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Should cell phone drivers be singled out?

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  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,691
    Does the article say the man who ran the stop sign was a fireman?

    > That is how the whole anti-cell phone backlash got started when the fireman in PA killed the little girl:

    ?????

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    The article might not mention it, but he was (I think he was the volunteer FD lead). I was looking for the original article but couldn't find it. It might have been too long ago (~2000 IIRC).
  • boaz47boaz47 Member Posts: 2,747
    Having been in this forum from shortly after it started I am aware of the objections many have. To a degree I understand but I have a lot of trouble with how the laws are applied and even the reasoning behind them. It is the singling out of cell phone users as opposed to all of the other distractions that I find strange. And then there are the exceptions. It isn't a training issue, at least in California it won't be. Not only will all emergency personnel, no matter that their level of training is, but anyone that uses their cell phone for an emergency within a few minutes of being pulled over. So if you have called 911 to report an accident or any number of other perceived emergencies you are not guilty of an offense but if you dialed 411 you are? Police and other emergency personnel do not eat, drink, argue with a passenger or correct children in the back seat because that would be too distracting and dangerous for this trained professional, but that same professional can communicate while in high speed pursuit? A common drive can eat, drink, argue with a passenger, and correct children in the back seat while driving 70 on a crowded freeway yet they can't talk on a cell phone? They can talk on that same cell phone to report a truck producing too much smoke or swerving if they are talking to the police even if they are attempting to get close enough to read the license plate? It just doesn't seem logical or consistent.
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    Good point. So you are saying that with proper training and concentration a person "could' drive as effectively as the officer?

    No. Did not say that. Many things in our culture and habits would have to be addressed first.

    Officers obviously are using vehicles as part of their jobs and are more likely to be highly motivated to "concentrate" on responsibilities of driving while also being required to use radio to communicate. Would take quite a bit of motivation to have ordinary citizen drivers ramp up their concentration to be focussed only on driving duty similar to police officer. Driving and operating the motor vehicle would have to be stressed as the only task that the driver should be conducting. All other activities while driving would have to be understood to pose dangers. Nonsense about multitasking while driving would have to be unmasked.

    We need to remove the frivolities that some drivers have adopted. Educational campaigns would have to be ongoing about asking drivers to address and be mindful of the dangers of onboard distractions such as cell phone use, children, conversations with passengers, applying makeup, shaving, reading a map, drinking a beverage, eating a big mac, etc.

    Present day world of big businesses promoting use of various products in vehicles (cell phone, mp3, coffee/soda for cupholders, large wattage music speaker systems, etc.) is diametrically opposed to "improving" driving habits and reducing US death rate of 40,000 per year, not to mention injuries. Distracted driving contributes to that 40,000 number. That is over 100 deaths per day. Imagine if our media were to report a list of the 100+ people that die each day over the next four years in traffic crashes. Would our public clamor for something to be done about it similar to the recent calls for an "exit strategy" on a different topic?

    Advocating or otherwise making available cell phone use while driving contradicts the responsibilities of safe operation of a motor vehicle.
  • grbeckgrbeck Member Posts: 2,358
    Yes, he was a volunteer firefighter. The mother of Morgan Lee Pena came to our office to discuss a statewide ban on cellular phone use in the aftermath of this accident.

