It is my understanding that the electric power stearing is "hooked" into the VSC system and will thereby be commanded to "resist" a movement of the stearing wheel if that movement will exacerbate an understearing or overstearing condition.
And I'm willing to bet your HH is FWD only. The lack of response to the accelerator pedal in the manner you describe is typically a result of the traction system having detected wheelspin or slip in a FWD vehicle.
It can be very dangerous to attempt to accelerate a FWD vehicle on a known slippery surface and the Trac systems activation, and the following intentionally delayed deactivation is likely responsible for the acceleration delays.
Under hard acceleration it also may very well be that it is the VSC hooked in to the electric power stearing to make it harder to crank in large amounts of stearing input.
Good cause of an entry into severe overstearing, that.
Big Brother really is right there looking over your shoulder watching everything you do.
We have 4WD and have not had power loss problem. WWest is most likely correct that traction control might have activated.
The second experience... In our case, the steering would turn but the HH seems to resist before it finall moves in the intended direction. Not sure if there is a real mechanical problem. Since replacing the stock Goodyear Integrity tires with new SUV tires, this problem has not resurfaced.
Lastly, under hard acceleration... Hard acceleration seemed to lock our steering in whatever position it was pointing for a moment. Scared the heck out of my wife twice. We brought it into shop, mechanic confirmed/claimed it was torque steer. We were accelerating hard first and then tried to steer. We also believe that the lousy Goodyear Integrity exacerbated the problem.
With the new tires, we still have this problem but the effect is much less pronounced. The workaround is smooth acceleration. Instead of a sudden hard step into the accelerator, we use a smooth step into the accelerator giving the car time to respond. It has worked very well with the HH responded smoothly and quickly.
No, torque stear is mostly the result of one front halfshaft being shorter than the other. Under high torque conditions the longer halfshaft will have more "wind-up" and that will result in the front wheel on that side lagging its opposite number by a few degrees. The highest level of torque stear will occur when you accelerate into a turn with the front wheels at a high stearing angle.
Torque stear, going straight ahead with a high acceleration rate, would normally bias the stearing one direction or the other depending on which side has the shorter halfshaft.
What you felt was more likely the VSC telling the electric power stearing system to resist turning in either direction during a high acceleration rate.
During that quick acceleration up to speed a LOT, maybe the majority, of the front tires' available traction coefficient with the roadbed is being dedicated to forward drive torque. Now if you start asking for a serious level of stearing input that will compound, possibly dramatically increase, the overall level of roadbed traction required. That often results in entry into an understearing condition which would clearly threaten directional control.
So like the stick-shaker is used to warn of an impending stall in a commercial airliner, that slightly STIFF stearing wheel is telling you not to ask more of the front tires' roadbed traction than might be available.
My guess would be that since the electric power stearing system can biased in this way they may also use it to eliminate the torque stear feedback to the stearing wheel altogether.
Thanks for all the comments and explanations. My HH LTD is 4WDi. So far, my take on all the responses is that my nits are not problems, with the possible exception of the lose of acceleration. However, I feel a vehicle -- any vehicle -- should have these kinds of things identified and fixed before the product comes to market.
I really like my HH. I just wish its driving characteristics were more predictable vis-a-vis the nits.
I have a Highlander Hybrid that was getting 20 to 22 MPG city and the system would always switch from battery at 15 MPH. The dealer kept telling me there was nothing wrong and the problem was me. After 8 months and many trips to this dealer, letters to toyota, I took it to another dealer in a small town 50 miles away. In 15 minutes they discovered that the ISC Learning procedure had never been initialized. Now It will stay on battery up to 40MPH and the mileage is between 27 and 29 MPG city. This is cold weather and 5000 ft elevation.
Are you sure?..'Now It will stay on battery up to 40MPH'
I've never heard of an HH or even the lighter Prius which can go all the way up to 40 mph in EV mode. 20-25 mph is about the max in my experience. I'm open to hearing from others but this seems a little on the farfetched side. hmmm?
I have my HH 4WD (not limited)for about 500 miles but get only about 18 mpg. I drive almost exclusively in new york city and was expecting at least 25 mpg. Will the mpg improve as the mileage increases or is there really a possibility the computer needs to be set. When i look at the gas-electric readout it switches to the gas engine almost immediately (at 5 mph). HELP
Where in NYC? I lived and worked there for 30 yrs. There is a lot, tons actually, of discussion on this subject in this thread back several hundred post ago. Begin looking around Oct/Nov and coming forward.
First thing is ... you. You do have to relearn somewhat your driving methods in order to best utilize the HSD system.
search on 'pulse and glide' 'P&G' 'feathering' 'short trips' 'cold weather' other resources.. greenhybrid.com and priuschat.com
I live in Manhattan and do the bulk of my driving there. Will definitely check techniques you mentioned but have been very diligent about not over accelerating and trying to "feather the accelerator". I watch the display to see when gas kicks in at different acc rates and it almost invariably switches to gas at ~ 5 mph. Maybe the display is not very accurate. Still even if i didn't change my style i expected more than 16 mpg. Someone told me it takes about 1000 miles to see improvement in mpg. What about this initializing if the ISC Learning. Thanks for your help.
In my experience, you can maintain ANY speed on the battery, given sufficient external forces helping the vehicle, such as gravity (going downhill) or with a very high wind coming from behind the vehicle. Given a perfectly level road and no wind, the HH can go a max speed of about 30 mph on the battery before the engine kicks in. Vehicle speed doesn't appear to be a direct input into the HH's decision-making circuity. Rather, it's the amount of torque required to push the vehicle to achieve a certain speed. Above a certain torque value (above the "stripes" region?) the engine seems to always kick on.
Here is one limiting factor that you can't overome if you're in the city mostly. Short trips will kill your FE. If your normal trips are 10 min or less then you are essentially driving an ICE vehicle. If 20 min or more then you can get better utilization from the HSD.
You will also find that going 'crosstown' as oppposed to up and down the Avenues will hurt you because having to stop and accelerate is much worse than 'cruising' even slowly at 25 mph along 2nd Ave for example. You want to try to plan your driving to keep moving at a constant pace even if you're stuck on 9th Ave entering the Lincoln Tunnel in rush hour.
