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Comments
Yeah, your correct, If compare the camry with the accord, IMO the accord has the better interior,
there is also the Acura and Lexus divisions that could be compared in terms of design and materials. Poking at Acura would be all too easy, and that would counter your statement that Honda is gaining on Toyota in terms of design and materials, at least as far as the Acura division goes.
As I mentioned Toyota has forgotten itself,its only making Lexus more luxurious, but the Toyota brand is getting rather more and more simple.
BTW, do you agree with me that Honda's Insight kicks the Prius in the butt
Yes, 100% unless the Prius production version changes.
It's nine inches shorter than the 6 Series coupe.
You tell me which one it's closer in size--and price--to
Closer in size, 3 series,
Price,3 series as well!
Your correct, 6 series is in a different category.
If I wanted a coupe, would chosen the A5 S5.
How true. Just look at the car lineup:
-Avalon... plain and simple... dull and boring.
-Camry... a "must succeed" vehicle for Toyota, and it pulls it off, although it is still somewhat dull and boring, IMO. But, I'll give Toyota credit for the Camry. The hybrid variant of the Camry is noteworthy and has its merits.
-Solara... another loser.
-Corolla... the refresh isn't good enough, and the car handles poorly. It's only good for the CR folks.
-Matrix... what's the point? Generations X,Y,and Z? Kill the Matrix. It's weird.
-Prius... an excellent achievement of technology that is about to be replaced by a freakish update that has a new nose job that resembles the Yaris. If it weren't for the fact that it is a hybrid, it would never sell well.
Yaris... Absolutely pathetic.
And... the SUV's are mostly messed up, too. The FJ and Sequoia are dead. The 4-Runner is long-in-the-tooth, and the Highlander got a bad-looking redesign, although it is their smartest SUV, IMO. The RAV4 is decent enough for an SUV of that size. The TLC is now way too expensive. The new Venza is still a wildcard, but its appearance leaves a lot to be desired.
The trucks are messed up as well. The Tundra is sized improperly, and doesn't really offer the kind of full-sized truck that mainstream America is after, and it's butt-ugly. The Tacoma is actually a decent small truck, IMO, but somehow it lost it's cool-factor that it once had.
The Sienna is a minivan... and the Odyssey is simply better... nothing more needs to be said about that one.
Toyota had better see the light, or they'll be sorry.
It does appear that Honda is sneaking up on Toyota... and carrying a big hammer. (And while we're at it, let's add VW here. They are starting to sneak up on Toyota as well, IMO.)
Don't forget, though, I'm biased... as I've posted in the past, I really like Honda as a company. (Although I'm disappointed recently in their Acura division.) I'd be content to see them kick the !@#$%! out of Toyota.
TM
Avalon... plain and simple... dull and boring
It was supposed to be the Japanese Buick, what do you expect?
-Camry... a "must succeed" vehicle for Toyota, and it pulls it off, although it is still somewhat dull and boring, IMO.
Camry SE actually out handles Accord according to MT yet people still knock on the Camry... Personally I commend Toyota's strategy on offering two version of its popular midsize sedan (SE and LE/XLE) for different group of buyers. More choice means more power to the consumers.
-Solara... another loser.
It is going away. If you want the loser in this class you should take a look at the Altima coupe...
-Corolla... the refresh isn't good enough, and the car handles poorly. It's only good for the CR folks.
CR folks? Last I checked there are A LOT of them out there. Let's not keep forgetting that we are the minority.
-Matrix... what's the point? Generations X,Y,and Z? Kill the Matrix. It's weird.
It's a Corolla wagon. People/enthusiasts kept asking for more wagons in the US so it's not that pointless...
-Prius... an excellent achievement of technology that is about to be replaced by a freakish update that has a new nose job that resembles the Yaris. If it weren't for the fact that it is a hybrid, it would never sell well.
Personally I think the new Prius looks great, better than the new Honda Insight (There's the famous "beauty is in the eyes of the beholder). Also, who buys the Prius for its looks anyways? If this thing can return 60 mpg combine with LI batteries coming in the second year then it can be looking like a pig but people will still flock the lot trying to get one...
Yaris... Absolutely pathetic.
