual transmission because of the better MPG, lower cost, and sportier driving. Most of the problems, in fact, that cars these days are having is from the overly complex automatic transmissions. Case in point - the Mercedes C class is a disaster repair-wise, but if you get one with absolutely nothing electronic on it - no sunroof, no nav, no anything - and manual, it'll last you a decade or more without any major issues.
I never asked if manual was a possible option, though. If it is, though, it opens up a whole other range of small and fun cars.
*****
Concerning the SUV question/post:
If you only have three or four passengers, you might also consider a full size sedan. Even an old Crown Vic gets better highway MPG than most SUVs, and something large like an Avalon or Cadillac DTS will get nearly 30mpg on long trips. Plus have a massive trunk. And it's certainly more classy as well as handles better than a typical minivan.
(edit - of course get one 2-3 year old, Certified. A Grand Marquis, for instance, 2 years old can be had for almost 60% of its new cost)
http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?ct=c&car_id=275752399
This is before haggling, even. Was $40K new, $23K or so, two years old. You can spend $25-30K on a typical small SUV or minivan, so this is well within your budget as well.
MPG: 15 City / 23 Hwy - EPA - actually gets a consistent 25mpg highway according to most owners, due to a very tall overdrive gear. Not bad for a big V8.
A 2008 Sienna V6 minivan, btw, gets 17/23. Almost 100HP less than the DTS.
A 2008 4Runner V6 gets 16/20 mpg. Same story. Too small of an engine for the weight, so it actually works too hard and MPG suffers.
If we're talking V6 large sedans, though, 18/28 is extremely typical with 30mpg on cruise control being possible. My father has an older Park Avenue as an example and we can easily fit five full sized adults in it. I personally hate driving it, but it's worlds better than the minivan I last rented on a trip with my relatives. Tons of space but no power, no features, miserable handling.. the worst of all worlds rolled into one massive compromise - just to fit 7 people.
We should have just rented a Suburban.