As discussion1 has noted above the power of the HH is addictive too. it's almost a shame not to be able to use it but when you do drive it as a V8 then your FE will reflect that you are doing so. That being said you will be getting fantastic FE for a V8.
Our V6 ICE Highlander gets about 18 mpg on the beach here in NC, but my wife doesnt try to conserve fuel in any way. You can use this as a baseline.
..maintain.. is the key word. I agree that when up to speed keeping it at 40 or 50 or even 60 is easy to maintain given the right conditions. But accelerating from 0 to 40 mph in EV mode only. I cant do this in my Prius.
Has it occurred to anyone that Toyota may have spent a lot of time and money analyzing existing driving styles/types and then writing the overall firmware/software Hybrid control specifications so the optimum fuel economy would be attained while maintaining the "standard", John Q Public, driving style?
I found my initial mileage on my HH was about 22 mpg in my short daily hops around a flat and relatively small city. As the miles on the odometer increased and I learned about coasting and changing my driving habits, my mileage definitely went up and up and it's routinely running about 25 to 26 as I run errands around town. I found I could increase mileage by using the cruise control when I was on stretches of road with low traffic and open lanes and the speed limit was from 40 to 45.
I definitely had a bit of a lead foot from my prior vehicles and learning to drive the HH was a challenge until I started to see it as a bit of a game - to coax the best mileage I could and I leave the NAV screen on to the one that shows the engine/battery etc. and the screen behind the steering wheel that shows the bar of your mpg at any given moment. I don't really need the NAV screen in town as I basically always know where I am. . .
I've seen several references now to "feathering" and I think I know what it refers to but I'd appreciate a clear definition. I tried to find it in several places but only kept seeing it used a verb and not ever explained.
I've seen several references now to "feathering" ... appreciate a clear definition.
Thanks to my wife, D1 and KhdSpyder, I have just been practicing it this afternoon. As I understand it, "feathering" is to keep the needle of the "Power Meter" in the "stripes" region whenever possible. After accelerating to desired speed and pausing (as in P&G) to stop the ICE, we gently press the accelerator to maintain speed but work to keep the needle in the stripes region.
On flatter road and at lower speed (35 and below), this technique beats using CRUISE in activating all-electric drive. If surface angle is favorable, this technique can be used at higher speed, up to 40-mph.
As in Prius P&G, the speed often will drop anyway so whenever it is 5-mph less than posted or desired speed, we gently ease it back up again before repeating P&G and feathering. ICE often kicks in to help but as long as the needle is close to or inside the stripes region, the gas mileage remains very good.
If my this is still unclear, may be D1 and Khdspder can explain again.
I believe the discussion about P&G here is about drivers' effort to squeeze out that extra MPG, not that we have missed the point you made.
I think the magazines, newspapers and some prospective buers are the ones who miss the point. This car is not meant to be a Prius-like gas saver. It is first and foremost a SUV. It uses a new engine technology to reduce emission (SULEV) and yet supply impressive power. At the same time, the engine technology does support drivers' effort to squeeze out impressive MPG, so we try to share P&G experience.
I drove this car "normally" for a couple of months last year just for fun and also to check the mileage. "Normal" does not mean going out of my way to abuse the engine. Normal means driving safe but making no effort to squeeze out that extra mile. On streets, I still coast to a stop because that is how I drive but I keep up with traffic and drive 65-70 on freeways with spurts of 75 when necessary. Average mileage hovered around 23-25. 23-24 if I do a lot of 75's on freeways. 24-25 if I do a lot of 65 on freeways.
Good mileage for a 2-ton car that performs this well. The BMW X3 I tried came with a smaller engine (225-hp?) and still got only 15-mpg.
Perhaps I am doing it wrong but if I accelerate to the speed limit and then take my foot off the gas (then apply very light pressure on gas again) I can maintain speed for short periods on electric (arrow going to wheel). Of course the road does have to be ideal and traffic light. When my speed drops I repeat the process much like pulse and glide.
In the design of the HSD we the drivers have the most input into the FE equation. The more that we can induce the ICE to shutdown the better will be our FE.
In the City driving, like most congested big cities or rush hour traffic in most areas, while crawling forward at a constant speed the ICE could shut down as much as 50% of the time.
In Highway driving, whether 55 or 65 or 75 mph, the ICE normally can be shutdown about 20% of the time.
This all assumes a fully warmed up engine, flat terrain and no sudden stops/accelerations all of which kill FE for all vehicles. Also as noted in another thread increasing speed from 50 to 70+ increases the air resistance drag by 100% ( doubles the drag ).
I agree with other posters here that maximizing ICE-off time is great for MPGs. That said, it is only part of what this vehicle can do. At speeds over 35 MPH I modify Pulse and Glide to 'Pulse and Maintain'. I get up to speed rather quickly (not nearly as quickly as I could in the HiHy rocket) and then maintain speed, letting uphills slow me down a bit and downhills speed me up. This allows electric assist as well as charging for the next low speed electric opportunity.
I live in Maryland and am managing to average between 28.5 and 29 MPG on mixed driving (current tank 29.4 MPG at 120 miles). I intend to improve this in warm weather.
Oh, and I also do not turn on the heat until the engine is warmed up a bit on it's own.
This is a great forum and thanks to all those who discuss better mileage. I am getting good at feathering and PandG as discussed and recommended in all the postings. Still in almost exclusive city (crosstown)driving i am getting only 15-16 MPG. For the price, the satisfaction of having a SULEV is very steep. I will continue to try and hope when i get some more miles on the HH it will perform better. May call the dealer for suggestions. If i find out anything will post it. Thanks to everyone for all the help.
Your low mileage has to be either a defect in the vehicle or a defect in how you are driving because the worst mileage I got as a new HH owner/driver was about 22 mpg. I had to learn not to drive it like a "normal" car. Some of it may have been vehicle break-in time as other people on this forum have said the mpg went up as the vehicle passed 5,000 miles on the odometer. I noticed that the mpg went back down to 22 when my husband borrowed my HH recently and back up as soon as I went back to driving it. I do a great deal of short trips - turning vehicle on and off every few miles and that's the worst driving conditions for a hybrid and still averaging about 26 around town now.