Not so pathetic at this economy and to people who can't have 911S, 335i, MDX and Jag XJ on their driveways...
FJ - never was a volume seller
Sequoia - Check out other full size BOF SUVs in the class. Yup, they are all doing pretty terrible.
4-Runner - See Sequoia
Highlander - Personally I think the new Highlander looks much much better than the previous gen in both exterior and interior. Toyota is returning the 4-banger engine (brand new engine with around 190HP and better FE) to the Highlander lineup beginning next year so the future is looking up.
RAV4 - Also getting the new 4-banger. Still the second (a very close second) best selling compact CUV in its class.
Tundra - Actually won the MT truck of the year award and simply is a better truck than its competitors at debut. If you take a look at Edmunds IL's long term blog you'll see that the Tundra is actually favored over the Silverado. The previous gen Tundra was being made fun of not being the "real" full-size pick up and when Toyota actually gave them one then it's "sized improperly"? The logic seems off somewhere to this engineer... Tundra is a great truck but just happened to be in the wrong economy plain and simple. Take a look at others' sales number then you'll see.
Tacoma - Still the best selling midsize pickup. Period.
Honda is sneaking up on Toyota only because of it is really not a full-line auto manufacture, take out Toyota's BOF products then it's a whole new story. Once Toyota finishes it's product realignment (shifting truck plants to produce more sedans and assemble Prius here in the stateside) then Honda's advantage will likely to be gone. And then there is the Acura vs. Lexus thingy, not to mention there will be more hybrid models coming for Lexus in the very near future (2009).
VW? I am not eve going to go there... All I would say is that Toyota is gaining in China much faster than VW is gaining (is it even gaining?) here in the states. Anyone with half a brain can see where is it going with this trend...
But then again, I am bised... :P
I do think that Toyota has its work cut out for itself, as do the rest of the manufacturers at this point in history. It's really a whole new ball game now, and these companies are being challenged to their very core.
I have no doubt that Toyota will be successful in spite of some bumps in the road.
TM
The old Highlander and the old Pilot actually looked pretty similar. Toyota went with a weird jellybean shape this time, while Honda went in the total opposite direction and made a brick. The Highlander's interior does look much more modern than before, but materials quality is WAY down. Sharp and hard GM style plastics everywhere.
Honda has completely forgotten how to make an ergonomic center stack. That stupid control knob has utterly ruined their interiors for me. Frankly I don't think either of them has any real style or design leaders, even just among the Japanese competition.
The new Mazda6 and Maxima are both better looking, better performers, and have better interiors than Accord and Camry/Avalon. I like the outgoing Mazda3 better than the Civic, and the new '10 version will probably be even better. The 5-door version also is infinitely better than the Matrix. The Corolla remains nothing but a transport appliance for people who hate cars.
...materials quality is WAY down...
That all gets to the point that was being made earlier, that in a general sense, Toyota's design and quality of materials has eroded.
The Corolla remains nothing but a transport appliance for people who hate cars.
OUCH! (but, I agree.)
The difference between Honda and Toyota is that I see almost nothing from Toyota that is getting better (with regards to design appearance and quality of materials), while Honda has the recent CR-V, the recent Civic,the upcoming Insight, which looks decent for a five door hatch hybrid and is based on the reasonably-attractive FCX limited-production fuel cell vehicle. The upcoming CR-Z looks like it might be another winner, and the atttractive open study concept, which might replace the good-looking S2000. So, there are definate signs of hope in the design department at Honda.
No doubt that Mazda and Nissan have done their homework, but they have major areas of weakness as well.
I guess I'll go out on a limb here and post that out of all the current and very soon-to-be Asian vehicles, a few that stand out for me are the G37, GT-R, and Z-car from Nissan/Infiniti, the IS350 and IS-F from Toyota/Lexus, the MDX, S2000, Civic, CR-V, FCX, the new Insight and upcoming CR-Z from Honda, the MazdaSpeed 3, and MX-5 Miata from Mazda of course, the Genesis from Hyundai, The Evo from Mitsubishi, and to some extent even the WRX from Subaru. I might have missed one or two, but those are a few that quickly come to mind for now.
TM
LOL, :P
Have you ever consider being a writer?
