Luxury Lounge

tagman

I think the ethanol as a pure play is a poor one as it doesn`t have the btu...

But ethanol does have more than enough energy potential to work with. Since there has been so much reference to Lotus and Tesla, etc., here is another case in point about the potential for ethanol use, once again from our smart friends at Lotus...

link title

TagMan

dewey

BMW Management Moxie + BMW Products = # 1 2007 Luxury Sales in USA and the Globe

One month's sales are not Bible figures but they are most relevant. The BMW SUV models are fresh and young while the Lexus models are already beginning to show their wrinkles. And BMW 5 series sedans will soon be getting a new twin turbo powerplant. Unlike BMW there is really nothing exciting going on at Lexus dealerships right now. I am willing to wager with you that by the end of the year BMW will become the #1 Luxury auto firm in USA? Are you willing to bet?

Why will BMW be number one? Because of their most desirable products. Their autos perform in a way that very few competing autos can. And as you pointed out their business model is based on extending their product lines to cover several unserved niches. A BMW business plan that has been so successful deserves respect not scorn.

Those large BMW shipments in 07 were sent before their usual every year March/April lease deals? So in that case those Feb figures are very comparable to last year's figures when 06 shipements were increased for Mar/April Lease Deals.

The lease deals I see for Lexuses here in Canada are extensive. Until today they still have lease deals on 06 Lexus IS models . And if you want a real deal then there are quite a few GX models that are being pushed quite hard here. Lease deals on the 750iL? Weren't there not special lease deals on the Lexus LS at the end of their product cycle? And if not I am sure a LS430 purchaser would have gotten a good discount recently.

Deals and incentives are not solely a BMW or MB affliction. And I can assure you Lexus is not immune to such an affliction.

dewey

I hear you Tagman.

My next car will definitely be either a diesel, a hybrid or a hybrid-diesel. I haven't made up my mind yet but I still have a lot of time to decide. In fact time will be on my side since future drivetrains are likely to improved quite radically as the years go by.

2001gs430

Hey Dewey, this article about BMW sale tactics was posted in the ELLPS forum. I think it is a big reason why BMW seems to be doing well.

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070306/UPDATE/703060451/1148- /AUTO01

houdini1

If they do reach # 1 in the U.S. (I don't think they will) they will probably go broke doing it because of the discounting they do.

However, Dewey, I will not criticize you for making this prediction because you should always walk a mile in the other persons shoes before criticizing. There are two reasons for this: One, once you are a mile away you can speak with impunity and two, you then have the other persons shoes!!

ljflx

That's the reason why BMW profits are flat for 5 years running. They low ball lease payments, high ball residuals (use the latter to make believe they have great retention value on any publisher that uses 3 year forwards rather than prior year actuals) and then get killed when leases are terminated. Then the whole process starts over every year and they need higher and higher sales to just keep pace with prior year profits. Financially reading what is happening to BMW is like reading the alphabet. It's right there in full view to anyone that's a financial pro and unless the company eases off the lease discounting it's setting up a heck of a house of cards for future growth, that being real profit growth, not give it away sales growth. You should make your highest profit margin on each new unit sold (in any business) because of all the sunk costs in the business already being absorbed and they are making zilch. The investors and anyone that looks over their numbers know the reason. Just think about a business model where just about every car you lease today (and I guarantee you they lease 80% of them) you will buy back at a loss in 24-48 months. Why do you think most banks walked from car leasing?

tagman

Compelling argument, but this is not a static environment, so expect more changes from Lexus, sooner or later, and then even more from BMW, and on and on. Those changes will tug at buyers. Sure BMW has good reasons to attract them, but Lexus being Lexus will do the same. In the long run, it's a race that both companies will do well in, but to say BMW will actually be number one is another matter.

While your points are well taken, as a businessman, I'd say that more time is needed to really see a trend line. (Secretly, I wouldn't mind a bit if you are right. )

TagMan

anthonyp

Thanks That is a very thorough article, and does point out the difference between `octane` and btu...It also makes sense when the `little bits and peaces` I have picked up over the years are added....I think the important thing about ethonol is the burning nature, and that it makes `regular gas` burn cleaner...I guess you being on the West coast, and me on the East is that there are a world of cars and trucks in our respective areas, so anything that is cleaner---in moderation-- is a step in the right direction...Tony

tagman

You're welcome. I kinda thought you'd appreciate all that information.