There was a very interesting post elsewhere about having the service dept check the ISC Learning Procedure setup. (see Message 2610: "I found the text to the TSB that relates to the ISC learning problem. Hope this helps." by marke2. The link he offers is: http://www.alldata.com/tsb/Toyota/1118041200000_1129791600000_EG026-05/index.htm- l
I know how you feel. My brand new 2WD LTD HH was dented by a friend who wasn't looking where he was going when backing up his Tahoe. His bumper hit my driver-side door and front fender, almost right where the lower door hinge is. ~$1200 to fix. The body shop here had to do it twice (not a toyota body shop because my dealer doesn't have one, so it was sent to where they recommended), because the first time looked like the work was done by an amateur. :mad:
They had to replace the skin on the door, and now my driver's door sounds like a drum when I close it, which leads to my question to the collective. Does anyone know about the sound proofing inside the doors? I think the body shop skimped and did not replace any of the sound proofing stuff inside the door. In addition to tinny "twang" I hear when I close the door, I can hear slightly increased road noise, and the music coming from the speakers in the door sounds different.
Could some of you veterans please define exactly what "feathering" and "pulse and glide" are. I feel like I've got the basic concepts but want to be sure, and to know details like the duration in seconds of each pulse and each glide.
Well actually, I'm not real sure what "feathering" is.
P&G... accelerate up to whatever speed you wish, normal traffic speed, or slightly higher ( say 65 in a 60 if safe ) then let up on the pedal. By doing so you turn off the ICE engine. If you have a Prius or HH with Nav you will see the 'biofeedback' bar go to the roof at 100 mpg. This indicates that the ICE is shut down.
You then hold a light touch on the pedal ( feathering ) to try to maintain 65 mph as long as possible with very, very light pressure. Eventually you'll start to slow down a little and be back to 58 or 60 mph. This should last about 15-30 sec during which you will be coasting or driving 30-50% of the time in EV mode.
Repeat process.
Everytime you let up on the pedal and turn off the ICE you are driving for free!
In normal traffic, say in the 'burbs, when you are coming up to a light or stop sign anticipate stopping and let off the pedal, shutting down the ICE, and glide up to the stop. If the light changes just accelerate normally through the intersection.
When highway cruising try not using cruise control.. it uses too much fuel.
Just like you, took a few rounds for me to get it. I will try to be short and concise as a Prius friend did for me .
"Feathering" is easiest to understand if you think in terms of the Power Meter/Gauge needle. This is the left most gauge showing power in KW.
ACCELERATION ========== Ultra slow acceleration with gas engine running is bad for gas mileage. A brisk (not flat out) acceleration to 20-25 mph is best because the electric system will kick in to move the car saving gas. If condition allows acceleration on full-electric, by all means, do it.
PAUSE Phase ======== After accelerating up to the desired speed, take you foot off the gas. The gas engine will shut off (see note below for exceptions (1) ). This is the "Pause" phase. You detect shut-off in one of the following ways: (a) Hearing the engine actually shuts off. (b) Feels a light shudder and the light engine vibration is gone. (c) The "MPG Bar Graph" just under the Speedometer extends all the way to the right to 60. (d) If you have a NAV screen, the power flow shows energy flowing from the battery bank. Looking at it when driving is dangerous. I would recommend using the MPG Bar Graph.
Because Pause takes a couple of seconds at least and then it takes time to enter the Feathering phase, the car may slow once the foot is off the gas. You will need to accelerate to a little but beyond desired speed. How much more really depends on the posted speed, terrain and traffic conditions specific to your locale.
FEATHER Phase ========== Once the engine is off, you slowly press the accelerator while using peripheral vision to keep track of the Power Gauge needle. As long as the needle is in the stripes region of the Power Gauge, the car will stay in full electric mode (see exceptions (2) below). This is the modified version of "Glide" for the HH. Instead of Glide, we "feather" .
Keeping the needle in the stripes region is equivalent to "Feathering". You do this as long as you can. On favorable terrain with favorable traffic pattern, you can run on electric for as long as the battery holds out.
For us, because of uneven terrain, the car will begin to slow with only battery power, and when it gets a bit too slow depending on your comfort and traffic, you gently pick up speed again as before, repeat the whole process again.
GLIDE Phase ======== As you do all these, you will need to think ahead about charging. I used to run full electric for all I can and forget to coast so when the battery runs too low, the gas engine comes on to charge even when i am going downhill . So it is important to coast to a stop either at a turn or a traffic stop. The coasting recharge the battery so the HH can make the next electric run.
USAGE NOTES ========= For us, it is easiest to apply this technique when speed is between 10 and 35 MPH. On flat road, it is possible to do this at 40 MPH. I have not been able to run on full electric on a flat road at 45 MPH. On slight downhill, 45-MPH on full electric is possible. Full-electric at any speed beyond 40 seems to require a downhill slope else the gas engine will run.
PRACTICE Notes ========== This whole approach takes patience and practice. My wife got it at the first try, I have to take our HH out early weekend mornings to practice when the roads are clear. It took me 5 trials to be able to keep the needle in the stripes region. But watching the needle when driving is dangerous, so it took me another 6-7 practice sessions to train my foot to sense the pedal. This allows me to drive by feel and not by staring at the needle.
There is no hard and fast rules, I had to practice quite a bit and then adapt the technique to local conditions. You will most likely have to do the same and adapt to your local conditions.
Hope this helps.
Exceptions (1) There is nothing wrong when the following exceptions happen. (a) If engine is cool, ambient temperature is cold (<40-F), terrain is steep, the ICE will not shut off so easily even if you take the foot off the gas. (b) If air is on, the engine may run longer too.
Exceptions (2) (a) Again, terrain, cold, air system can keep the gas engine running *even* when the needle is in the stripes region. No big deal. Do P&G again.
A Prius friend showed me something really interesting in his Prius. He was able to drive his Prius for quite a distance with the NAV screen showing absolutely no flows and yet the Prius motors were clearly propelling the car. He drove our HH and tried the same thing many times but no luck.
I did see the same in our HH but only under very specific condition. Coming home, I always build up enough momentum to "zip" up our long steep driveway. When done right, I can take foot off gas for the last 15-ft or so and the car will really slow and yet allow me to use electric power to finish the climb every so slowly. Twice during these last few feet, my wife noticed the NAV screen showing absolutely no flows and yet we could hear the distinct soft whine of the motors propelling the car ever so slowly up and over the hill.
My Prius friend says this is a key difference between the HH and the Prius. This is probably why the HH has Pause & Feather & Glide while the Prius has Pause & Glide .