    The ban was pushed by her state senator from Bucks County, Pennsylvania (Philadelphia suburbs), but was never enacted into law. He retired in November 2006, and I haven't seen any legislation for the new session of the General Assembly, which began in January 2007.
  • boaz47boaz47 Member Posts: 2,747
    But what makes it more important than any other distraction? Why after all the statistics on other distractions have people decided to take cell phones as the one distraction they can attack? We have had kids and adults eating and drinking and any number of more prevalent distractions for many years and yet no ban on fast food has darkened our legislative doors. If safety is an issue it should be an issue across the board. No one has to advocate for the use of cell phones in cars, they are there and exceptions are being made period. Different people are qualified to forgo the safety issue for the sake of their job. The law itself says there are qualified reasons to use the cell phone while driving and methods of doing so. In California everyone can continue to do so simply by clipping their cell to the visor and using the speaker phone, getting an after market speaker system that send the phone call to you radio, $15.00 bucks at the "as seen on TV store." Or when you get your new phone get Bluetooth. No one has to spend a minute advocating for their use, it is permissible. In fact for most people they can use the very same cell phone they are now using only they can't use it with their hand to their ear. They only need the hands free ear piece. But the very same person can use the cell phone in their hand if the call is not private but made to any emergency agency. Explain the consistency of the position in that case. It is mostly smoke and mirrors. Besides in this state the fine is a non moving violation costing $20.00 bucks for the first offense. Four or five trips to Starbucks.
  • grbeckgrbeck Member Posts: 2,358
    xrunner2: Present day world of big businesses promoting use of various products in vehicles (cell phone, mp3, coffee/soda for cupholders, large wattage music speaker systems, etc.) is diametrically opposed to "improving" driving habits and reducing US death rate of 40,000 per year, not to mention injuries.

    The "death rate" is expressed in fatalities per 100 million miles driven, and that figure was dropping until 2005, and the reason it didn't drop further last year was because of increased fatalities among motorcyclists. Even then, it is still near the record low figure. I seriously doubt that those motorcylcists were chatting on the cell phone at the time of their accidents. Fatalities among passengers in vehicles DROPPED in 2005.

    xrunner2: That is over 100 deaths per day. Imagine if our media were to report a list of the 100+ people that die each day over the next four years in traffic crashes. Would our public clamor for something to be done about it similar to the recent calls for an "exit strategy" on a different topic?

    The media already do this on a local basis in the local paper. At least, our local paper does this. Do you not subscribe to yours? If so, are you not reading accident reports?

    I read the accident reports in our local paper faithfully. And the last three fatal accidents were as follows:

    1. A driver pulled out from a hotel on to a main thoroughfare in his Dodge Neon and collided with a Jeep Grand Cherokee. The Neon driver was killed. No mention of cell phone use, or that the Neon driver was "distracted."

    2. On I-81, the driver of a Ford Explorer fell asleep at the wheel, crossed the median strip and collided head-on with a tractor trailer. The Explorer driver was killed. Obviously, cell phone use wasn't a problem, as the Explorer driver fell asleep at the wheel, and I doubt that he would have done that while talking on the cell phone, unless he had narcolepsy. In which case, he shouldn't have been driving at all.

    3. A Ford Explorer driver was traveling on a two-lane road, ran off the road and hit a tree. No mention of cell phone use, although the driver was apparently traveling at a high rate of speed when he lost control and hit the tree.

    Based on these reports, which are typical of the ones I read regularly, I don't know what the public is supposed to "clamor for," although it wouldn't be a restriction on cell phone use while driving. Perhaps better driving overall...?
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    I almost hit a guy on a bicycle last spring who suddenly swerved in front of me because he was riding in medium to heavy traffic on a main road while talking on a cell phone. His "multi-tasking" included trying to steer his bike through a busy intersection with one hand in the center of his handlebars. he hit a minor defect in the road and suddenly his focus is on keeping the bike upright. His focus NEVER was on the traffic.
  • boaz47boaz47 Member Posts: 2,747
    I wouldn't laugh. Last Summer I was driving back from LA on the 91 freeway right were it meets the 55 or Newport Freeway. There was a car with two very attractive women that had pulled to the side right at the freeway split. One had on a light summer dress and was leaning against the car looking inside for some reason. The breeze caused her dress to balloon up and reveled the very attractive pair of french cut T-backs she happened to be wearing. Within twenty minutes there was a report of two accidents at that very spot, one on the 91 and one on the 55. I don't remember a call to ban summer dresses or T-backs however.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    I saw one today that I hadn't seen before: the driver was brushing his teeth, on the freeway, doing 65. That's right, cup of water in the cupholder, driving with his elbows when he needed to spread the toothpaste on the brush, intense scrutiny of the rear-view mirror while he brushed, the whole nine yards.

