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In reality most, if not all, cell phones allow you to delete individual numbers on the list or the whole list at once. It takes less than 5 seconds to erase the record of a particular call on a cell phone. The only way to truely know if a call was made would be to subpoena the phone records. Then as someone already stated the exact time of the accident per the cell providers time keeping would be suspect.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
With voice recognition software you don't even have to navigate the phone book. Just press a button (not ant more distracting than changing the radio station and in a blue tooth enabled car you don't even have to remove your hands from the steering wheel) and speak, thats all there is to it.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
An accident forceful enough to kill the driver will more than less likely damage the phone enough to disconnect the call. The the question is was the phone in use at the time of the accident or was it off for a few moments prior to the accident?
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
Personally I don't think its any more of a hazard than anything else we are allowed to do. I have had close calls with people that apparently had no distractions at all as well as seen people talking away on their cell phone operate their cars very well like there was no distraction. Fact is a good driver is a good driver and a bad driver is a bad driver, cell phone or not.
Back when they started putting radios in cars they were having this same discussion about radios.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Thats a very good point. Drivers should be held to the same standard. From now on cars must have a "sterile cockpit mode" where there is no radio on, no conversation in the car can be made unless it has to do with the operation of the car, the driver cannot do anything but drive if the heater has to be turned down the driver must pull over and shut down the car before s/he can do it or have a passenger do it. Not to mention having nothing in the car that is in sight of the driver, that will cause a distraction. Oops must turn of that nav system too, if you need something like that get a passenger with a map as nav systems will distract the driver too.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Heavens! Thank goodness! If he did I don't think I'd want him flying a plane I was on!
I asked when he felt more at "RISK" when going to work.... You did see the word risk there didn't you? Pretty important to the whole context and all.
Go ahead.... Ring him up and ask him........
And if the accident was that serious, I doubt that the other driver had the opportunity to turn off the cell phone and hide it.
And, if the dead driver's survivors want to sue, and suspect that the other driver's cell phone use played a part in causing the accident, they can obtain the cell phone company's records during the discovery process.
By the way, you did see my ENTIRE POST that refuted your hyperbole about "thousands of dead people" littering the highways, didn't you? (Perhaps you are the Haley Joel Osment of Edmunds.com, and thus see dead people all day? If so, please tell us so that we can better understand just what you mean in your posts.)
You know, the one where you called me an "idiot," which I guess was supposed to serve as a substitute for understanding the subject matter at hand?
You left out eating a burger, doing your make-up, reading the highlights of the Quigly Contract before the big meeting, having a "road pop" (this is best done with an old McDonalds soda cup - then the cop "thinks" it's soda), breaking up the fight the little nose-miners/fart blasters in the back seat just got into ALL while avoiding the driver in the lane over that drifted into your lane because he's in a raging argument (on the cell phone....) with his boss about giving the Quigly Contract over to some minion that can't handle it.....
Did I leave out putting on lipstick while hitting a bump... Dang! Darn.... I forgot the dropped cigarette too.
Your sarcasm has been noted.
And, if the dead driver's survivors want to sue, and suspect that the other driver's cell phone use played a part in causing the accident, they can obtain the cell phone company's records during the discovery process.
Grbeck, the issue was if this was captured on the crash report or not. If it is subpoenaed later, its not going to be in the crash report, its not going to be in the statistics, and it isn't going to help the current argument.
Also, even in serious collisions, as a matter of course there is no investigation into the cell phone beyond "were you on the phone?" unless there is a witness that confirms it.
We have viewed studies that go back five years and have been updated even by the NHTSA that have listed these distractions in order and still cell phones have been the consistent target.
Living in California my only experience is with the California law. The law will not take effect till 2008 and by the time it does most people will most likely be hands free so it won't effect them. The fine is a non moving violation and it cost something like 20 bucks if you get a ticket. Looking at this fact alone how can we believe that the whole thing isn't simply political grand standing?
The point is if cell phones are in the top five distractions and they have been delt with to a degree wouldn't it seem logical that if anyone in the whole state was the least bit concerned with distracted drivers they would be pushing for bans on some of the other top five distractions? Because there isn't any such move should we assume the distraction problem is not the issue? Maybe we can assume they are more worried about the divorce rate going up if they ban passenger distraction?