Anyway, not useful info, just some tid bits to share.
Assuming the HH is the same as the '01 HL (which I suspect it is) there is a large sheet of plastic with adhesive along its periphery called the service hole cover that seals the holes in the sheetmetal behind the interior door panel. I suspect they may have failed to replace it, which would tend to account for the symptoms you listed. There is also a sound proofing pad on the inside of the interior door panel, but I don't think it's likely anyone would try to remove that. I don't explicitly remember any sound proofing material on the inside of the door skin, but it's been a few years since I had the door panel off so I could be wrong.
In any case I'd recommend taking it back to the shop immediately and describe the symptoms just like you did in your post.
Alternatively you could remove the door panels from both front doors to see what the difference is, but I'd leave that as a last resort as removing those door panels is not a trivial procedure (see post 602 in discussion Toyota Highlander Owners: Accessories & Modifications).
I have the base model so I only have the gas, wheel and battery icons to look at on the dash. I speed up to desired speed (can be 40 or 50) and then take my foot off the accelerator and then lightly apply again. This action results in the gas icon being removed from display. If I see the arrow going to the wheel I let up on the accelerator. If I see the arrow going to the battery I apply very light gas. The result is no energy going in either direction. I can maintain this for several seconds depending on the grade of the road and whether or not there is traffic behind me. Once speed reduces to around 25 mpg I rapidly accelerate and repeat the process.
The Power Meter to the left of the instrument cluster is standard on the base model, so the reference to the "stripes" region is usable in the base model.
Sorry for that long winded post, it was a compilation of info from other posters and from friends who own Prius.
Dear CDPTRAP (and anybody else dissatisfied with their stock tires),
On 03/03/06, CDPT wrote (#2595): "The second experience... In our case, the steering would turn but the HH seems to resist before it finally moves in the intended direction. Not sure if there is a real mechanical problem. Since replacing the stock Goodyear Integrity tires with new SUV tires, this problem has not resurfaced.
"Lastly, under hard acceleration... Hard acceleration seemed to lock our steering in whatever position it was pointing for a moment. Scared the heck out of my wife twice. We brought it into shop, mechanic confirmed/claimed it was torque steer. We were accelerating hard first and then tried to steer. We also believe that the lousy Goodyear Integrity exacerbated the problem.
"With the new tires, we still have this problem but the effect is much less pronounced. The workaround is smooth acceleration. Instead of a sudden hard step into the accelerator, we use a smooth step into the accelerator giving the car time to respond. It has worked very well with the HH responded smoothly and quickly."
+++
At one dealer I shopped at, when I mentioned what CDPT brought up, the salesman said, somewhat apologetically, "Yeah, well, they're Goodyears. I myself would never put on anything but Michelins."
So, CDPT et al: what tires did you get? (I didn't know there were specific SUV tires. [But then, I've only had my Land Cruiser for 10.5 years] ) I assume the Goodyears you traded in were not all that worn, so you probably got a fairly good price on your newies, yes?
And you still feel like replacing them at the point you did was the right thing to do?
The EPS, electric power stearing, is designed to actively RESIST the turning of the stearing wheel in certain circumstances/situations.
Remember that if you are accelerating rapidly it is the front wheels that are the primary source of driving torque to the roadbed surface. If you turn the stearing wheel at too great an angle in this circumstance that dramatically increases the requirement for roadbed traction, quite possibly exceeding the "allotment" of same.
So in this circumstance the VSC, Vehicle Stability Control, system, via CC, Cooperative Control, signals the EPS to not HELP, not assist you in turning the stearing wheel at all.
The same is true of over-stearing, rear skid, or understearing/plowing, front skidding.
An example is that if the rear end is skidding, say coming around to the right, the VSC will "signal" the EPS to help/assist you for counter-stearing, stearing INTO the direction of the skid, but actively resist your turning the stearing wheel in the opposite direction wherein the skidding condition would likely be exacerbated.
If you have experienced a "stick shaker" in a commercial airliner the experience is much the same. If a pilot of a commercial airliner pulls the nose up so much that a stall is imminent the stall warning system will shake the control yoke back and forth slightly but rapidly as notification that the wings lift coefficient is nearing the point of stalling.
And an additional note of CAUTION.
The shop/repair manual indicates that there are times when the VSC will take these actions if it senses an IMPENDING skid. So you may encounter VSC/EPS activity for no reason apparent to your own "seat of the pants" sensor.
IMMHO we are rapidly approaching the day when new car dealers will be required to have driving simulators designed along the lines of modern day flight simulators so owners can experience these "effects" without finding out about them in real time.
How many drivers, even today, instinctively slack off on the brake pedal the first time, or even beyond, they experience the brake pedal vibrating due to ABS activation?
We are using 235 65/17 Goodyr Fortera SA. Kept the Integrity for tire swings. THe Fortera cost $135 each, I believe, need to check. You can pick any brand and model that meets your needs. We picked the Fortera SA for the sidewall toughness and it had a so-many-day return guarantee so we tried them and decided to keep them.
We now know the VDIM caused the steering response problems posted earlier but we are also certain the Goodyear Integrity amplified the problem due to its soft mushiness. We experienced the VDIM event once more on the new tires and it was shorter and much milder. There is a night and day difference in handling ability. The Fortera is tight and secure compared to the Integrity.
There is a significant difference in ride qualities.
The Integrity is soft and compliant on good roads. It muffles small ruts well. On big ruts, big bumps, the Integrity seemed to trade stability for comfort by rocking and pitching all over. It made for a nervous ride on bad roads. It also howls on freeways.
The Fortera is smooth and quiet on good roads. It does not howl on freeways. It muffles small ruts well. It will transmit big ruts and bumps to the car as a tight jolt but the car feels steady and stable, no excessive nervous rocking jittery motion all over. On bad roads, you feel a series of jolts but the cars remain stable.
If you like a softer ride, best to check out other brands.
No regrets so far. The Fortera SA handled this winter's heavy rain very well, sliced through puddles with ease, no sense of steering problems. The handling has been very good.
No experience in snow so cannot say anything there.
I've barely got 1000 miles on my new HH and already I can see that my gas buying habits must change. My beloved old Previa thought Arco 87 was just fine but this pup thinks differently. The tankfull that carried me off of the dealer's lot got MUCH better mileage than the two tanks of Arco that followed.
