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Thanks.
http://www.buyatoyota.com/specials/specials.aspx?s_van=GM_HOME_REGIONAL_SPECIALS- _TXT
MSRP = $42,094
Invoice (which included $780 for TDA) = $38,419
Less $750 "Coupon" = $37669
My price "Out the Door Price" = $38000
Note: I KNOW that I could have bought the SUV for no more than $37,800 but I considered "a fair profit" for the dealer.
Note: PURCHASE (w/o coupon)/ MSRP = ($38,000+750)/$42,094 = 0.92
Note: I would have insisted on a price of $38,350 if there were no coupon or Purchase Price/MSRP ratio = 0.911
Note: My Purchase Ration was $38000/$42,094 = 0.902
Second Item: I'm confused as to how the KW Power Meter (the one to the left of the speedometer) works. The manual says, "The power meter indicates the instantaneous output from the hybrid system in approximate Kilowatts. While the hybrid system is regenerating energy, the meter indicates negative." I have noticed that sometimes while I'm driving at low speeds (say around 20mph) and am using only the electric system (as indicated on the Nav system), the KW meter hardly shows movement if at all. Yet, when accelerating up to speed, the Power Meter my go up to about 50-100KW while the Nav system shows no power coming from the battery. I would assume that the Power Meter and the Nav system should both be indicating the same thing. Maybe I haven't explained this observation very well, but hope someone can solve my perplexity.
As for the Power Meter, I like to think of it as a torque demand meter. If I step on the accelerator more than softly or the car is maintaining speed uphill, the needle goes up. Once it passes the dashes near 0, the ICE kicks in and you are no longer running solely on electric. I'm sure there is a better explaination but that's my take on it.
As for the power meter, it indicates the power in kw being generated from the engine (ICE). Anytime the ICE is on, 72% goes to the wheel and 28% get routed to the generator (MG1) which in turns generates voltage which eventually gets to the front motor (MG2) which then uses the electricity to turn the gear in the power slit device/E-CVT (contributing to the force turning the front wheels).
The short story is one cannot run the ICE alone, when it is on you will see the KW go up in the power meter because of the 28% as indicated above.
Hope it is helpful..if you are interested I can link you to some tech papers.
Here are some links to wet your appetite. Some of them are for Prius, however, the HH propulsion system is a refinement of the Prius HSD plus a new reduction gear for extra power. The Highlander is also known as the "Kluger" in the rest of the world.
http://www.earthtoys.com/emagazine.php?issue_number=05.10.01&article=naftc
http://www.ecrostech.com/prius/original/Understanding/Contents.htm
http://www.cleangreencar.co.nz/page/prius-transmission
http://toyota.jp/hv/entrance.html?intohsd.toyotajp.kluger
If you still want more info at a more technical level post at this forum later because I have to find them again.
Enjoy your new HiHy.
The power meter shows total HP (gas-engine and battery combined) converted to KWh.
The Blue region indicates brakes charging, I believe. Correction?
The stripes shows transitioning, I think. Correction please?
Whenever we step on the brakes, the needle heads down to the blue region. The harder we press, the lower into the blue it goes, the more charging is taking place.
When the car is coasting with no brakes, the needle hangs around the stripes region also charging. It can also sink to the bottom of the stripes region, just above the blue.
When going at low speed requiring low power, the needle hangs in the stripes or just above.
When going at higher speed or accelerating, the needle cranks up beyond the strips to 10, 25, 50 or 100 or beyond.
The gas engine can start running for a variety of reasons from the middle of the stripes region and up.
Hope this helps.
The $38,000 out the door does that include tax & lic. etc.???
Thanks,
doug
Also, I'd like to thank everyone for his/her input into my Power Meter queston and especially the links. I find that each day I read this forum, I lean something new. It really helps.
Conservative driving like anticipating stops and turns by coasting, observing speed limit in city and freeways, no jack-rabbit stop-and-go and car conditions such as oil, tire pressure will all help. The hybrid is no magic, everything I would do for a normal car, I would do for the hybrid. If your terrain is mountainous, gas mileage can also suffer.
May be you can explain where you drive, how you drive then may be we can give more specific help.