While maybe not as powerful as gasoline, there's certainly plenty of power in a drop of ethanol... and ethanol/gasoline cocktails. Extracting that power cleanly and efficiently is the challenge, and apparently it can be done.

TagMan

cdnpinhead

Given the power of marketing & the herd nature of the buying public, if a few high-end cars start sporting diesels that get 30+ mpg, it may very well get interesting.

Stay tuned.

ljflx

Well I think Ljflx was referring to fuel alternatives and hybrids in particular with regard to "consolidation." I guess his point is valid if there is a spike in demand, fuel prices and stringent government regulations in which case everyone would be years behind Toyota.

Dman - I can honestly tell you I had nothing to do with this excerpt below from the story - though I do agree 100% with it's likelihood. BMW's too small to survive (on their own) the big investment costs that lie ahead IMO.

"We believe BMW may be in the early chapters of a restructuring story - are investors prepared for this? Looking longer term, we believe BMW management (and the Quandt family) must consider a strategic alliance with another automotive partner to surmount the challenges of scale economies, geographic diversification and share access to new power-train technologies and emission solutions," said Morgan.

tagman

I posted this on the HELC forum, but I'm enjoying this forum over here lately, so I'll post it here, too.

It's coming... in 2009.

link title

Unlike the BlueTec diesel alliance, where BMW goes it alone... in this hybrid case, BMW and MB are partners.

TagMan

brightness04

Thank you for bringing us the link. Apparently someone financially clueful is noticing the rot, too, besides us mere mortals.

Also, this turbo-charging business is a clear sign that BMW is running into packaging problems with its I6: the cylinder bore can not get any bigger without eating into crumple zone space. Without bore increase, any displacement increase would mostly contribute to torque, not much to power. It may just be the end of the line. We may see a couple more iterations, say, (3/5)40i and perhaps even (3/5)45i, both with turbo pressure increases not actual engine displacement change, and that's about it.

maxhonda99

Dewey,

Here's a excerpt from that article somebody posted earlier:

"Even discounts on the new X5 (large SUV) are back at $4,490. The 7 Series is supported with $11,345 (Mercedes S class $3,711). Against this diluted pricing level, a 15 percent increase in February unit sales (in the U.S.) is meaningless in our view."

If BMW sales go past Lexus in 2007, they will go past by plunking $12K on the hood of every 7-series they sell and 4.5K on the hood of the brand new X5! Very impressive! Meanwhile Lexus is probably plunking down only a few grand on the 4 year old RX and probably under $3K on the LS460.

Oh yeah, and the LS is typically subsidized with lease deals in the last year or 2 of the products life cycle. The current 7-series has been subsidized since the 2nd year of it's introduction in the US. Currently I see $699 for 39 month lease term ads in local papers, which I have been seeing off and on for over a year on the 745/750. You know the weird thing is in 1997/1998 I was seeing the same EXACT lease deal on the previous generation 7-series that was cheaper in MSRP at that time.

"One month's sales are not Bible figures but they are most relevant. The BMW SUV models are fresh and young while the Lexus models are already beginning to show their wrinkles."

1/2 of BMW's SUV lineup is old. The X3 is more than midway thru it's product cycle and has not sold anywhere near as well as I'm sure BMW would have hoped. Meanwhile the Lexus RX, in it's last year to two continues with strong sales. Sure, the RX is showing wrinkles, any car after mid cycle is shows it's age, the thing is the X3 has been due for a replacement since day 1. The GX is also nearing the end of it's 5-6 year run nothing new. The only Lexus SUV showing "wrinkles" is the LX and that is due to be redesigned.

2001gs430

I guess this is confirming that Toyota/Honda have been on the right track in their focus on hybrid technology.
I wonder why the late comers don't try to team up with someone already in the game. I am sure an alliance of hybrid and diesel experts can produce very awesome products for consumers.

2001gs430

Also, this turbo-charging business is a clear sign that BMW is running into packaging problems with its I6: the cylinder bore can not get any bigger without eating into crumple zone space. Without bore increase, any displacement increase would mostly contribute to torque, not much to power. It may just be the end of the line. We may see a couple more iterations, say, (3/5)40i and perhaps even (3/5)45i, both with turbo pressure increases not actual engine displacement change, and that's about it

Yes, I was wondering about this myself. What would BMW do for power when then competitions increase the displacements of their V6s, or simply turbo charging them :surprise: . Perhaps, this is buying time for BMW to come up with a new design that is more flexible.

ljflx

Tag - the bluetec alliance read similarly and then it died. There's no guarantees this one will last. To me though it lends more crecedence that Daimler will shed Chrysler. With Chrysler in tow they don't need an alliance with BMW. Without it, they do.