Yes.... I noticed. Your powers of debate are INCREDIBLE! I must now take leave of this fantastic forum, the "idiot" that I am.... How could I EVER show my face again?
Oh and "G", you might want to check your post. I think you meant "deduced" when you used deducted.... Whatever....
I really meant I have to leave... I gotta get stuff done!
Drive Safe Everybody!
Is it because cell phones are more viable? Is it because there are more of them? What makes this distraction the straw that breaks the camels back?
I think you make a great point about everything we do involving risk. Walking down stairs holds a risk that a person will fall, hit their head, and die. For most healthy able bodied people, this is a relatively low risk, although adding in ice to the steps increases the risk of a fall or injury considerably. Most people don't think about walking up and down a normal set of stairs, but people will avoid the icy stairs. This gets at what is an acceptable risk.
Radio tuning using a push button preset on an OEM stereo takes between 500msec and a second. There is very little eyes off road time/mind off road time involved. Society has decided this is an acceptable risk.
Driving while intoxicated, societally, is deemed unsafe, or an unacceptable risk. It is also easily managed (cab, designated driver, public transportation, etc).
Acceptance of risk is based on a few things, how severe or catastrophic the outcome, how easy the risk is to mitigate, what work-arounds are available, etc. Some risks, acceptable or not, are unavoidable (young kids with issues in the car, etc) and some are (young drivers sending text messaging while driving). Its a matter of minimizing the overall risk by picking ones that can be controlled or minimized.
I'll give you a simple "internet bounce",
www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/pdf/nrd-30/ncsa/ppt/2006/810639.pdf
Page seven is particularly interesting.
Please know your facts to alleviate others of bad information.
Still looking for data on 2006.... If you have it please share it.
The data that you have provided is meaningless as a measure of traffic safety. Raw numbers do not account for the increasing number of miles driven. Therefore traffic safety experts do not considerate it to be an accurate measure of the state of highway safety, even though it is bandied about by the press (primarily because it easily understood by the public).
The chart you want to look at is found on page 10.
It measures the fatality rate per 100 million vehicle miles traveled per year.
That figure was DECLINING until 2005, when it increased slightly. And the main reason for the increase was because of increased fatalities among motorcyclists.
Which proves me correct that highway deaths have been going down in recent years.
The data for 2006 probably hasn't been released yet. If I recall correctly, it will be released in the April-May timeframe.
You may want to take your own advice and "please know your facts to alleviate others of bad information." (Although I don't know how we are supposed to "alleviate" others of bad information. According to the dictionary, "alleviate" means to make bearable.)
Or at least learn which statistics are used to accurately measure the state of highway safety.
After all, it must be embarrassing to be (repeatedly) proven incorrect by the "idiot" of Edmunds.com.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Way too many of us take this driving thing with a huge dose of complacency; evident IMO by the fact that most traffic accidents happen on our routes that are most familiar to us, or within a few miles of home rather.
Going back to the most basic of factual info, distractions are what they are, and do cause inattention to the primary function of driving the car. Some are easier to control than others, but at the very least we can find some way to limit the amount of distraction caused by operation of the phone, even if we now feel our personal freedoms would be under attack by a ban on in-vehicle cell-phone use.
I for one don't favor an outright ban, but I do strongly agree with any efforts to go hands free only across 50 states, and personally, I'd like to see it modified to VOX only within two years. I think it's possible. When cell phones first became widely available, there were plenty of people who couldn't afford them. That changed remarkably quickly. I'm sure a law requiring voice-operated hands-only will cause the same situation and be remedied by mfrs just as quickly.
Once again, there simply is no such thing as multi-tasking, so when someone tells me they have no problem driving and phoning, I know it's only because they haven't recognized it yet, or they're wet in Egypt (in de Nile).
BTW, boaz raises a good point on other distractions. I have had three cars with stereo controls on the steering wheel, and my current one does not. Even though I don't listen to the thing all that often, I still think those controls ought to be on the wheel. Wouldn't make me the least uncomfortable to face legislation to put them there...