    Maybe someday they will make a law against that too, huh? :-P

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,500
    Nope, phones are all that will receive scrutiny

    A couple years ago I saw a driving while using an electric razor.
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    A couple years ago I saw a driving while using an electric razor.

    Would not defend that, but, cannot imagine it takes away much if any concentration from the road - unless one looks in the mirror. But, don't have to do that - can merely feel skin to determine if stubble is gone. Sure is a lot different than diverting brain processing away from the road and toward a cell conversation, which is serial tasking.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,500
    Judging by the way this guy was driving...it took his concentration. Random 20mph variances in speed, although he did stay in his lane.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,691
    Picture 3 inches of dry, fluffy snow. Picture 3 lanes of I75. Picture people driving 20 mph in the left hand 3rd lane rather than the right lane just because they don't want to go faster. Maybe they don't have good tires on their car. Maybe they wanted touring tires without some texture to the tread for grip.

    Not my problem unless you're in the 3rd lane at 15 mph. AND some of these people driving are on the cell phones. The ones wandering and straddling two lanes are on the phone. Snow coming down. Snow forming ridges that tug your car if you cross them between lanes. These people are wandering narrowing 3 lanes to 2.

    Cell phones don't bother anything? Bah, humbug.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I think NY is trying to snatch the leadership of innovative and useless law making from CA. I have been bumped into by someone bee bopping down the sidewalk listening to their favorite tunes. I still would ban all cell phone use while driving. Not sure about walking down the street.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Now THAT'S a fascinating piece of legislation. Definitely takes this week's Big Brother award.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Maybe it will give the cops on the street a chance to generate some revenue. I look at it like seatbelt laws. You walk into the street in your own little iPod world and get hit. Too bad you had it coming.
  • boaz47boaz47 Member Posts: 2,747
    does this mean they are banning hands free Ipod walking in Xwalks? LOL.. It brings a tear to your eyes. Maybe we need mandated air bags for our cloths. If a car hits you, or you bump into anyone, your pants puff up like a marshmallow. And if they are after Ipods skateboarders are doomed.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    If you use them in the crosswalk, your favorite electronic devices could be in the crosshairs.

    Legislation will be introduced in Albany on Wednesday to lay a $100 fine on pedestrians succumbing to what State Sen. Carl Kruger calls iPod oblivion.

    "We're talking about people walking sort of tuned in and in the process of being tuned in, tuned out," Kruger said. "Tuned out to the world around them. They're walking into speeding cars. They're walking into buses. They're walking into one another and it's creating a number of fatalities that have been documented right here in the city."


    http://wcbstv.com/topstories/local_story_037234835.html

    I can just see someone so into eating a Krispy Kreme that he walks in front of an Amtrak train. What a mess that would be. How will we word the law?
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    I am DYING of laughter here picturing the marshmallow pants! Hilarious!

    God, if this legislation doesn't take the cake,I just don't know what does. Of course, one doesn't have to carry one's license to walk down the sidewalk, so when the cop comes up to give the perp the $100 ticket, how many times out of ten do you think he/she is going to get the true name and address of the criminal??? Surely they wouldn't actually arrest and detain someone not carrying their ID for this type of petty crime??!! :-P

    STILL laughing my head off over here. The cell phone law in CA is a total joke, so is the iPod law in NY.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • boaz47boaz47 Member Posts: 2,747
    There is some irony here as well. Last December I was looking to upgrade my old, perfectly good, cell phone for a smart phone. I got a card saying I was due for a free upgrade and I wanted to look into a Bluetooth phone. First not one of the Bluetooth phones were free in reality. Second the phone companies were trying to convince me the new law went into effect in 2007. I will chalk the 2007 mis-information up to salesmanship but the pricing of the Bluetooth phones in December seemed a bit like gouging to me. I went on line in January and got a Smart phone with more options than I will ever use but it seems much better priced than in December. Now I can call hands free inside or outside of my car as well as inside. But I now have to question if I were in New York would it be against the law to listen to MP3s on my smart phone while walking in a Xwalk? Will the fun never end?
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    Based on these reports, which are typical of the ones I read regularly, I don't know what the public is supposed to "clamor for," although it wouldn't be a restriction on cell phone use while driving. Perhaps better driving overall...?

