I apologize if I wasn't clear in my wording that led to: describing the driving experience of a winter tire shod RWD BMW as "nerve wracking" compared to that of an all-season shod AWD BMW is disingenuous at best. That person had winter tires on both his former RWD cars and his current AWD car. There were no all season tires involved. Tires were the same in both cases. I do not remember if he indicated the vintage of the RWD BMWs he previously owned.
The post regarding the 335Xi versus a 7 series, where all season tires were involved, was from a different person. I was intrigued with your comment: There is zero doubt that an AWD car with all-season tires will accelerate and/or climb better than a RWD car with winter rubber. I would have guessed the opposite, that the greater snow / ice traction of winter tires combined with the weight shift to the rear on an uphill, would have given the 7 the advantage.
In virtually every side by side test I've seen, the only category where an AWD/All-Season beats an otherwise identical RWD/Winter car is in acceleration and hill climbing. It kind of makes sense to me because with all four tires digging, the tractive advantage that the AWD cars has is just too great to overcome with just two high(er) grip tires in the rear.
Not that it's exactly Apples-to-Apples, however, my neighbor across the street (the dude with the rediculous ~30 degree incline on his driveway) could occasionally climb his driveway in his all-season shod A6 Quattro when my winter tire shod 530i could not. I say occasionally, because even the A6 is challenged at getting up that driveway with pretty much anything more than a dusting of snow covering it.
I shoveled my way to the 335xi door, climbed in and drove out like it was mid-summer. (This was over 10" of unplowed snow.) I have 225 45R17 all-season tires on all corners. It really was no problem. No slippage, no DSC warning.
Then I tried my wife's 318ti. Even with the "dry" spot where my car was, the RWD 318ti slipped and spun (with Toyo snows at all 4 corners) like a wild-car. I had to rock it and rev it high between R and 2nd to eventually get it out, not without risk to person and property.
This is just one experience. For me, the 330xi exhibits the purposeful edge over the rwd in traction-starved conditions. For dead nuts on sport driving, RWD is KING.
Choose your weapons wisely, lock/load , drive safely and stay aware. The bottom line is these cars are both high end examples of excellent vehicles. There really are no mistakes here.
I lived in the UP of Michigan for four years. I've heard that Marquette gets upto 250 inches of snow every year, but I cannot verify the source. Car and Driver does their winter testing in parts of UP and I have seen manufacturer's vehicles, all cloaked up, being driven there. I drove a JGC for two years and then went and bought the 330i and drove it for the last two. The JGC shod with A/S tires handled excellent in snowy conditions, although I would lock differentials on occasion just to feel extra safe. It did slip once in a while starting from stop and taking turns.
I've got Blizzak WS-50s (studless ice and snow) rather than a performance winter tire on the Bimmer. I moved out of the UP a year and a half ago and still drive in a lot of snow living in Wisconsin. I haven't had too much of a problem driving anywhere.
While the comparison b/w a Jeep and a Bimmer is not exactly apples to apples, I would say that the Jeep's has an excellent 4 wheel drive. So if my Bimmer drives equally well on snow/icy conditions, I would say that it dispels all my fears of driving a RWD.
I tend to think of Bimmers as sports cars that should be enjoyed for their purpose. But Porsches, Lambos and some other exotics now have AWD.
Can I defintively answer the earlier post about the guy in Chicago trying to make up his mind? No. I can only say that, based on my experience driving in every snow/ice condition possible, a RWD Bimmer w/ snows will never let him down. Will I ever buy an AWD? Never! Let the rear wheels do what they're supposed to(push) and the fronts do what they're intended to (steer). That's my opinion and based on the responses I've read here, I am not counting on changing anyone's opinion.
The engineering changes yield what feels like a whole new 335xi. The 335i bobble-head front-end motion is gone; the handling dynamics reek of confidence. The steering is more communicative, with the front axle carrying an additional 200 pounds. Yank the wheel, and the nose dives aggressively for the apex while the tail hangs tight. Hammer the gas early to exit, and the front tires haul you forward instead of wide of the desired arc. No matter how you play the right pedal, the 335xi drives where it's pointed.