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
My point is that its not nearly as complicated as flying a 767/ So the comparison is meaningless.
evident IMO by the fact that most traffic accidents happen on our routes that are most familiar to us, or within a few miles of home rather.
Since most of our driving is along familiar routes and relatively close to home it should come as no surprise that most accidents happen there.
Once again, there simply is no such thing as multi-tasking,
Not sure about you but I can walk and chew gum at the same time.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Sheesh, talk about meaningless comparisons... :sick:
Simple cognitive fact is that you're not actually doing them at the same time. You're switching back and forth, back and forth, back and forth ceaselessly. The tasks are merely so simple and the switch so quick you don't notice in the least...
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Just a surface scratching from a study mentioned by the APA:
Whether people toggle between browsing the Web and using other computer programs, talk on cell phones while driving, pilot jumbo jets or monitor air traffic, they're using their "executive control" processes -- the mental CEO -- found to be associated with the brain's prefrontal cortex and other key neural regions such as the parietal cortex. These interrelated cognitive processes establish priorities among tasks and allocate the mind's resources to them. "For each aspect of human performance -- perceiving, thinking and acting -- people have specific mental resources whose effective use requires supervision through executive mental control," says Meyer.
Your brain has to identify the task, ascertain its parameters, and process its functional requirements in order to perform the task. The more tasks at hand, the more switching goes on.
First off isn't concentrating what we are talking about?
Secondly is it possible to m,anipulate multiple things.
Finally I question anything the APA comes out with.
The brain is capable of doing multiple tasks at once.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
No, we're talking about active processes and not mere observation. You can track multiple bogeys, but you can only act on one at a time.
You can process the requirements of driving, and you can process the requirements of a conversation with a unseen partner (which taxes resources to a greater extent than face to face), but you're not actually doing them at the same time, but rather switching back and forth as the situation demands.
Some people are better at switching quickly than others, true enough. My experience has been that those who think they're most proficient in that regard usually aren't... :surprise:
Yiou can act on more than one at once, people do it all the time. As I said some can walk and chew gum at the same time.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
There are a few limitations that come to mind. Working memeory is very limited (for example's sake, its 6+/- 2 items (try remembering more than 1 phone number without rehersal)), and as such has limited capacity for more that one thing going on at a time.
There are other limitations having to do with information recognition and processing. Character/patern recognition takes measurable resources (while often visual, these can also be auditory, like the way you recognize the blinker sound when your turn signal is on). Having multiple inputs across modalities loads up the processor (try following more than one conversation at a time at a party).
Very simple manual tasks, like walking and chewing gum, patting your head and rubbing your tummy, etc, have very little opportunity cost in switching. This makes it feel pretty seemless to go back and forth.
I have and most are either NOT on the phone or NOT drunk. There may be many other reasons for not driving properly. Could be the person is apply makeup, yelling at their kids, looking for the next CD to put on, looking at their NAV system, dropped a ash from the cigarette, had a bee sting them (That happened to me once), reading directions. I could go on and on. Face it people have been doing those things long before cell phones and cell phones had nothing to do with it then.
I will admit that just not to long ago I was one of those people sitting at a fresh green light (actually a left turn light). I wasn't on the phone, what caused me to do that was that the left turn light turned red just as I approached it. I expected the whole intersection to cycle through before getting a red light so I took my attention away from the light to put something away in the glove compartment. But instead of cycling through giving the cross traffic a green first it turned the light from oncoming traffic red just as I approached and gave me the green much faster than I expected.
Write whatever you want but you've seen it with your own eyes, over and over again.
Yeah but I am honest about it, I have seen people doing what you said ever since I started driving back in the 70's. Are you going to tell me all those people were on cell phones? I have seen people doing those things when they were not on cell phones. And I have seen people operate their cars perfectly while on cell phones.
Bad drivers are bad drivers be they chatting on the phone or not. Good drivers are good drivers be they chatting on a cell phone or not. This is not an issue of cell phones but of poor driving habits.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
This is where I disagree. Bad drivers are worse drivers chatting on the phone. Good drivers become bad drivers chatting on the phone.