This comment from the article is interesting:

"The premium hybrid cars from DaimlerChrysler and BMW should give the two companies strong turff to compete with Lexus and its popular LS hybrid along with the GS hybrid."

The LS hybrid doesn't come to market until May so what's the basis of the popularity comment? I have heard that first year production is virtually sold out so that's the only basis I can see unless they are gouging it by auto show attention.

tagman

The only Lexus SUV showing "wrinkles" is the LX

LOL. Sorry, can't buy that one.

The LX is the ancient Toyota Land Cruiser. The GX isn't all that new any more, and is little more than a fancy 4-Runner. It needs to be modernized. The RX isn't all that different in its appearance than when it first landed... it's an old design. The GX and LX need fold-flat third-row seats instead of those flip-flop seats, and the RX needs to add a third row, which will happen with the new one.

The SC is old and desperate for an update/overhaul, and Lexus knows this very well.

Heck, that's half the model line-up.

The good news for Lexus, however, is that these wrinkled models will finally be updated. The bad news is that it can't happen soon enough... and it won't.

IMO, Lexus will learn a lesson from these model cycles that are too-lengthy, and will update sooner in the future.

TagMan

tagman

Not to mention the unbelievable positive publicity that the LS600hL has received. Heck, I've even said numerous times that the LS600hL will set new standards.

The LS600hL comes with a reputation that preceeds it.

BTW, I totally believe your purchase of the LS460L was a much better/smarter move.

TagMan

tagman

It seems VW will make good use of the BlueTec technology with this:

link title

More and more it seems that 2008 will be the onset of a small diesel revolution,
as new diesel models make their premiere debut.

TagMan

ljflx

And that toughness will impact German cars significantly. I have to also laugh at the comments of Rupert Stadler, Audi's chief, that cars that are driven only 3K kilometers a year are penalized because they emit less gases as a result of being driven so lightly. Sure - and a 400 lb person with heart problems should not have his calorie intake compared to a healthy 180 lb person's calorie intake. Give me a break.

After reading some comments in here from BMW execs I have serious reservations about the leadership of that company.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/08/automobiles/08green.html?_r=1&ref=business&ore- - - - - f=slogin

volvomax

Why are you surprised?
BMW isn't Toyota.
They build big fast cars.
Not small slow ones.
For BMW to change that would probably mean commiting corporate suicide, and for what?
Even today we don't have a full understanding of our climate and what affects it.
to make regulatory policy without a real understanding of the consequences is asinine.

dewey

Yes you are so right GS incentives is one reason for BMW's success and I repeat success.

Return on Investments (ROI) consists of margins and sales turnover. Apparently BMW is shrewdly enhancing it turnover at the expense of margins and contributing positively to its ROI.

So ingenious that this brings me to my next post please read further.........

dewey

By Nicola Leske
Reuters
Thursday, March 8, 2007; 9:05 AM

FRANKFURT (Reuters) - BMW (BMWG.DE), the world's largest premium carmaker, is raising its dividend by more than 9 percent after record 2006 earnings that were buoyed by a one-off gain, the company said on ThursdayGroup earnings before tax rose by a quarter to 4.124 billion euros ($5.4 billion),


"The past year has been the best financial year so far in the company's history," Chief Executive Norbert Reithofer said.
"We were able to achieve and in some areas do even better than the targets we set for ourselves in 2006," he added.

With a 28 percent rise in net income to a record 2.874 billion euros, BMW proposed raising its dividend to 0.70 euros per ordinary share from 0.64 euros a year earlier and to 0.72 euros per preferred share from 0.66 euros.

Revenues advanced 5 percent to 48.9 billion thanks to strong sales volume and growth in the financial services unit, it said.

Reithofer reiterated BMW was aiming for record sales volume again this year in all three brands, which analysts said seemed reasonable thanks to the full availability of the new Mini and an extended BMW 3 Series line-up. The second-generation Mini subcompact went on sale in Europe in November.

link title

dewey

Oh and by the way Ljflx,

regarding those high BMW lease incentives in the USA? Why dont I let the CEO of BMW tell you himself what he will do with those incentives:

At the Geneva motor show this week, Reithofer pledged to reduce incentives for vehicles sold in the U.S. market as new models help lift deliveries above last year's mark.