    Yes better driving overall along with a TOTAL BAN on cell phone use.

    In article by Dutch Mandel in Feb 12 issue of Autoweek, he says: "Only a fool would use a mobile phone while driving". He cites research data from Vanderbilt University that states that a normal, healthy brain struggles when charged with multitasking; one function shuts down to achieve another. He quotes Rene Marois and Paul Dux of the University. They said that dual-tasking (using a cell phone and driving) can cost up to a full second in cognitive recognition. At 60 mph in a car, that is 88 feet. They said that hands-free phone makes no difference.

    Have the pro-cell phone users done research as these persons have done at Vanderbilt? Are there any pro users that even have pertinent research credentials?
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    I still would ban all cell phone use while driving. Not sure about walking down the street.

    Crystal ball -

    Everyone remembers hot coffee lawsuit against McDonalds. Some day there will be incident in big box store where some bozo in loaded/heavy shopping cart and talking on cell phone runs their cart into another person and results in serious foot/calve/ankle/spine injury. There will be witnesses, big lawsuit against big box and lots of publicity. Injured person will win suit and this will force change in customers' habits and redefinitions of stores' responsibilities and legal postings at entrances.
  • boaz47boaz47 Member Posts: 2,747
    and Bluetooth plus other new advancements in cell phones made this almost a non issue? Some cars come with a cell built right in. You only have to put the phone to your ear if you absolutely want to. If dialing is the problem how much of a problem is the plug in Ipods that we see everyday being advertised by Subaru, and Mercury/Ford? Coming home from Palm Springs the other evening I must have passed 10 or 15 SUVs and Mini vans with DVD players going and not just with kids movies. I am sure you can make the passengers use head phones but I wonder how many people do?

    When it comes to distracted drivers most people are only upset when someone else is distracted. Sometimes I am sure they are so made they shake their bottled water at the offenders. How much attention can a seat dancer be paying? would they cite them for DWD?
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    ROTFLMAO! "...cite them for DWD?"

    boaz, you are on top of your game! Hilarious! :-)

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Distractions come in all shapes and sizes. I sat next to a guy yesterday in a double left turn lane. He was writhing in rhythm to the music in his truck. Eyes closed head bobbing and weaving. When the arrow turned green I was gone and he was still sitting there. I heard a horn honk him back to reality. That is a long light to wait through. I wonder how many did not get through because he was DWD.
  • grbeckgrbeck Member Posts: 2,358
    xrunner2: Yes better driving overall along with a TOTAL BAN on cell phone use.

    When you have evidence to support this ban, let us all know.

    I did what you originally suggested - looked at regular accident reports to get an idea of what should be an area of concern - and didn't quite get the answer you wanted.

    Incidentally, today's paper featured two fatal accidents - an 82-year-old woman turned her vehicle in front of another car on a busy commercial thoroughfare, and was killed. A tractor trailer driver turned his vehicle on its side while exiting I-581, hit the concrete barrier, and was killed. No mention of cell phone use in either accident...

    It may pay to actually READ the local paper to get an idea of what accidents are occurring, before making this suggestion, to avoid future embarrassment.

    xrunner2: Have the pro-cell phone users done research as these persons have done at Vanderbilt?

    And have those researchers at Vanderbilt proven that increased cell phone use has led to increased accidents?

    Um, no. Next question...

    xrunner2: Are there any pro users that even have pertinent research credentials?

    Given the fact that those with pertinent research credentials have not proven that fatalities per 100 million miles driven have resulted from increased cell phone use, that obviously isn't a pertinent question.

    I'd suggest on focusing less on research credentials, as this tends to be a fault among those who can't prove their case by regular means.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Incidentally, today's paper featured two fatal accidents - an 82-year-old woman turned her vehicle in front of another car on a busy commercial thoroughfare, and was killed. A tractor trailer driver turned his vehicle on its side while exiting I-581, hit the concrete barrier, and was killed. No mention of cell phone use in either accident...