Thanks to everyone for their feedback. I'm leaning towards RWD considering the price difference and can always upgrade the tires for the added piece of mind, especially since I'll probably not have that much snow to contend with in Chicago, just brutal cold.
A post based on actual experience in extreme conditions comparing both types of vehicle -- very helpful (especially since it reinforces my point of view). I spent a lot of years in snow country, but couldn't afford decent cars then. They were all RWD & I survived somehow, driving routinely among Vancouver, Edmonton, Calgary & Regina. Go figure.
Seriously, thanks. There's a lot of emotion in this board, much of which seems inversely proportional to the amount of data/experience presented.
Here is a good read from Canadian Driver that sums it up nicely.
It's the tires, stupid! Well, something like that. Of all the tests and exercises we conducted during Traction 2006, vehicles with winter tires stopped one-to-two car lengths before vehicles with all-season tires, and they provided better grip in the corners. What this means in practice, is that if you are approaching a stopped vehicle and you need to slam on the brakes to avoid a collision, your chances of not rear-ending the vehicle in front are significantly increased if you're riding on winter tires.
In short, winter tires can reduce the distance required for you to stop on most icy/snowy surfaces. Of this we are certain.
Similarly, if your vehicle has anti-lock brakes and you are emergency braking, you can still steer your car, and with winter tires you may have extra grip when doing so. On the road, if you're emergency braking, look where you want to go, and steer your car there - anti lock brakes permit this - whereas an out-of-control skid with your brakes locked, does not. On the other hand, anti-lock brakes don't do much on ice, although as I say, if you have grippy winter tires like the Pirelli 210 Snowsports on the Mercedes-Benz or the Blizzaks on the Subaru, these may give you the edge you need to maintain control.
Winter tires don't necessarily translate into significantly improved traction under acceleration, however. They can help, but we found all-wheel drive was the best technology for that.
With all-wheel drive, you can get going without fuss on pretty much any surface. The problem occurs when after easily reaching 60-80 km/h, you need to quickly stop or turn. Then you might find that the surface is slipperier than you thought, and you're going too fast for conditions. So all-wheel drive is no guarantee of control, either.
At CanadianDriver, we like all the stability technologies available on modern vehicles. But in winter, on snowy or icy surfaces, your absolute best friend is the space between you and the vehicles around you. This means controlling your speed to maximize the space between you and everybody else, and driving slowly when roads are slippery and the weather is bad.
Even on SUVs with all-wheel drive, winter tires will bring your vehicle to a halt sooner. They'll protect you, and the people in the small car you might have hit. Granted, on the west coast where winter conditions are milder, winter tires may not be required. In the Prairies and Northern Ontario with their continuous sub-zero conditions, they're a must. In Southern Ontario, people argue that you can get away without them, but when the weather turns bad, the same people are unprepared. In Eastern Ontario, Quebec and the Maritimes, it's winter tires for sure.
Note, however, that vehicles (and tires) will perform differently on ice, compared with snow or slush. All these surfaces are slippery, but hard-packed snow will give the best traction when you have a choice.
Just the physics. AWD to start, winter tires to stop = xi with Winter Tires Wins. If that's not ultimate, I'll never know!
"Just the physics. AWD to start, winter tires to stop = xi with Winter Tires Wins. If that's not ultimate, I'll never know!"
The ultimate? Yeah, I suppose, for the 18 days per year when there is actually snow on the road. The rest of the year RWD is the ultimate and since RWD with the proper tires is more than capable of getting around in the snow, that's all I can ask. Then again, RWD in the snow can be the "ultimate" too; especially when I turn the DSC off and go bombing around a parking lot or the end of our cul-de-sac with the tail hanging out slinging snow everywhere.
The ultimate? Yeah, I suppose, for the 18 days per year when there is actually snow on the road. The rest of the year RWD is the ultimate and since RWD with the proper tires is more than capable of getting around in the snow, that's all I can ask.