The LS600hL is exciting and sold out? Could it be because so few have been made? And I can guarantee you this the LS hybrid will become a technological joke and embarassment in a few years when new and exciting things happen with hybrid technology.

dewey

are investors prepared for this? Looking longer term, we believe BMW management (and the Quandt family) must consider a strategic alliance with another automotive partner to surmount the challenges of scale economies, geographic diversification and share access to new power-train technologies and emission solutions," said Morgan.

Based on the comment above BMW can be successfully independent. Independence and strategic alliances are not mutually exclusive. A strategic alliance does not mean an acquisition or a merger.

2001gs430

It's too bad that we can't lease BMWs from across the border. I would have given BMW a try if there were good values in aquiring one.

dewey

I know it is a shame.

I was open minded about leasing the 335i and 530xi touring but the figures were not compelling enough.

dewey

My mother is interested in a new Benz and I am thinking of telling her to wait for the C Class Blutec. A small luxury car with bang for the buck in terms of mileage sounds like a pretty good package to me.

My mother currently drives the 00 MB C240. The CR ratings for her car consists of a lot of black dots. Despite those black dots her C240 has been problem free these past 6 years.

dewey

Is it USA?

Nope.

Japan?

Nope

Germany?

Definitely not.

So who is the largest car producer in the world?

China.

Car production in China increased by 16 times since 1997.

Financial Times

tagman

German automaker Bayerische Motoren Werke AG is the world’s largest luxury automaker and the company has said in a statement that its profit rose 28 percent to a record

link title

TagMan

dewey

Hey Tagman,

refer to my post 182.

Anyways that big increase in profits is mainly due to a non-recurring gain. Despite that profits did move ahead for BMW's auto division. THis in itself is amazing when you consider how uncompetitive a higher Euro is for BMW.

BMW is unlike Toyota which is getting a easy break with a declining yen and its hedged production in USA (the BMW North Carolina factory only produces a small percentage of BMW autos). Just imagine how high BMW's profits would be like if most of their production is in Japan and USA? Nothing short of spectacular indeed.

tagman

refer to my post 182.

My apologies... I rushed in like a bull in a china closet. I should have known you'd have been the first to post such news!

BTW, I posted it on the HELC forum, but we got tied up over there with some junk about "the importance and even the very existence of handling on a HELC", as if ANY car could be built without some level of handling attributes, whether good or bad. Very strange...



TagMan

ljflx

Sorry guys, but BMW is in hocus pocus land right now. No smart investor is buying into what management says. Anemic growth, flat profits for 6 years running while car sales increased significantly, harping a one-time gain, huge car incentives etc are all bad omens. There's nothing in those profit figures to be proud of and the Euro on a comparative basis is inconsequential as it was strong both years and several years running now. The Japanese started making cars when the yen was 3-4X weaker then it is now. If the Euro ever went thru the strength over time that the yen has seen then there'd be no European imports to the US anymore.

dewey

If the Euro ever went thru the strength over time that the yen has seen then there'd be no European imports to the US anymore

WRONG!

Ljflx can you remember one of the main reasons for the 1987 Stock Market Crash? Hint: It had something to do with a super strong German Mark and Treasury Secretary Baker.

And amazingly despite the German Mark growing faster than the yen both BMW and MB US sales grew rapidly during the 80s. Before the Euro the German Mark was the Gold Standard among currencies and that was mainly due to its strength.

And believe it or not there still are European imports today in America. Amazingly it must have something to do with that BMW hocus pocus you were referring to :P

ljflx

How about prices are much cheaper than in the 90's, many more models are available, and the Germans moved heavily down market into non-lux territory. All of that plus the reliabilty issues have caused residuals on German cars, particularly Mercedes, to collapse from the strength they once had.

The increase in the Yen's strength in 25-30 years is far greater than the increase in Euro currencies.

The other thing to note, and no one ever wants to point this out, is the dollar is the global oil currency. European oil and Japanese oil stayed relatively cheap as those currencies did not have to carry big oil on their backs and gains in exchange rates offset some of the gains in big oil.

2001gs430

All this profit talks, did any of you make money in the last 10 days or so long or short the auto makers?
I longed TM again when it dipped.

tagman

I posted this on the HELC forum, but it applies here with the recent discussion...

I'm just not as worried about BMW as some of you suggest. While Lexus and even Audi and Mercedes will take a little bite out of BMW, BMW will bite back hard with newer models, performance enhancements, and innovative technology.

The BMW interiors haven't stopped buyers, and the X5 is an example of the direction BMW interiors can take. People like the focus on performance and handling, regardless of what some have posted recently, and BMW delivers in spades.

