Lexus ES Engine Questions
I am planning on buying a 2000 lexus ES300 from a family friend with 179,000 miles on it. It had the regular maintanence done on it serviced by the local Lexus dealership. I have been told that Lexus engines if properly maintained last well over 200,000 miles. Is this a good car to be getting myself into or is it a death trap? How long are these engines supposed to last?Thanks!
Josh
Josh
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An oil forum, "BobIsTheOilGuy", has quite an extensive posting archive about past Toyota 3L V6 engine problems. Toyota had sludge troubles on that 3L V6 engine from ~1995-2002. The culprits were the recomended 7,500 mile oil change intervals Toyota advised at the time combined with questionably engineered small diameter oil return galleries from the heads (hot oil in the heads tended to remain there too long - a perfect breeding ground for varnish and sludge). At first Toyota denied culpability; but after being threatened with a class action suit by infuriated owners of affected cars whose motors had seized, Toyota extended the engine warranty to ten years, unlimited mileage, as long as an owner was able to show evidence of at least ONE oil change per year. If the car you're contemplating has up to date service records, you should be ok in case of problems - up to and including a replacement engine with all subsequent engineering improvements if necessary out to 2010. As a result, Toyota scaled back the recommended oil change interval to 5,000 miles, and Toyota enlarged the oil return galleries to promote quicker return of hot oil in the cylinder heads to the sump where it would be cooled by under-car airflow. Interestingly, the owners of affected cars who'd grown up changing or having their engine's oil changed at 3,000 mile intervals, and continued with their customary oil change interval in spite of the recommendations in the owner's manual, never developed sludging problems. The only Toyotas of the era that had a snowball's chance in the Sahara of not becoming sludgemonsters on Toyota's original 7,500 mile oil change intervals were those which routinely ran full synthetic motor oils or routinely ran easy highway miles. (Urban crawl is an oil killer - ask any fleet mechanic.) You might wish to inquire of your friend whether he/she opted for synthetic oil at the specified changes.
(Oh, and by the way, with regular oil and filter maintenance, there isn't a motor made over the last ten years, regardless of automaker*, that couldn't make it out past 300,000 miles if driven reasonably. In general, engines and motor oils have now gotten that good.
*with the possible exception of some Korean subcompacts masquerading under GM nameplates)
The service center tells me that I should pay ~$310 :confuse: , just to flush the engine and fuel system. They will also charge me the other regular 30K services for about $410.
Do I need to do this kind of service? any recommendation?
Thanks!
At just 30,000 miles? Not unless you're feeble-minded.
I'm not going to spend the extra $310 bucks!
Thank you.
Terri
I am the second owner of a 1998 ES 300 with approximately 86k miles. I purchased the car 12/01 when it was 4 years old and had 35k miles on it so I've had it a little over 5 years. So, the car is 9 years old as of last December.
I have never taken the car to the dealer for service because it is quite far from my house.
My "check engine" light has come on three separate times, starting in May of 2005. The first mechanic said it was the O2 sensor and he reset it.
Later it came back on.
The second mechanic replaced that sensor.
The engine light came back on but the same mechanic said it was the "knock sensor" P-330 and he reset that because the "condition wasn't present at that time."
Now the engine light is back on and I am aware that in addition my engine has a significant sludge problem. I've changed the oil every 3-5k miles.
Unfortunately, neither of the mechanics mentioned the sludge problem to me.
My question is this- is the oxygen and/or knock sensor possibly related to the sludge?
I ask because I have a claim with Lexus/Toyota re: sludge only if I can show that the sludge problem existed within 8 years of purchase. If the engine light reoccurence will demonstrate that (it started within 6-7 years of purchase) it may help my case.
Thanks so much!
Are the engine light and sludge connected? That's impossible to say with any certainty at this point, but it doesn't help your case I don't think to mention it and I don't see any moral reason to reveal it. It's not like the oil pressure light went on , or the overheat light, which it seems to be would relate directly to a heavy sludge issue.
Find someone who can fix the engine light issue and then petition Toyota. Maybe they'll help you out.
I didn't actually drive around for a long time with the engine light on, I did take it in when it went back on twice, albeit not to the dealer. It would be fine for a while, and then go back on. I only drive the car to work and back.