If you like your milage pretty well, what are you using? If your mileage is subbasement-EPA, what are you using? Brand and octane, please.
Can anyone recommend an info website for new HH owners that has tips/tricks for us newbees?
Read this thread from the beginning.. lots of good info. There are a lot of well informed experienced drivers of HH's who've posted their experiences herein.
First i want to quickly say that i appreciate kdhspyders comments in the many forums where he posts. Yes he sells toyotas, however he also owns them and deals with the public in a way that makes him aware of the wide range of preferences people have when they purchase a vehicle. It is clear he sincerely is there to help. Mpg is a sensitive issue with these SUV's in particular and they are under the microscope like no other. Consumer Reports has found one of the highest satisfaction rates they have recorded in the owners of HH and rx400h's. It is a learning adjustment to get the best mileage out of these vehicles and only about ten percent of the people out there have real issues with them.
BTW, to kdh and others who may be intested, this issue of Fortune magazine has an indepth article on what toyota went thru to get the first gen Prius out the door and functioning. Great read
For practical driving tips, try starting from message #2658. #2658 compiles all the tips posted here into a 1-page guide. I do not think it missed anything.
I use Chevron, 92. If you want to hypermile the car, 87 octane will do. If you want to squeeze out last ounce of rated power, 92 octane is it.
Winter mileage (norther CA) is 25-mpg over many tanks. Last summer, after the first 3000 miles, we were getting 28-mpg consistently. Do read back at least a few posts to see what others are getting around the country. We have drivers who get as high as 30 and most recently, as low as 19. If you see anything less than 21, we would recommend having the car checked. You should at least get 22-mpg after 1000 miles of normal driving, more like 24. It will get better as the car gets up to 300 miles.
Your mileage will vary depending on car break-in, driving tactics, terrain, weather and use of creature comfort.
There is one other HiHy forum that I check periodically but it is not as extensive as this forum.
Enjoy! Share your bad and good experience, we want it all .
Yeah the article gave some fascinating insights into Toyota, the juxtaposition of a relatively conservative company at the same time forging forward with the hybrid. From the looks of things this is just a taste of what they are capable of. I was particularly happy to see that the current president wants to get prices down on batteries and hybrid components to make them more mainstream with less of a cost penalty.
I've got a 4WD with as few whistles and bells as possible. Oh, except for the towing package. I expect to work on learning all the tactics I can to improve mileage, thogh right now I'm mostly concentrating on not hitting the non-existant clutch. Oy. Not allowed to keep my paw on the stick. Too much chance I'll try to downshift.
I snagged the post you suggested and am printing it off now. Looks like good stuff there.
Thank you very much for your feedback on your tires. Very observant and thorough.
And, as it has turned out for me: moot. When I took the final test drive before taking delivery of my HH last Friday (it gives me a charge to think of it now), we arrived back at the dealer and I gave the car one last onceover before going in and closing the deal.
I hadn't actually checked out the tires; your report, and my experience at another dealer whose demo had Goodyears, led me to presume the same would be on my car. I started to say to the salesman, "Kind of a downer about these Goodyears," when I actually looked and saw: mine are Michelins!
Wow. I was really taken aback, delightedly so.
What a bonus.
The car came from a dealer in Park Ridge, IL, a wealthy Chicago suburb that's the home town of Hillary Clinton. Maybe the ritzier dealers get ritzier tires.
In any case, I remain gassed by the Michis. And I love the way my HH handles. (Of course, coming off ten-and-a-half years in a Land Cruiser, it's no surprise that a vehicle like the HH would make me feel like I was flying a jet.)
So,CDPT, thanks again. Much appreciated. Glad you were able to make such an improvement in your own conditions.
Glad to be of help but cannot claim full credit. Someone else posted here first and I just pass info along with our own experience sprinkled into it. Happy motoring!
Just purchased a Highlander Hybrid. So far (80 miles) I love it. I thought I was a gentle driver, but am learning exactly what a light foot really is. Any significant suggestions for a new owner? I live in Landsdale PA ( outside Philadelphia).
Would you mind telling us your "Out-the door" cost, not including the taxes or any tag cost (US & COUNTY charges) but INCLUDING any dealer charges such as administration or title prep fees. I will be starting negotiations in about a week. I think I have a feel for where I should start but someone's actual experience will really help.
My approach will be to take the ratio of (Out-the-door)/MSRP = xxxx. This way I can take my MSRP and multiply by your xxxx and come up with where some dealers are.
If anyone else would care to share their two numbers, I'd appreciate it.
In my case we leased the base hybrid on which Toyota has a special offer. Lease is $309/month for 36 months and 36000 miles. Dealer gave us an additional $1000 off the Toyota special of $2999 down, meaning we put $1999 down plus tax and tags. Compared to $313/mo lease for a Mercury Mariner non-hybrid it was a no brainer. Even looking at a RAV4 lease they couldn't touch the Toyota manufacturer special. Even looking at the govt tax incentives it was cheaper to lease rather than buy. Effectively the Toyota offer is close to 0% interest.
Congratulations on your new HH, you'll gorw ot love it more each day.
Some things I learned, 1)a steady pedal on a Hybrid my not be giving you the best mileage, get to speed and back off the gas then slowly apply to maintain speed, 2) watch your fuel mileage monitor to learn the touch, and 3) learn more about hypermile driving tactics at the http://www.greenhybrid.com/
Comments
And I'm willing to bet your HH is FWD only. The lack of response to the accelerator pedal in the manner you describe is typically a result of the traction system having detected wheelspin or slip in a FWD vehicle.
It can be very dangerous to attempt to accelerate a FWD vehicle on a known slippery surface and the Trac systems activation, and the following intentionally delayed deactivation is likely responsible for the acceleration delays.
Under hard acceleration it also may very well be that it is the VSC hooked in to the electric power stearing to make it harder to crank in large amounts of stearing input.
Good cause of an entry into severe overstearing, that.
Big Brother really is right there looking over your shoulder watching everything you do.
The second experience...
In our case, the steering would turn but the HH seems to resist before it finall moves in the intended direction. Not sure if there is a real mechanical problem. Since replacing the stock Goodyear Integrity tires with new SUV tires, this problem has not resurfaced.
Lastly, under hard acceleration...