Right, that's the situation I'm in. My wife prefers AWD in case she does have to drive in wintry conditions, and I keep the Wrangler around so I can take our German Shepherd to the vet and move stuff around around the farm. In any other situation I prefer my RWD 3 Series, even in the -SHUDDER- rain. And I take the Mazdaspeed if I want to experience the automotive equivalent of a Doberman on crystal meth... :surprise:
I'm moving from Atlanta to Minneapolis later this year and I'm also battling with the dilemma of whether or not to switch to an xi from a 2003 330i ZHP. After reading all the posts, I'm leaning towards keeping the RWD and getting the set of snows, but that's from not knowing the snow conditions in the Twin Cities. Any personal experience with either AWD or RWD from this region?
Hi daphantomica. Looking at the snowfall history, the best option is an xi for up there but you can get by with 4 snows. If you want ultimate, the xi with 4 snows is best.
Having spent considerable seat time in both E46 and E90/92 3ers, there is NO WAY I would trade a ZHP for a new xi. I'd vote for a dedicated set of winter tires/wheels.
You will definitely do fine with snows which would be way cheaper than switching cars. This should not be a factor in your decision when snows can compensate, particularly if you love the '03 ZHP. The '08 E90/92 are quite a bit heavier and therefore less nimble even with sport package....one of our resident enthusiasts traded an '06 330i for a Cooper S because of this.
Go with the snows for now. You can always change out later when you have time to evaluate the conditions with your current ride.
Here is a comparison of climate conditions comparing Minneapolis with Winnipeg for your review.
Thanks for all the replies. I completely agree with your roadburner, it's hard for me to part with the zhp especially since it's only got 36k miles on it. You also made a good point circlew that I always have time to change out later since I'll be there a few months before the heavy winter hits. I think I'm sold with the idea of keeping the car. Now I just need to find a good place to buy the set of snows and possibly have them keep the spare for me. Thanks again all!
Now I just need to find a good place to buy the set of snows and possibly have them keep the spare for me.
Tire Rack sells wheel/tire packages at very good prices. I keep my set in the corner of the garage and swap them out myself. If you don't have that luxury I know some dealers and shops will store them for you- often for free, and sometimes for a small fee.
I'm moving from Atlanta to Minneapolis later this year and I'm also battling with the dilemma of whether or not to switch to an xi from a 2003 330i ZHP. After reading all the posts, I'm leaning towards keeping the RWD and getting the set of snows, but that's from not knowing the snow conditions in the Twin Cities. Any personal experience with either AWD or RWD from this region?
Thanks, Sam
Sam, I was trying to send you a PM, but your email is listed as private. If you would send me an email, then I can reply to that and you can decide if the information is of interest. Thanks Bruce
I saw the question of the best snow tire and it is by far made by Nokian. I just got a set of Nokian WR G2's from Josh at tiresbyweb.com. He said for February they are offering $10 off each Nokian tire! Use coupon code CARCLUB. Figured I would pass it along.
I need help with the gear linkage 5 speed. Its getting difficult to shift in reverse.. An illustration or maybe someone that, live in Houston that I can talk with about this problem.
Are you looking for summer performance rubber for taking your car to the track?
Are you looking for winter tires for maximum grip on slippery or deeply covered road surfaces?
Are you looking for tires which are simply inexpensive?
Are you looking for a performance all-season which will give you more grip than you can (legally) use on dry streets and which are passable during the winter months?
can any one tell me where can I find a spare tire for my BMW 328xi 2008 which presently has 225/50/R17 RFT tires (they are new)? I have checked with BMW and they find nothing for 328xi. I need one with cover since trunk has no spare position. I don't want to messup my trunk. Thanks
Comments
I apologize if I wasn't clear in my wording that led to:
describing the driving experience of a winter tire shod RWD BMW as "nerve wracking" compared to that of an all-season shod AWD BMW is disingenuous at best. That person had winter tires on both his former RWD cars and his current AWD car. There were no all season tires involved. Tires were the same in both cases. I do not remember if he indicated the vintage of the RWD BMWs he previously owned.