The thing is without the engine light "evidence" (and I guess it's really not!) I have no potential proof the sludge problem existed before the extended) warranty regarding this problem expired.
I just didn't know I should have been looking out for the problem because I didn't get the letter Toyota sent to the owners of these cars in 2002. If I did get a letter, I would have found a way to take it to the dealer to make sure my car didn't have the problem. I know sludge is a monster.
Instead, I drove around for the last few years and I'm sure made the problem worse despite getting oil changes regularly!
I was really hoping there was a potential link either to the O2 or knock sensor (the mechanic said the car did not knock so I guess something else made that one activate)
Anyway, thanks for the advice : )
I periodically checked the oil and other resevoirs and had no problems, other than air conditioning, with the vehicle.
On a frigid January evening this year, I started the car at night after leaving class and I noticed what I thought was a plume of smoke in the rear view mirror. I convinced myself that it was just the exhaust tempered by the cold weather, and drove home with no incident. A few days later, I noticed the smoke, again and while driving home, the car started to stall and idle almost violently at a stop light. This would happen at every stop light. I made it home and checked what I thought was the oil dipstick, which was full. I noticed the car was very hot and unscrewed the top of the oil resevoir and steam and smoke poured out of it for minutes. It was late and dark in my garage and I decided to revisit the situation in the light of morning. I took the manual in the house and realized that I had been checking the dipstick right next to the oil resevoir, but that this was the power steering dipstick. The oil dipstick is located on the other side of the engine, towards the back. There was singed oil on the inside of the oil resevoir cap and the oil was nearly gone. I put 4 quarts in the engine and decided if the problem persisted, I'd take it into the dealership.
The problem perisisted, I took it into the dealership explaining same and they called saying I needed new plugs and wires. They charged me $400 and sent me on my way. The car drove beautifully, though there were hints of minor exhaust smoke a few days later.
After 2 months and 600 miles, the car started exhibiting the same exact symptoms as before. I took it back to Lexus and they then said I needed new rings on the engine pistons. They said the rings are failing and oil is mixing with the gas and the engine sensors are detecting it. He said the idling and near engine shutdown was caused by the wires falling out and the plugs being dirty with oil. When I questioned him as to what they did the first time to get it running back smoothly, he said they replaced the bad plugs, cleaned off the good ones and replaced the wires. He said the plugs were again oily and the wires were again fallng out. They told me they could get me a rebuilt engine for $7,800. Not an option.
At no point during this debacle did the oil light ever illuminate, other than when the car was idling violently and threatening to shut down.
Unfortunately, I don't have much confidence in the Lexus service repair department to tell me what is acutally going on, as I find it hard to believe that they didn't discern the problem was internal to the engine the first time I took it in, rather they felt it was unlikely I'd get the engine repaired there, so they sold me what they could to get what they could out of me. Call me paranoid (OK, along with stupid for checking the wrong dipstick all these months).
Finally, here are my questions: Does this diagnosis sound legitimate? What should I look for in terms of credentials and experience in an auto mechanic when/if I take it in for a second opinion or repair? What is a 'reasonable' charge to replace the rings on the pistons?
I'd really appreciate your help.
This gives a quantitative measurement of internal engine wear, and will tell you if its the rings, the valve guides, the valve stem seals, or just excessive crankcase pressure.
Without this test, everyone's just guessing.
If the test has been done, they should be able to show you actual results on a print-out.
Thanks, again!
But any good import shop knows how to do this.
I called the dealership today and they have yet to return the call.
Say that they did use this test and it does in fact reveal the rings need to be replaced. I know prices vary from shop to shop, but what is a reasonable price for this kind of repair? I need to decide whether to invest further in the vehicle or to trade it in.
Shello
But since they haven't really tested it they don't know yet, or they didn't tell you properly what they found. Perhaps you have worn valve guides or valve stem seals, which would give the exact same symptoms but only require removal of the cylinder heads---perhaps a $1,500 repair.
Do you think the rings or seals or guides could have been caused from not having enough oil? There was a lot of steam and heat built up in the engine when I took off the oil resevoir cap and noticed the singed oil on the underside of the cap.