Since every1 has answered everything, I have nothing more to ask or add :shades:
We better get back to Luxury cars
Indeed. The Titan has been a massive disaster for Nissan, and I doubt the Quest and Armada are doing much better. The Versa is getting hammered by the Honda Fit, and the Sentra is just awful. Mazda still has too many rebadged Fords, the turbo four doesn't really work in the CX-7, and the V6 6 has woeful fuel economy. They're also going to have to do something with that dirty, oil-guzzling wankel. Not exactly a PC engine these days.
Subaru seems to be actively trying to kill itself. Subaru customers aren't looking for an AWD Toyota. They want something weird/ugly that's at least half decent to drive. Now it's like their designers are having a contest to out-bland each other.
Well, why not add General Motors, Chrysler, and Ford (and maybe even Mitsubishi) to the suicide list. Will they actually succeed in their self destruction? We'll see, but if they don't completely destroy themselves, they will certainly end up as very different companies than they have been up to this point. And, of course, Ford also committed homicide with Jaguar, which is now trying to survive life-support by way of Tata Motors. Honda is attempting internal sabatoge of its own Acura division, but it's own Honda line-up is poised for major success... no, massive success, IMO.
And the little darling, Tesla Motors, is already in a serious cash-flow dilemma, as it must speed up production while cutting itself in half.
The automotive landscape is undergoing the first steps of major change, and the question of bailouts and whether or not we will have an economy that can support the auto industry as we've known it, is in the process of being answered.
On a side note, I think the Germans are going to benefit from all of these changes, but they will need to introduce their newer, more fuel-efficient products sooner than they had anticipated.
The Versa is getting hammered by the Honda Fit
The competitive damage will continue as the Honda Fit will receive its first hybrid powertrain in the near future. Also, I would expect that the CR-V, which is already a smashing success story, will get a hybrid or diesel variant within two model years.
TM
I had my Jaguar X-type serviced at Jaguar Thailand and was charged for 8 liter of engine oil change even though the spec requires only 6.5. Several enquiries were made to Jaguar Thailand and Jaguar UK and, after over a month, there seem to be no one responsible for this unethical act. So, beware and be warned!!
Somebody is going to go C11. I'm just not sure yet which one will be first. My guess is that Ford will scrape by, GM will go C11, and Cerberus will cut and run from Chrysler as fast as they can. Only their ego has kept them in this money torching uber-failure this long, but they won't kill themselves to stay in a business they never really wanted to be in. GM may swallow what's left (if they can actually find somebody to give them the credit to do so) or Chrysler may be split up and sold off to various parties.
On a side note, I think the Germans are going to benefit from all of these changes, but they will need to introduce their newer, more fuel-efficient products sooner than they had anticipated.
We'll see. M-B isn't in great shape right now, but Porsche/VWAG and BMW are doing reasonably well considering the climate.
Honda will no doubt continue to make a killing in small cars, it's what they are best at. Trying to push Acura up to peer level with Lexus, let alone the Germans, is another story. They aren't doing a cut-price LS460, ala Genesis. They are doing an LS460 priced LS460. Who is going to buy a $70K Acura? All of those Phaeton owners?
Indeed, it makes both Camry and Accord look incredibly dull by comparison. The interior is a bit less luxurious than the new Maxima's, but it's more driver focused, and more importantly it's a big improvement over the dirt cheap interior in the old 6.
Notice the reasonable number of buttons and reasonable layout. Honda used to do things that way. Now they do things like this:
I saw it advertised on tonight's MNF game. I was very impressed, and even mentioned what a good-looking car it has become.
Notice the reasonable number of buttons and reasonable layout. Honda used to do things that way. Now they do things like this:
Better known as the "shotgun interior"... LOL.
Actually, I've taken a close look at that layout, which is from the Accord, and it is indeed quite menacing at first glance, but a second and third look reveals that there is actually some logic to the madness. Climate controls, audio controls, and navigation controls are fairly well segregated into their own sections, and most functions have a clear analog control. Now, I'm not suggesting that it's a preferable approach, because it's not... but, it's really not as bad as it looks.
TM
The problem is it looks really, really bad. Why is there a menu, info, AND a setup button? Control knobs are supposed to reduce the number of dash buttons, not increase them. Even BMW knows that.