The post regarding the 335Xi versus a 7 series, where all season tires were involved, was from a different person. I was intrigued with your comment: There is zero doubt that an AWD car with all-season tires will accelerate and/or climb better than a RWD car with winter rubber. I would have guessed the opposite, that the greater snow / ice traction of winter tires combined with the weight shift to the rear on an uphill, would have given the 7 the advantage.
Thanks
Bruce
Not that it's exactly Apples-to-Apples, however, my neighbor across the street (the dude with the rediculous ~30 degree incline on his driveway) could occasionally climb his driveway in his all-season shod A6 Quattro when my winter tire shod 530i could not. I say occasionally, because even the A6 is challenged at getting up that driveway with pretty much anything more than a dusting of snow covering it.
Best Regards,
Shipo
I shoveled my way to the 335xi door, climbed in and drove out like it was mid-summer. (This was over 10" of unplowed snow.) I have 225 45R17 all-season tires on all corners. It really was no problem. No slippage, no DSC warning.
Then I tried my wife's 318ti. Even with the "dry" spot where my car was, the RWD 318ti slipped and spun (with Toyo snows at all 4 corners) like a wild-car. I had to rock it and rev it high between R and 2nd to eventually get it out, not without risk to person and property.
This is just one experience. For me, the 330xi exhibits the purposeful edge over the rwd in traction-starved conditions. For dead nuts on sport driving, RWD is KING.
Choose your weapons wisely, lock/load , drive safely and stay aware. The bottom line is these cars are both high end examples of excellent vehicles. There really are no mistakes here.
Regards,
OW
I lived in the UP of Michigan for four years. I've heard that Marquette gets upto 250 inches of snow every year, but I cannot verify the source. Car and Driver does their winter testing in parts of UP and I have seen manufacturer's vehicles, all cloaked up, being driven there. I drove a JGC for two years and then went and bought the 330i and drove it for the last two. The JGC shod with A/S tires handled excellent in snowy conditions, although I would lock differentials on occasion just to feel extra safe. It did slip once in a while starting from stop and taking turns.
I've got Blizzak WS-50s (studless ice and snow) rather than a performance winter tire on the Bimmer. I moved out of the UP a year and a half ago and still drive in a lot of snow living in Wisconsin. I haven't had too much of a problem driving anywhere.
While the comparison b/w a Jeep and a Bimmer is not exactly apples to apples, I would say that the Jeep's has an excellent 4 wheel drive. So if my Bimmer drives equally well on snow/icy conditions, I would say that it dispels all my fears of driving a RWD.
I tend to think of Bimmers as sports cars that should be enjoyed for their purpose. But Porsches, Lambos and some other exotics now have AWD.
Can I defintively answer the earlier post about the guy in Chicago trying to make up his mind? No. I can only say that, based on my experience driving in every snow/ice condition possible, a RWD Bimmer w/ snows will never let him down. Will I ever buy an AWD? Never! Let the rear wheels do what they're supposed to(push) and the fronts do what they're intended to (steer). That's my opinion and based on the responses I've read here, I am not counting on changing anyone's opinion.
Particularly in the snow!
Now that's what I'm talkin' 'bout!
Regards,
OW
Seriously, thanks. There's a lot of emotion in this board, much of which seems inversely proportional to the amount of data/experience presented.
It's the tires, stupid! Well, something like that. Of all the tests and exercises we conducted during Traction 2006, vehicles with winter tires stopped one-to-two car lengths before vehicles with all-season tires, and they provided better grip in the corners. What this means in practice, is that if you are approaching a stopped vehicle and you need to slam on the brakes to avoid a collision, your chances of not rear-ending the vehicle in front are significantly increased if you're riding on winter tires.
In short, winter tires can reduce the distance required for you to stop on most icy/snowy surfaces. Of this we are certain.