    Since cell phone use is not collected in accident reports, there is no reason it would be mentioned. I would wonder what would cause a trained experienced truck driver to hit a concrete barrier for no reason.....
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    When you have evidence to support this ban, let us all know.

    Read the Autoweek article on page 11 of Feb 12 issue.

    Quote by Dutch Mandel, Editor and Associate Publisher of Autoweek: "So, yes, only a fool would knowingly distract himself while driving. Cell phone use while driving is distracting."

    Seems like the pro-cell phone while driving persons should try to prove that they can "Multi-task" (driving and talk on cell phone) without losing any reaction time. They have not provided any study or research to show that multi-tasking has a zero or null effect on a driver's action/reaction time. Let's see if they can cite researchers, scientists, doctors, etc that have studied and done tests on the matter and have conclusively stated that drivers using cell phones have zero impairment to their action/reaction times.
  • wale_bate1wale_bate1 Member Posts: 1,982
    observation: there is no such thing as multi-tasking.

    What happens is task-switching, and your brain requires time to switch between tasks. It's a basic cognitive limitation: your brain has to identify the new task, ascertain its goal and define the process before you assume the task itself.

    Needless to say, your ability to process is hampered each time you switch.

    Human multi-tasking is a myth, probably invented at Harvard's Business School for purposes of amending the "One-Minute Manager"! ;)
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    I am sure you're correct. Only the Vulcans can multi-task. :D
    -Loren
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Multiple measures in Arizona seek to curb distracted driving


    Sorry if this has been posted already...secondary enforcement for distracted driving...hmm I dunno who suggested that :P
  • grbeckgrbeck Member Posts: 2,358
    lilengineerboy: Since cell phone use is not collected in accident reports, there is no reason it would be mentioned. I would wonder what would cause a trained experienced truck driver to hit a concrete barrier for no reason.....

    The Pennsylvania State Police have been instructed to note on the accident report if cell phone use while driving was responsible for the accident. They have been instructed to do this for several years.

    The accident happened on an interstate highway, so the Pennsylvania State Police would have responded to the call.

    There was no note of cell phone use...so it's safe to say that this wasn't the cause.

    So, you are incorrect.
  • grbeckgrbeck Member Posts: 2,358
    xrunner2: Quote by Dutch Mandel, Editor and Associate Publisher of Autoweek: "So, yes, only a fool would knowingly distract himself while driving. Cell phone use while driving is distracting."

    That's not proof, that is a writer's opinion, and it isn't even addressing the proper question.

    xrunner2: Seems like the pro-cell phone while driving persons should try to prove that they can "Multi-task" (driving and talk on cell phone) without losing any reaction time. They have not provided any study or research to show that multi-tasking has a zero or null effect on a driver's action/reaction time. Let's see if they can cite researchers, scientists, doctors, etc that have studied and done tests on the matter and have conclusively stated that drivers using cell phones have zero impairment to their action/reaction times.

    Again, you're not asking the right question. You need proof that cell phone use has lead to increased accidents and fatalities. So far, no proof of this has been forthcoming.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    The Pennsylvania State Police have been instructed to note on the accident report if cell phone use while driving was responsible for the accident. They have been instructed to do this for several years.

    How do they know?
  • ponderpointponderpoint Member Posts: 277
    On a typical flight, one pilot flies, the other pilot talks to air traffic control and conducts various duties. The "flying pilot" is just that, the experts just want him to fly, nothing else. This is even when they've settled into high altitude cruise for a long transcontinental flight.

    As they approach their destination, say LAX or JFK, they go into "sterile cockpit mode" and all non-flying tasks are prohibited. No eating a sandwich, no idle conversation with the cute flight attendant over the intercom system, no idle conversation with the other pilots even.

    The "flying pilot" is not to talk to air traffic control, this being the task of the "non-flying pilot"

    Through years of research and aircraft incidents (that still are WAY below the death rate on our highways by the way) the NTSB and NASA-Ames found they could save lives by cutting out distractions, even small ones and telling these highly trained professionals this data. They complied. Their job is safety.