They are leaders in design as well. Just look how BMW shook the world with their recent designs, and nearly everyone paid attention and many followed, even Lexus.

BMW's engines are some of the best on the planet.

Dramatic styling coupled with invigorating performance makes a great formula.

I'd sure love to have their upcoming 335i twin-turbo retractible hardtop convertible.

Throw in the towel regarding BMW? No way. Not me!

TagMan

ljflx

I don't think BMW has a profitabilty issue. I think it has a "real" profit growth issue and a size issue as to whether it has the scale for the future investments that will be needed for power train tech changes. On the latter I don't think they do. On the profit growth side they are not making the right incremental margin, in fact they are making little or no incremental margin from ops despite selling a lot more units. That's all this is about. Growth in unit sales w/o growth in op profits is the problem and I guarantee you it's all tied to lease residuals being overstated. That loss has to go somewhere as the cars are certainly worth less, and in some cases much less, than the residuals built into the leases. The loss on lease residuals belongs above the op income line but it's possible a fancy smart talking CFO (I know many) can talk an auditor into that being a below the line charge - at least for a year or two until it becomes too steady a result and comes back to bite you in the you know where.

tagman

Well, the very latest round of overly-aggressive leases could fuel that scenario. I question the impact, however. What does their cash situation look like?
TagMan

ljflx

Use this link and hit BMW financial statements and then you can access P&L. cash flow, Balance Sheet etc. Basically cash dropped $500mln in 2005 and BMW financing accounted for 97% (lease or loans but and I guarantee you it's almost all leases for the US portion) of 2005 sales. Incremental gross profit per dollar of revenue is lower than overall gross profit when it should be the other way around. In other words they can't maintain the profit on the invreased sales. Stock is flat to late 90's. Not a very exciting story except for unit growth that has no corresponding profit and the obvious fact that BMW is financianing virtually every car they sell.

http://www.bmwgroup.com/bmwgroup_prod/e/nav/index.html?http://www.bmwgroup.com/b- mwgroup_prod/e/0_0_www_bmwgroup_com/investor_relations/finanzberichte/geschaefts- berichte/2005/zahlen/bericht_des_aufsichtsrats.shtml

dewey

Ljflx,

your eagerness to find something bad to say about BMW reminds me of someone with binoculars trying to prove there really is a LochNess Monster.

The fact is BMW has solid free cash flows, a healthy balance sheet and continued strong demand for its high-margin cars.

And your following arguments does not prove in anyway that BMW has problems:

1) cash dropped 500 mlln and due to all leases and you guarantee this?

What on earth is so bad about cash dropping? The best managed companies utilize their cash balances and their aim is to have zero balances. There is a opportunity cost in having big cash balances.

Cash balances mean nothing whatsoever WRT a company's performance. It is Free Cash flows (FCF) that proves a company's performance and at BMW Free Cash Flows are incredibly strong and is the main reason for its strong balance sheet. (please refer to the cash flow statements in the annual report).

2) Stock is flat to late 90's.

If BMW was an ADR like TMS and denominated in US$ then BMW's share price would increase another 58 percent all due to the increase in the Euro. So your claim that BMW has a flat price is really a 58 percent increase from a US perspective.

Oh and by the way talking about getting good lease incentives why dont we focus on the problems Toyota is having instead with their spanking new Tundras:

Toyota Dealers Offer Discount
On Newly Redesigned Tundra

WALL STREET JOURNAL

Who knows what kind of incentives Toyota will throw next year beyond what they're giving away now. Does this mean Toyota is financially doomed .:P

tagman

I reviewed the first three quarters of 2006.

I noticed a couple of things.

Firstly, the effects of RR and Land Rover deals need to be considered.

I don't have a big issue with most of the financials. The only real trouble spot, as I see it, is with the financing arm.

Essentially it could be argued that BMW is "buying" too many of its sales at a cost that is greater than the net gain produced from the "purchased" sales themselves.

And, as I understand your posts, that is your main concern.

TagMan

dewey

I find some auto supply companies with strong balance sheets quite interesting right now but no auto makers whatsoever. I am a contrarian and I only invest in stocks that are priced like cigarette stubs in a trash can. Currently all the automakers I follow are priced like diamonds at Tiffany's --even the cigarette stubs are priced like diamonnds.

I am crossing my fingers that BMW share prices drop. In that case I just may buy BMW shares as I did VW a short while ago and ended up doubling my money.