Honda provides those direct-access buttons.
Gee... Damned if you do and damned if you don't
TM!
Regards,
OW
Sorry Tag but I will have to wholeheartedly disagree with you 100 percent with this one particular statement of yours above.
German auto makers are in very serious trouble. MB and BMW, Audi and Porsche are in the worst segments possible during slower global economic times. Their engineering is first rate. Their marketing strategies are first rate. Even their customer satisfaction statistics have improved substantially during the years. All 4 marques have done every single thing they could do except one thing. WRONG MARKET SEGMENT!
Suzuki auto sales are booming.
Is it because of their engineerng? :sick:
Is it because of their marketing strategies?
Is it because of high customer satisfaction :lemon:
Nope it's because they are in the right market segment! That's the only reason.
Honda is doing better than Toyota solely because it does not have V8 trucks and SUVs. Toyota is the leader not only in terms of sales but also in terms of technologies that really count for the future (hybrids, plug ins). Honda luck resembles the luck of Suzuki in terms of having offerings that are biased towards fuel efficient vehicles.
What about the other German calledVW? They have the best prospects among the Germans primarily because their product line caters more to the frugal types.
The economy dictates market demand. Auto enthusiasm is independent of the economy and that is why many of us here discuss Italian exotics without ever intending to buy one of those overpriced lemons.
When the economy booms again then luxury German marques will luck out. But waiting for that boom may involve the patience of Job.
.
It also gives them choices to subsidise leases to gain volume or offer other incentives to increase sales. I agree that this segment will come under pressure due to recent economic changes, but in most industries the high end consumer has been less affected than the lower end when it comes to income and spending patterns. There are areas of the country where expensive homes are still selling well but low end homes don't move, the car industry may go the same way for a while.
At the end of the day I don't think any of these companies would switch places with lower end brands. I do agree with you that the reason that we are here discussing these expensive cars is that econmic factors don't always dictate our interests. Most of us are fortunate to be able to drive some nice cars and even dream of the fancy Italian lemons that you've highlighted.
At the end of the day, it's still a buyers market out there. Too bad I would still pay more for a foreign brand than US brand. You really have to be a die hard to the end.
Toyota and Honda will gain share next year no doubt...at the expense of the Germans and the US.
Regards,
OW
Regards,
OW
I agree with you. Dewey makes very good points, and he presents them well, but your reply adds the perspective that I share with you.
TM
You would definately hurt yourself in a 135i... you are right when you say the power is excessive. The car is not for you.
The entire auto industry is under pressure. BMW will be fine, unlike General Motors, for example.
TM
Having the wife drive the VW will open up a wonderful new world for me-that of the impractical vehicle. Sounds nice....but I will believe it when I see it. Nothing on order yet.
I read your posts "elsewhere" to the dude who couldn't make up his mind in choosing between the GTI and the 128i. I agree that if one really loves driving, the 128i in stock form will be a more satisfying experience than the front-drive GTI. The only choice I will be making if given events fall into place is 328i coupe vs 128i coupe. Different dealer, though.
I agree with you that BMW is hurting in NA. The entire leftover 2008 BMW model line in the USA is going for an unprecedented 0.9% financing at this time. As if that isn't bad enough, the 2009 models have already started showing up on dealers' lots at this time, making a huge glut of unsold BMW vehicles going forward inevitable. Also, BMW has shot itself in the foot by making their leasing terms undesirable. If BMW thinks people will buy BMW vehicles long-term at 0.9% and risk expensive warranty repairs after 4 years, instead of leasing short-term, their nuts!! Big mistake!! These potential customers will simply go elsewhere.
With the significant quantity of unsold 2008's now being joined by an onslaught of soon to be unsold 2009's, I see BMWFS offering 0.9% on the 2009 models by the second quarter of 2009. The only choice BMW has in the USA to avoid catastrophe at this time is to seriously cut production of its vehicles.
I resent your labeling me as a VW owner, "frugal." Haven't I been the guy who spares no expense on buying the world's best rum so my wife can continue to manufacture her intensely-satisfying rum cake?