Hard acceleration seemed to lock our steering in whatever position it was pointing for a moment. Scared the heck out of my wife twice. We brought it into shop, mechanic confirmed/claimed it was torque steer. We were accelerating hard first and then tried to steer. We also believe that the lousy Goodyear Integrity exacerbated the problem.
With the new tires, we still have this problem but the effect is much less pronounced. The workaround is smooth acceleration. Instead of a sudden hard step into the accelerator, we use a smooth step into the accelerator giving the car time to respond. It has worked very well with the HH responded smoothly and quickly.
Hope this helps some.
Torque stear, going straight ahead with a high acceleration rate, would normally bias the stearing one direction or the other depending on which side has the shorter halfshaft.
What you felt was more likely the VSC telling the electric power stearing system to resist turning in either direction during a high acceleration rate.
During that quick acceleration up to speed a LOT, maybe the majority, of the front tires' available traction coefficient with the roadbed is being dedicated to forward drive torque. Now if you start asking for a serious level of stearing input that will compound, possibly dramatically increase, the overall level of roadbed traction required. That often results in entry into an understearing condition which would clearly threaten directional control.
So like the stick-shaker is used to warn of an impending stall in a commercial airliner, that slightly STIFF stearing wheel is telling you not to ask more of the front tires' roadbed traction than might be available.
My guess would be that since the electric power stearing system can biased in this way they may also use it to eliminate the torque stear feedback to the stearing wheel altogether.
I would.
I really like my HH. I just wish its driving characteristics were more predictable vis-a-vis the nits.
I've never heard of an HH or even the lighter Prius which can go all the way up to 40 mph in EV mode. 20-25 mph is about the max in my experience. I'm open to hearing from others but this seems a little on the farfetched side. hmmm?
First thing is ... you. You do have to relearn somewhat your driving methods in order to best utilize the HSD system.
search on 'pulse and glide' 'P&G' 'feathering' 'short trips' 'cold weather' other resources.. greenhybrid.com and priuschat.com
Thanks for your help.
You will also find that going 'crosstown' as oppposed to up and down the Avenues will hurt you because having to stop and accelerate is much worse than 'cruising' even slowly at 25 mph along 2nd Ave for example. You want to try to plan your driving to keep moving at a constant pace even if you're stuck on 9th Ave entering the Lincoln Tunnel in rush hour.
As discussion1 has noted above the power of the HH is addictive too. it's almost a shame not to be able to use it but when you do drive it as a V8 then your FE will reflect that you are doing so. That being said you will be getting fantastic FE for a V8.
Our V6 ICE Highlander gets about 18 mpg on the beach here in NC, but my wife doesnt try to conserve fuel in any way. You can use this as a baseline.
..maintain.. is the key word. I agree that when up to speed keeping it at 40 or 50 or even 60 is easy to maintain given the right conditions. But accelerating from 0 to 40 mph in EV mode only. I cant do this in my Prius.
ISC Learning Procedure
I definitely had a bit of a lead foot from my prior vehicles and learning to drive the HH was a challenge until I started to see it as a bit of a game - to coax the best mileage I could and I leave the NAV screen on to the one that shows the engine/battery etc. and the screen behind the steering wheel that shows the bar of your mpg at any given moment. I don't really need the NAV screen in town as I basically always know where I am. . .
I've seen several references now to "feathering" and I think I know what it refers to but I'd appreciate a clear definition. I tried to find it in several places but only kept seeing it used a verb and not ever explained.
mmreid
Thanks to my wife, D1 and KhdSpyder, I have just been practicing it this afternoon. As I understand it, "feathering" is to keep the needle of the "Power Meter" in the "stripes" region whenever possible. After accelerating to desired speed and pausing (as in P&G) to stop the ICE, we gently press the accelerator to maintain speed but work to keep the needle in the stripes region.
On flatter road and at lower speed (35 and below), this technique beats using CRUISE in activating all-electric drive. If surface angle is favorable, this technique can be used at higher speed, up to 40-mph.
As in Prius P&G, the speed often will drop anyway so whenever it is 5-mph less than posted or desired speed, we gently ease it back up again before repeating P&G and feathering. ICE often kicks in to help but as long as the needle is close to or inside the stripes region, the gas mileage remains very good.
If my this is still unclear, may be D1 and Khdspder can explain again.
I think the magazines, newspapers and some prospective buers are the ones who miss the point. This car is not meant to be a Prius-like gas saver. It is first and foremost a SUV. It uses a new engine technology to reduce emission (SULEV) and yet supply impressive power. At the same time, the engine technology does support drivers' effort to squeeze out impressive MPG, so we try to share P&G experience.
I drove this car "normally" for a couple of months last year just for fun and also to check the mileage. "Normal" does not mean going out of my way to abuse the engine. Normal means driving safe but making no effort to squeeze out that extra mile. On streets, I still coast to a stop because that is how I drive but I keep up with traffic and drive 65-70 on freeways with spurts of 75 when necessary. Average mileage hovered around 23-25. 23-24 if I do a lot of 75's on freeways. 24-25 if I do a lot of 65 on freeways.
Good mileage for a 2-ton car that performs this well. The BMW X3 I tried came with a smaller engine (225-hp?) and still got only 15-mpg.
In the City driving, like most congested big cities or rush hour traffic in most areas, while crawling forward at a constant speed the ICE could shut down as much as 50% of the time.
In Highway driving, whether 55 or 65 or 75 mph, the ICE normally can be shutdown about 20% of the time.
This all assumes a fully warmed up engine, flat terrain and no sudden stops/accelerations all of which kill FE for all vehicles. Also as noted in another thread increasing speed from 50 to 70+ increases the air resistance drag by 100% ( doubles the drag ).
I live in Maryland and am managing to average between 28.5 and 29 MPG on mixed driving (current tank 29.4 MPG at 120 miles). I intend to improve this in warm weather.
Oh, and I also do not turn on the heat until the engine is warmed up a bit on it's own.
Good luck!
Thanks to everyone for all the help.
I really had to unlearn my very lead footed ways!
mmreid
Might be worth checking out.
They had to replace the skin on the door, and now my driver's door sounds like a drum when I close it, which leads to my question to the collective. Does anyone know about the sound proofing inside the doors? I think the body shop skimped and did not replace any of the sound proofing stuff inside the door. In addition to tinny "twang" I hear when I close the door, I can hear slightly increased road noise, and the music coming from the speakers in the door sounds different.