I've have tracked precisely every fillup I've made in my 2WD '06 HH since the day I bought it (even have an Excel spreadsheet calculating this). I have about 5000 miles on the car now. I live in Puerto Rico near the coast in San Juan. There are some hills on my commute but not huge ones. I am aware that running the A.C. and the way you drive makes a difference in the mileage. For a couple of months I tried driving really gently - braking minimally, no fast starts, not using the A.C. and attempt to keep the top speed under 60 mph. The very best I could get was 22.24 MPG and the worst was 17.98 MPG with the overall average being 20.17 to date.
Is it true that the type of gas makes a difference? Also I'm wondering if Toyota upgrades the computer program that controls when the gas motor turns on and off. It's hard to quantify but sometimes it "feels" like it shouldn't be turning on but it does. Battery appears to have a fair charge left.
Toyota has looked at the car and said nothings wrong.. But I can't help but think something is. Any ideas?? Thx!
Are your trips short such as to work, shopping and to visit family and friends? The reason is that short trips have a strongly negarive effect on fuel economy even in moderate/warm climates like PR. If you live close to work and family and your trips are 10-15 miles on average then the vehicle is just getting into stride when you shut it off for several hours.
This isn't discounting that the fuel may have an effect or that the computer might be off but your spreadsheet tells the real facts. The amount of fuel that you actually use and the distance you've driven is the real situation.
Can you describe your typical daily driving?
Highway? Speed? Distance? Time?
City? ?peed? Distance? Time?
The first thing that comes to mind is the "Idle Speed Learning" unit. A couple of owners posted here that their ISL setting was off so the gas-engine runs too soon and too often. One had no trouble getting it reset at a dealership while the other had to insist before the dealer did anything.
Khdspyder asked a set of good questions about your driving pattern. Please provide whatever details you have, including your HH model and whether it has the Energy Flow Screen (NAV). Many helpful owners here will chime in to help.
As to quantifying the gas-engine run pattern, the following is what we observe of our own HH, I would assume it should be rather similar to yours. We have AWD with NAV. The behaviors below assume no fan and no A/C running:
1. In weather >55-F, the gas engine of our HH will run for about 30-seconds before shutting off when we first start the car in the morning. This is most obvious when we start the car and not immediately drive off or we start and coast down our driveway. Try this with your HH in the AM standing still and see if the engine shuts off after 30 seconds.
2. After driving for at least 2 miles at 35-45 MPH (or higher) to warm up the car and charge the battery beyond 4 bars, find a flat stretch of road with no traffic, pick up speed to posted limit (25, 35, 45) and then take foot off gas to let the car coast. The gas-engine should shut off within 2 to 5 seconds once coasting begins. It should not turn on again until you press on the accelerator.
3. When car has been driven at least 2 miles and battery is beyond 4 bars, find a downhill coast with no traffic, take foot off gas, gas-engine should shut off completely within 2 to 5 seconds.
4. Find a stretch of flat quiet country road that runs for 1 or more miles without turns or stops. Make sure car battery is charged up to 6 or 7 bars, in the GREEN. Pick up speed to 35-MPH, foot off-gas and let speed drop and then set CRUISE at about 30-MPH and see if the car ever goes into FULL electric mode. Meaning it runs only on electric. To be safe, do this when there is no traffic. If the road is flat, the car should easily change into full-electric mode at 30-MPH for as long as the terrain and the battery charge will allow.
5. You can repeat #4 above but set CRUISE speed at a little above 25-MPH. CRUISE will not work at speed below 25-MPH. The car should easily go into electric-only mode at speed at or above 25-MPH. Gas-engine should shut off.
6. When you come to a stop at traffic light after car has been driven at least 2 miles and battery is at least 5 bars, the gas engine should shut off within 2 -5 seconds for as long as you are stopped.
7. After driving the car for 2 miles and battery is at least 5 bars, pull into a mall parking lot and just park WITHOUT turning off the engine. The gas-engine should shut off within 2-5 seconds. If the battery is charged well, the gas-engine should stay OFF until the battery drains to 3 bars.
The above 7 simple tests can tell you if the HH is running its gas-engine too often.
In all 7 cases above, our HH will shut off its gas-engine. In case #4 & #5 above, our HH will run on electric only until the charge runs down to 3 bars, then the gas-engine kicks in to charge the battery. In case #6 & #7 above, the same happens.
There is a Toyota Motor Expert who just checked this forum today, hopefully he will check back when you post the test results.
I estimate my commute is only about 6-7 miles. The first mile or so has several stop lights and turns. This is kind of an urban neighborhood (Condado). Then I get on a slowish highway - exit to another slowish highway, then exit to another slowish highway for a couple more miles and moderately long bridge over an inland waterway. Traffic conditions can vary from little to stop and go.