    And you're trying to tell me you can drive down the expressway, talking on the cell phone with no added risk - on a highway system that is littered with thousands dead? You're an IDIOT!

    I am very confident that in the near future cell-phone use while driving WILL be banned. This INCLUDES hands-free. New York did the right thing.

    I think the Department of Transportation should launch an immediate program for fact-finding, and all accidents with emergency/non-emergency response, the police will HAVE to inquire about cell-phone use in conjunction with the incident with a driver surrendering the cell-phone if they refuse to comply. After the cell is checked for recent calls, it is returned to them.

    If you just happen to know an airline pilot, casually ask him at what time they feel most at risk when they have to go to work.

    You already know the answer.
  • ponderpointponderpoint Member Posts: 277
    "How do they know?" from lilengineerboy....

    It's actually quite simple. All cell phone calls have a permanent date/time stamp. The call for an incident is always recorded also... 911/mutual aid..... It would be very simple to see if the cell phone was being used during the accident - especially if motorists have to surrender it...
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    It's actually quite simple. All cell phone calls have a permanent date/time stamp. The call for an incident is always recorded also... 911/mutual aid..... It would be very simple to see if the cell phone was being used during the accident - especially if motorists have to surrender it...

    The time stamp on the phone is from the phone network, and is different then the time stamp from the officer's watch, which is different from the clock in my bathroom. All three are about as relevant.
    It would be very hard to tell if the call was made before the accident or immediately afterwards, especially if it was to someone like a family member as opposed to a 911 call.

    My phone doesn't log call times. This means someone would have to subpena my phone records. This is unlikely to happen for most accidents and again, there is not a synchronized clock here.

    While all this interrogation and investigation is great, what really happens is:
    Cop- " were you on the phone at the time of the crash?"
    Distracted driver - "uh, no"
    No check box.
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    Let's not let things turn personal please.

    Easy to get emotions high on a lot of these subjects, but try to avoid making comments abou each other as much as possible. Thanks!
  • wale_bate1wale_bate1 Member Posts: 1,982
    name calling.

    Simple fact remains that "distraction" as we know it is anything that diverts your attention from your primary function. The other simple fact is that your brain doesn't process multiple tasks, but rather switches back and forth between tasks, and the processing is in fact interrupted during the switch.

    Whether or not there is necessary data captured yet to confirm a trend seems more or less immaterial to me. Hands-free laws are popping up like weeds, and will likely go federal at some point, because it presents a business opportunity, which an outright ban does not.

    But the distraction part needs no statistical comfirmation. It just is.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Hands-free laws are popping up like weeds, and will likely go federal at some point, because it presents a business opportunity, which an outright ban does not.

    There is definitely a body of literature that says the cognitive resources required for a hands free call are no less than those required for a hand held call.
    In graduate school, I remember looking the different cognitive modeling tools and realizing soon or later, they all had a serial process in the system.
  • ponderpointponderpoint Member Posts: 277
    "But the distraction part needs no statistical confirmation. It just is."

    Yep.... We just always have to go through this routine. It was drunk driving, now it's cell phones. I think people deep down know they're putting other people at risk but choose to ignore common sense for personal convenience and then the cars bash into each other and the lawbooks become more bloated because somebody can't do the right thing, behave appropriately.

    The unsung heroes are the drivers that decipher the "statistical" and are quite aware of the task at hand and act appropriately. So many drivers that see the situation developing, see the other driver weaving, intoxicated, or, on the cell phone in a heated argument, weaving.. Don't say you haven't seen it.

    The unsung heroes are starting to be outnumbered.
  • wale_bate1wale_bate1 Member Posts: 1,982
    "There is definitely a body of literature that says the cognitive resources required for a hands free call are no less than those required for a hand held call..."

    Big "aha" there is that we're talking about after the call is placed. I won't dispute the fact that the conversation is a distraction (especially as it's one with an unseen participant, but that's a whole 'nother can of fat, slimy multiple-process worms), yet that's nothing compared to the actual manual dialing of the call!