Well actually, I'm not real sure what "feathering" is.
Thank you.
You then hold a light touch on the pedal ( feathering ) to try to maintain 65 mph as long as possible with very, very light pressure. Eventually you'll start to slow down a little and be back to 58 or 60 mph. This should last about 15-30 sec during which you will be coasting or driving 30-50% of the time in EV mode.
Repeat process.
Everytime you let up on the pedal and turn off the ICE you are driving for free!
In normal traffic, say in the 'burbs, when you are coming up to a light or stop sign anticipate stopping and let off the pedal, shutting down the ICE, and glide up to the stop. If the light changes just accelerate normally through the intersection.
When highway cruising try not using cruise control.. it uses too much fuel.
Just like you, took a few rounds for me to get it. I will try to be short and concise as a Prius friend did for me
"Feathering" is easiest to understand if you think in terms of the Power Meter/Gauge needle. This is the left most gauge showing power in KW.
ACCELERATION
==========
Ultra slow acceleration with gas engine running is bad for gas mileage. A brisk (not flat out) acceleration to 20-25 mph is best because the electric system will kick in to move the car saving gas. If condition allows acceleration on full-electric, by all means, do it.
PAUSE Phase
========
After accelerating up to the desired speed, take you foot off the gas. The gas engine will shut off (see note below for exceptions (1) ). This is the "Pause" phase. You detect shut-off in one of the following ways:
(a) Hearing the engine actually shuts off.
(b) Feels a light shudder and the light engine vibration is gone.
(c) The "MPG Bar Graph" just under the Speedometer extends all the way to the right to 60.
(d) If you have a NAV screen, the power flow shows energy flowing from the battery bank. Looking at it when driving is dangerous. I would recommend using the MPG Bar Graph.
Because Pause takes a couple of seconds at least and then it takes time to enter the Feathering phase, the car may slow once the foot is off the gas. You will need to accelerate to a little but beyond desired speed. How much more really depends on the posted speed, terrain and traffic conditions specific to your locale.
FEATHER Phase
==========
Once the engine is off, you slowly press the accelerator while using peripheral vision to keep track of the Power Gauge needle. As long as the needle is in the stripes region of the Power Gauge, the car will stay in full electric mode (see exceptions (2) below). This is the modified version of "Glide" for the HH. Instead of Glide, we "feather"
Keeping the needle in the stripes region is equivalent to "Feathering". You do this as long as you can. On favorable terrain with favorable traffic pattern, you can run on electric for as long as the battery holds out.
For us, because of uneven terrain, the car will begin to slow with only battery power, and when it gets a bit too slow depending on your comfort and traffic, you gently pick up speed again as before, repeat the whole process again.
GLIDE Phase
========
As you do all these, you will need to think ahead about charging. I used to run full electric for all I can and forget to coast so when the battery runs too low, the gas engine comes on to charge even when i am going downhill
USAGE NOTES
=========
For us, it is easiest to apply this technique when speed is between 10 and 35 MPH. On flat road, it is possible to do this at 40 MPH. I have not been able to run on full electric on a flat road at 45 MPH. On slight downhill, 45-MPH on full electric is possible. Full-electric at any speed beyond 40 seems to require a downhill slope else the gas engine will run.
PRACTICE Notes
==========
This whole approach takes patience and practice. My wife got it at the first try, I have to take our HH out early weekend mornings to practice when the roads are clear. It took me 5 trials to be able to keep the needle in the stripes region. But watching the needle when driving is dangerous, so it took me another 6-7 practice sessions to train my foot to sense the pedal. This allows me to drive by feel and not by staring at the needle.
There is no hard and fast rules, I had to practice quite a bit and then adapt the technique to local conditions. You will most likely have to do the same and adapt to your local conditions.
Hope this helps.
Exceptions (1)
There is nothing wrong when the following exceptions happen.
(a) If engine is cool, ambient temperature is cold (<40-F), terrain is steep, the ICE will not shut off so easily even if you take the foot off the gas.
(b) If air is on, the engine may run longer too.
Exceptions (2)
(a) Again, terrain, cold, air system can keep the gas engine running *even* when the needle is in the stripes region. No big deal. Do P&G again.
I did see the same in our HH but only under very specific condition. Coming home, I always build up enough momentum to "zip" up our long steep driveway. When done right, I can take foot off gas for the last 15-ft or so and the car will really slow and yet allow me to use electric power to finish the climb every so slowly. Twice during these last few feet, my wife noticed the NAV screen showing absolutely no flows and yet we could hear the distinct soft whine of the motors propelling the car ever so slowly up and over the hill.
My Prius friend says this is a key difference between the HH and the Prius. This is probably why the HH has Pause & Feather & Glide while the Prius has Pause & Glide
Anyway, not useful info, just some tid bits to share.
In any case I'd recommend taking it back to the shop immediately and describe the symptoms just like you did in your post.
Alternatively you could remove the door panels from both front doors to see what the difference is, but I'd leave that as a last resort as removing those door panels is not a trivial procedure (see post 602 in discussion Toyota Highlander Owners: Accessories & Modifications).
Sorry for that long winded post, it was a compilation of info from other posters and from friends who own Prius.
On 03/03/06, CDPT wrote (#2595):
"The second experience...
In our case, the steering would turn but the HH seems to resist before it finally moves in the intended direction. Not sure if there is a real mechanical problem. Since replacing the stock Goodyear Integrity tires with new SUV tires, this problem has not resurfaced.
"Lastly, under hard acceleration...
Hard acceleration seemed to lock our steering in whatever position it was pointing for a moment. Scared the heck out of my wife twice. We brought it into shop, mechanic confirmed/claimed it was torque steer. We were accelerating hard first and then tried to steer. We also believe that the lousy Goodyear Integrity exacerbated the problem.
"With the new tires, we still have this problem but the effect is much less pronounced. The workaround is smooth acceleration. Instead of a sudden hard step into the accelerator, we use a smooth step into the accelerator giving the car time to respond. It has worked very well with the HH responded smoothly and quickly."
+++
At one dealer I shopped at, when I mentioned what CDPT brought up, the salesman said, somewhat apologetically, "Yeah, well, they're Goodyears. I myself would never put on anything but Michelins."