I think the display on your AWD HH is different than mine. My isn't AWD and is the std model - not limited. It doesn't show bars that indicate the charge level. It shows a battery icon in different fullness levels...a bit simplistic. ALso it does not show when the engine is running at all times. It indicates when the gas engine is providing power to the drive train, and when the regenerative system is charging the batteries. But at a stop the engine may be running with no indication of that on the display. It does not indicate the batteries are being charged by the gas motor. I think there should always be some indication if the engine is running. Could this be a fault or is this normal for this model display... don't know.
Most of the tests you mention above the car does.. After starting the motor turns on after 30 sec, then shuts off when I coast.
I am going to print out the rest of your message and make some notes and continue this post later. (Have to go to work....)
THX
TBC...
- Bob
Will see what the corresponding battery icon look like when batteries are at different charge levels.....
Is a high engine utilization typical for other HH owners?
In an earlier posting in this forum, someone suggested that the delay for the engine activiation can be adjusted by the dealer which, presumably, would improve the MPG. However, I wonder if that would result in a reduction in acceleration and, if so, what the tradeoff would be. (I don't want to turn the HH into a Prius.)
Does anyone have experience with adjusting the engine utilization?
Now that warmer weather is back, I'm conisistntly at 30MPG in mixed driving.
I no longer try consciously to avoid the ICE kicking in. I just avoid hard acceleration and braking (a difficult task at times in NYC). I get 19-21mpg on 5 minute trips in the neighborhood. On the highway I get 29-32mpg.
What I would like is more battery power so I could run longer on electric.
The best is still to recharge by coasting and coasting in "B" mode if at all possible.
When coasting and coasting in B mode are difficult, we beliberately blend full-electric run with low-speed (25-35) ICE-assisted run if possible. This is so we recharge the batteries every time it drops to four bars. It seems four bars is the minimum meaningful threshold on our HH. Over four bars of charge, our HH can easily run on full-electric at 38-39 MPH for 1+ mile. Below four bars, it can reliably maintain 25-MPH for close to 0.5 mile before sinking to 2 bars (Pink).
Maintaining four bars seems to help us run on electric more often.
And, not meaning to get too far out, but I couldn't help but think that, if there is excess generation, that could be used for generating hydrogen from water (which could be fed into the carburetor).
On flat roads, we almost never use "B", it is either coast or brake.
I suspect it will do the same thing if you simply release the accelerator pedal and not apply the brakes.
Unless, of course, the batteries are already "full".
Unlike previous very precise Toyota Cruise control, the HH Cruise leans towards fuel-efficiency (just a guess) so it always lags a bit upon start of a climb. This always causes the engine to growl and surge to rocket the car up the grade. On a long climb, this is acceptable because there is plenty of distance and time for the computer to adjust its power so the car has room to settle back to set-speed.
On a short climb like up an overpass, this surge in power easily shoots the car up to the top at over the set-speed before the computer has time to adjust. This is too dangerous when there are cars in front. So we no longer use cruise in such area.
We had a close call last summer when we first got our HH. We let an impatient H2 passed us on a 1-lane rural road. It was probably doing 55 in a 45 zone and we were crusing at 45 so it zipped by and kept going. As we entered a hilly portion, there was a sharp steep climb after a sharp turn. We came around the corner, felt the HH engine kicked in and the car shot up the grade and right in front of us was the H2 grunting to climb the grade. Luckily, there was room to pass so a quick move took us pass the H2 and kept going to the top. There was little time to even think about it. The speed had surged past 45 to around 47-48 before it settle down to 45.
After that experience, no more Cruise control on narrow mountain roads or freeway overpasses and we observe the 5-second (not 3-second) rule religiously.
The key to getting maximum mileage on our Prius has been to use the electric motor as long as possible during all accellerations, and then always get off the gas as soon as possible if you see traffic slowing down ahead of you, or if you know there is a stop sign coming up. Even at cruising speed, there is definitely a difference in energy management depending on throttle position... you can ease back slightly on the throttle at speed and it usually introduces more electric assist while maintaining speed.
A lot of people use Pulse and Glide, but for me, that's too much effort... I think just accellerating as slowly as traffic will allow and getting off the gas as soon as you see a red light ahead or stop sign down the road goes really far towards maximizing gas mileage.