    At some point, the mfrs will either be legislated into "blue toothing" cars themselves, a la the VSC law, or people will nationally legislate themselves into hands-free only.

    I don't however see vehicle operator tele-communication going away. It's somehow become our "right".
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    In the two studies I was involved with, voice activated dialing vs dialing on a integrated keypad in the vehicle showed similar performance. Dialing using some tiny keypad on a phone made for a junior high girl might be part of the problem, but "hands free" laws don't talk about dialing either, there isn't a standard definition.
    Even if using a blue tooth connection integrated with the vehicle, there is still key pressing involved in navigating the phone book to select the number to dial.
    "Hands free" needs to be better defined.
  • wale_bate1wale_bate1 Member Posts: 1,982
    "'Hands free' needs to be better defined..."

    True enough.

    After having toyed with voice recognition in a BMW 3-series, I would say that kind of system is the way to go. You can tell it to dial a known number by name, or just say the number. I'd certainly like to see that as a minimum standard for car-based telephony.

    Perhaps it will be the next ABS phenomenon, and catch on as standard equipment over a huge range of vehicle choices as a market response. One can hope...
  • grbeckgrbeck Member Posts: 2,358
    lilengineerboy: How do they know?

    In addition to the other points raised, if someone is killed in an accident while using a cell phone, I doubt that he or she had time to turn off the cell phone and hide it before the collision.

    The police are going to examine the cab of the vehicle closely, especially if it is a fatal accident involving a tractor trailer on an interstate highway.
  • wale_bate1wale_bate1 Member Posts: 1,982
    BTW, glad to see you made it through the weather, G!

    Hope you didn't get stuck on a highway or anything. :(
  • grbeckgrbeck Member Posts: 2,358
    ponderpoint: And you're trying to tell me you can drive down the expressway, talking on the cell phone with no added risk - on a highway system that is littered with thousands dead? You're an IDIOT!

    The highways are littered with thousands of dead people? Wow - I missed that on my commute to work this morning.

    Sorry, but hyperbole is no substitute for facts, or knowledge of the subject matter at hand.

    A few facts - one, the number of fatalities per 100 million vehicle miles travelled has been declining. Two, it has been declining even as cell phone use has exploded.

    There are fewer corpses along the highway since cell phones became popular. Which undercuts your whole argument.

    You might find research more productive - along with knowledge of the subject matter at hand - instead of name-calling.

    ponderpoint: I think the Department of Transportation should launch an immediate program for fact-finding, and all accidents with emergency/non-emergency response, the police will HAVE to inquire about cell-phone use in conjunction with the incident with a driver surrendering the cell-phone if they refuse to comply. After the cell is checked for recent calls, it is returned to them.

    If the driver is dead or seriously injured, cell phone use can be deducted from either the records (which can be subpeoned if necessary), or from the position of the cell phone, as I seriously doubt that the driver had the time to hide it or turn it off before the crash.

    If the driver is not dead, then he or she can hide the cell phone, rendering the entire line of questioning pointless. If the other driver suspects cell phone use caused the accident, he or she can, once again, subpeona the cell phone company records of the offender for the inevitable civil trial.

    So I'm not quite seeing why we need a big bureaucracy to gather this information.

    ponderpoint: If you just happen to know an airline pilot, casually ask him at what time they feel most at risk when they have to go to work.

    You already know the answer.


    I know an pilot for one of the big national carriers. He has no problem driving, or flying.

    So your point is....?
  • grbeckgrbeck Member Posts: 2,358
    Thanks...we had the good sense to stay home.

    It wasn't fun...our street is a steep hill (well, steep for Pennsylvania - it wouldn't bother a Bay Area resident!). The borough only plowed enough to allow a good coating of ice to develop.

    I couldn't get the car out of the parking space for two days.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    In addition to the other points raised, if someone is killed in an accident while using a cell phone, I doubt that he or she had time to turn off the cell phone and hide it before the collision.

    True, being dead makes it much more difficult to cover up actions, however, since few fatalities are single vehicle crashes, there is, perhaps, a possibility that the fatality was in the other vehicle that was clobbered by the proccupied cell phone user.
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