I was looking for a German, fun to drive, relatively fuel-efficient, practical vehicle that could hold my 68" road bike in the back. There weren't that many choices out there. Idiotic BMW chose to release the totally useless X6 instead of a practical hatchback variation of the 1 Series which really could have been something, that I and a lot of folks would have been interested in. Too bad.
The wife is making a serious attempt at learning how to drive and if she gets her license, I will give her the VW and buy myself an impractical fun to drive vehicle like the 128i Coupe. I have issues with the Coupe's external appearance. However, the way I plan to drive it, nobody will see it anyway!
After driving the 545i for three years, and not even being close to tapping its power resources, the last thing I want is a 135i.
Happy Driving! :shades:
Post #15630: ...the last thing I want is a 135i.
:surprise: I don't think you are schizophrenic, but you might be having an internal tug of war.
I'm kidding you. There are times when I know that I have absolutely no need for the power that's in the 135i. It is a lot for that vehicle.
The 128i is an awesome vehicle, that is more than adequate for most needs, and you will appreciate its fuel economy as compared to the 135i. The 135i is so much fun, and I do love it, but it is indeed excessive power much of the time, and the 128i has plenty. It would also provide a lot of fun and enjoyment, there is no doubt.
You would not be sorry to get either the 128i coupe or the 328i coupe. You won't find me poking at you if you were to get the N/A engine. It's a fine choice.
Happy Driving, Indeed! :shades:
TM
Overall I agree with you. And yes people in the lower end of the income/net worth spectrum will feel more pain than the affluent. But relative to the middle classes the wealthy are going to suffer more than in prior recession and that will not only be due to likely Obama tax hikes for those who earn 250k or over. (Based on recent polls that is very very likely)
I wish my response could be a bit more brief but unfotunratly I will have to bore you with a long winded response.
What is amazing, truly amazing is that this economic slowdown is being compared to the Great Depression.
Unemployment is only around 6 percent. (it was 25 percent during the depression)
Average wages continue to grow. (it declined substantially during the depression)
US Gross National Product continues to be positive(output declined 33 percent during the depression)
The US Dollar is at a one and a half year high compared to the Euro
Trillions of overseas money continues to flow to the USA(certainly not a sign of no confidence)
Credit card and Corporate defaults are only a fraction of what they were in recent recessions
Does the above sound like a DEPRESSION to you or to anyone? Does this even sound like a recession to you?
Nope it doesn’t?
So far this is not an economic crisis but mainly a credit crisis that has not yet adversely affected the economy yet.
BUT what makes this different from prior recessions is that almost every single asset has been inflated by too much debt. Now we are paying the price with these major asset deflations in equities, real estate, fixed income, commodities, emerging market assets. Almost every asset class is falling like a anchor except T-Bills and to a lesser degree gold.
So who are the main owners of all these inflated assets? The wealthy ofcourse! And yes the wealthy are going to suffer as a result of this major asset deflation we are going through right now.
That does not mean the wealthy are going to trade in their Bentleys for Corollas and their mansion for a rent control dwelling but what it does mean is that the biggest asset owners are going to suffer more relative wealth/income loss than the employed middle classes and even unemployed middle classes who dont have large mortgages and debts (unlike other recession where the rich were not as affected).
And yes the most unfortunate ones among the wealthy are the ones who have borrowed heavily to increase their wealth. Recently quite a few Russian Billionaires are struggling to raised collateral to satisfy recent margin calls. Unfortunately it is not only fat cat Russians who are suffering but also westerners who happen to have invested in leveraged vehicles like hedge funds, private equity and trillions of dollars of derivatives.
So yes unlike prior economic slow downs the pain will be shared more equally . :sick:
No offense about VW frugality. I view frugality as a badge of honor . That is why I am looking into buying a new Toyota Prius.
No... it's going to be a LEXUS for you! You don't want that fugly upcoming Yaris-nosed Prius. Besides, the Lexus hybrid will show all of your clients that you are successful and frugal all rolled up into one! The perfect combination for today's financial advisor!
And, if it turns out that the Lexus also looks bad, there's always the new Honda Insight. So, you can't miss here!
(BTW, I've been buying certain stocks at every big dip. I hope it works out, because it is emotionally difficult to do.)