One can try and dismiss the poor driving behaviors of drivers using cell phones by making all inattentive actions seem like they have the same degree of severity or non-severity. But 99% of the studies show this is not the case. I agree there are some really stupid actions that trump cell phone usage, but it's amazing how many people drive with the cell phones to their ears and their driving behaviors indicate inattention to the driving task at hand.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
My weekly poker game. There's PLENTY of casual conversation going on while the game is in progress. I LIVE for the moment when someone's phone rings at the table while they're involved in a hand. Their ability to watch out for potential problems (like the raise I can't make fast enough) is severly limited. They're still looking at the table, following the action, but they don't "see" it or react to it in the same way as they do normally. They can't. They're trying to square away some business for tomorrow. That's where their focus goes, but they foolishly try to keep playing at the same time. Hey... they can multitask, right? I see this same effect on myself when playing online. If I answer the phone, I can't be involved in a hand.
Think instant messsage... a non-life endangering activity. How many times are you on IM with someone and you see:
brb...phone
Gee... that's because the phone call is important and it would be rude to not pay attention to the person you're on the phone with.
Now to get this back behind the wheel... we broke down about a year ago and got a phone for the wife to have in the car driving back and forth to work. Pretty much just for emergency purposes/peace of mind. I actually tried to make a call a couple of times behind the wheel, just to see if there was any merit to arguements being made one way or the other. Now I'm a multitasker of the nth degree. I NEVER have just one thing going on. Radio on, CD playing, talking with my passenger, looking at something shiny that caught my attention along side the road :P None of that ever drew my focus away from driving as much as those couple of phone calls did. And I'm talking about the talking. Turning on the phone, choosing a number off the list of numbers or dialing the number were things I was worried about taking my attention away from the road, but I found them to be not much worse than fumbling to get a CD or change a radiostation. The conversation! That sucked my concentration right out of the car and what was happening to it as I tried to pay attention to the person I had called.
I've never even turned on the phone in the car since. I have no doubt that people can OPERATE the phone while driving. It's the conversation and the way it commands your attention that I see as the problem. It's NOT a casual conversation. The call is "important" enough that you had to call someone or someone had to call you and that becomes your focus. And judging by the behavior I see, behind the wheel, walking down a crowded sidewalk, or sitting in a restaurant disturbing every table within earshot is that most people act as if they must feel that way about it.
Hands-free MAY be a solution, but I'm not sure that it is or not.
As far as Motorcycles, I rode one everyday, rain or shine, for more than 8 years commuting on the freeways between Riverside and LA. I have been pushed out of my lane by an over eager MB driver that was looking right at me, without a cell phone. I have had car doors opened to try and knock me down. lane splitting is allowed in my state. I have had beer can, coke cans and cigarette butts bounced off of my head, or helmet if you like. I have had two cars hit me, neither had a cell phone and I was lucky on both accounts. Only one person close to me was hit and eventually died. He was hit when a young girl eating a big mack ran a red light and T-boned him in an intersection 3 miles from his house. If cell phones can be blamed for these types of accidents then the people that hit me and my friend must have hit us on purpose, because there were no cell phones involved. Personal experience isn't often an example of evidence.
yes there are some distractions that are unavoidable. Eating while driving isn't one of them. Drinking from a Big gulp isn't one of them. Putting on makeup isn't one of them. Have you seen the dashboard mounted note pads people have today, not and unavoidable distraction. yet with all of these examples and the studies showing them to be even more common distractions to take place in our cars still the eye of the politicians is on something else. It should make one wonder how serious these lawmakers are about driving while distracted.
Much earlier in this discussion I posted a study listing the most common distractions. Cell phones was not number one. But if we even grant that cell phones could be a longer lasting distraction shouldn't someone somewhere now be addressing the distractions listed above cell phones? every morning if you commute to LA from the Burbs you will notice someone reading while driving. No ban or reading that I know of.
I've got a better - and ultimately more productive - idea. You learn the difference between raw numbers of fatalities and fatalities per 100 million miles driven, and which one is the accurate measure of highway safety. Then you won't make such errors in the future.