I'm assuming that the cost of replacing the rings and/or the other ancillary things you mentioned would cost more than the $1,500 for guides or stem seals? Much more?
Shello
The wear on valve guides could be construed as within "normal" wear at 87K....quite premature but not unheard of...maybe there should have been more frequent oil changes. I have no idea of the car's previous service records.
I think if they bust open the entire engine, that is "go into the lower end" rather than just stay on the "upper end" (cylinder heads", then you will surely exceed $1,500 unless it's some kind of down and dirty patch job. Most of the cost is a) the labor to disassemble and assemble the engine and b) the machining costs. The actual parts are not very expensive---rings, gaskets, hoses, clamps, belts, etc.
Offhand, I'd say your car is an excellent candidate for a used engine, should the cylinder leakdown test show excessive ring wear. Remember, you cannot successfully install a new, perfectly round ring on a worn piston running in an oblong cylinder bore. It won't last but a few thousand miles before burning oil again. Everything must be "trued up" and made factory tight again.
I finally heard back from the Lexus Service Manager.
He stated that they didn't arrive at the ring failure determination from performing a cylinder leakdown test. Instead, they determined that it had to be the failure of the rings because oil was 'fouling out' the spark plugs, even the newly installed ones, and the only way that oil could get to the spark plugs was if the rings had failed.
He said the rings were failing on multiple cylinders.
Like you, he also told me that is was highly unlikely on a "Lexus engine" that the trouble was being caused by a valve problem.
He went on to articulate what is involved in rebuilding the engine and said that with the labor involved (40-50 hours), it would exceed the cost of even a factory new engine from Lexus ($7,000).
So, now I guess my only option if I'm going to keep the vehicle is getting a used engine.
My only experience with such an endeavor is when I had a new transmission put into a Hyundai Excel. I shopped around at auto salvage yards and found a mechanic to install it. I then promptly drove it from his shop to an auto dealer and traded it in.
Should I just start calling auto salvage shops and shop around for engines? Are there internet sites where I can shop for the engines?
I know the price will vary depending on the mileage, but can you give me a ballpark figure of what is a good price given a certain mileage range? Also, what should be a reasonable labor charge for removing the old and installing the new engine?
I remember when I had the transmission done, the warranty for the transmission was only 90 days and the mechanics work was only guaranteed for 30. Would the warranty be much the same on engines?
I know I'm probably asking a lot of you, but any help you can provide will help me make a decision.
Thanks for all of your help and patience.
Shello
I'm sorry, but they are wrong about that.
Bad valve guides or valve stem seals could certainly foul spark plugs, and in fact could do so more easily than bad rings. Why? Because with bad valve stem seals or guides, the oil can drop into the combustion chamber with the engine shut off, putting a lot more oil onto the cold plugs than bad rings can do on warm plugs.
I'd still say that without a cylinder leakdown test, Lexus is just walking around with a blindfold throwing darts at your checkbook.
One step at a time. First, "nail" the problem. Automobiles are science, they are not sessions with a psychic.
In the meantime, I talked to a company that specializes in engine auto parts. Their rep told me that the engine on the Camry and Avalon is the exact same engine as the Lexus ES 300 and can be used interchangably. Is that correct?
He told me he could get me a Certified Used Camry engine for $1,650 (no tax)delivered to a commercial address. He said that engine has 41K miles on it.
He had a certified Rebuilt Lexus engine he could get me for $3,500.
He also had a certified Lexus engine remanufactured by Jasper, for $2,800.
According to them, each engine is thoroughly inspected, leak-down and run-tested. Their warranty covers the ‘long block’(cylinder block, cylinder heads, valves, crankshaft, connecting rods, pistons, bearings, rocker arms, camshafts and all of the internal moving parts).
Can the Lexus, Camry and Avalon engines be used interchangably? Since I have a baseline for the engine prices, what is a ballpark figure for labor for installing the engine?
I will call the Lexus dealer back and see if I can't get a leakdown test, free of charge, since they misdiagnosed the problem the first time (charging me $400 for new wires) and just guessed the second time I brought it in.
I think I'm getting close to being able to navigate these waters.