TM
All for about $5k less than the Prius.
Just a thought.
PS: I had words today with my financial advisor. They were....
"Go ahead! Jump! Jump!"
The image of a Honda Fit and that of a hybrid vehicle are night and day. Anyone from any walk of life can feel right at home in a hybrid such as a Prius. But the Honda Fit has a different image... one that's a tad closer to stretching a budget. You can find a successful person from a large corporation, a politician, or a celebrity behind the driver's wheel of a Prius... but who's behind the wheel of a Honda Fit? Now, before you misunderstand me, let me assure you I know that the Honda Fit has great merits, and certainly has many very successful owners, and I do actually lilke the vehicle...
But... that said, the image associated with the Honda Fit is potentially different than the one Dewey needs to project, IMVHO, and a "Lexus Prius" would project a near perfect image for his line of work in today's world.
All for about $5k less than the Prius.
Well... don't forget that Honda's own upcoming Insight Hybrid will also be thousands less than a Prius.
TM
In any event, luxo brands are going along for the ride across the board.
Regards,
OW
I still believe that we will look back on this time as a great buying opportunity for stocks or other assets. At least that is how I am rationalizing my recent buys that look crazy to my wife. I still belive that they are better investments than the two new cars that I got this year, although I love them I can measure the depriciation daily.
Only by those with an axe to grind and/or those who can neither read nor write. There seem to be quite a few these days, eh?
If the Socialists win, the economy will suddenly appear much brighter to those who write & broadcast this tripe, I'm guessing.
If speed limits become abolished here, I will be first in line to obtain BMW's wonderful award-winning twin turbo engine. I'm not holding my breath. A good question is why does BMW bother importing the 135i, 335i and 550i to these shores. Most folks don't have track access, so what's the point?
Yes. The next BMW will have to be a 328i or 128i. I'm leaning toward the latter. The more impractical, the better. Plenty of fun available from BMW's terrific inline 6.
Yes. Let's see if the Honda hybrid division gets it right this time with the Insight after its embarrassing hybrid Accord disaster.
Nice.
LOL.
Last I checked on my ballot, there were no Socialists running for office. :surprise:
If you are referring to the recent suggestion that restoring the additional 3% tax to the upper bracket affecting the wealthiest 5% of Americans (which includes myself, I must admit) is somehow a Socialist idea, then George Bush Sr. was also a Socialist in addition to being a liar, because he raised our taxes, even after he said "Read my lips, no new taxes". But, taxes have been a part of our democracy for a long time, and they have been adjusted many times. Every time they were adjusted, some "wealth was redistributed", and that didn't make everyone in our government a bunch of "Socialists".
Steve, I sure hope you aren't buying into that "Socialist" BS.
I would much rather pay a little extra tax increase on some large income, than pay a little less tax on small income, due to a slow economy. And, after owning my business for over 25 years, I am absolutely positive that we are in an economic slowdown, in additioin to other economic challenges, in case you haven't noticed. Putting more money in the hands of the middle class consumer will cause more spending, which is what fuels the American economic engine, and ultimately makes the rest of us richer.
That isn't Socialism... that's good old American capitalism at its best. God, I love this country! :shades:
TM
Hmmm... it sounds almost predatory!
TM
Ditch the laptop and suit if you wanna stay alive, Mr Corporate
Regards,
Jose
PS: Still having pleasure to contribute to money circulation by driving my car, which is even funnier every mile left behind. :mad:
Honda provides those direct-access buttons.
Gee... Damned if you do and damned if you don't
TM!
How true,
No matter what the auto industry does,there will always be someone whos going to criticized.
Nice to see some people see things a bit differently than the way they presented in the media.
Save $5K?
Right now with these stockmarkets a Honda Fit is beginning to sound like a luxury and frugality is beginning to sound like a K-Car.
My income is fee based. My own personal portfolio resembles my clients' portfolios.
In otherwords I eat my own home cooking and right now it's an unappetizing gourmet meal.
Pass me those grilled backyard grasshoppers please and hold the Dijon Mustard.
So what brought me back here?
The Audi bias here became so overwhelming I decided to add some BMW bias here.
Thank you. That was Clarkson at his best.