When comparing traffic fatalities over a long period - as I was doing - the fatalities per 100 million vehicle miles figure is used, as it accounts for increased number of vehicles on the road, and the increased number of miles those vehicles are driven.
So - yet again - you are wrong. That's strike one for today.
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Time to agree to disagree, move on, and get out of this traffic circle that we're stuck in.
One of the other things to consider is just like people can walk and chew gum, pat their head and rub their tummy, etc, there are times when the workload is low enough that the opportunity cost of task switching involved doesn't impact overall performance.
Driving in light traffic on a straight road in a modern car in good weather is pretty low workload. Driving in stop and go traffic or rush hour in poor weather or on a windy road is relatively high workload.
It has to do with "degree" or "extent" of distraction and the task at hand. As an example. Grabbing a cookie from an open container sitting in the center console with the right hand (and not looking at the console) and putting into mouth has to be a significantly less distraction to brain processing and driving than an ongoing conversation on the cell phone. I have done both in the past and can speak from my humble experience. I would think that chewing the cookie uses only a tiny amount of brain power, maybe none. To error on the safe side though, I would only grab a cookie if at stop light or on straight road with no opposing traffic or no vehicles around me.
On heater controls, I suppose that the old fashioned lever on the dash is best. I have it on one of my vehicles and I can regulate hot air in winter and cold air in summer. I can glance in an instant where the lever is to get my finger on it. Of course, I would not want to change the temperature while performing a pass on a 2-lane road, even though I realize I am losing only a minute part of my concentration vs the amount of concentration lost by someone being on a cell phone.
Regarding conversation in car - both wife and I practice "no conversation" in car at certain times over the years. Some examples (with either of us driving): fast and busy interstate driving, driving at legal and brisk speed on country back roads to enjoy pleasure of vehicle dynamics and driving experience, driving snow/icy roads.
It is degrees or extent of distraction. Each distraction is different in terms of how much brain power is needed to process I would submit. IMO, cell phone conversations use a great amount of brain power and take away that amount of brain processing capability from driving and concentration.
Can you drive and chew gum at same time? That is too easy. Gum chewing is a task with repititions that the brain can easily process vs thought processes in accepting voice data on cell phone and formulating responses.
Snake, I bet that you can't walk, chew gum, talk on the cell phone at the same time. And, not bump into anyone nor step on the sidewalk stress cracks nor get hit by a cab. You cannot do this successfully on a walk eastbound on Washington (sidewalk) starting at Northwestern Station at 5 PM on a normal business day and walking to Michigan Ave. And, the cell conversation has to be a "real" call with a client or customer discussing details. Can't be done.
Anyone have anything to add that we haven't heard yet?
I think back two weeks to the 5-6 inch snowfal from 10 am to 7 pm which left interstate 75 snow-covered and full of 3 lanesof 3-5 inch slush after they added salt. Lots of drivers were going along, too slowly and too fast, with cell phones to their ears. I was trying to get to Cincy to an ice skating event (no kidding) and people were on cell phones at 20 mph in left hand lane. My car was very stable at 35-40 and even faster. But they were preoccupied with their phone call but the weather conditions hadn't scared them enough to keep off the phone.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Well seeing that mechanically I have a choice chew or talk. not to mention that it is considered rude to talk with something in your mouth.
You cannot do this successfully on a walk eastbound on Washington (sidewalk) starting at Northwestern Station at 5 PM on a normal business day and walking to Michigan Ave. And, the cell conversation has to be a "real" call with a client or customer discussing details. Can't be done.
Been there done that multiple times. it can be done,
In college I had a math professor who would do two math problems on the blackboard at the same time. One using his right hand and one using his left hand and he would finish both at the same time in the same amount of time that most of us could do one.
I used to have a boss that could add two different columns of numbers at the same time using a seperate ten key in each hand. he would add both up as fast and as accurately as i could doing only one.
There is a country music start (either chet atkins or Roy Clark) that could play two songs at the same time on his guitar.
President Garfield would write in Greek in one hand and Latin with the other at the same time.
Don't tell me people cannot multi task. just because you can't walk and chew gum at the same time doesn't mean others can't.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D