Similarly, if your vehicle has anti-lock brakes and you are emergency braking, you can still steer your car, and with winter tires you may have extra grip when doing so. On the road, if you're emergency braking, look where you want to go, and steer your car there - anti lock brakes permit this - whereas an out-of-control skid with your brakes locked, does not. On the other hand, anti-lock brakes don't do much on ice, although as I say, if you have grippy winter tires like the Pirelli 210 Snowsports on the Mercedes-Benz or the Blizzaks on the Subaru, these may give you the edge you need to maintain control.
Winter tires don't necessarily translate into significantly improved traction under acceleration, however. They can help, but we found all-wheel drive was the best technology for that.
With all-wheel drive, you can get going without fuss on pretty much any surface. The problem occurs when after easily reaching 60-80 km/h, you need to quickly stop or turn. Then you might find that the surface is slipperier than you thought, and you're going too fast for conditions. So all-wheel drive is no guarantee of control, either.
At CanadianDriver, we like all the stability technologies available on modern vehicles. But in winter, on snowy or icy surfaces, your absolute best friend is the space between you and the vehicles around you. This means controlling your speed to maximize the space between you and everybody else, and driving slowly when roads are slippery and the weather is bad.
Even on SUVs with all-wheel drive, winter tires will bring your vehicle to a halt sooner. They'll protect you, and the people in the small car you might have hit. Granted, on the west coast where winter conditions are milder, winter tires may not be required. In the Prairies and Northern Ontario with their continuous sub-zero conditions, they're a must. In Southern Ontario, people argue that you can get away without them, but when the weather turns bad, the same people are unprepared. In Eastern Ontario, Quebec and the Maritimes, it's winter tires for sure.
Note, however, that vehicles (and tires) will perform differently on ice, compared with snow or slush. All these surfaces are slippery, but hard-packed snow will give the best traction when you have a choice.
Just the physics. AWD to start, winter tires to stop = xi with Winter Tires Wins. If that's not ultimate, I'll never know!
Regards,
OW
The ultimate? Yeah, I suppose, for the 18 days per year when there is actually snow on the road. The rest of the year RWD is the ultimate and since RWD with the proper tires is more than capable of getting around in the snow, that's all I can ask. Then again, RWD in the snow can be the "ultimate" too; especially when I turn the DSC off and go bombing around a parking lot or the end of our cul-de-sac with the tail hanging out slinging snow everywhere.
Best Regards,
Shipo
Right, that's the situation I'm in. My wife prefers AWD in case she does have to drive in wintry conditions, and I keep the Wrangler around so I can take our German Shepherd to the vet and move stuff around around the farm. In any other situation I prefer my RWD 3 Series, even in the -SHUDDER- rain. And I take the Mazdaspeed if I want to experience the automotive equivalent of a Doberman on crystal meth... :surprise:
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-2021 Sahara 4xe-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Regards,
OW
Thanks,
Sam
The history is at this site for your review.
link title
Regards,
OW
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-2021 Sahara 4xe-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Go with the snows for now. You can always change out later when you have time to evaluate the conditions with your current ride.
Here is a comparison of climate conditions comparing Minneapolis with Winnipeg for your review.
link title
Regards,
OW
-Sam
You know, just until you move back from Minnesota..
It's just the kind of guy I am..
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Tire Rack sells wheel/tire packages at very good prices. I keep my set in the corner of the garage and swap them out myself. If you don't have that luxury I know some dealers and shops will store them for you- often for free, and sometimes for a small fee.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-2021 Sahara 4xe-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Bwtter yet, he can have my 1999 Wrangler!
:P
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-2021 Sahara 4xe-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
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Thanks,
Sam
Sam,
I was trying to send you a PM, but your email is listed as private. If you would send me an email, then I can reply to that and you can decide if the information is of interest.
Thanks
Bruce
Are you looking for summer performance rubber for taking your car to the track?
Are you looking for winter tires for maximum grip on slippery or deeply covered road surfaces?
Are you looking for tires which are simply inexpensive?
Are you looking for a performance all-season which will give you more grip than you can (legally) use on dry streets and which are passable during the winter months?
-- Michelin Pilot Alpin PA3
-- Michelin X-Ice Xi