And of course we all know that running the AC kills gas mileage, as does travelling at high speeds (above say 60MPH) as aerodynamics become a factor... this is especially true of the Highlander Hybrid, I can see a huge difference in mileage between going 60 MPH and 70MPH...
Good luck!
Has any HH owner here done this and notice significant benefit?
We accidentally did this with our HH a few times and have learnt to do it more often but not sure if it is worth all the work.
Seriously?
You spent all that money to do that :confuse:
Yes, we still keep engine ON and wait if it is a quick run in and out. There really is no need to turn anything OFF. We even leave the A/C on now if necessary. A full-charge can sustain a little over 15 minutes of A/C run before it drains to 3 bars. It is really nice to have the A/C ON but burning no gas.
We also naively tried to run on electric as much as possible last year. That did not work too well because draining the battery meant ICE running longer to charge. Now, we just maintain power in the zebra-band whenever speed allows. The car will charge when it needs to, use pure ICE or pure electric or a combination of ICE and electric when necessary. As long as the power is in or close to the zebra band, the MPG number is at or above 25-MPG.
The car has broken in now and we have learnt a lot, it has been a fun ride, worth every penny. Especially with gas at $3.30 for "Regular" and $3.40 for "Premium".
I too have fallen into the "trap" of trying to get the highest numbers, so know what fun it can be. I think many of us, having prior notions of the EV1, and other pure electric cars, had lots of mis-informed conceptions about Hybrids. Once one realizes their true genius of walking the tightrope between ICE and electric, one appreciates them even more!
BTW, in Reno regular is "just" $3.09 :P
As the car breaks in, it is becoming more obvious that with a full charge, 6 - 8 bars, the car easily starts off on electric and can stay in electric up through 20-MPH before the ICE kicks in. It can move so quickly that we thought it was the ICE kicking in to help. When there is little traffic, we can nurse it on pure-electric all the way to 40-MPH before setting CRUISE and let the drive computer take over. We could not do this prior to breaking 10K miles.
This Prius no-flow technique seems to really help with keeping a battery charge. Still experimenting with how long it can "roll" in this manner, which road can it roll best, at what speed can we do this safely.
Reno gas is cheap, we are in SF Bay area,
Wow! Today in Tucson, $2.69 at Sam's Club! No complaints here!
I am curious how to get the "no arrows" that is mentioned in the post by cdptrap just above mine. I have a new TCH, with only 1400 miles, and havn't been able to acheive this feat yet. It seems that i can get the ICE turned off, but always get charging back into the battery. AH! Maybe it requires a totaly full battery? Any advice?
LOL !
The battery is always optimally charged, to allow head room for regenerative breaking charging, etc. Starting with it at 100% actually defeats the system technology, and will shorten your battery life.
Where are the "bars" that is always being mentioned? Is that on the NAV layout that shows a car for every 50 w of enegery bing genereated in each time period?
I see no benefit of getting "no arrows" unless the arrows are fromn the ICE.
FYI - 06 HH Limited AWD, got last Thursday, 8/17.06. 250 miles, and am showing a 28.7 ave mpg. It had 66 on it when I got it, and the ave mpg then was 16. Don't know what idiot drove the first 66.
Then still more "idiots" drive them through the dealers car wash, fuel them at a nearby gas station.
Then even more idiots, buyers, like you, me, test drive them. :P
That is where those miles came from, and just who those "idiots" were....
The "no arrow" thing is just a recent discovery so we are having fun trying it. Not convince it is really worth doing all the time. There are other ways of making sure the battery maintains a strong charge when we come to a stop. The strong charge allows us to start moving again on eletric.
We are not sure if it is useful for the HH because there are other ways of getting a good strong charge when we come to a stop. The strong charge lets us move off on full electric when traffic allows. The rest of the time, we just maintain power in the zebra region and the drive computer takes care of the rest.
Just for fun, to do this no-flow thing:
1. First we work the accelerator to achieve full-electric mode. Remember to get on a long flat stretch.
2. Slightly easing the accelerator just a hair. The NAV diagram will likely show the battery turning off and Regenrative Braking charging the cells. THis tells us we just found the two end-points.
3. Now we gently press the accelerator, not as far down as #1 but just a hair further than #2. Somewhere in there, the flows stop and the car just rolls.
It takes a very light sensitive touch and not easy for me to achieve so I do not do it muh. It is fun to try and practice when we happen onto a stretch of flat road.
As Terry said above, don't obssess over this like me, I am just doing it for fun