Unfortunately I did not listen to my own advice last year at the HELM forum when I had stated that DCX share were undervalued. DCX prices have shot up since then.

dewey

There is no indication whatsoever that there is anything ominous or even slightly potentially ominous about BMW's financing/leasing activities.

None whatsover!

tagman

As you read it, what is the average profit per vehicle?
TM

ljflx

Dewey,

Tag asked about cash so I put it up for him. I'm not eager to find anything negative about BMW and honestly couldn't care less. They may make good cars but as a business they are hardly exciting, not growing profits much, have a flat stock price, flat to thinning out cash and are very dependent on financing everything they sell and in leasing they are very aggressive and that introduces risk. I didn't say they are going broke. You read it that way. I said their profitability isn't a concern, their growth and future scalability of big investments required are the concern. That doesn't mean they go broke it means they find a partner or get acquired or acquire somebody to give them scalability. That is also what analysts covering the company see and say and looking at their financials it is blatantly evident why.

We've had numerous discussions over what percentages of lux cars are leased. So here's BMW figs for 2005, Revenue 46.656bln, additions to receivables from sales financing 45,365bln. That means that only 2.8% of buyers brought checks or borrowed from other sources to get their BMWs. The rest leased (probably a very high percentage) or they borrowed directly from BMW finance to buy their car. They would only do that if rates were great and if you're going to borrow to buy a car in the US then you should do it thru home equity where you at least get a tax deduction. So I'm sure that a real high percentage of the seller financing shown in the cash flow is attributable to leasing, not lending.

Anyway I've said enough about this. You take it personal and that's something I want to stay away from.

Tag - yes that is the problem. They buy back cars at the end of the lease at rates that are higher than market and they are taking losses at that point that offsets the gains made in the first year sale. It forces them to move more and more cars every year just to keep up with prior year profits. Is it dangerous to their business in and of itself. No - because they are profitable enough to easily withstand those lease losses. It's dangerous to profit growth and it's an added danger in a rising Euro enviroment as the future losses are recorded at a higher exch rate than the initial profit. It works the other way around of course if the dollar strengthens.

ljflx

"Unfortunately I did not listen to my own advice last year at the HELM forum when I had stated that DCX share were undervalued. DCX prices have shot up since then."

I remember that and I said Toyota was the better buy. Toyota moved from 80 to 133. DCX moved from 54 to 69 and much of that move recently is based on dispoasl of Chrysler. If it doesn't happen the stock will fall back at least 10%. Either way Toyota was the better buy at this stage.

Here's your charts:

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=DCX&t=2y&l=on&z=m&q=l&c=

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=TM&t=2y&l=on&z=m&q=l&c=

feather2

I have driven various cars over the years..ie Datsun, Chevy, Honda, Ford, BMW, Acura etc..Now I am at the point of being able to afford a four door luxury cruiser. I have been driving a 98 Nissan Altima to work 30miles each way..I took this car over from my girlfriend three years ago after she drove it to work 50miles each way..Regular maintanence done etc and now with 170k miles on car only thing outside of that were a new front spring at 155k and new exhaust pipe(near the engine now even rear manifold)..That is it everything on car works as it were new..ie AC, stereo etc..Still going very strong..Not one thought in my mind about whether car would not take me where i want to get in long distance..Now I looking at lexus 460 bmw 7 and audi 8..of course i prefer styling of germans etc but i would be crazy to buy one..looking at reliability issues on them and its certainly robbery on their part..lexus keeps improving on there products ie timing chain in 07(to reduce maintanance)..my girlfriend moved to an brand new rx330 when i got the altima(in 2004) and it now has 82k miles completely trouble free miles...what an opportunity for the germans to just improve a bit and look how many would jump to buy there product but for me i would not even thing about it..Oh i forgot one other item that had to be changed on the Altima with 170k miles the front headlight bulb just went.........Any thoughts???

volvomax

Anytime you go for a car packed with technology there is an increased chance something will go wrong.
The Altima is a pretty simple car, as cars go.
Typically, the Germans pack more tech into their cars than the japanese do.
So, if you are going to drive a ton and want reliability, the japanese are probably your best bet.
Having said that, the new LS has alot more technology than prior Lexus products and Toyota has had problems with their latest cars.
The Avalon and the new Camry have had issues, as did the Lexus GS when it was redone.
I think BMW and Audi have more compelling products than Lexus, they just don't have the reliability.
Also, you drive ALOT. Which will kill the resale value of whatever you get, esp the German cars.
So make sure you really like what you buy.