So, CDPT et al: what tires did you get? (I didn't know there were specific SUV tires. [But then, I've only had my Land Cruiser for 10.5 years] ) I assume the Goodyears you traded in were not all that worn, so you probably got a fairly good price on your newies, yes?
And you still feel like replacing them at the point you did was the right thing to do?
Thanks,
Downthehightway
Remember that if you are accelerating rapidly it is the front wheels that are the primary source of driving torque to the roadbed surface. If you turn the stearing wheel at too great an angle in this circumstance that dramatically increases the requirement for roadbed traction, quite possibly exceeding the "allotment" of same.
So in this circumstance the VSC, Vehicle Stability Control, system, via CC, Cooperative Control, signals the EPS to not HELP, not assist you in turning the stearing wheel at all.
The same is true of over-stearing, rear skid, or understearing/plowing, front skidding.
An example is that if the rear end is skidding, say coming around to the right, the VSC will "signal" the EPS to help/assist you for counter-stearing, stearing INTO the direction of the skid, but actively resist your turning the stearing wheel in the opposite direction wherein the skidding condition would likely be exacerbated.
If you have experienced a "stick shaker" in a commercial airliner the experience is much the same. If a pilot of a commercial airliner pulls the nose up so much that a stall is imminent the stall warning system will shake the control yoke back and forth slightly but rapidly as notification that the wings lift coefficient is nearing the point of stalling.
And an additional note of CAUTION.
The shop/repair manual indicates that there are times when the VSC will take these actions if it senses an IMPENDING skid. So you may encounter VSC/EPS activity for no reason apparent to your own "seat of the pants" sensor.
IMMHO we are rapidly approaching the day when new car dealers will be required to have driving simulators designed along the lines of modern day flight simulators so owners can experience these "effects" without finding out about them in real time.
How many drivers, even today, instinctively slack off on the brake pedal the first time, or even beyond, they experience the brake pedal vibrating due to ABS activation?
We now know the VDIM caused the steering response problems posted earlier but we are also certain the Goodyear Integrity amplified the problem due to its soft mushiness. We experienced the VDIM event once more on the new tires and it was shorter and much milder. There is a night and day difference in handling ability. The Fortera is tight and secure compared to the Integrity.
There is a significant difference in ride qualities.
The Integrity is soft and compliant on good roads. It muffles small ruts well. On big ruts, big bumps, the Integrity seemed to trade stability for comfort by rocking and pitching all over. It made for a nervous ride on bad roads. It also howls on freeways.
The Fortera is smooth and quiet on good roads. It does not howl on freeways. It muffles small ruts well. It will transmit big ruts and bumps to the car as a tight jolt but the car feels steady and stable, no excessive nervous rocking jittery motion all over. On bad roads, you feel a series of jolts but the cars remain stable.
If you like a softer ride, best to check out other brands.
No regrets so far. The Fortera SA handled this winter's heavy rain very well, sliced through puddles with ease, no sense of steering problems. The handling has been very good.
No experience in snow so cannot say anything there.
If you like your milage pretty well, what are you using? If your mileage is subbasement-EPA, what are you using? Brand and octane, please.
Can anyone recommend an info website for new HH owners that has tips/tricks for us newbees?
Thanks
Reports has found one of the highest satisfaction rates they have recorded in the owners of HH and rx400h's. It is a learning adjustment to get the best mileage out of these vehicles and only about ten percent of the people out there have real issues with them.
BTW, to kdh and others who may be intested, this issue of Fortune magazine has an indepth article on what toyota went thru to get the first gen Prius out the door and functioning. Great read
For practical driving tips, try starting from message #2658. #2658 compiles all the tips posted here into a 1-page guide. I do not think it missed anything.
I use Chevron, 92. If you want to hypermile the car, 87 octane will do. If you want to squeeze out last ounce of rated power, 92 octane is it.
Winter mileage (norther CA) is 25-mpg over many tanks. Last summer, after the first 3000 miles, we were getting 28-mpg consistently. Do read back at least a few posts to see what others are getting around the country. We have drivers who get as high as 30 and most recently, as low as 19. If you see anything less than 21, we would recommend having the car checked. You should at least get 22-mpg after 1000 miles of normal driving, more like 24. It will get better as the car gets up to 300 miles.
Your mileage will vary
There is one other HiHy forum that I check periodically but it is not as extensive as this forum.
Enjoy! Share your bad and good experience, we want it all
From the looks of things this is just a taste of what they are capable of. I was particularly happy to see that the current president wants to get prices down on batteries and hybrid components to make them more mainstream with less of a cost penalty.
I snagged the post you suggested and am printing it off now. Looks like good stuff there.
Thanks!
Thank you very much for your feedback on your tires. Very observant and thorough.
And, as it has turned out for me: moot. When I took the final test drive before taking delivery of my HH last Friday (it gives me a charge to think of it now), we arrived back at the dealer and I gave the car one last onceover before going in and closing the deal.
I hadn't actually checked out the tires; your report, and my experience at another dealer whose demo had Goodyears, led me to presume the same would be on my car. I started to say to the salesman, "Kind of a downer about these Goodyears," when I actually looked and saw: mine are Michelins!
Wow. I was really taken aback, delightedly so.
What a bonus.
The car came from a dealer in Park Ridge, IL, a wealthy Chicago suburb that's the home town of Hillary Clinton. Maybe the ritzier dealers get ritzier tires.
In any case, I remain gassed by the Michis. And I love the way my HH handles. (Of course, coming off ten-and-a-half years in a Land Cruiser, it's no surprise that a vehicle like the HH would make me feel like I was flying a jet.)
So,CDPT, thanks again. Much appreciated. Glad you were able to make such an improvement in your own conditions.
Happy Motoring,
Downthehighway
My approach will be to take the ratio of (Out-the-door)/MSRP = xxxx. This way I can take my MSRP and multiply by your xxxx and come up with where some dealers are.
If anyone else would care to share their two numbers, I'd appreciate it.
Thanks.
Some things I learned, 1)a steady pedal on a Hybrid my not be giving you the best mileage, get to speed and back off the gas then slowly apply to maintain speed, 2) watch your fuel mileage monitor to learn the touch, and 3) learn more about hypermile driving tactics at the http://www.greenhybrid.com/