Shello
I need to get a range on either the hours or the dollar amount so I can shop with some knowledge of what is reasonable and what is outlandish. As a woman, some auto personnel will often try to take us to the cleaners, assuming we know nothing about cars, which is why I'm trying to learn before actually shopping for what I need.
You assistance has been invaluable.
Shello
Then you'll probably want a coolant flush for the "new" used engine.
When I took it in, Lexus said I only had @ another 500 miles on the drive belt. They wanted $500 bucks to put a new one on. I wasn't sure I was going to keep the car so I took a pass.
Luckily I have another car I can borrow so I can afford to spend some time shopping around for a reliable shop that's not going to steal me blind.
The company I called about the used engine recommends that new spark plugs, water pump, thermostat and fan belts be used. They also recommend using the car's existing oil pan to minimize problems.
Does all that sound necessary to you?
OK, so I guess I lied when I said I had no more questions :-)
Thanks for your help.
Shello
I have a '98 ES with 135K well taken care of miles. How many of you have had your belts replaced? Some mechanics have said the belt does not need to be replaced.
got a 93 es300.
It supposes to rotate slowly when the car is idle and as you push the gas paddle, it will go faster.
The fan in my car is running fast on idle and will run even faster when I push the gas paddle. It is noisy, no heat problem.
What is the problem?
I heard there is a solenoid mounted on the steering pump that controls how much hydraulic fluid gets to the fan motor.
Or
Is there a control valve, and where does it sit?
Any help
Thanks
It was the solenoid mounted on the steering pump that controls how much hydraulic fluid gets to the fan motor.
I replaced the steering pump with the solenoid mounted on it. It solve the problem. The fan now runs normal.
I bought the power steering for $230 (Remanuf.) with shipping from the auto parts at
1888-231-5286. The dealers price is in the range of $500.
Yes you can buy the solenoide sepratre, but the dealer price is about $200.
Maval P/S Pump
1994-1996 Lexus ES300Complete with hydraulic cooling fan solenoid.. FITS (ENGINE/CHASSIS) SKU PRICE QTY
1994-1996 Lexus ES300 W0133-1604107 $208.99
Current Problems:
1. In hot temperatures (75-80 degrees or above) in city traffic when I have the AC on, the temperature gauge can get right up to the overheat zone so, I'll intermittently turn the AC off to get it to go back down. And a few times I had to turn the temperature to HOT and the fan on High and it brought the engine temperature back down to where it normally sits, which is just below the middle line. This started last fall in '07 but had no issues during the winter months. My mechanic thinks I should replace the radiator thinking there's crystallization build up causing the issue. Someone else thinks its just the thermostat. Any thoughts out there?
2. I've also started noticing a lack of gusto from the engine when the AC is on. Any one else have this issue and know why?
Past Problems:
1. I've had 2 cylinders replaced due to what my mechanic claims was a burnt out coil. Supposedly water somehow got into the cylinder and the coil corroded and 'spun out'. I'm afraid that this is going to happen again and at $300 a pop, not cheap. The symptoms were the CEL flashing and the car dropped in speed, barely being able to do 10-20mph along with chugging and no response when you tried to press the gas.
2. The current CEL code (for several months now) had been that the Catalytic Converter isn't working as well as it should and so, in the infinite wisdom of Lexus Thinking, the Traction Control is disabled. Which bites in the winter time here in MN. ha! :P
3. The previous owner rarely changed the transmission oil and it was severely burnt when I purchased it. My mechanic has been keeping an eye on it for me and I'm nervous that it might go out in the next year or so as it will tend to slip in the cold weather when I first get going or even when I yield for stop signs that are on a decline and flatten out or go uphill.
Hope this post helps others and that others can help me out. I know this was long but I though it necessary for the public's use.
I'd love to keep this car running another year at the least! Any suggestions and thoughts are welcome! The car get's all kinds of compliments and people are surprised by the high mileage and think it's only a couple years old!
NOT GOOD.
Oil contamination and fouling of the plugs could be a direct result of over filling the engine with oil. Not only that, subsequent failure of the oil rings could have also resulted from over filling.
In other words.
"you screwed the pooch...!!!"